How to distinguish between Low and Mid Tier Schools?

[burbbs]

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Specifically speaking, how do you determine whether a school is low tier or middle tier?

Obviously Harvard and Yale are high tier, but when we look at just regular state schools or private schools, how do we know whether they are low or middle tier?


I know its a pretty subjective question but if asked "Is your school low or middle tier?", how do you answer and how do you categorize them?

 

[Snowdon48]

Below top tier nobody really distinguishes. MD is MD





....unless of course you go DO

 

[Chip N Sawbones]

If I'm going there, it's mid-tier, possibly upper-tier. If I'm not, it's lower-tier. Since nobody has ever asked me my school rank and I don't expect anyone ever will, I can assign any rating I want to my school and use any method I want to justify my decision. My method of rating schools based on the lunches they served at interview day is no more arbitrary than the one US News uses to determine rankings.

 

[serendipity007]

If I'm going there, it's mid-tier, possibly upper-tier. If I'm not, it's lower-tier. Since nobody has ever asked me my school rank and I don't expect anyone ever will, I can assign any rating I want to my school and use any method I want to justify my decision. My method of rating schools based on the lunches they served at interview day is no more arbitrary than the one US News uses to determine rankings.

👍

 

[Catalystik]

I know its a pretty subjective question but if asked "Is your school low or middle tier?", how do you answer and how do you categorize them?

Who would be so crass as to ask such a question?

 

[iceman55]

Middle-tier = all other allopathic med schools outside of the top tier.

Lower tier= all DOs

 

[Anathema]

I only judge based on the median GPA/MCAT

If its Median GPA is higher than a 3.8 and its MCAT is higher than a 33 then it's high-tier
If its Median GPA is between 3.65-3.8 and its MCAT is between 30-34 then it's mid-tier.
If its Median GPA is below 3.65 and its MCAT is 31 or below it's low-tier

That's my personal view on it.

 

[darkjedi]

Who would be so crass as to ask such a question?

tiger parents

 

[Long Way to Go]

tiger parents

Those parents separate people into "Harvard" and "failure", so I'm pretty sure you're fine.

 

[jr93]

I only judge based on the median GPA/MCAT

If its Median GPA is higher than a 3.8 and its MCAT is higher than a 33 then it's high-tier
If its Median GPA is between 3.65-3.8 and its MCAT is between 30-34 then it's mid-tier.
If its Median GPA is below 3.65 and its MCAT is 31 or below it's low-tier

That's my personal view on it.

Below 31 is low-tier? I hope you get into med school (I hope everyone does) and you realize how off this is when some kid with a 29 and 3.4 is killing you on tests. The only name on the degree that matters is your own if you go to any US MD school.

 

[Doctor Strange]

Below 31 is low-tier? I hope you get into med school (I hope everyone does) and you realize how off this is when some kid with a 29 and 3.4 is killing you on tests. The only name on the degree that matters is your own if you go to any US MD school.

Poster isn't judging the quality of the student, they're judging the supposed quality of the school (this is a thread about "tiers" after all). There's a subtle difference.

 

[dahassa]

Specifically speaking, how do you determine whether a school is low tier or middle tier?

Obviously Harvard and Yale are high tier, but when we look at just regular state schools or private schools, how do we know whether they are low or middle tier?


I know its a pretty subjective question but if asked "Is your school low or middle tier?", how do you answer and how do you categorize them?

I don't think there really is a distinction between low/middle tier and I would imagine most people wouldn't care. But if I had to give my own subjective view:

Top Tier: Harvard, Hopkins, Columbia, ect. Basically the top 10-20 schools.

Middle Tier: Almost all other medical schools

Low Tier: The only schools I would personally put in this category are schools that are unable to provide students the same opportunities that most other medical schools would. For example, if compared to most medical schools, the particular school doesn't provide adequate research opportunities, clinical training, and so on then it would be low tier. I wouldn't place my medical school as being low tier unless I felt it was missing something that 90% of all other medical schools provide.

 

[jr93]

Poster isn't judging the quality of the student, they're judging the supposed quality of the school (this is a thread about "tiers" after all). There's a subtle difference.

