How to diplomatically tell one of my friends they have no chance at med school.....

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cantankerous

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One of my friends really wants to become a doctor, but I don't think she has a chance (ORM, 3.2ish GPA in her junior year at a low ranked university, little to no ECs).

She comes from a low SES (and for some reason her family refuses to apply for gov't aid. Real shady, I know.), so she doesn't have much option to push back applying for 2 years, which I assume would be how long she would need to get an app together.

I just don't want her to waste her money on MCAT stuff (books, classes, tests).
I don't mean to come off condescending, but nobody I know has been able to give me a good answer haha.
 
Is there a pre-med adviser at her alma mater that she can speak to? I would direct her to him or her, if possible.
 
wagonwheel23 said:
Is there a pre-med adviser at her alma mater that she can speak to? I would direct her to him or her, if possible.
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They're awful. They were like "Oh, you PASSED intro biology. You're on track!" without the sarcastic tone you probs read that in.
 
She does have a shot at DO. There are free prep resources online for the MCAT (@mcatjelly has some stuff over at reddit). URM or disadvantaged status could also help with app consideration.

Really, the only reason why she wouldn't be capable of applying was if the rest of her application is shoddy or her motivation to pursue medicine is ridiculously naive. Send her over to SDN if you're not capable of actively improving her situation.
 
cantankerous said:
One of my friends really wants to become a doctor, but I don't think she has a chance (ORM, 3.2ish GPA in her junior year at a low ranked university, little to no ECs).

She comes from a low SES (and for some reason her family refuses to apply for gov't aid. Real shady, I know.), so she doesn't have much option to push back applying for 2 years, which I assume would be how long she would need to get an app together.

I just don't want her to waste her money on MCAT stuff (books, classes, tests).
I don't mean to come off condescending, but nobody I know has been able to give me a good answer haha.
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I dont see why you're laughing , this makes me question how sincere you are about going about this... If I was you I wouldnt mention it because its none of your business. If you want to help her show her the Grid of MCAT and GPA that is successful and show her what she needs to do to fulfill her dreams .. If that doesnt work introduce her to SDN we crush dreams every 2 threads ..
 
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I don't know, how close are you?
I mean, cause you will come off as cruel or worse,someone who just wants to hurt her.
I mean, is she applying md or do?
remember she is also ses disadvantegd and may have struggles you have never known.
You could always introduce her to sdn and she can figure it out for herself.
 
Doug Underhill said:
It's not your place to tell her. If she really wants to apply, wish her the best of luck and be aware on the inside that she probably won't succeed.
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Not even that, he doesnt have to try and be fake, he can voice to her that she isnt in the strongest position and use the GPA/MCAT grid to back it up and as a good friend will try and help her out .. Work with her or just be a open ear to listen to her. Dont try and crush her dreams just be supportive ..
 
Im sorry if I sound condescending now . BUT come on man!! You dont need SDN for this. You want to be a physician , these small social issues should be easily navigated or im missing something
 
Just tell her she doesn't have a shot. If she's got what it takes then she'll definitely get in.



My pre-med adviser saying I should think about PA school instead gave me all the incentive I needed to crush the MCAT, do a short post-bacc, and get the experiences I needed.
 
cantankerous said:
She comes from a low SES (and for some reason her family refuses to apply for gov't aid. Real shady, I know.), so she doesn't have much option to push back applying for 2 years, which I assume would be how long she would need to get an app together.
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She can apply for Americorp, Peace Corp, Teach for America, etc. which helps a lot of applicants. Or she could get a clinical job, or paid research position. If she won't check out SDN, then see if a dean from the local medical school can sit down with her to let her know what she is lacking.
I didn't think one of my friends had a chance either, but she is sitting in our state med school as we speak. Either help her or ignore it.
 
Chelsea FC said:
Im sorry if I sound condescending now . BUT come on man!! You dont need SDN for this. You want to be a physician , these small social issues should be easily navigated or im missing something
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There's just a lot of other things like I don't think she'll have the academic work ethic to be able to survive medical school. She finally decided on medicine after reading about Doctors Without Borders but doesn't have much related experience (serving underserved, international type volunteering, etc.). She's a good friend, but I won't ignore her negatives.

I know it's a small issue, and the answer is pretty obvious. I want to help her, but I just have a feeling that it just won't happen. I don't want her to go through all this and end up with nothing tangible (and no I don't think "character development" is worth all this time and money).
 
cantankerous said:
One of my friends really wants to become a doctor, but I don't think she has a chance (ORM, 3.2ish GPA in her junior year at a low ranked university, little to no ECs).
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I had exactly a 3.2 with 60 hours, and I did okay......when I clicked on this I expected a senior with a 1.5 or something. It can be done, not easily, but nobody really gets into med school easily.
 
cantankerous said:
There's just a lot of other things like I don't think she'll have the academic work ethic to be able to survive medical school. She finally decided on medicine after reading about Doctors Without Borders but doesn't have much related experience (serving underserved, international type volunteering, etc.). She's a good friend, but I won't ignore her negatives.

