How to cope with surgeons who are difficult to work with

Started by sky778
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sky778

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As the title stated - most surgeons at my job are pleasant to work with but there are like a select few who are difficult to work with. Im not talking about medical decisions per se (though for some cases their requests are unreasonable and unsafe) but just bad attitude in general aka rolling their eyes/shaking their head/giving orders like I’m their servants. And I’m not the only person in my group feeling about this about those particular individuals.

I did not feel that in residency perhaps its because its my attendings at the time were taking the heat not the residents.

I understand that we are expendable and just a “service” specialty but every time it happens it made my blood boil lol

Im sure this had been discussed before but how do you guys generally handle it? I was told that historically a lot of young anesthesiologist did not stay long term in my group and I wonder if it is this reason. But again I’m not sure if changing jobs will make a difference.
 
As the title stated - most surgeons at my job are pleasant to work with but there are like a select few who are difficult to work with. Im not talking about medical decisions per se (though for some cases their requests are unreasonable and unsafe) but just bad attitude in general aka rolling their eyes/shaking their head/giving orders like I’m their servants. And I’m not the only person in my group feeling about this about those particular individuals.

I did not feel that in residency perhaps its because its my attendings at the time were taking the heat not the residents.

I understand that we are expendable and just a “service” specialty but every time it happens it made my blood boil lol

Im sure this had been discussed before but how do you guys generally handle it? I was told that historically a lot of young anesthesiologist did not stay long term in my group and I wonder if it is this reason. But again I’m not sure if changing jobs will make a difference.
I think part of the answer is some personal work for you and why this bothers you. I feel the same way sometimes, but ultimately I can only control how I perceive and react to certain people.
 
I think part of the answer is some personal work for you and why this bothers you. I feel the same way sometimes, but ultimately I can only control how I perceive and react to certain people.
Like just get my pay check and let it go? I mean it bothers me if anyone talks to me like that but I get it its just the way it is. Knowing this situation is common for anesthesiologists gives me peace as I’m not the only one 😂
 
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Like just get my pay check and let it go? I mean it bothers me if anyone talks to me like that but I get it its just the way it is. Knowing this situation is common for anesthesiologists gives me peace as I’m not the only one 😂
I explore this in myself as a thought exercise sometimes. Like if someone flips me off in traffic, do I take it personally (and if I do, why)? If some crazy person on the street yells at me, does it upset me? Same as having some weird interpersonal interaction at work. If it upsets me, I try to pin down exactly why.

I have noticed this: a lot of times someone acts unprofessionally or is just a jerk, they usually have some other thing happening in their life that’s making them like that (divorce etc). If someone comes at me unnecessarily, I usually assume they have something going on.
 
I explore this in myself as a thought exercise sometimes. Like if someone flips me off in traffic, do I take it personally (and if I do, why)? If some crazy person on the street yells at me, does it upset me? Same as having some weird interpersonal interaction at work. If it upsets me, I try to pin down exactly why.

I have noticed this: a lot of times someone acts unprofessionally or is just a jerk, they usually have some other thing happening in their life that’s making them like that (divorce etc). If someone comes at me unnecessarily, I usually assume they have something going on.
I dont know man like this jerk of a surgeon in particular is your typical nerd of the nerds who never makes eye contact with anyone when walking in the hallway. I will just let it slide but I’m not sure what my limit is.
 
My take is there are 3 possibilities.

1 Tolerate and be quiet.
2 Give it back to them.
3 Refuse to work with them.

It’s an individual answer depending on your circumstances. Maybe it’s a big wig surgeon who brings a lot of volume. Maybe you are a big wig anesthesiologist yourself. Maybe the surgeon is just terrible and an easy prey for you. You probably know the lay of the land better than an outsider.

Reviewing my past I have chosen #2 for the most part. It depends greatly on your seniority in the group. I wouldn’t recommend you start there out of residency. Maybe you start in #1, then # 3 and finish in #2? Or any combination that works. It's up to you.