My point is that 31 is not a low score and to think that somehow a median score of 31 is low tier is crazy. I guess you'd have to clarify matriculated or accepted though. I completely ignore accepted stats though so maybe that's where our disconnect is. The MCAT is a weighted score so just by doing the math, the thought that 31 and below is low tier is kinda of crazy. Good interview skills and a 30 can get you into a ton of schools in this country.

 

[Anathema]

Below 31 is low-tier? I hope you get into med school (I hope everyone does) and you realize how off this is when some kid with a 29 and 3.4 is killing you on tests. The only name on the degree that matters is your own if you go to any US MD school.

Calm down. I'm basing it on the idea that the median matriculant is a 3.7/32 so anything above or below that can be a tier. I have no doubt students can make a change from their UG GPA, I was just saying if there is a tier system that would be the one I would use. I'm personally applying to most mid tier and low tier with a reach or two that's high tier. I don't have an extreme bias against something, but I will if they're accepting a super below average GPA/MCAT student body

 

[Anathema]

My point is that 31 is not a low score and to think that somehow a median score of 31 is low tier is crazy. I guess you'd have to clarify matriculated or accepted though. I completely ignore accepted stats though so maybe that's where our disconnect is. The MCAT is a weighted score so just by doing the math, the thought that 31 and below is low tier is kinda of crazy. Good interview skills and a 30 can get you into a ton of schools in this country.

My bad I meant to type in below 30 for low tier .

 

[DaenarysDuhh]

Just an idea, but I would categorize high- mid- and low- tier schools based on your fitness for those schools as an applicant. Compare their average MCAT and gpas to yours, make a big list, and anything that is too far above is high tier for you, anything right around your scores is mid, and anything below is low. I feel like this is the most practical way to think about it because it helps you figure out how to apply - it doesn't matter what the world thinks mid-tier schools are because if the scores there are above your average scores then they are high-tier for you.

On that note, I agree with what most have said that if you go to a top 10-20 school, there might be some high tier advantages like more resources/$$ and better residency matching (maybe!). But otherwise you will be splitting hairs to choose between the rest of the schools and it will be all personal preference.

 

[alerk323]

My point is that 31 is not a low score and to think that somehow a median score of 31 is low tier is crazy. I guess you'd have to clarify matriculated or accepted though. I completely ignore accepted stats though so maybe that's where our disconnect is. The MCAT is a weighted score so just by doing the math, the thought that 31 and below is low tier is kinda of crazy. Good interview skills and a 30 can get you into a ton of schools in this country.

http://www.washington.edu/uaa/advising/downloads/gpamcat.pdf

whether you like it or not, 30 and 31 are the lowest means med schools even have, so naturally they'd be low tier if that was the only way you were looking at it.

 

[jr93]

http://www.washington.edu/uaa/advising/downloads/gpamcat.pdf

whether you like it or not, 30 and 31 are the lowest means med schools even have, so naturally they'd be low tier if that was the only way you were looking at it.

You're kind of supporting my statement with that document. I saw lots of 10's and under which is a 30. This means there are decent number of people at or just below 30 that are getting in. You gotta have a 27 to offset the 33's that get in to average 30. And like I said, it's a weighted test so the numbers just don't work. I don't have the exact numbers right now but I think a 31 puts you in the top ~15% or around there. When you factor in the numbers that don't even apply because of low scores, it's not possible for a 31 to be low tier. Also, the document says right on it that it is for accepted and not matriculated so the numbers mean nothing. Accepted data is bogus and has very little to do with anything. If anything, it just tells you that certain schools take fewer people off of waitlists which gives them prestige I guess if that matters to you. In my opinion, there are no tiers at all but I'm just here to argue the math on this one. I've argued tiers/prestige vs. others enough times.

 

[circulus vitios]

It's pretty easy. Basically you look at US News rankings and draw an imaginary line at some arbitrary place.

 

[alerk323]

You're kind of supporting my statement with that document. I saw lots of 10's and under which is a 30. This means there are decent number of people at or just below 30 that are getting in. You gotta have a 27 to offset the 33's that get in to average 30. And like I said, it's a weighted test so the numbers just don't work. I don't have the exact numbers right now but I think a 31 puts you in the top ~15% or around there. When you factor in the numbers that don't even apply because of low scores, it's not possible for a 31 to be low tier. Also, the document says right on it that it is for accepted and not matriculated so the numbers mean nothing. Accepted data is bogus and has very little to do with anything. If anything, it just tells you that certain schools take fewer people off of waitlists which gives them prestige I guess if that matters to you. In my opinion, there are no tiers at all but I'm just here to argue the math on this one. I've argued tiers/prestige vs. others enough times.

