How to fill out RACE on application

[Radon XP]

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Of course universal health care will help but we need more URM physicians who understand the issues facing the URM population and are willing to work with under-served populations. It has been shown in studies that Black patients trust Black doctors more than White doctors and I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case with other races as well. Like many things in life, we tend to trust people who have similar experiences/values as ourselves. Anyway, not to generalize too much but having more Black doctors, amongst other things, is an absolute necessity if we want to start tackling the issues facing Black Americans and their health.

This kind of thinking perpetuates racism.

 

[RocknRhoLim]

This kind of thinking perpetuates racism.

LOL that is simply ridiculous and you need a reality check if you think diversity isn't important and 'who care about admitting blacks to med school.' Absolutely ludicrous.

 

[SunsFun]

Fair enough. I was just contending with the LCME's recommendations



Here's the problem with that: why would you assume that a school is discriminating based on race based on their admissions? If you're going strictly by-the-numbers, it may well turn out that a disproportionate number of whites are admitted compared to blacks. So be it. Why is that a problem?



Racial diversity contributes very little to anything. I'm a minority myself (an extreme minority: Assyrian-Chaldean), and yet my presence anywhere doesn't "add" to the vitality of the place. Why would it matter if there are more black people at a school if you aren't a racist?

Racial diversity is important in that it allows patients to be treated by physician who understand them better, or at least make patients feel more at ease. Quality of care for URM population is impacted by the race of they physician.

Also, I think you are missing a point that others are trying to make here. Nobody is arguing that SES is a huge factor i how easy it is for someone to get to the point at which he or she is able to apply to medical school. A rich kid with physician parents on average has much easier time jumping through these hurdles relative to a poor farmer. Now, the race is a second compounding factor. When two people from similar SES "make it" in life, URMs on average had to jump through higher hurdles than ORMS due to some inherent biased and stereotypes. Some of these stereotypes are expressed by others. Quite often, though, society teaches minorities that they are not good at math/science and that they should be settling for less. These low expectations have huge subconscious impact even if the person realizes that these stereotypes are false.

 

[Radon XP]

LOL that is simply ridiculous and you need a reality check if you think diversity isn't important and 'who care about admitting blacks to med school.' Absolutely ludicrous.

Diversity shouldn't be an end in itself.

Admitting great students should be the end and goal of medical schools. As long as we pretend that belonging to a certain race makes one different, we perpetuate the thought that races are different and therefore we perpetuate racism.

 

[RocknRhoLim]

Diversity shouldn't be an end in itself.

Admitting great students should be the end and goal of medical schools. As long as we pretend that belonging to a certain race makes one different, we perpetuate the thought that races are different and therefore we perpetuate racism.

That is great and all but that does not reflect society. We live in a society that relies very much on racial constructs and racism is a huge issue even today. Look at the varied responses to the Trayvon Martin case; you have many angry people who say race was an issue and then you have lots of people who completely disagree. In a perfect world, race wouldn't be an issue but we do not live in utopia.

 

[ChemEngMD]

Diversity shouldn't be an end in itself.

Admitting great students should be the end and goal of medical schools. As long as we pretend that belonging to a certain race makes one different, we perpetuate the thought that races are different and therefore we perpetuate racism.

INCORRECT.

As long as one race continues to disproportionately control the government, small and large companies and be the key access point to things as important as health, safety, and money then racism will continue to perpetuate.

Sociological definition of racism:

Some sociologists have defined racism as a system of group privilege. In Portraits of White Racism, David Wellman has defined racism as “culturally sanctioned beliefs, which, regardless of intentions involved, defend the advantages whites have because of the subordinated position of racial minorities”

 

[Radon XP]

INCORRECT.

As long as one race continues to disproportionately control the government, small and large companies and be the key access point to things as important as health, safety, and money then racism will continue to perpetuate.

Like I said, this kind of thought is inherently racist. Why do you care so much about the race of those in power, unless they care about your race? And if they do, then they are racist and should be removed from office...but that doesn't mean adding more blacks to government is the solution (nor is it bad; it should be irrelevant).

Some sociologists have defined racism as a system of group privilege. In Portraits of White Racism, David Wellman has defined racism as “culturally sanctioned beliefs, which, regardless of intentions involved, defend the advantages whites have because of the subordinated position of racial minorities”

So now only whites can be racist?