I have lost some coworkers due to this. After some history of people dropping off you can ask for hazard pay.
 
Don’t tolerate that. Watch them. When they throw in a 4.0 whatever say they should probably use a 3.0 instead. Relentlessly troll them. They will get the message.

Everyone is expendable and replaceable, including the surgeons. Don’t view anesthesia as a service specialty.

You are a consultant
Love the troll. But did you get the numbers backwards?

A 3.0 is bigger than a 4.0 needle. As far as i understand surgical skill hierarchy, using a smaller needle requires more skills.
 
My take is there are 3 possibilities.

1 Tolerate and be quiet.
2 Give it back to them.
3 Refuse to work with them.

It’s an individual answer depending on your circumstances. Maybe it’s a big wig surgeon who brings a lot of volume. Maybe you are a big wig anesthesiologist yourself. Maybe the surgeon is just terrible and an easy prey for you. You probably know the lay of the land better than an outsider.

Reviewing my past I have chosen #2 for the most part. It depends greatly on your seniority in the group. I wouldn’t recommend you start there out of residency. Maybe you start in #1, then # 3 and finish in #2? Or any combination that works. It's up to you.

I have lost some coworkers due to this. After some history of people dropping off you can ask for hazard pay.
Like your coworkers left voluntarily or they got fired?
 
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I was just wondering this myself. For me at this point in my career most of my stress isn’t from a sick patient or difficult case. It’s from social relationships like a surgeon being a dick or making unreasonable requests.

I find that we are more expendable than surgeons since they bring patients to the hospital. The hospital is more likely to accommodate their shortcomings. no penalties for them for being slow or showing up late frequently.
 
Don't get too attached to any one place. Don't get stuck on loyalty. There isnt any. The hospital is run by businessmen who sees you as a worker. They dont really care about anything other than making money. They do the same math with everyone really including surgeons. If you no longer make financial sense then you are gone. Think about all the committed, thoughtful anesthesiologists that get booted out when contract negotiations fail with their groups.

Anesthesiology market is perhaps the most in demand right now. Weve seen it with all the lucrative locum contracts out there. And it seems like every hospital is short of anesthesiologists. Be okay with voting with your feet. Know your worth. Know that hospitals want things to be just a small level above tolerable and that they are counting on your inertia to remain in one place. Know that when you leave it costs them tens of thousands of dollars to find your replacement. Dont tolerate bS. That is your true power. I did it when I left academics and it was great
 
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I mostly just let **** go and console myself that I make more than most of em for quarter the effort.
The wheel always turns and when its their turn ill stick the knife in the bad ones. Might have to wait years but ill wait... thankfully we dont have many and most appreciate me and my efforts after a few months. Only 1 dingus never did. Now hes having legal issues its my turn
 
merely looking at you weirdly and making you feel bad doesn’t mean anything. you need something objective that he did - like unprofessional conduct, interference in anesthesia, etc. this is what builds a case and it’s important that you object even if nothing comes out of it. you need to see if there’s a pattern of mistreatment.

the way i would handle it is via email - you can say that you refuse to cover his cases electively but you’d be glad to do so under emergency or special circumstances.

this isn’t the first or last time you’ll come across a difficult personality by the way. they’re everywhere and it has more to do with them than you…

just a few weeks ago, i was assigned at a new site and worked with a surgeon i had never heard of before and at 645 im about to roll back and do the block in OR for shoulder - he goes “why are we changing what we have been doing for 5 years?” meaning he wanted the block in preop. patient extremely nervous in preop and wants to go sleep [you know not everyone likes a 4 inch needle right next to their neck]…don’t know where the intralipid is…i opt for blocks in OR as we go to sleep whenever possible for variety of reason…including immediate monitoring. besides when, where, how the block is done is my call.