Not sure what you're arguing... the original statement you disagreed with was that schools with a mean mcat of 31 is a "low tier" school. Which it is if you are just using MCAT, as 30 and 31 are the lowest means that schools have. Of course there are individual students with lower mcats who get in... what does that have to do with anything...

Take all the schools on that list, list them in descending order by mcat. Top 33% is high tier, middle 33% is middle tier, bottom 33% is low tier... argument over

 

[circulus vitios]

http://www.washington.edu/uaa/advising/downloads/gpamcat.pdf

whether you like it or not, 30 and 31 are the lowest means med schools even have, so naturally they'd be low tier if that was the only way you were looking at it.

That data is old. Newer MD schools have lower medians for accepted students. The Commonwealth Medical College has a 29 and Cooper Rowan has a 30. Just about every DO school is at or below 29.

 

[jr93]

Not sure what you're arguing... the original statement you disagreed with was that schools with a mean mcat of 31 is a "low tier" school. Which it is if you are just using MCAT, as 30 and 31 are the lowest means that schools have. Of course there are individual students with lower mcats who get in... what does that have to do with anything...

Take all the schools on that list, list them in descending order by mcat. Top 33% is high tier, middle 33% is middle tier, bottom 33% is low tier... argument over

Negative. That's not how it works. Also, like I said, it's accepted data so it's bogus. Everyone accepts the kid with the 42 but they only matriculate once. These numbers are meaningless.

 

[HriRish]

Specifically speaking, how do you determine whether a school is low tier or middle tier?

Obviously Harvard and Yale are high tier, but when we look at just regular state schools or private schools, how do we know whether they are low or middle tier?


I know its a pretty subjective question but if asked "Is your school low or middle tier?", how do you answer and how do you categorize them?

No one cares. As long as its allopathic and in the continental USA, no one gives a ****.

 

[Anathema]

Negative. That's not how it works. Also, like I said, it's accepted data so it's bogus. Everyone accepts the kid with the 42 but they only matriculate once. These numbers are meaningless.

Why are the numbers meaningless? You have to accepted to get accepted before you choose to matriculate somewhere right? That kid with the 42 will take up someone's spot regardless.

 

[jr93]

Why are the numbers meaningless? You have to accepted to get accepted before you choose to matriculate somewhere right? That kid with the 42 will take up someone's spot regardless.

Seriously? I hate to sound condescending but you should understand this easily if you plan on being in med school. Say you have 10 kids and 10 available slots for the sake of easy calculating. One school will take 5 kids and the other will take 5 kids. The MCAT scores are:

40, 36, 35, 33, 32, 31, 30, 30, 28, 28

Both schools accept the top 5 scores and waitlist the next 5. If those top 5 kids all go to the "better" school, it doesn't really matter that the other school also accepted them because the bottom 5 will end up matriculating but they'll still factor those top 5 in their accepted average. Obviously this is a generic situation and can't be extrapolated but I'm just proving a point. At the same time, it could be even worse because those two kids with the 40 and 36 might get accepted to 10 schools and they'll all say they accepted someone with a 40 but one of those schools might end up with their highest matriculant score being 33 and a low of 26 or 27 so who cares that they accepted the 40.

 

[alerk323]

Seriously? I hate to sound condescending but you should understand this easily if you plan on being in med school. Say you have 10 kids and 10 available slots for the sake of easy calculating. One school will take 5 kids and the other will take 5 kids. The MCAT scores are:

40, 36, 35, 33, 32, 31, 30, 30, 28, 28

Both schools accept the top 5 scores and waitlist the next 5. If those top 5 kids all go to the "better" school, it doesn't really matter that the other school also accepted them because the bottom 5 will end up matriculating but they'll still factor those top 5 in their accepted average. Obviously this is a generic situation and can't be extrapolated but I'm just proving a point. At the same time, it could be even worse because those two kids with the 40 and 36 might get accepted to 10 schools and they'll all say they accepted someone with a 40 but one of those schools might end up with their highest matriculant score being 33 and a low of 26 or 27 so who cares that they accepted the 40.

ah now we're talking,

Two things:

1) the 40 mcat people will, generally speaking, apply much more frequently to "top and middle tier" schools, thus the relative medians/means will still hold up even just for accepted students data.

