How to get good LOR (and many of them!)

[timtye78]

Many people seem to be at a loss when this issue comes around. And many of my friends were not real excited about the letters they did obtain.

I would like to share what I did and how it worked for me.

First I composed a letter to EACH physician I EVER worked with on my rotations. Some docs letters went out before others, obviously. My goal was to have MANY LORs and be able to select the best for my applications.

Here is an outline of my letters (which btw I saved on my computer as a "form" letter where I inserted the doc's name and other details)
By the way, this letter is dead serious. I literally wrote and sent something very similar to each doc:

Dear Dr. X,

I really enjoyed rotating with you on the "x" service in last fall. I feel that during that month with you I grew closer to my goal of being a physician. My experience that month allowed me more perspective, and greater breadth I believe which will help me treat patients in the future. I have decided to pursue a career in anesthesiology.

I would be very grateful to you if you would write me a strong letter of recommendation. I realize that you are a busy physician, and that you don't have a lot of time, so I am including what I feel are my strengths, to make it easier for you to help me achieve the residency position I would love to have.

I feel like I am a hard worker. I get along with others in the healthcare team. I love to learn new information all the time. I feel like I am an effective communicator with patients, staff, and other consultants. I have a professional appearance, and I can get along with anyone. I love working with my hands. I do not leave until the patients are stable, and comfortable if at all possible. (And on and on and on.....come on talk about yourself-its easy-really!)

Thank you so much for helping me to become an anesthesiologist! I really appreciate you taking the time to help out a medical student, like those physicians did that helped you obtain the residency position that you wanted. I have enclosed a stamped, addressed envelope for your convenience.

Sincerely,
Tim Tye"


Result: I received more LORs than anyone in my class (about 20-30!). My residency coordinator was astounded and kept asking me what the h** I did on my rotations to get as many letters and incredible ones at that! As a side note, many of my letters mysteriously contained very similar phrases and believe it or not some simply copied my self-description word for word! How fun is it when you can write your OWN LOR!! This ALSO mightily impressed my dean as well, who told me: "Well, Tim you are a classic example of one of those whose numbers obviously did not predict your outstanding clinical performance. I don't know what you did, but you did it right!"

Guys and Gals : USE THIS. It works! Happy Holidays!
Tim

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[mosche]

I read your post with great interest. While most of it seems like a "common sense" approach to LOR's, I don't know that I would have ever thought to pen the requests. I think that it is a wonderful idea.

Thank you for the suggestion,
Mosche

 

[fourthyearmed]

The only problem with this is how to choose which one to use. We are told to waive our right to see our letters so it wouldn't really work to have 30 letters I couldn't see. Might as well just ask a few people you trust to write a good letter if you don't have the option to look at them.

 

[spikyhairedgirl]

At my school the person who posts the LORs to ERAS sits us down and lets us know which are the better letters to send. She doesn't tell us content or anything, but lets us know which ones are flattering, well-written and would be helpful to our application. So if your school has that type of system, you would be all right with 30 letters. Also, waiving your right to see the LOR doesn't mean the letter writer can't show it to you, but rather that you can't demand that they do.

 

[Harrie]

Our school specifically states that we should not solicit LOR that we don't plan to use. Basically, they tell us that it is rude to ask a busy doctor to write us a LOR if we don't intend to use it. I think if your school doesn't have a problem with it, that's great. Ours wouldn't look to kindly on 20-30 LOR. You could still use the letter though, and just send it to a few people.

 

[Doc Ivy]

Question to the OP:

Did you send the requests out at the end of each rotation, or when you were ready to apply to ERAS?
I wonder if it would be a problem to use your strategy to get letters immediately after you work with the physician while their minds are fresh, then when you're ready to apply, you can just contact them for them to change the date and resign it. Seems like it would make for a stronger letter.

Just a thought.

 

[timtye78]

The only problem with this is how to choose which one to use. We are told to waive our right to see our letters so it wouldn't really work to have 30 letters I couldn't see. Might as well just ask a few people you trust to write a good letter if you don't have the option to look at them.

This is not a problem if you trust your residency advisor at your school to recommend which are the ones he/she thinks are the best. Also, you have waived your right to see the letters...it doesn't mean that you may never see them on the desk of your residency advisor, i.e. it does not mean that they were not placed in your view...
It is up to you!

 

[timtye78]

Question to the OP:

Did you send the requests out at the end of each rotation, or when you were ready to apply to ERAS?
I wonder if it would be a problem to use your strategy to get letters immediately after you work with the physician while their minds are fresh, then when you're ready to apply, you can just contact them for them to change the date and resign it. Seems like it would make for a stronger letter.

Just a thought.

Actually, this idea sprung while I was in the ERAS process. In fact, if you look back at the format, I refreshed their memory with a description of when I was with them. Oh yeah! I also attached one copy of my little passport style photos on each one, so if they couldn't specifically put a name with the face, they had a little reminder of what I looked like. It may have also implied that each request was important to me.