You brahs aren't getting it.

 

[NickMD2017]

Diversity shouldn't be an end in itself.

Admitting great students should be the end and goal of medical schools. As long as we pretend that belonging to a certain race makes one different, we perpetuate the thought that races are different and therefore we perpetuate racism.

Are you so dumb that you think race gets you admitted to medical school?

Personally I'm more impressed by a URM applicant with a 3.3GPA 28MCAT than a white applicant with a 3.6GPA 30MCAT. Why? Not because I think URMs are less intelligent, but most URMs are raised in a family that doesn't value education.
Maybe a family member went to college but had a bad experience with racism in the workplace. or maybe none of the parents went to college. maybe they were raised by a single mother, as is common. Those children don't have a lot of positive role models. It's easy for those kids to look up to the drug dealers because they have nice things and are popular in the neighborhood.
I think any URM raised in such an environment and wants to be a doctor needs to be applauded. and "lower" stats shouldn't keep them from becoming a doctor because a doctor is just as much about CHARACTER as it is BRAINS.

 

[RocknRhoLim]

Radon you have such a simplistic perspective on this when it is a complex issue.

 

[RocknRhoLim]

Also, we aren't brah's. Just no.

 

[Radon XP]

Are you so dumb that you think race gets you admitted to medical school?

Personally I'm more impressed by a URM applicant with a 3.3GPA 28MCAT than a white applicant with a 3.6GPA 30MCAT. Why? Not because I think URMs are less intelligent, but most URMs are raised in a family that doesn't value education.
Maybe a family member went to college but had a bad experience with racism in the workplace. or maybe none of the parents went to college. maybe they were raised by a single mother, as is common. Those children don't have a lot of positive role models. It's easy for those kids to look up to the drug dealers because they have nice things and are popular in the neighborhood.
I think any URM raised in such an environment and wants to be a doctor needs to be applauded. and "lower" stats shouldn't keep them from becoming a doctor because a doctor is just as much about CHARACTER as it is BRAINS.

You completely missed the point where I said SES matters. What you described is 99% SES.

I'm more impressed with a poor white applicant who is first-generation to go to college with those stats than a rich Ivy Leaguer black.

RocknRhoLim, we are brahs. Everybody is a brah.

 

[ChemEngMD]

Like I said, this kind of thought is inherently racist. Why do you care so much about the race of those in power, unless they care about your race? And if they do, then they are racist and should be removed from office...but that doesn't mean adding more blacks to government is the solution (nor is it bad; it should be irrelevant).


So now only whites can be racist?

You brahs aren't getting it.

According to many schools of thought only the people in power who control the society and thus create the social construct known as race are able to truly be racists, because in order to exhibit racism and have it actually mean anything, a group must be in power and keep that power from another group they deem as subservient. If this was a country lead by all blacks then they for sure could be racist against whites. The Han Chinese are quite racist against other ethnicities in China because they have the power.

You have obviously taken very few sociology or race relations classes or read books on the subject. The rich white aristocracy in this country in the 1600s created the social construct of race in order to keep themselves in power. You can't simply discount 100s of years of uplifting one group of people and pushing down another.

Living your life as a rich White person and a poor White person can be very, very different because SES dictates how society views them. Rich and poor minorities all suffer racism the same, regardless of how many zeroes are in their bank accounts or what letters come after their names.

 

[RocknRhoLim]

You completely missed the point where I said SES matters. What you described is 99% SES.

I'm more impressed with a poor white applicant who is first-generation to go to college with those stats than a rich Ivy Leaguer black.

RocknRhoLim, we are brahs. Everybody is a brah.

 

[Radon XP]

According to many schools of thought only the people in power who control the society and thus create the social construct known as race are able to truly be racists, because in order to exhibit racism and have it actually mean anything, a group must be in power and keep that power from another group they deem as subservient. If this was a country lead by all blacks then they for sure could be racist against whites. The Han Chinese are quite racist against other ethnicities in China because they have the power.

You have obviously taken very few sociology or race relations classes or read books on the subject. The rich white aristocracy in this country in the 1600s created the social construct of race in order to keep themselves in power. You can't simply discount 100s of years of uplifting one group of people and pushing down another.