2) compounding this, is the fact that if anything, the reported means and medians for accepted students is actually higher in general, than the matriculated, so it is even MORE likely that a 31 or lower for matriculated students is a good measure for "bottom 30% of med schools."

also your example is terrible because it assumes an equal distribution of scores for all schools and this is just not the case at all: This goes back to point 1 (relative means are accurate)

 

[jr93]

ah now we're talking,

Two things:

1) the 40 mcat people will, generally speaking, apply much more frequently to "top and middle tier" schools, thus the relative medians/means will still hold up even just for accepted students data.

2) compounding this, is the fact that if anything, the reported means and medians for accepted students is actually higher in general, than the matriculated, so it is even MORE likely that a 31 or lower for matriculated students is a good measure for "bottom 30% of med schools."

also your example is terrible because it assumes an equal distribution of scores for all schools and this is just not the case at all: This goes back to point 1 (relative means are accurate)

Kids with high MCAT's apply to their local state school as well as numerous safety schools or else they are not smart. And you're going to have to clarify your point 2. It makes no sense to me. You're going to have a hard time convincing me that overlapping data ever gives good results. You have no way of knowing where each and every kid wants to go. Plenty of kids with a 36 always wanted to go to their little school in Oklahoma, South Dakota, North Dakota, Alabama, an HBCU, or wherever. Some will shoot for what you guys call top tier. There is no way to know except to wait until kids matriculate and then see who matriculated over the course of 10 years or so to see a trend. And then, all that says is that certain schools have a certain average score, not that the school is better than a school with a lower average score. The comparison I always use is that Morehouse and Emory kids do 3rd and 4th years side by side at a good hospital (Grady) yet people think Emory is a top tier and Morehouse is bottom of the barrel. How is that possible if MS1 and 2 are essentially self study and 3 and 4 are nearly identical. Tiers are pointless and Emory and Morehouse kids each get MD's with similar experiences.

 

[alerk323]

Kids with high MCAT's apply to their local state school as well as numerous safety schools or else they are not smart. And you're going to have to clarify your point 2. It makes no sense to me. You're going to have a hard time convincing me that overlapping data ever gives good results. You have no way of knowing where each and every kid wants to go. Plenty of kids with a 36 always wanted to go to their little school in Oklahoma, South Dakota, North Dakota, Alabama, an HBCU, or wherever. Some will shoot for what you guys call top tier. There is no way to know except to wait until kids matriculate and then see who matriculated over the course of 10 years or so to see a trend. And then, all that says is that certain schools have a certain average score, not that the school is better than a school with a lower average score. The comparison I always use is that Morehouse and Emory kids do 3rd and 4th years side by side at a good hospital (Grady) yet people think Emory is a top tier and Morehouse is bottom of the barrel. How is that possible if MS1 and 2 are essentially self study and 3 and 4 are nearly identical. Tiers are pointless and Emory and Morehouse kids each get MD's with similar experiences.

oh I completely agree that this conversation has nothing to do with the quality of ones medical education. If anything, it's just about competitiveness between schools and we've only picked one metric, mcat, to decide that, which is probably a bad method in general. All we were saying is that if you want to tier schools by mcat, then the ones with a mean of 31 (maybe 30) would be the low tier ones just based on the distribution. Like you said in an earlier post, it's just arguing the math.

 

[Mjolner]

it's pretty easy. Basically you look at us news rankings and draw an imaginary line at some arbitrary place.

+1

 

[jr93]

oh I completely agree that this conversation has nothing to do with the quality of ones medical education. If anything, it's just about competitiveness between schools and we've only picked one metric, mcat, to decide that, which is probably a bad method in general. All we were saying is that if you want to tier schools by mcat, then the ones with a mean of 31 (maybe 30) would be the low tier ones just based on the distribution. Like you said in an earlier post, it's just arguing the math.