I know it's a small issue, and the answer is pretty obvious. I want to help her, but I just have a feeling that it just won't happen. I don't want her to go through all this and end up with nothing tangible (and no I don't think "character development" is worth all this time and money).
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Just direct her to SDN and we will help her. Do not discourage her from doing what she wants. That is one of the worst things you can do as a friend
 
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It's weird reading this as someone who has similar stats to the friend in question. (Rising senior: 21 y/o white F, also low SES, oGPA 3.29, but a lot of ECs).

If she's willing to apply to the new MD schools and DO schools-with a solid MCAT, she could have a shot. Is she trying for this cycle? Or the next one?

I'm applying next cycle- I had to take a year off because of really screwy family issues. If you think she'd be more open to someone who's wearing similar shoes, I'd be willing to talk to her on here. 🙂

But, if I were you, I'd tell her how you really feel. Something like, "Hey, I want you to do what you love. You should know that there's some things that could really help you when it comes to applying for a medical school seat- you may want to bolster your GPA/really nail the MCAT/etc."
 
You be honest and help them improve on their goals, not give non-constructive feedback of "you have no chance." Bad ECs? Explain to them what they should have and how to get them. Low GPA? Explain to them the importance of raising it... If she doesn't listen to you, then that's her business and fault and her failures, after you trying to help her, are of nothing to you.
 
I've seen friends go to medical school against all odds. You might think she has no chance, but ultimately, it's not your place to tell her it's impossible - it might not be. Point her to resources you'd find helpful as a premed. That will help her make an informed decision on pursuing medicine.
 
If I were you, I'd support my friend through the process, whether they decide to go for it or not. You're a resource - you can help tutor for classes, MCAT, guide her on what ECs to start looking into, help her find someone to shadow, etc. I've done this for plenty of my friends.
 
Tell her that the median GPA score for acceptees at MD schools is 3.7 and she's below the 10th %ile. Therefore, it's not in her best interests now. She may have some chances at DO schools if she applies broadly.

I do suggest that she take MCAT now (or, at least, when she's ready), and then she can focus on a SMP to do GPA repair.

Or get her a SDN account.

cantankerous said:
One of my friends really wants to become a doctor, but I don't think she has a chance (ORM, 3.2ish GPA in her junior year at a low ranked university, little to no ECs).

She comes from a low SES (and for some reason her family refuses to apply for gov't aid. Real shady, I know.), so she doesn't have much option to push back applying for 2 years, which I assume would be how long she would need to get an app together.

I just don't want her to waste her money on MCAT stuff (books, classes, tests).
I don't mean to come off condescending, but nobody I know has been able to give me a good answer haha.
Click to expand...
 
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Goro said:
Tell her that the median MCAT score for acceptees at MD schools is 3.7 and she's below the 10th %ile. Therefore, it's not in her best interests now. She may have some chances at DO schools if she applies broadly.

I do suggest that she take MCAT now (or, at least, when she's ready), and then she can focus on a SMP to do GPA repair.

Or get her a SDN account.
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I'm guessing you meant GPA, or listed 3.7 instead of an MCAT score :prof: But I have a very similar friend. Low GPA ~3.3ish, scored in about the 20th percentile on the new MCAT with few EC's. Instead of dissuading him I tried to push him in the right direction by showing him average stats of those accepted to try to light a little fire under him to get going.
 
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Fixed!!

:kiss:
Pastamahn said:
I'm guessing you meant GPA, or listed 3.7 instead of an MCAT score :prof: But I have a very similar friend. Low GPA ~3.3ish, scored in about the 20th percentile with few EC's. Instead of dissuading him I tried to push him in the right direction by showing him average stats of those accepted to try to light a little fire under him to get going.
Click to expand...
 
There are three types of pre-meds. Successful pre-meds that get into medical school, successful pre-meds that didn't get into medical school, and failed pre-meds that didn't get into medical school. You read that correctly, this is not a typo.

The successful pre-meds that don't get into medical school realize early on (at least by sophomore year) that they can't hack it, drop all pre-med stuff, pick a relevant major, and are able to move on with their lives.