Living your life as a rich White person and a poor White person can be very, very different because SES dictates how society views them. Rich and poor minorities all suffer racism the same, regardless of how many zeroes are in their bank accounts or what letters come after their names.

See, I agree with almost everything you said, and yet you still want race to be acknowledged and racial discrimination perpetuated.

BTW, I have taken courses on the subject and read books about it too (the most important of which being the New Jim Crow by Michelle Alexander). Also, you'll forgive me if I have less sympathy for rich blacks than I do for working-class whites and blacks.

Class is a more important factor TO ME.

 

[NickMD2017]

You completely missed the point where I said SES matters. What you described is 99% SES.

I'm more impressed with a poor white applicant who is first-generation to go to college with those stats than a rich Ivy Leaguer black.

RocknRhoLim, we are brahs. Everybody is a brah.

I do think SES matters..
But a lot of URMs that come from immigrant or just poor families don't have any connections.
Nowadays, being poor is more common among Whites, but culturally the kids are raised to value education and have some family members that can serve as mentors.

 

[Radon XP]

I do think SES matters..
But a lot of URMs that come from immigrant or just poor families don't have any connections.
Nowadays, being poor is more common among Whites, but culturally the kids are raised to value education and have some family members that can serve as mentors.

I think we can agree on this. But this whole debate has been about whites and blacks. What about Arabs (I know they are "white" but the darker ones will face discrimination). Poor Arabs will not get any advantage in med school admissions and yet, undoubtedly, get discriminated against (usually because they are assumed to be Muslim).

 

[GoPelicans]

According to many schools of thought only the people in power who control the society and thus create the social construct known as race are able to truly be racists, because in order to exhibit racism and have it actually mean anything, a group must be in power and keep that power from another group they deem as subservient.

To stir the SES vs race pot:

MD admissions should give an advantage to kids of non-educated parents if this is the case. Highly educated individuals control the social construct of higher education. Kids of parents who did not navigate academia do know know well enough to be filling up on EC's to make a more favorable application - many of those kids are working after school to help with household expenses. They also don't have somebody at home setting a positive example of academic success. Highly educated individuals stay in power and keep that power from another group.

 

[Radon XP]

To stir the SES vs race pot:

MD admissions should give an advantage to kids of non-educated parents if this is the case. Highly educated individuals control the social construct know as higher education. Kids of parents who did not navigate academia do know know well enough to be filling up on EC's to make a more favorable application - many of those kids are working after school to help with household expenses. They also don't have somebody at home setting a positive example of academic success. Highly educated individuals stay in power and keep that power from another group.

👍

 

[RocknRhoLim]

I think we can agree on this. But this whole debate has been about whites and blacks. What about Arabs (I know they are "white" but the darker ones will face discrimination). Poor Arabs will not get any advantage in med school admissions and yet, undoubtedly, get discriminated against (usually because they are assumed to be Muslim).

We don't have a lack of Arabs in the physician work force. In fact I believe they are overrepresented. There isn't a dire need to have more like there is a need for URM physicians.

 

[Radon XP]

We don't have a lack of Arabs in the physician work force. In fact I believe they are overrepresented. There isn't a dire need to have more like there is a need for URM physicians.

So you're basically saying SCREW YOU despite the fact that their situations are the same. It's just a numbers game. Now you bring up "need", even though you were just talking about how AA is necessary in order to give a helping hand to such applicants.

Whites are URM, too.

http://www.ama-assn.org//ama/pub/ab...tatistics/total-physicians-raceethnicity.page

54% of all physicians; ~ 72 % of Americans.

 

[GoPelicans]

.

 

[RocknRhoLim]

So you're basically saying SCREW YOU despite the fact that their situations are the same. It's just a numbers game.

Whites are URM, too.

http://www.ama-assn.org//ama/pub/ab...tatistics/total-physicians-raceethnicity.page

54% of all physicians; ~ 72 % of Americans.

Nope never said that. Work on sharpening your critical reading skills. Arabs should not be considered URM and they aren't because there are NOT under-represented. And your example with Whites is a FAIL because there are misrepresentations all over, i.e. way more Asians in medicine than in the population. On the other hand, the percentage of URM physicians is grossly below what it should be.