MCAT alone may be bad to look at on its own but it's certainly a great equalizer. And I still maintain that 30 or 31 and below being considered low tier is ridiculous. How can an average of all schools be a cutoff for low tier especially when you aren't using matriculant data and almost all schools have an accepted average around 29 to 31. The discussion was about the difference between low and mid-tier. Based on my previous comments, I obviously don't think there is a difference between the bottom and top in US med schools but even if I go along with it, I can't agree on the 30 or 31 number as being low tier. I bet a lot of people with 29's and 30's are glad that kids with 31's and 32's don't apply to a crap load of "low tier" schools because they think they can't get in anywhere else.

 

[tennisguitar]

Categorizing medical schools into tiers is absurd. From what I have gathered, for other fields like law or business, it means something, but medicine is simply one area where your reputation as a physician is based nearly exclusively on your present performance. If in an academic setting, the last place with which you were affiliated, i.e. residency, fellowship, staff, might have some bearing on your opportunities, but overall, your patients and colleagues often neither know which school you attended nor care.

 

[sinombre]

Below top tier nobody really distinguishes. MD is MD

yup.

 

[911 Turbo]

Specifically speaking, how do you determine whether a school is low tier or middle tier?

Obviously Harvard and Yale are high tier, but when we look at just regular state schools or private schools, how do we know whether they are low or middle tier?


I know its a pretty subjective question but if asked "Is your school low or middle tier?", how do you answer and how do you categorize them?

what you do is you go to the bars on a friday night and tell different girls that you go to different medical school. you then ask them for their number


low tier = 10% of girls give you their number
middle tier = 30% of girls give you their number
upper tier = 80% of girls give you their number


srs

 

[jr93]

what you do is you go to the bars on a friday night and tell different girls that you go to different medical school. you then ask them for their number


low tier = 10% of girls give you their number
middle tier = 30% of girls give you their number
upper tier = 80% of girls give you their number


srs

That's about as accurate as USNWR. How many people honestly know school ranks anyway outside of SDN pre-med nerds? Most people outside the east coast can't even name more than 3 Ivy league schools and the people that have already gotten into med school all know how pointless ranks are.

 

[metview]

Top tier: 1-25
Mid tier: 30-50
Low tier: 55-unranked

 

[Mornhavon]

.

 

[alerk323]

MCAT alone may be bad to look at on its own but it's certainly a great equalizer. And I still maintain that 30 or 31 and below being considered low tier is ridiculous. How can an average of all schools be a cutoff for low tier especially when you aren't using matriculant data and almost all schools have an accepted average around 29 to 31. The discussion was about the difference between low and mid-tier. Based on my previous comments, I obviously don't think there is a difference between the bottom and top in US med schools but even if I go along with it, I can't agree on the 30 or 31 number as being low tier. I bet a lot of people with 29's and 30's are glad that kids with 31's and 32's don't apply to a crap load of "low tier" schools because they think they can't get in anywhere else.

You don't have to like it, but if your school has an average accepted (yes, accepted) mcat of 30 (I'l concede the 31) then your school is in the bottom 30% based on this completely arbitrary way of deciding what a low tier school is.

 

[AxiomaticTruth]

Name dropping any school to a non-premed will not get you laid.

Who invited the joke killer?

 

[AxiomaticTruth]

Preempting any unnecessary grief when some M1 goes to a bar in Boston and is shot down. Or in Baltimore and is just shot.

Lmao I would honestly pay to see this; I already paid once over Netflix
[YOUTUBE]ymsHLkB8u3s[/YOUTUBE]

 

[rudziutki]

Lmao I would honestly pay to see this; I already paid once over Netflix

The douche in that video would probably ace a medical school interview.

 

[iave9963]

The douche in that video would probably ace a medical school interview.

👍

 

[music2doc]

You don't have to like it, but if your school has an average accepted (yes, accepted) mcat of 30 (I'l concede the 31) then your school is in the bottom 30% based on this completely arbitrary way of deciding what a low tier school is.

You do realize your flawed approach, yes? Matriculant averages would work here IF MCAT and GPA actually correlated perfectly with competitiveness (they don't). However, a better metric would be a weighted scoring system utilizing Matriculant scores and DIFFERENCE between Matriculant and Accepted MCAT and GPA values. The difference (whether negative or positive) gives some rough indication of just how much of a difference the school's desires are from what they actually get. Above about a balanced 27 MCAT, the literature shows there is actually very little evidence for increased success of the students. As a result, schools tend to look at other things. Any school working on super high MCAT/GPA isn't really working to get the best students, IMO.