i wasn’t upset that he wanted the block in preop..i was upset the way he raised his voice in the middle of preop area and made me return to do the stupid block and waste time. this was a non issue but he acted petty. sure.

in return, the whole day i treated him like dust on my shoes…didn’t even look at him once…he got the hint…and he couldn’t say anything because all 8 of his patients were happy with their blocks (it was 1:2 medical direction).
let your work do the talking.
after the day was done i told the practice that assigned me there that do not assign me to work with that surgeon - they were disappointed but i cited the same reason. i only work with surgeons that i have a good friendly and collegial relationship with…we have each others back…

in your email you can cite liability issue saying that you cannot effectively or safely work with him. which is true - in case something bad happens, these are the people who will readily throw you under the bus first. you’d be surprised how often this happens and how quickly you’d be blamed for something you didn’t do or was very minor and not that cause from your side

send your chair an email; cc HR, Chief medical officer, and if you have balls - send it to him and his chair. cite specific reasons for your decision.

keep it light and non personal. no long emails. no explanation needed. say things like “not a good fit”, “likely to affect patient safety due to lack of professional relationship and poor environment”. cite one or two examples showing his poor conduct or in professionalism issues.

shame him. he’s not above you. you also went to medical school, no need to feel inferior or be timid.

you’ll see in 6 months every one will start respecting you because you respected yourself and defined your boundaries.

on the email, threaten to leave and say that you’ve already considered exploring other employment options. quietly start looking for other jobs. it’s very easy these days.

your anesthesia group will lose their mind and will take you seriously. last thing they want is to lose a good worker over nothing.

good luck
 
I was just wondering this myself. For me at this point in my career most of my stress isn’t from a sick patient or difficult case. It’s from social relationships like a surgeon being a dick or making unreasonable requests.

I find that we are more expendable than surgeons since they bring patients to the hospital. The hospital is more likely to accommodate their shortcomings. no penalties for them for being slow or showing up late frequently.
Your findings are not consistent with the reality of the market presently. Is your surgeon making $400/hr every hour of work? Can he do surgeries without anesthesiology services? You're only expendable because you make yourself expendable.

I would recommend you read a book, "So Good They Cant Ignore You" by Cal Newport.
 
As the title stated - most surgeons at my job are pleasant to work with but there are like a select few who are difficult to work with. Im not talking about medical decisions per se (though for some cases their requests are unreasonable and unsafe) but just bad attitude in general aka rolling their eyes/shaking their head/giving orders like I’m their servants. And I’m not the only person in my group feeling about this about those particular individuals.

I did not feel that in residency perhaps its because its my attendings at the time were taking the heat not the residents.

I understand that we are expendable and just a “service” specialty but every time it happens it made my blood boil lol

Im sure this had been discussed before but how do you guys generally handle it? I was told that historically a lot of young anesthesiologist did not stay long term in my group and I wonder if it is this reason. But again I’m not sure if changing jobs will make a difference.
wrong

it’s “service” first for the betterment of patient and moving their care forward.

not unlimited indentured servitude for the surgeons and admin.

I hate this bend over and take it attitude from anesthesiologists…
 
Your findings are not consistent with the reality of the market presently. Is your surgeon making $400/hr every hour of work? Can he do surgeries without anesthesiology services? You're only expendable because you make yourself expendable.

I would recommend you read a book, "So Good They Cant Ignore You" by Cal Newport.


Unfortunately hospital admins don’t see us that way. Even if we get paid more than them , they see us as replaceable with Crnas or another body since we don’t bring patients or revenue to the hospital. I would argue that hospital admins think we get paid too much making us more expendable since they incorrectly think that they could find a cheaper replacement for us. It happens all the time , the hospital admins kick out the old anesthesia group thinking they can change to supervision model or hire replacements for cheaper.

I have a good relationship with 90 percent of the surgeons. 10 percent of the surgeons are just miserable and difficult to work with regardless of your skill level. When I left my last job, A few of the surgeons actually complained to the ceo of the hospital that they need to raise my salary to keep me from leaving. Not sure why you need to be so aggressive in your post and make assumptions about me.
 