 

[Radon XP]

Make up your minds: is Affirmative Action in medical school admissions necessary in order to give a helping hand to URM applicants, or in order to increase their numbers as a percentage of total physician population? If it is the former, then it is unfair that you should deny other applicants who suffer similar problems simply based on membership or lack thereof in a particular group; if the latter, I should seriously question the fairness and necessity of that approach.

 

[RocknRhoLim]

Make up your minds: is Affirmative Action in medical school admissions necessary in order to give a helping hand to URM applicants, or in order to increase their numbers as a percentage of total physician population? If it is the former, then it is unfair that you should deny other applicants who suffer similar problems simply based on membership or lack thereof in a particular group; if the latter, I should seriously question the fairness and necessity of that approach.

 

[ChemEngMD]

double post

 

[ChemEngMD]

To stir the SES vs race pot:

MD admissions should give an advantage to kids of non-educated parents if this is the case. Highly educated individuals control the social construct of higher education. Kids of parents who did not navigate academia do know know well enough to be filling up on EC's to make a more favorable application - many of those kids are working after school to help with household expenses. They also don't have somebody at home setting a positive example of academic success. Highly educated individuals stay in power and keep that power from another group.

Good point, but do you realize that even at similar educational backgrounds, Blacks have much lower wealth? The average wealth of a middle class Black family is usually on par with that of a working class white family, regardless of education, because things that accrue wealth such as property, stocks, and bonds were for all intents and purposes kept out of the hands of minorities.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/january_february_2013/features/a_house_divided042051.php

http://www.marketplace.org/topics/wealth-poverty/wealth-gap-grows-between-black-and-white-us

So, even if you're an educated, higher income Black family, you often have less total wealth than someone of a lower SES who is White.

Things aren't as simple as people are trying to make them out to be.

 

[Radon XP]

Good point, but do you realize that even at similar educational backgrounds, Blacks have much lower wealth? The average wealth of a middle class Black family is usually on par with that of a working class white family, regardless of education, because things that accrue wealth such as property, stocks, and bonds were for all intents and purposes kept out of the hands of minorities.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/january_february_2013/features/a_house_divided042051.php

http://www.marketplace.org/topics/wealth-poverty/wealth-gap-grows-between-black-and-white-us

So, even if you're an educated, higher income Black family, you often have less total wealth than someone of a lower SES who is White.

Things aren't as simple as people are trying to make them out to be.

Okay. So why don't poor Arabs, Asians, Indians, etc, who do face discrimination, not get a boost in admissions? I thought you wanted to help out those who have faced discrimination and hardship?

 

[ChemEngMD]

Okay. So why don't poor Arabs, Asians, Indians, etc, who do face discrimination, not get a boost in admissions? I thought you wanted to help out those who have faced discrimination and hardship?

I don't have a problem with them getting that and guess what...in some cases THEY DO. University of Colorado considers Vietnamese applicants URM even though they're Asian because they recognize that not every Asian ethnicity has the same background. It's about filling physician needs in specific communities and increasing the cultural sensitivity of physicians who are being trained right now.

Who is most likely to work in inner city Newark as a physician? Probably the Black or Latino physician, regardless of upbringing, it's a sense of duty. Look at Cory Booker, the mayor of Newark. Born in the 'burbs, went to Stanford and Harvard and where did he go to serve the public? Newark. He went to the hood because that's where he knew he could make the greatest impact and help out the people he cared about and felt a duty to serve. Same thing can be said for Barack Obama and his community organizing days. Not raised in the hood, but went back because he sees people who look like him struggling.

 

[RocknRhoLim]

I don't have a problem with them getting that and guess what...in some cases THEY DO. University of Colorado considers Vietnamese applicants URM even though they're Asian because they recognize that not every Asian ethnicity has the same background. It's about filling physician needs in specific communities and increasing the cultural sensitivity of physicians who are being trained right now.

Who is most likely to work in inner city Newark as a physician? Probably the Black or Latino physician, regardless of upbringing, it's a sense of duty. Look at Cory Booker, the mayor of Newark. Born in the 'burbs, went to Stanford and Harvard and where did he go to serve the public? Newark. He went to the hood because that's where he knew he could make the greatest impact and help out the people he cared about and felt a duty to serve. Same thing can be said for Barack Obama and his community organizing days. Not raised in the hood, but went back because he sees people who look like him struggling.

👍 I 😍 Cory Booker

 

[Radon XP]

I don't have a problem with them getting that and guess what...in some cases THEY DO.