As for "low tier" schools, I would probably look to USNWR for an arbitrary list. Another fairly arbitrary way of looking at it would be NIH funding or by degrees and arbitrary criteria about the schools (i.e., DO programs, PR MD programs, and all programs less than 10 years old are "low tier" until they prove otherwise).

 

[alerk323]

You do realize your flawed approach, yes? Matriculant averages would work here IF MCAT and GPA actually correlated perfectly with competitiveness (they don't). However, a better metric would be a weighted scoring system utilizing Matriculant scores and DIFFERENCE between Matriculant and Accepted MCAT and GPA values. The difference (whether negative or positive) gives some rough indication of just how much of a difference the school's desires are from what they actually get. Above about a balanced 27 MCAT, the literature shows there is actually very little evidence for increased success of the students. As a result, schools tend to look at other things. Any school working on super high MCAT/GPA isn't really working to get the best students, IMO.

As for "low tier" schools, I would probably look to USNWR for an arbitrary list. Another fairly arbitrary way of looking at it would be NIH funding or by degrees and arbitrary criteria about the schools (i.e., DO programs, PR MD programs, and all programs less than 10 years old are "low tier" until they prove otherwise).

I certainly do not think that they correlate "perfectly" but I think they correlate pretty highly, what reasons do you have for thinking otherwise? If gpa and mcat did not correlate with competitiveness, then someone with a 31 mcat would have an equal chance at a school with an average accepted mcat of 35 and a school with an average of a 30, this is obviously not the case.

The bolded above in your post is ridiculous. Anything over a 27 "doesn't increase the success of a students application," do you really believe that? If you just look at the relative success rates of a 27 mcat and a 33 mcat and the difference is abundantly clear,

Finally, if anything, the accepted average will be HIGHER than the matriculated average at (almost every, maybe all) schools. This is because the 35+ mcaters will be accepted to many schools, while only matriculating at one (thus their high mcat will boost the accepted averages of many schools while only boosting the matriculated average of one school). This phenomenon would be less true for low mcats because those guys are only being accepted to 1 or 2 schools (at least fewer than the high mcaters).

Just to say it again, this is a conversation about the math and has essentially nothing to do with how "good" these schools are, its just fun to talk about.

 

[mcloaf]

I certainly do not think that they correlate "perfectly" but I think they correlate pretty highly, what reasons do you have for thinking otherwise? If gpa and mcat did not correlate with competitiveness, then someone with a 31 mcat would have an equal chance at a school with an average accepted mcat of 35 and a school with an average of a 30, this is obviously not the case.

The bolded above in your post is ridiculous. Anything over a 27 "doesn't increase the success of a students application," do you really believe that? If you just look at the relative success rates of a 27 mcat and a 33 mcat and the difference is abundantly clear,

Finally, if anything, the accepted average will be HIGHER than the matriculated average at (almost every, maybe all) schools. This is because the 35+ mcaters will be accepted to many schools, while only matriculating at one (thus their high mcat will boost the accepted averages of many schools while only boosting the matriculated average of one school). This phenomenon would be less true for low mcats because those guys are only being accepted to 1 or 2 schools (at least fewer than the high mcaters).

Just to say it again, this is a conversation about the math and has essentially nothing to do with how "good" these schools are, its just fun to talk about.

In so far as you're upset about the part you bolded, I believe he's referring to prediction of success as a medical student rather than as an applicant.

 

[Epinephreus]

Top tier: 1-25
Mid tier: 30-50
Low tier: 55-unranked

 

[sinombre]

Preempting any unnecessary grief when some M1 goes to a bar in Boston and is shot down. Or in Baltimore and is just shot.

hahaha... I literally lol'd

 

[music2doc]

I certainly do not think that they correlate "perfectly" but I think they correlate pretty highly, what reasons do you have for thinking otherwise? If gpa and mcat did not correlate with competitiveness, then someone with a 31 mcat would have an equal chance at a school with an average accepted mcat of 35 and a school with an average of a 30, this is obviously not the case.