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Often, I think part of the problem is the limited environment in which we interact with the surgeons. We generally only see them in the OR, where they were traditionally taught that they are the kings and masters. At my last job, I often dealt with this less, because I also managed their patients in the ICU, so the surgeons quickly learned that I knew my **** and could bail them out.

In general, start with picking your battles. Don't fight over every dumb "request." Some things are just personal preferences that will have no real outcome difference one way or another. However, if it is truly unsafe or a bad idea, then don't do it, and have a defense. Remember, though, that "No" is a complete sentence.
 
Like just get my pay check and let it go? I mean it bothers me if anyone talks to me like that but I get it its just the way it is. Knowing this situation is common for anesthesiologists gives me peace as I’m not the only one 😂
dude…
it’s not just the way it is…you must be at a very toxic place…
it’s common but this is not how it’s commonly managed. ignoring and suppressing it will
result in an explosion one day - should learn to address things ongoing and manage conflict appropriately
 
merely looking at you weirdly and making you feel bad doesn’t mean anything. you need something objective that he did - like unprofessional conduct, interference in anesthesia, etc. this is what builds a case and it’s important that you object even if nothing comes out of it. you need to see if there’s a pattern of mistreatment.

the way i would handle it is via email - you can say that you refuse to cover his cases electively but you’d be glad to do so under emergency or special circumstances.

this isn’t the first or last time you’ll come across a difficult personality by the way. they’re everywhere and it has more to do with them than you…

just a few weeks ago, i was assigned at a new site and worked with a surgeon i had never heard of before and at 645 im about to roll back and do the block in OR for shoulder - he goes “why are we changing what we have been doing for 5 years?” meaning he wanted the block in preop. patient extremely nervous in preop and wants to go sleep [you know not everyone likes a 4 inch needle right next to their neck]…don’t know where the intralipid is…i opt for blocks in OR as we go to sleep whenever possible for variety of reason…including immediate monitoring. besides when, where, how the block is done is my call.

i wasn’t upset that he wanted the block in preop..i was upset the way he raised his voice in the middle of preop area and made me return to do the stupid block and waste time. this was a non issue but he acted petty. sure.

in return, the whole day i treated him like dust on my shoes…didn’t even look at him once…he got the hint…and he couldn’t say anything because all 8 of his patients were happy with their blocks (it was 1:2 medical direction).
let your work do the talking.
after the day was done i told the practice that assigned me there that do not assign me to work with that surgeon - they were disappointed but i cited the same reason. i only work with surgeons that i have a good friendly and collegial relationship with…we have each others back…

in your email you can cite liability issue saying that you cannot effectively or safely work with him. which is true - in case something bad happens, these are the people who will readily throw you under the bus first. you’d be surprised how often this happens and how quickly you’d be blamed for something you didn’t do or was very minor and not that cause from your side

send your chair an email; cc HR, Chief medical officer, and if you have balls - send it to him and his chair. cite specific reasons for your decision.

keep it light and non personal. no long emails. no explanation needed. say things like “not a good fit”, “likely to affect patient safety due to lack of professional relationship and poor environment”. cite one or two examples showing his poor conduct or in professionalism issues.

shame him. he’s not above you. you also went to medical school, no need to feel inferior or be timid.

you’ll see in 6 months every one will start respecting you because you respected yourself and defined your boundaries.

on the email, threaten to leave and say that you’ve already considered exploring other employment options. quietly start looking for other jobs. it’s very easy these days.

your anesthesia group will lose their mind and will take you seriously. last thing they want is to lose a good worker over nothing.

good luck
Appreciate the response! 100% agree with you
 
dude…
it’s not just the way it is…you must be at a very toxic place…
it’s common but this is not how it’s commonly managed. ignoring and suppressing it will
result in an explosion one day - should learn to address things ongoing and manage conflict appropriately
If it keeps up I will let him know. My bs tolerance is pretty low so I will deal with it. Thanks man.
 
wrong

it’s “service” first for the betterment of patient and moving their care forward.

not unlimited indentured servitude for the surgeons and admin.

