How to get involved in police psychology

[Catholicpsych]

Hello all, I am about 1.5 years away from beginning my internship in clinical psychology (3rd year in year round Psy. D program) and recently came across the APA specialty, "police and public safety." This led me to further info on the fact that some police officers become psychologists and continue to serve as both officers and psychologists for the police community. I am interested in doing something like that - possibly becoming a cop with a doctorate in clinical psychology and serving the police community. Or simply using my psychological training at the service of policing including some forensic work, consulting with police agencies, possible hostage negotiation, criminal profiling, etc.

It is especially interesting because the current state of policing is in great flux, and I think many police departments are going to be looking for psychologists to consult in order to provide better policing.

I have many questions on this, but for now: Does anyone have any information on how I could gear my externship (next year) and then my internship towards this kind of work? If you got involved in this work, how did you? It just seems like there aren't many training opportunities pre-licensure. Thanks all.

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[erg923]

Hello all, I am about 1.5 years away from beginning my internship in clinical psychology (3rd year in year round Psy. D program) and recently came across the APA specialty, "police and public safety." This led me to further info on the fact that some police officers become psychologists and continue to serve as both officers and psychologists for the police community. I am interested in doing something like that - possibly becoming a cop with a doctorate in clinical psychology and serving the police community. Or simply using my psychological training at the service of policing including some forensic work, consulting with police agencies, possible hostage negotiation, criminal profiling, etc.

It is especially interesting because the current state of policing is in great flux, and I think many police departments are going to be looking for psychologists to consult in order to provide better policing.

I have many questions on this, but for now: Does anyone have any information on how I could gear my externship (next year) and then my internship towards this kind of work? If you got involved in this work, how did you? It just seems like there aren't many training opportunities pre-licensure. Thanks all.

Do you know the median salary for a police officer outside very large urban areas? When you find out, you wont want to be one if you have a doctorate and, presumably, a ****load of Psy.D debt.

In terms of psychologists working with law enforcement agencies (mostly as non-employee consultant), yes this occurs. You would need specialty training in forensic/correctional psychology. There are internships and post-docs that are geared toward this. Search the APPIC directory.

Hostage negotiators are going to be experienced law enforcement officers, SWAT, etc. Rarely a psychologist.

Criminal profiling is much more law enforcement and criminology than psychology. And its validity and role have been overblown by the media and silly TV shows.

It is especially interesting because the current state of policing is in great flux, and I think many police departments are going to be looking for psychologists to consult in order to provide better policing.

You dont much about the culture of law enforcement, do you?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Law enforcement can be one of the most closed off and difficult populations to serve bc they do not like to cooperate with psych evals/service.

Fitness for duty evals are a niche area, but it is far from what most ppl think of when they think of consultation with law enforcement.

 

[G Costanza]

The easiest entry into that system is finding the licensed psychologist(s) who does the pre-employment psych screenings for a decent sized department and hook up with them.

 

[G Costanza]

Semi-interesting side story: I also wanted to get training in hostage negotiation until I had a client who was on the run from the police after refusing to be hospitalized. They called me with police in pursuit and put me in a position of talking them out of killing themself and a child by driving off a bridge.

I've never felt so much responsibility in my life. It felt awesome when they stopped and turned themself in, but I knew it would have really impacted me had it not turned out well. Lesson learned was that it's just not something I could do regularly.

 

[student til 30]

Hello all, I am about 1.5 years away from beginning my internship in clinical psychology (3rd year in year round Psy. D program) and recently came across the APA specialty, "police and public safety." This led me to further info on the fact that some police officers become psychologists and continue to serve as both officers and psychologists for the police community. I am interested in doing something like that - possibly becoming a cop with a doctorate in clinical psychology and serving the police community.
- You're looking at a dual relationship if you perform therapy or evaluations for your coworkers. You could conceivably work as a psychologist and cop in different jurisdictions, but are you maintaining both skill sets adequately? Anecdotal, but I've only heard of psychologists who were previously cops, who use their experience to boost credibility and build rapport.

Or simply using my psychological training at the service of policing including some forensic work,
- If you perform a forensic evaluation, you are not serving police. You are a neutral third party examiner. If there are psychologists who get called by cops to assist with investigations, it's news to me.

consulting with police agencies,
- Don't know much about this, but I'd imagine there could be a market for training, depending on your qualifications and marketing ability.

possible hostage negotiation, criminal profiling, etc.
- For the most part, not something psychologists do. There are some jobs in this general area (e.g., training/consulting with the actual negotiators) that go to a small number of people with many years of experience and specialized training. You would probably need to do several jobs well before this is an option.