They should get it in all cases. If you've had hardship and suffered discrimination, then that needs to be considered no matter which minority you belong to.

Who is most likely to work in inner city Newark as a physician? Probably the Black or Latino physician, regardless of upbringing, it's a sense of duty. Look at Cory Booker, the mayor of Newark. Born in the 'burbs, went to Stanford and Harvard and where did he go to serve the public? Newark. He went to the hood because that's where he knew he could make the greatest impact and help out the people he cared about and felt a duty to serve. Same thing can be said for Barack Obama and his community organizing days. Not raised in the hood, but went back because he sees people who look like him struggling.

Assumptions.

 

[ChemEngMD]

They should get it in all cases. If you've had hardship and suffered discrimination, then that needs to be considered no matter which minority you belong to.



Assumptions.

Assumptions that are being backed up by tangible examples of public servants going to these underserved, urban areas.

Show me one example of a White person doing this? There are some great White physicians who are from the burbs who then go and practice Rural Medicine, and it is a very similar situation. They try to recruit rural doctors just like they try to recruit URM doctors: to fill voids in the physician population and to provide healthcare access to segments of the country who do not have it.

 

[PM504]

How much of a benefit is it in society or in applying to medical school? Cause if you want to talk societal, it is much harder to even get to the point where you can apply to medical school as a Black, Latino or Native American (i.e. getting to college and being able to have all of the connections and pull the strings to be ready to apply). When it comes time to apply for med school, URMs on average have lower stats, but that is because there aren't as many of us applying in the first place.

The AMCAS data shows that COMBINED (Black, Latino, Native) over a 3 year period, there were only 21,000 of us applying...over that same period there were over 80,000 Whites and nearly 30,000 Asians. Our acceptance rates were still the lowest though ~44% for URMs, 44.5% for Asians, and 47.7% for Whites. So you're talking about a subset of the population (URMs) that make up ~30+% of the population only making up ~16% of the applicants. If they are trying to make classes representative of their local populations then they may be shooting to have 20-30% of their class be URM, but if only 10-15% of their applicants are URM then they will inherently have to dip a little further into the pool and give some applicants who may be statistically lower, but still have a great overall app, a shot.

So the answer is yes, on average URMs have overall lower stats, and thus some students get accepted with lower than usual stats, but Whites and Asians still make up the majority of the applicants and still have higher acceptance rates. This isn't even taking into account the schools in PR that account for probably 1/4 of the Latino acceptances in the country each year or the HBCU universities that account for a decent percentage of the accepted Blacks. Both of these schools have on average lower statistics because they have different missions (i.e. finding physicians that will serve underserved communities, be it in Puerto Rico or urban settings). If you were to remove some of those statistical outliers you would see a much lower acceptance rate for URMs and probably higher stats for the students who do get accepted.

Don't believe the hype.

Thanks, so much. I have seriously been under to impression that having URM (when applying to med school), helps you out significantly. 👍

 

[SunsFun]

Make up your minds: is Affirmative Action in medical school admissions necessary in order to give a helping hand to URM applicants, or in order to increase their numbers as a percentage of total physician population? If it is the former, then it is unfair that you should deny other applicants who suffer similar problems simply based on membership or lack thereof in a particular group; if the latter, I should seriously question the fairness and necessity of that approach.

Well, I personally think both are good reasons for AA to stay.

Randon, do you believe that URM from the same SES faced bigger challenges than the rest of the applicants?

Why is it unfair to cater to the desires of the patients and provide physicians that they can relate to?

 

[Medicinewoman85]

Why would having more black doctors increase access to healthcare for blacks? That's not an issue of race; it's an issue solved by universal healthcare/better access to affordable care.

Poor blacks still won't be able to afford to go see the doctor even if he's black.

 

[Jennyfishy]

You can't really compare circumstances of SES to circumstances involving race. To argue that we should view the world in a colorblind/meritocratic standard completely ignores how such a claim is coming from a position of privilege and social power. Someone who has never worked closely or been exposed to how societal institutions and people today maintain the power dynamics that explain why people of color tend to do worse in standardized tests/academia often don't understand, even if you throw the information at them 100 different ways. The belief that this is reverse racism shows how misinformed people are on the matter.