I hate this bend over and take it attitude from anesthesiologists…
Unfortunately it is the general view of the group- “make the surgery possible, collect your pay check and be quiet”. Perhaps its time to find a new job in the future.
 
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It’s the entire OR culture. We’ve had a couple surgeons like that pass through. They mistreat everyone, nurses, ERdocs, scrub techs, consultants. Even other surgeons know who’s the a**hole. They get talked to by the chief of surgery. The ones who don’t shape up don’t last and move on.
 
Be super nice and awesome to the surgeons you like (or tolerate better than your colleagues), so they request you more often, and you can stay away from those that don’t bring you joy. Granted this won’t work well in certain reimbursement models, but it is an option.
 
Unfortunately it is the general view of the group- “make the surgery possible, collect your pay check and be quiet”. Perhaps its time to find a new job in the future.
the practice seems dysfunctional and/or CRNA run/ managed.
 
Unfortunately hospital admins don’t see us that way. Even if we get paid more than them , they see us as replaceable with Crnas or another body since we don’t bring patients or revenue to the hospital. I would argue that hospital admins think we get paid too much making us more expendable since they incorrectly think that they could find a cheaper replacement for us. It happens all the time , the hospital admins kick out the old anesthesia group thinking they can change to supervision model or hire replacements for cheaper.

I have a good relationship with 90 percent of the surgeons. 10 percent of the surgeons are just miserable and difficult to work with regardless of your skill level. When I left my last job, A few of the surgeons actually complained to the ceo of the hospital that they need to raise my salary to keep me from leaving. Not sure why you need to be so aggressive in your post and make assumptions about me.

The question you should be asking is how do you see yourself?
I dont care what admin thinks about my pay. Dont like it? Tough luck. Want to replace me? Go ahead, I got 20 other jobs waiting.
 
My take is there are 3 possibilities.

1 Tolerate and be quiet.
2 Give it back to them.
3 Refuse to work with them.

It’s an individual answer depending on your circumstances. Maybe it’s a big wig surgeon who brings a lot of volume. Maybe you are a big wig anesthesiologist yourself. Maybe the surgeon is just terrible and an easy prey for you. You probably know the lay of the land better than an outsider.

Reviewing my past I have chosen #2 for the most part. It depends greatly on your seniority in the group. I wouldn’t recommend you start there out of residency. Maybe you start in #1, then # 3 and finish in #2? Or any combination that works. It's up to you.

I have lost some coworkers due to this. After some history of people dropping off you can ask for hazard pay.
Never ever choose Number #1.
People will give you all sorts of political reasons to choose Number #1, "Be the bigger person," "Don't burn any bridges," "He can really cause a lot of problems for you," blah blah blah. We're anesthesiologists, we'll never wonder where our next food or mortgage bill payment is coming from which would be the only reason to choose Number #1.

Don't ever sell out your self respect. Not for your job, not for a girl, not for convenience, etc.
 
I was just wondering this myself. For me at this point in my career most of my stress isn’t from a sick patient or difficult case. It’s from social relationships like a surgeon being a dick or making unreasonable requests.

I find that we are more expendable than surgeons since they bring patients to the hospital. The hospital is more likely to accommodate their shortcomings. no penalties for them for being slow or showing up late frequently.
Very true. Non medical people had no clue what I meant when I'd say the high stress of the ER and the OR didn't come from the difficult cases.

My last full time job was a highly toxic academic center. After leaving I never ever again would take a full time job. Leaving all of your eggs in one basket left me feeling trapped like I had to walk on egg shells or be out of work.

