How to gauge competitiveness of residency programs?

[virusgirl]

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Hi all --

I will be starting second year in a few weeks, and while I obviously have a ways to go before I start figuring out what/where I want to match into, I'm interested in peds and am not sure how people ultimately decide which programs to apply to. Some individual programs post this sort of information on their websites, but is there some consolidated place to gauge the relative competitiveness of residency programs (with respect to step 1 scores, AOA status, etc.)? Or is this sort of a word-of-mouth thing?

I am really and truly not asking this because I have my heart set on attending the most competitive program out of ego. Rather, I'm wondering how I can identify which programs would be (relatively) easy, moderate, and hard to match into for me, personally. For example, if I ended up bombing step 1, I would want to make sure that I had a list of programs where not all of them had average scores of 240+. Except for the obvious programs like CHOP, I'm really not sure how to identify programs as being reasonable to apply to or completely out of my league.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!

 

[Stitch]

US News and World report posts a list of the best children's hospitals each year, so that may be a good place to start. There are also a few thread in the peds forum discussing top children's hospitals, so search for those.

You're right in that some of this is word of mouth, so it's worth talking to your pediatric faculty. S/he can likely help you guess what's going to be a long shot versus good chance in terms of matching based on your own scores and resume. Plus, if certain faculty have trained at a place where you want to go but it's 'more competitive' see if they'd be willing to help you out in terms of getting an interview. Don't be afraid to use connections.

 

[twilightdoc]

Hi all --

I will be starting second year in a few weeks, and while I obviously have a ways to go before I start figuring out what/where I want to match into, I'm interested in peds and am not sure how people ultimately decide which programs to apply to. Some individual programs post this sort of information on their websites, but is there some consolidated place to gauge the relative competitiveness of residency programs (with respect to step 1 scores, AOA status, etc.)? Or is this sort of a word-of-mouth thing?

I am really and truly not asking this because I have my heart set on attending the most competitive program out of ego. Rather, I'm wondering how I can identify which programs would be (relatively) easy, moderate, and hard to match into for me, personally. For example, if I ended up bombing step 1, I would want to make sure that I had a list of programs where not all of them had average scores of 240+. Except for the obvious programs like CHOP, I'm really not sure how to identify programs as being reasonable to apply to or completely out of my league.

There is no "clearing house" of quantitative or objective information about the competitiveness (or quality) of residency training programs. Stitch mentioned the US News rankings as a potential resource, but those rankings don't necessarily equate with what might be "the best" training program for a given applicant. Most of the hospitals listed in US News are quite large, with a large intern class each year. While the #1 applicant on the match lists of those programs might be an absolute superstar, the size of their intern class is such that their final "draft pick" is a good student, but not necessarily AOA, 240+, etc. You should use a variety of sources in trying to figure out where you might consider applying. I think an experienced faculty member (or two or three) at your school might have some insight into the programs at which students with a similar academic record, scores, etc. have matched. The peds program director or clerkship director might be good resources. But be careful what you wish for... personally, I would rather be happy at a good program that matched my personality, learning style, etc. than be miserable at a more prestigious one that was not a good "fit" for me.

 

[Stitch]

But be careful what you wish for... personally, I would rather be happy at a good program that matched my personality, learning style, etc. than be miserable at a more prestigious one that was not a good "fit" for me.

👍

 

[TGAmed]

To piggy back on the original question, I am currently starting my ERAS application and trying to develop a list of 15-20 peds programs to apply to. I'm focused on the east coast but for the right program I would pretty much go anywhere. I think my preferences are:

1. academic
2. large
3. research opportunity
4. would love for them to have a good peds cards or congential cardiac surgery at the same hospital since I believe that I want to go on to do a cards fellowship. (this is clearly not essential...no one really knows if they'll do fellowship this early and its most important to become a knowledgeable generalist first...)

So far my list incudes (in an attempt to rank them in what I believe is an estimate of competitiveness)

1. CHOP
2. Boston Childrens
3. Cincinnatti
4. Hopkins
5. Ohio State
6. UNC
7. Cleveland Clinic
8. Wash U
9. MUSC

These are all tier 1 and 2 programs from what I understand. What would be some good tier 3 programs to add to the list so I have a well rounded and realistic list of options? Any thoughts on other schools in the Carolinas? (my husband has family there...)

Also, is there any way to know what matriculants to any programs average in terms of step 1 scores and class rank?

Also, I was advised for peds cards that going to the best program by reputation (albeit the program must still be a good fit for me) will assist me in getting fellowship positions. Any thoughts on this?

Thanks in advance

 

[TexasRose]

To piggy back on the original question, I am currently starting my ERAS application and trying to develop a list of 15-20 peds programs to apply to. I'm focused on the east coast but for the right program I would pretty much go anywhere. I think my preferences are:

1. academic
2. large
3. research opportunity
4. would love for them to have a good peds cards or congential cardiac surgery at the same hospital since I believe that I want to go on to do a cards fellowship. (this is clearly not essential...no one really knows if they'll do fellowship this early and its most important to become a knowledgeable generalist first...)