Unfortunately, more pre-meds than not put all of their eggs into one basket and focus their whole college existence on getting into medical school will fall very hard if it doesn't work out. I know two people know working entry-level clinics jobs, which someone with a high school diploma can do, years after college. It's because they had soft science majors, did very poorly in the classes, and then didn't do what was needed to get into the business world or something else that would pay a reasonable amount.

I'm kind of surprised at the responses here... I noticed that people are quick to tell a struggling IMG that they should quit while they are ahead, but then it's rude to tell that to a pre-med. I think it would be VERY beneficial to do this with pre-meds who have no chance. It's sad to see them end up with a lot of debt and crappy jobs. If they dropped it by sophomore year and picked up a business major, they can save their future. Not everyone can go to medical school, and it's better to find that out way sooner when you can actually change the course of your life, versus when it's too late and you're already screwed.
 
Also, many people I know who fit the bill of OP's friend are extremely stubborn (part of the reason why they find themselves in this situation) and would not respond to any sort of dissuasion. For me, it's better to try to help than be unsuccessful trying to turn them away from their medical school aspirations.
 
Planes2Doc said:
I'm kind of surprised at the responses here... I noticed that people are quick to tell a struggling IMG that they should quit while they are ahead, but then it's rude to tell that to a pre-med. I think it would be VERY beneficial to do this with pre-meds who have no chance. It's sad to see them end up with a lot of debt and crappy jobs. If they dropped it by sophomore year and picked up a business major, they can save their future. Not everyone can go to medical school, and it's better to find that out way sooner when you can actually change the course of your life, versus when it's too late and you're already screwed.
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A lot of that sentiment is because we can't relate as much with the IMG, I think. There's less of a capacity to empathize with them over a pre-med because most of us here have been a pre-med before. Nobody wants to be the negative Nancy when it's someone like them.

It's not just limited to pre-meds, either. I know a pre-pharm who's probably going to graduate this year with a 2.5 (our institution does grade replacement for GPA purposes, but the original attempt(s) will still be on the transcript) and is awful at standardized testing (her words, not mine). I tried to have a nice but frank "come to Jesus" meeting about it when she failed Orgo the first time, which was our sophomore year back when we were friends. She failed it again and then got a C the third time.

I'd have a lot more sympathy for her if she wasn't so outright nasty to me (even before our discussion about how the previous attempts will be on her transcript), and frankly she fixates so much on how things are "unfair" that she doesn't even consider owning up to the fact that she failed because she did not meet class expectations and spent her time bitching and studying ineffectively instead of talking with professors and going to the review lectures.
 
I would frame the discussion around "here is what you will need to do to get into medical school." Explain what she needs to do as far as ECs. Tell her what she'll need to get on the MCAT and what achieving the score will require. Tell her that even if it's too late to pull her GPA up to the median, she needs to start getting As NOW to show a positive trend.

You an do this politely and in a way that comes across as advice rather than nay-saying. With a clear picture of the road ahead, she'll be able to make her own decision about how/whether to proceed.
 
tenblackalps said:
Patients also value forthright doctors
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OP as a doctor: You have an A1C of 11. You have no chance of getting to 6.5 (# recommended by the ADA) given your past history. You will likely die early of a diabetic complication. It's better to accept this rather than live in denial.

How OP should be: Your A1C is 11. It's going to be a challenge and you may not ever get it low enough to completely eliminate your risk of complications due to diabetes, but here's some things that you can do to lower that number and decrease (not eliminate) your risk of diabetic complications...
 
cantankerous said:
There's just a lot of other things like I don't think she'll have the academic work ethic to be able to survive medical school. She finally decided on medicine after reading about Doctors Without Borders but doesn't have much related experience (serving underserved, international type volunteering, etc.). She's a good friend, but I won't ignore her negatives.

I know it's a small issue, and the answer is pretty obvious. I want to help her, but I just have a feeling that it just won't happen. I don't want her to go through all this and end up with nothing tangible (and no I don't think "character development" is worth all this time and money).
Click to expand...
Why is this any of your business?
 
xffan624 said:
OP as a doctor: You have an A1C of 11. You have no chance of getting to 6.5 (# recommended by the ADA) given your past history. You will likely die early of a diabetic complication. It's better to accept this rather than live in denial.

How OP should be: Your A1C is 11. It's going to be a challenge and you may not ever get it low enough to completely eliminate your risk of complications due to diabetes, but here's some things that you can do to lower that number and decrease (not eliminate) your risk of diabetic complications...
Click to expand...