Time from the rotation didn't seem to have any effect on the strength of the verbage. What did seem to show was that docs that cared about the future success of students were the most eager and provided the most outstanding letters but I appreciated every letter they wrote for me. Not only did it make me look outstanding for ERAS, I think seeing the pile of letters impressed my dean, and I believe my letter from him may have been stronger as a result.

 

[timtye78]

Our school specifically states that we should not solicit LOR that we don't plan to use. Basically, they tell us that it is rude to ask a busy doctor to write us a LOR if we don't intend to use it. I think if your school doesn't have a problem with it, that's great. Ours wouldn't look to kindly on 20-30 LOR. You could still use the letter though, and just send it to a few people.

My intent was to use the most outstanding letters that I might receive. We were advised to obtain LOR, and we were not advised what exactly constituted the correct number. Whether it was the pediatrician who told me "your shelf exam grade for Peds is below my cut-off for a letter." (Pompous jerk-who cares!) or the Chief of Cardiothoracic Surgery who not only wrote on heck of a letter (and directly mailed me a copy!)-I appreciated each letter that was written. And many students found it difficult to get any "busy" doc to write a letter, much less heed the time contraints.

 

[timtye78]

Our school specifically states that we should not solicit LOR that we don't plan to use. Basically, they tell us that it is rude to ask a busy doctor to write us a LOR if we don't intend to use it. I think if your school doesn't have a problem with it, that's great. Ours wouldn't look to kindly on 20-30 LOR. You could still use the letter though, and just send it to a few people.

It still surprises how much people still play the guessing game, aka politics, with other people when it comes to medicine. Trying to second-guess every thing you do really is a waste of time. You may be surprised how many docs out there respond to warmth and a sincere request for help!

Even as a future doc you are allowed to make a decision about something or how you wish to approach it. My advice to you is do what you feel is best for you, and just be prepared to validate and/explain why you did it.

My intent was to use the most outstanding letters that I could obtain. Each letter written for me was evaluated and the most outstanding were chosen. My philosophy on the value of each LOR was a combination of the author's title/position and the strength of the letter's verbage. Each letter I obtained was sincerely appreciated. Also, I believe that if you are a good medical student, you have actually helped eased your attendings busy life. This is an opportunity for the attending to reward a good student in a more tangible and useful way than a random grade on a 0 to 100 scale plus or minus a few scribbles on an eval form.

 

[realruby2000]

this thread is sweet!

 

[lawmd]

I aked 5 people who I knew well, worked with, and who I know that knew me well. I asked them all in July. I gave them a copy of my eras application, personal statement-basically my whole file and life on paper. I would email them the first of each month thereafter to kindly remind them and ask if there was anything else they needed. As October approached, the emails became weekly, and I would stop by top say hello. if that didnt get it done, I hunted them down and simply said that I needed the letter. this got them all in by late october. the key is to be kind and persistent and get people who know you.

 

[fourthyearmed]

This is not a problem if you trust your residency advisor at your school to recommend which are the ones he/she thinks are the best. Also, you have waived your right to see the letters...it doesn't mean that you may never see them on the desk of your residency advisor, i.e. it does not mean that they were not placed in your view...
It is up to you!

This isn't really an option an my school either. It all depends on the way your school works.

 

[surg]

While I congratulate you on your industriousness and the seriousness in which you took to find some good letters, I can't resist making a few comments for anyone who is considering this route:

As a person who has read many applications, I'd be wondering what the heck was going on if you submitted 20 LORs! Most apps will only ask for 3, so if you sent more than 3-4, it should be for a good reason (i.e. it illuminates a different side of you, e.g. research that can't be gotten from the other letters). Likewise, letters from a person not in your specialty may or may not be helpful. It looks like you took this into account, so this comment is meant for others who might be tempted to submit them all in an attempt to impress.

Also, did it occur to you, that the attendings may be a little miffed if they find out later that their letter wasn't used? Many of these folks know people at where you are applying, at may follow-up with their friends there. Finally, the time they spend writing you a letter that you know you won't use, is time they could spend counseling and writing a letter for someone else in your class. Imagine if everyone in your class copied your approach, it would be overwhelming to write an excellent letter for every student that ever rotated with me for at least 1 week (~40-60/year!)

 

[sam427]

Just wanted to chime in in case anyone is actually considering this approach:

I think it's incredibly rude, a waste of time and likely to backfire.

--As people have said, the attendings are busy and would be very annoyed if they found out you were trying to get a letter from everyone you rotated with. It's actually quite likely that they would find out--at my school, the admin. person who collects the letters sits right in the dean's office, and I would bet that she would say something to our dean if someone had that many letters that they are obviously not going to use.

--There's something wrong if you can't tell who is going to write you a good letter. At the very least, you should be getting verbal or written feedback from your attendings , so you should be able to tell from that. And if you are considering asking someone for a letter, it is always acceptable to ask if they feel they can write you a strong LOR.