That depends upon the schools in question. OHSU had an average of about 31 when I applied. It was much tougher to get into than was SLU, which had an average of 32.

The bolded above in your post is ridiculous. Anything over a 27 "doesn't increase the success of a students application," do you really believe that? If you just look at the relative success rates of a 27 mcat and a 33 mcat and the difference is abundantly clear,

Where did I ever talk about a student's application? You are clearly thinking in a very short-sighted manner. If you want to understand Admissions, you need to look further ahead than the end of the Admissions cycle. Their job isn't just to get students to apply to their school, nor is it just to get the students who will make their Admissions numbers look good for the next year's applicants.

Finally, if anything, the accepted average will be HIGHER than the matriculated average at (almost every, maybe all) schools. This is because the 35+ mcaters will be accepted to many schools, while only matriculating at one (thus their high mcat will boost the accepted averages of many schools while only boosting the matriculated average of one school). This phenomenon would be less true for low mcats because those guys are only being accepted to 1 or 2 schools (at least fewer than the high mcaters).

Which was why I made the statement I did....

Just to say it again, this is a conversation about the math and has essentially nothing to do with how "good" these schools are, its just fun to talk about.

By its nature, talking about "tiers" implies a ranking of how "good" schools are.

 

[jr93]

I certainly do not think that they correlate "perfectly" but I think they correlate pretty highly, what reasons do you have for thinking otherwise? If gpa and mcat did not correlate with competitiveness, then someone with a 31 mcat would have an equal chance at a school with an average accepted mcat of 35 and a school with an average of a 30, this is obviously not the case.

The bolded above in your post is ridiculous. Anything over a 27 "doesn't increase the success of a students application," do you really believe that? If you just look at the relative success rates of a 27 mcat and a 33 mcat and the difference is abundantly clear,

Finally, if anything, the accepted average will be HIGHER than the matriculated average at (almost every, maybe all) schools. This is because the 35+ mcaters will be accepted to many schools, while only matriculating at one (thus their high mcat will boost the accepted averages of many schools while only boosting the matriculated average of one school). This phenomenon would be less true for low mcats because those guys are only being accepted to 1 or 2 schools (at least fewer than the high mcaters).

Just to say it again, this is a conversation about the math and has essentially nothing to do with how "good" these schools are, its just fun to talk about.

No kidding. That's what we've been saying. Obviously when they go to the waitlist, those are going to be lower score kids. That's why accepted rates are arbitrary and I don't know why you keep bringing them up. If you have a class of 100 and 50 of them come from the waitlist, who cares about the 50 that dropped their acceptance. The fact that you're rating schools based on that number confuses me.

 

[alerk323]

That depends upon the schools in question. OHSU had an average of about 31 when I applied. It was much tougher to get into than was SLU, which had an average of 32.

haha based on your anecdotal n=1? regardless, of course there are other factors that affect competitiveness. Average accepted gpa, state residency considerations, size of applicant pool all are important but if you look at a list of all the average mcats and go down the list, it still is a good measure, generally speaking, of competitiveness regardless of which school you specifically ended up having "an easier time with".

Where did I ever talk about a student's application? You are clearly thinking in a very short-sighted manner. If you want to understand Admissions, you need to look further ahead than the end of the Admissions cycle. Their job isn't just to get students to apply to their school, nor is it just to get the students who will make their Admissions numbers look good for the next year's applicants.

Ah ok i see the problem, you don't quite understand the nature of this little academic debate (i guess you came late to the party so its fair). This conversation has nothing to do with a students relative success later in their career, I made zero statements regarding that. A simple statement was made: If one were to break up all medical schools into 3 categories, low, mid, and high tier, using ONLY mcat, then a 31 average accepted mcat would mark the beginning of the "low tier" segment. I eventually conceded that 30 is probably more accurate.

Besides, if you actually talk with some admins, they say very clearly that gpa+mcat trumps all regardless of how "short sighted" you believe that to be...

By its nature, talking about "tiers" implies a ranking of how "good" schools are.

Yes, agreed, it certainly implies that, which is why I explicitly stated over and over again that I am NOT talking about how good the schools are... see the above simple statement

 

[HopefulSlav]

Top tier= schools that accept you

Low tier= schools that didn't accept you