It is especially interesting because the current state of policing is in great flux, and I think many police departments are going to be looking for psychologists to consult in order to provide better policing.
- People don't care about psychology as much as psychologists do. Most people think they have a good understanding of human behavior and don't need our help. I'm sure there are some departments with organizational buy-in, who will give you money and training time.

I have many questions on this, but for now: Does anyone have any information on how I could gear my externship (next year) and then my internship towards this kind of work? If you got involved in this work, how did you? It just seems like there aren't many training opportunities pre-licensure. Thanks all.
- See if there is an externship site that does police evals, one where you can work on forensic evals, or something like a diversion court. I don't know about being competitive for forensic internships and post docs, but good generalist training is probably fair guidance to start with. Be generally competent before specializing. I would direct you to APA division 41 for better guidance. Military psychology could provide a decent background for police psychology, but this is a significant career detour.

 

[PsyDr]

I think it's a stupid made up specialty. Here's why:

1) If you are talking about pre-employment screenings, there is already a speciality which covers this.
2) If you are talking about forensic assessments such as sex offenders, there is already a specialty for this which are entrenched in case law and academia. "So you're not really forensically trained?"
3) Police agencies have specifically fought against hiring intelligent people. Seriously, there is case law.
4) If you are hired as a police officer, then the doctorate is meaningless. Most departments have a regimented method of promotion. If you were an officer, there are numerous ethical and legal problems with treating other police officers and/or switching roles. Say someone kills themselves, are you liable as a police officer or a psychologist?
5) I trust the leadership in this about as much as I trust... I dunno, someone not trustworthy.
6) Criminal profiling is a joke. The FBI people from the behavioral unit are not psychologists, and IMO they are not very good. Same for the canadian versions.
7) Hostage negotiation sounds awful, and frankly way too much liability. More bluntly, I'm guessing these situations happen at really inconvenient times, so there are some lifestyle problems there. MIght be okay to wake up at 2am on a thursday at 25. Not so much at 65.
8) Consulting means you have something they want. There are a few psychologists who already do this, but have nothing to do with "police psychology".
9) Being an expert witness would be a BIG problem for someone whose training, by definition, creates a bias towards police.

 

[Catholicpsych]

I appreciate the constructive comments from many of you. One thing that I ought to have mentioned is that I am fully aware of the difficulty of getting into this kind of niche. That's why I am here asking the question here - to see if anyone has experience / information. I also find it frustrating that some of you can be so harsh when I simply asked a question. I think basic human respect should be upheld, even online.

The specialty of police and public safety was started at least in part by what have come to be termed 'cop docs.' These are police officers who got their PhD or PsyD as officers, and then went on to serve their departments in a dual role. For example, one cop doc from St. Paul, MN, started an employee assistance program for the Saint Paul police department while serving as an officer. I've had interest in becoming a police officer before moving into psychology, and I thought this was a pretty cool thing to stumble upon. Other cop docs have been involved in the current discussions about the future of policing, hot topic being "community policing." Anyway, it seems to me like an opportunity for the application of psychological ideas and research.

I see what some of you are saying, that police departments are old school, so to speak, and so are not open to psychology because it may be seen as "soft" or simply not useful for officers. That may also be connected to the problem (very broadly speaking) of getting men in therapy and getting them to stay in therapy. Men don't seem to be coming to therapy probably for some of the same reasons why police departments avoid psychology. The psychological services that are being provided to departments tend to focus on trauma, which makes sense, but I don't think you find many officers going to long-term psychotherapy. Anyhow, I am just rambling now. Thanks again to those who gave constructive feed back.

 

[psych.meout]

I appreciate the constructive comments from many of you. One thing that I ought to have mentioned is that I am fully aware of the difficulty of getting into this kind of niche. That's why I am here asking the question here - to see if anyone has experience / information. I also find it frustrating that some of you can be so harsh when I simply asked a question. I think basic human respect should be upheld, even online.

The specialty of police and public safety was started at least in part by what have come to be termed 'cop docs.' These are police officers who got their PhD or PsyD as officers, and then went on to serve their departments in a dual role. For example, one cop doc from St. Paul, MN, started an employee assistance program for the Saint Paul police department while serving as an officer. I've had interest in becoming a police officer before moving into psychology, and I thought this was a pretty cool thing to stumble upon. Other cop docs have been involved in the current discussions about the future of policing, hot topic being "community policing." Anyway, it seems to me like an opportunity for the application of psychological ideas and research.