It's different though. If a patient is already in poor health and A1C, you can only deal with the cards that you are already given. Yes, I like the response to number two. Have the patient do the best they can to decrease their number and improve their quality of life. However, if you see a freshman or sophomore that is struggling immensely and will not be able to get into medical school. Then isn't it better to stop it earlier than later (and the person can pick up a business major or something that can lead to a good job), rather than having that person try to piece their life together after the fact (I wouldn't consider being stuck working an entry-level clinical job years after graduating college "successful") when it was all avoidable in the first place?
 
Jesus Christ A1C should not be discussed in this thread. This is painful to read.

Quit being a nosey pre-med and mind your own business.

End thread.
 
Planes2Doc said:
It's different though. If a patient is already in poor health and A1C, you can only deal with the cards that you are already given. Yes, I like the response to number two. Have the patient do the best they can to decrease their number and improve their quality of life. However, if you see a freshman or sophomore that is struggling immensely and will not be able to get into medical school. Then isn't it better to stop it earlier than later (and the person can pick up a business major or something that can lead to a good job), rather than having that person try to piece their life together after the fact (I wouldn't consider being stuck working an entry-level clinical job years after graduating college "successful") when it was all avoidable in the first place?
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I will say, I would probably be someone that should have been told I had no shot a medical school in undergrad. 3.3 gpa, 2.99 sGPA. Guess where I am now? Despite what my undergraduate grades would have predicted, I'm doing fine there. And no, I didn't waste 5 years of my life trying to get in to medical school. I did other things (graduate school, military) that I wanted to do, that at the same time, would help a medical school application (and help pay for it). At the time, I wasn't sure if I was going to make the attempt again, but I did, and I'm happy I did.

It's an individual choice that each person has to make. One person did flat out tell me that I had no chance at medical school (ever), I took great satisfaction in e-mailing them when I got in.

Either way, OP should not discourage his/her "friend" at this point, only redirect towards the right path, if that's actually what they want to do. If said friend is not ready to apply and wants to apply, that's the time to say "hey it's time to reconsider an application at this time, you're not really ready for it"
 
This is not a definitive case. Help her out or leave her alone.
 
Are you talking about yourself? Because I would not want to be your friend - you sound kind of judgmental.

I know 3.2 people who got into MD schools. DO - she's fine - assuming her MCAT comes out ok.

cantankerous said:
One of my friends really wants to become a doctor, but I don't think she has a chance (ORM, 3.2ish GPA in her junior year at a low ranked university, little to no ECs).

She comes from a low SES (and for some reason her family refuses to apply for gov't aid. Real shady, I know.), so she doesn't have much option to push back applying for 2 years, which I assume would be how long she would need to get an app together.

I just don't want her to waste her money on MCAT stuff (books, classes, tests).
I don't mean to come off condescending, but nobody I know has been able to give me a good answer haha.
Click to expand...
 
cantankerous said:
One of my friends really wants to become a doctor, but I don't think she has a chance (ORM, 3.2ish GPA in her junior year at a low ranked university, little to no ECs).

She comes from a low SES (and for some reason her family refuses to apply for gov't aid. Real shady, I know.), so she doesn't have much option to push back applying for 2 years, which I assume would be how long she would need to get an app together.

I just don't want her to waste her money on MCAT stuff (books, classes, tests).
I don't mean to come off condescending, but nobody I know has been able to give me a good answer haha.
Click to expand...
one of my pet peeves is how friends like you are trying to look for ways to drop support on your friend's dream. There is far worse of a position that person could be for you to assume position in breaking their dreams like that. First of all, that person needs to look into DO schools. This is possibly the better path for them and the most realistic. You should listen and support that person when they are down or cribbing about money...not saying 'yea I'm going to be honest bud but you have no chances'. Plus, with low ses, that person has some support already with amcas fee assistance service.
Believe it or not, applying to medical school is either meant for the ones with well-off family support or those that support themselves well. Any person outside of this group is usually left in miserable position.
 
cantankerous said:
One of my friends really wants to become a doctor, but I don't think she has a chance (ORM, 3.2ish GPA in her junior year at a low ranked university, little to no ECs).

She comes from a low SES (and for some reason her family refuses to apply for gov't aid. Real shady, I know.), so she doesn't have much option to push back applying for 2 years, which I assume would be how long she would need to get an app together.

I just don't want her to waste her money on MCAT stuff (books, classes, tests).
I don't mean to come off condescending, but nobody I know has been able to give me a good answer haha.
Click to expand...

...gotta mind your own business.
 
Maybe you shouldn't be such a pretentious **** friend? Who are you to say she has no chance? She was a 3.2 not a 2.2, she could be competitive for DO school if she had some guidance instead of some "friend" calling her shady and coming from a "low ranked university".

I'm coming from a very low ranked university and I have an interview invite at a top 10 school right now - so clearly that isn't all that important.
 
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