Other than that, it isn't an oppression olympics, where anyone should even be saying that poverty is a more important issue than dealing with racism/violence/discrimination your entire life. If you grew up from a poor, difficult, poor SE background, you have different experiences than someone who grew up in a predominantly white community where the people, including people in positions of power repeatedly ignored/withheld information from you/did not provide all of the resources you could've used to be better prepared for life, school, and the real world. And many doctors who do not share those experiences don't understand, despite the fact that many believe they do. Ex: My parents are Southeast Asian, and would 100% choose to go see a doctor who could talk to them in Vietnamese over a world renowned white physician. Why? Because their previous experiences have shown that their American doctors don't listen to them, understand their cultural beliefs/reservations about some types of exams (cervical/prostate/breast exams), and treat them like they're stupid because of their lack of English comprehension.

Either way, how they define URM, in my opinion needs a lot of updating. The lump category of "Asian" is incredibly misleading, especially since most med school apps in that category are East/South Asian and a marginal amount are Pacific Islander/Southeast Asian (but that's off topic 😛)

 

[Mt Kilimanjaro]

Assumptions that are being backed up by tangible examples of public servants going to these underserved, urban areas.

Show me one example of a White person doing this? There are some great White physicians who are from the burbs who then go and practice Rural Medicine, and it is a very similar situation. They try to recruit rural doctors just like they try to recruit URM doctors: to fill voids in the physician population and to provide healthcare access to segments of the country who do not have it.

Is a great white physician like a great white shark?

 

[Jennyfishy]

Is a great white physician like a great white shark?

The main difference is that one is an endangered species 😀

 

[jitterbug778]

I know I'm changing the subject, but do adcoms look at it negatively if you choose to not fill in your race? I know they will see you at interviews and clearly figure out your race then, but I guess it's my little way of "sticking it to the man." lol I would rather be given an interview based solely on my merit and not my race, gender, etc., even though I know it does play some role eventually.

 

[ChemEngMD]

Is a great white physician like a great white shark?

lulz...after writing that, I thought that too, perhaps there should have been a comma: great, White physicians.

 

[cookiemonsters]

I know I'm changing the subject, but do adcoms look at it negatively if you choose to not fill in your race? I know they will see you at interviews and clearly figure out your race then, but I guess it's my little way of "sticking it to the man." lol I would rather be given an interview based solely on my merit and not my race, gender, etc., even though I know it does play some role eventually.

I'm sure they assume white or Asian... they probably make an educated guess based on last name.

 

[DaenarysDuhh]

you can't really compare circumstances of ses to circumstances involving race. To argue that we should view the world in a colorblind/meritocratic standard completely ignores how such a claim is coming from a position of privilege and social power. Someone who has never worked closely or been exposed to how societal institutions and people today maintain the power dynamics that explain why people of color tend to do worse in standardized tests/academia often don't understand, even if you throw the information at them 100 different ways. The belief that this is reverse racism shows how misinformed people are on the matter.

Other than that, it isn't an oppression olympics, where anyone should even be saying that poverty is a more important issue than dealing with racism/violence/discrimination your entire life. If you grew up from a poor, difficult, poor se background, you have different experiences than someone who grew up in a predominantly white community where the people, including people in positions of power repeatedly ignored/withheld information from you/did not provide all of the resources you could've used to be better prepared for life, school, and the real world. And many doctors who do not share those experiences don't understand, despite the fact that many believe they do. Ex: My parents are southeast asian, and would 100% choose to go see a doctor who could talk to them in vietnamese over a world renowned white physician. Why? Because their previous experiences have shown that their american doctors don't listen to them, understand their cultural beliefs/reservations about some types of exams (cervical/prostate/breast exams), and treat them like they're stupid because of their lack of english comprehension.

Either way, how they define urm, in my opinion needs a lot of updating. The lump category of "asian" is incredibly misleading, especially since most med school apps in that category are east/south asian and a marginal amount are pacific islander/southeast asian (but that's off topic 😛)

+1

 

[ChemEngMD]

You can't really compare circumstances of SES to circumstances involving race. To argue that we should view the world in a colorblind/meritocratic standard completely ignores how such a claim is coming from a position of privilege and social power. Someone who has never worked closely or been exposed to how societal institutions and people today maintain the power dynamics that explain why people of color tend to do worse in standardized tests/academia often don't understand, even if you throw the information at them 100 different ways. The belief that this is reverse racism shows how misinformed people are on the matter.