So far my list incudes (in an attempt to rank them in what I believe is an estimate of competitiveness)

1. CHOP
2. Boston Childrens
3. Cincinnatti
4. Hopkins
5. Ohio State
6. UNC
7. Cleveland Clinic
8. Wash U
9. MUSC

These are all tier 1 and 2 programs from what I understand. What would be some good tier 3 programs to add to the list so I have a well rounded and realistic list of options? Any thoughts on other schools in the Carolinas? (my husband has family there...)

Also, is there any way to know what matriculants to any programs average in terms of step 1 scores and class rank?

Also, I was advised for peds cards that going to the best program by reputation (albeit the program must still be a good fit for me) will assist me in getting fellowship positions. Any thoughts on this?

Thanks in advance

Well, if you want a strong program in Cards and you're willing to pretty much go anywhere, you left Baylor off your list. 😛

 

[AttyHubby]

Well, if you want a strong program in Cards and you're willing to pretty much go anywhere, you left Baylor off your list. 😛

They probably don't have a horse to ride to the hospital! 😀

 

[TexasRose]

They probably don't have a horse to ride to the hospital! 😀

Hey!

Oh right, you're in Houston. 😉

 

[AttyHubby]

Hey!

Oh right, you're in Houston. 😉

Yep! Be nice to my wife, she's one of the new interns.

 

[Complications]

... you forgot Michigan too! I believe now ... second highest cardiac surgery volume in the US.

 

[Lizzy Wurtzel]

Children's Hospital of Wisconsin: 9th ranked ped card/card surg, located in milwaukee, good hospital and not super competitive.

Pittsburgh: 12th ranked cards

Miami Children's hospital: 13th ranked cards

Riley Hospital: Indiana, 29th ranked cards, not very competitive

Arnold Palmer medical center: orlando, 30th ranked cards.

Jersey shores: just because.

 

[ZekeMD]

To piggy back on the original question, I am currently starting my ERAS application and trying to develop a list of 15-20 peds programs to apply to. I'm focused on the east coast but for the right program I would pretty much go anywhere. I think my preferences are:

1. academic
2. large
3. research opportunity
4. would love for them to have a good peds cards or congential cardiac surgery at the same hospital since I believe that I want to go on to do a cards fellowship. (this is clearly not essential...no one really knows if they'll do fellowship this early and its most important to become a knowledgeable generalist first...)

So far my list incudes (in an attempt to rank them in what I believe is an estimate of competitiveness)

1. CHOP
2. Boston Childrens
3. Cincinnatti
4. Hopkins
5. Ohio State
6. UNC
7. Cleveland Clinic
8. Wash U
9. MUSC

These are all tier 1 and 2 programs from what I understand. What would be some good tier 3 programs to add to the list so I have a well rounded and realistic list of options? Any thoughts on other schools in the Carolinas? (my husband has family there...)

Also, is there any way to know what matriculants to any programs average in terms of step 1 scores and class rank?

Also, I was advised for peds cards that going to the best program by reputation (albeit the program must still be a good fit for me) will assist me in getting fellowship positions. Any thoughts on this?

Thanks in advance

I was in the same situation when I applied to residency as I also wanted to specialize in pediatric cardiology. I ended up ranking UNC #1 for multiple reasons, which may help you think through some pro's and con's of the above programs.
1. UNC does not have a fellowship and I felt that there was more interaction with attendings without having fellows around.
2. Post-op heart patients go to the PICU, as UNC does not have a separate cardiac ICU. I thought this was a huge benefit since I was taking care of tons of post-op heart patients on my PICU rotation, instead of them going to a cardiac ICU where I would never have the chance to take care of them.
3. When I was applying, 4 of the graduating 3rd years and 2 second years had matched at well-respected peds cardiology fellowships (Stanford, Duke, Michigan, Cincinnati, Emory, and Denver).

I have since matched into pediatric cardiology without much difficulty, and I feel well-prepared to enter fellowship. It is true that going to a residency program without a fellowship program has it's downsides, but I felt that it was a major benefit. To summarize, I don't think you necessarily have to go to the top program in cardiology but rather go to an institution where you will get the experience you want in cards, but with broad exposure to other specialties as well. I do however think it is important to go to fellowship at an institution strong in whichever field you are applying, and being a resident at such institutions may give you a foot in the door to obtain such positions.

 

[babel]

Just in terms of gauging competitiveness, as the OP asked about, I found 2 things useful:

1) Board pass rates as listed by the ABP (sorry the link is so long and ugly):

https://www.abp.org/ABPWebStatic/#m....html&surl=/abpwebsite/resident/passrates.htm

2) Composition of the resident class (all allopathic vs. a few do's/fmg's/img's vs. all do's/fmg's/img's)

I first and foremost focused on my #1 criteria when coming up with my original list (location), but using the above info helped to reassure me that the programs I chose were sufficiently diverse in terms of "competitiveness" and helped me eliminate 1 or 2 programs (<2/3rd's passing over a 3 yr time period).