I'm in a big enough city and went and got privileges at every ambulatory and office based setting in need. I never stressed a bad work environment again. I simply wouldn't go back to the places that didn't meet my low stress happy atmosphere requirement.

If you have 15 places you occasionally randomly fill in at you'll find a decent number you really like and will try to do the bulk of your work there. The total pay was significantly less, but I'm financially ok and low maintenance, and peace of mind doesn't have a price.

And the really bonus, I stopped dreading going into work knowing I don't have to put up with ANY toxicity ever.
 
Sounds like a weak group in general. You aren't going to change the OR culture.

All you can do is simply make that one particular surgeon afraid of you. The very first time they try to mess with you, you bark back. That's the only way. Don't tolerate BS. They only treat people like s*** because those people allow themselves to be treated like s***. Once you bark back, it won't happen again. I've had to do it with a number of surgeons in my career. It always ends there. Sure, you might yourself develop a reputation for being an a**hole, but that's not a bad thing in our line of work. I'd much rather be an a**shole than a pushover. I have no idea if any particular surgeon has asked to not work with me again. My group would ignore the request anyways, and I would never hear about it.
 
Never ever choose Number #1.
People will give you all sorts of political reasons to choose Number #1, "Be the bigger person," "Don't burn any bridges," "He can really cause a lot of problems for you," blah blah blah. We're anesthesiologists, we'll never wonder where our next food or mortgage bill payment is coming from which would be the only reason to choose Number #1.

Don't ever sell out your self respect. Not for your job, not for a girl, not for convenience, etc.
100%
 
Hard to say without knowing more. This is unpopular to say in anesthesia circles, but sometimes I think surgeons may be right to be annoyed at certain things, so first evaluate if you're the problem somehow, by making a big deal about things that aren't a big deal, etc.

Assuming it's indeed as you say, which certainly happens, my approach is usually not to confront minor rudeness, but just smile or chuckle, if they're reaching too far to try to be rude. That usually bothers them more than acting miffed.

If they cross the line to passive aggressive eyerolls or annoyed tone to actually criticizing my anesthetic plan and I don't think it's a reasonable criticism, I confidently tell them why I disagree.

I've never had anything be more of a problem than above, but if I did, I'd take full lunch breaks between cases, prioritize other surgeons ahead of them in call hours (when not inappropriate from a patient care perspective) and overall stop doing anything extra to make their life convenient. I would also just read a book or something instead of trying to interact with them. I can be professional and we can just ignore each other but work together if we don't like each other.

If that wasn't sufficient, I would refuse to work with them.
 
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Next to their Ferrari?
Only surgeons I have seen flex better cars are ortho and neuro. They can have their cars because I can actually drive mine and not waste 100 hours a week in the hospital.

Reality is surgeons will treat you with respect if they respect you. Figure the rest out from there
Flip it around. I will treat surgeons with respect if they respect me.
Like I'm their dog looking for approval? Pass. You do your job, I'll do mine.
Exactly. Courtesy is given, respect is earned.
 
Don’t take any ****.
This gets easier the further you are in your career.

One thing I’ll add that we’ve noticed is the PP surgeons we used to have mostly all used to thank us at the end of the case. Now that we have a lot of (lesser skilled) academic surgeons employed by the hospital that happens significantly less often. More of an attitude that we are a needed service to be tolerated rather than a teammate on the case. Not with all but def a much higher percentage. The academic attitude is…interesting.
 
Don’t take any ****.
This gets easier the further you are in your career.

One thing I’ll add that we’ve noticed is the PP surgeons we used to have mostly all used to thank us at the end of the case. Now that we have a lot of (lesser skilled) academic surgeons employed by the hospital that happens significantly less often. More of an attitude that we are a needed service to be tolerated rather than a teammate on the case. Not with all but def a much higher percentage. The academic attitude is…interesting.
100% agree with this comparison of PP vs. academic. Though the exception is often the total joint PP ortho bros.