Other than that, it isn't an oppression olympics, where anyone should even be saying that poverty is a more important issue than dealing with racism/violence/discrimination your entire life. If you grew up from a poor, difficult, poor SE background, you have different experiences than someone who grew up in a predominantly white community where the people, including people in positions of power repeatedly ignored/withheld information from you/did not provide all of the resources you could've used to be better prepared for life, school, and the real world. And many doctors who do not share those experiences don't understand, despite the fact that many believe they do. Ex: My parents are Southeast Asian, and would 100% choose to go see a doctor who could talk to them in Vietnamese over a world renowned white physician. Why? Because their previous experiences have shown that their American doctors don't listen to them, understand their cultural beliefs/reservations about some types of exams (cervical/prostate/breast exams), and treat them like they're stupid because of their lack of English comprehension.

Either way, how they define URM, in my opinion needs a lot of updating. The lump category of "Asian" is incredibly misleading, especially since most med school apps in that category are East/South Asian and a marginal amount are Pacific Islander/Southeast Asian (but that's off topic 😛)

👍 Great post.

If you didn't catch my post earlier, some schools are taking certain Asian ethnicities into account as URM.

http://www.ucdenver.edu/academics/c...iversity/aboutus/Pages/Diversity-Numbers.aspx

University of Colorado says that the entering class of 2016 had 61 URMs of which 16 were Vietnamese and 2 were Pacific Islanders. So some schools are learning not to paint such a diverse demographic as Asian/Pacific Islander with one broad brush stroke. 👍

 

[Jennyfishy]

👍 Great post.

If you didn't catch my post earlier, some schools are taking certain Asian ethnicities into account as URM.

http://www.ucdenver.edu/academics/c...iversity/aboutus/Pages/Diversity-Numbers.aspx

University of Colorado says that the entering class of 2016 had 61 URMs of which 16 were Vietnamese and 2 were Pacific Islanders. So some schools are learning not to paint such a diverse demographic as Asian/Pacific Islander with one broad brush stroke. 👍

👍

I've been following the thread for a while, but chose not to post because of how polarized the opinions/posts were 😛. I also thought I read all of the posts pretty closely, but I did not have a chance to read that one!

Yay for progress! I know there are other schools which are starting to acknowledge it as well (lots of work to be done still!). This is what makes my head spin though.

(In response to your link) So, on paper I would not be considered URM, since I'm "Asian," but according to this, I fall under that category (if I'm not mistaken)?

I am a first generation (everything) and my parents are/were poor refugee immigrants from Vietnam (fled their country after the Fall of Saigon).

I'll find out what AdComs think in a few weeks and let you all know

 

[ChemEngMD]

👍

I've been following the thread for a while, but chose not to post because of how polarized the opinions/posts were 😛. I also thought I read all of the posts pretty closely, but I did not have a chance to read that one!

Yay for progress! I know there are other schools which are starting to acknowledge it as well (lots of work to be done still!). This is what makes my head spin though.

(In response to your link) So, on paper I would not be considered URM, since I'm "Asian," but according to this, I fall under that category (if I'm not mistaken)?

I am a first generation (everything) and my parents are/were poor refugee immigrants from Vietnam (fled their country after the Fall of Saigon).

I'll find out what AdComs think in a few weeks and let you all know

When you clicked the "Asian" box on AMCAS did it give you the opportunity to click a specific ethnicity? For example, I clicked the Hispanic/Latino box then it allowed me to click the Puerto Rican and Dominican box and I clicked the Black/African-American which then allowed me to click the Afro-Caribbean.

If they have the information that you are Vietnamese specifically then they may group you as URM at certain schools. I do not know which schools these are though!

 

[Jennyfishy]

I did mark Vietnamese/Southeast Asian, but as a resident of California, that may have no significance. There's less than 2 million of us across the nation, yet nearly half of them ended up living in this state, LOL.

We're pretty much URM in every state except CA and TX if we use that line of thinking

I don't think there's aggregate data on a further breakdown like how many of those folks in CA/TX are from refugee backgrounds/were not sponsored to come here, but that's more along the lines of disadvantaged, and not an issue of racial/ethnic heritage, I guess. -head explodes-