 

[timtye78]

While I congratulate you on your industriousness and the seriousness in which you took to find some good letters, I can't resist making a few comments for anyone who is considering this route:

As a person who has read many applications, I'd be wondering what the heck was going on if you submitted 20 LORs! Most apps will only ask for 3, so if you sent more than 3-4, it should be for a good reason (i.e. it illuminates a different side of you, e.g. research that can't be gotten from the other letters). Likewise, letters from a person not in your specialty may or may not be helpful. It looks like you took this into account, so this comment is meant for others who might be tempted to submit them all in an attempt to impress.

Also, did it occur to you, that the attendings may be a little miffed if they find out later that their letter wasn't used? Many of these folks know people at where you are applying, at may follow-up with their friends there. Finally, the time they spend writing you a letter that you know you won't use, is time they could spend counseling and writing a letter for someone else in your class. Imagine if everyone in your class copied your approach, it would be overwhelming to write an excellent letter for every student that ever rotated with me for at least 1 week (~40-60/year!)

Reply:
Again, good points. I submitted only the acceptable number of LOR to ERAS. I simply selected the best. No, I don't think everyone is going to do exactly as I did, but it does I feel eliminate some of the awkward feelings that some poeple encounter. I would have been open to any strong letter for my use. I do not feel we should curtail any student and make them feel guilty for asking any doc for an LOR. I think attendings should return the favor, someone helped them get in! Residency can be almost or even more stressful than getting into med school. I would be happy to write letters for some hard working interested med student when I become an attending. Good thoughts and I respect your point of view.
Tim

 

[timtye78]

Just wanted to chime in in case anyone is actually considering this approach:

I think it's incredibly rude, a waste of time and likely to backfire.
**Your viewpoint is respected, but I disagree. I disagree on each aspect:
rudeness, waste of time, and backfiring. You are welcome to your opinion.

--As people have said, the attendings are busy and would be very annoyed if they found out you were trying to get a letter from everyone you rotated with. It's actually quite likely that they would find out--at my school, the admin. person who collects the letters sits right in the dean's office, and I would bet that she would say something to our dean if someone had that many letters that they are obviously not going to use.
***Nobody I enountered was "miffed." My attendings seemed flattered that I asked them for help. Each was thanked individually, and they offered me encouragement. And by the way, I did not get a letter from every doc that I rotated with. That is the whole reason I did this, I knew I wouldn't get one from every doc, but I didn't want my application to be delayed waiting on the final letter from someone, who might refuse as well.

--There's something wrong if you can't tell who is going to write you a good letter. At the very least, you should be getting verbal or written feedback from your attendings , so you should be able to tell from that. And if you are considering asking someone for a letter, it is always acceptable to ask if they feel they can write you a strong LOR.

***Somewhat true but not always. Some docs really surprised me. All that wrote were positive, but strength of the letters varied. Obviously, I wanted very strong recs. Have a nice day!

By the way, my dean saw each letter, and he congratulated me!

 

[Idiopathic]

I dont think its a bad idea, tim. And it seems to have worked, no?

 

[axm397]

I think it's very generous of tim to share his strategy with us. Many "gunners" would have kept that kind of information to themselves.

That being said, I think 20-30 is a bit excessive. Especially if you know what field you are going into. Would an Anesthesiology PD care more about what a FP doc had to say about you vs another Anesthesiologist?? I think anything more than 10 would be too many. You only need 4. If you have a mentor/advisor, there's one, the one from the chair of the department of the field you want to go into is another one - then you just have to come up with 2 more. I got them from my away electives at programs I really wanted to go to.

I gave a copy of my personal statement, my CV, and any other pertinent info in a packet to my letter writers with a personal note thanking them for their time. I also wrote specific lessons I learned from the letter writer and what about that physician I admired the most.

I think a very personal strong LOR from a well known "name" in the field would be the ideal LOR. That only comes with incredible luck to get a rotation with him/her to begin with, then your hard work to make an impression.

Anyways, I'm glad you matched well and you are generous enough to share your strategy with other more "shy" students.

 

[timtye78]

I think it's very generous of tim to share his strategy with us. Many "gunners" would have kept that kind of information to themselves.

That being said, I think 20-30 is a bit excessive. Especially if you know what field you are going into. Would an Anesthesiology PD care more about what a FP doc had to say about you vs another Anesthesiologist?? I think anything more than 10 would be too many. You only need 4. If you have a mentor/advisor, there's one, the one from the chair of the department of the field you want to go into is another one - then you just have to come up with 2 more. I got them from my away electives at programs I really wanted to go to.

I gave a copy of my personal statement, my CV, and any other pertinent info in a packet to my letter writers with a personal note thanking them for their time. I also wrote specific lessons I learned from the letter writer and what about that physician I admired the most.

I think a very personal strong LOR from a well known "name" in the field would be the ideal LOR. That only comes with incredible luck to get a rotation with him/her to begin with, then your hard work to make an impression.

Anyways, I'm glad you matched well and you are generous enough to share your strategy with other more "shy" students.

You are most welcome..ok guys enough debating..this is only an fyi, if you see something or even part of something you want to try..give a whirl.otherwise I am washing my hands of this forevermore-if it is offensive or ridiculous to you laugh and consider it entertainment