I see what some of you are saying, that police departments are old school, so to speak, and so are not open to psychology because it may be seen as "soft" or simply not useful for officers. That may also be connected to the problem (very broadly speaking) of getting men in therapy and getting them to stay in therapy. Men don't seem to be coming to therapy probably for some of the same reasons why police departments avoid psychology. The psychological services that are being provided to departments tend to focus on trauma, which makes sense, but I don't think you find many officers going to long-term psychotherapy. Anyhow, I am just rambling now. Thanks again to those who gave constructive feed back.

Pay less attention to the ways people are writing and more about the message they are giving you.

Machismo, group pressures, and resistance to therapy are just one small part of this and not the main issues.

There are professional and ethical issues of dual relationships (are you a fellow cop on the job or their provider, you can't be both), bias (how can you testify as an objective witness for the facts when you are clearly on one side), and lack of evidence (profiling is garbage). What legal/criminal justice-related roles exist and don't have these professional and ethical issues are already better handled by existing specialties, especially forensic psychology.

It really just seems like you have an answer (i.e. police psychology) looking for problem to solve.

 

[erg923]

The specialty of police and public safety was started at least in part by what have come to be termed 'cop docs.' These are police officers who got their PhD or PsyD as officers, and then went on to serve their departments in a dual role.

Uh...i dont think so. All kinds of ethical problems here.

 

[WisNeuro]

Uh...i dont think so. All kinds of ethical problems here.

This exists.

Cop Docs

Although I'd hope that any actual return to duty type decisions were handled by a neutral third party.

 

[erg923]

This exists.

Cop Docs

Although I'd hope that any actual return to duty type decisions were handled by a neutral third party.

I meant my "um, no" as in, this sound like a bad idea. Ive heard of it before. Dont think this is what we need to be aspiring to.

 

[foreverbull]

I can't speak to police hiring you (the others' advice is sound), but there is opportunity for you to work as a psychologist in prisons and possibly conduct research there, even if it isn't police work per se. It pays well, but comes with its own set of challenges. Still, might get you closer to the population you might be looking to work with, and you might make some connections that way. Just a thought.

 

[WisNeuro]

I meant my "um, no" as in, this sound like a bad idea. Ive heard of it before. Dont think this is what we need to be aspiring to.

I don't necessarily agree, depending on how roles were delineated to avoid multiple relationships and conflicts of interest. I think the potential is there, but it could be navigated. Simialr to embedding psychologists in to military units. They're still active duty military members.

 

[psych.meout]

I meant my "um, no" as in, this sound like a bad idea. Ive heard of it before. Dont think this is what we need to be aspiring to.

Exactly. That article raises even more concerns than I had before reading it.

The part about managing negative media portrayals seemed a lot more like talking to a union rep instead of a psychologist.

This position sounds like it's rife with opportunities for multiple relationships and confusion about who is the client for a given purpose. Is this guy a fellow cop and supervisor to these officers (it says he retired as a captain, which is a position with significant authority over other officers), which means he falls under the chain of command and regulations of the police department? Or is he the mental health provider for these cops and therefore has a duty to them as individuals, including confidentiality if they disclose something to them? Or is he a consultant that is evaluating new and current officers for personnel selection and fitness for duty?

What if a cop discloses some impropriety or illegality, either by them personally or their fellow officers? Which role is he in then? Is he supposed to be a disciplinarian and member of the force and is required to report and act upon the information? Or is he supposed to keep this information confidential, barring any safety concerns or disclosure of upcoming crimes? Or is he supposed to use as part of evaluating this and other officers for fitness for duty?

I don't necessarily agree, depending on how roles were delineated to avoid multiple relationships and conflicts of interest. I think the potential is there, but it could be navigated. Simialr to embedding psychologists in to military units. They're still active duty military members.

There are still many of these same concerns about professional ethics with active duty military psychologists, but at least there's a different legal code (UCMJ) being applied in terms of military psychologists and other personnel.

 

[student til 30]

The military embeds active duty psychologists in units so that the unit can deploy with a psychologist. Some jurisdictions have psychologists who are corrections officers, because they work in jails and prisons. Professional ethics remain the same, but the number of ethically challenging situations and occupational hardships is greater, and psychologists navigate it all so that resources can get to difficult environments. I'm not sure it's necessary to take on similar ethical challenges in order to effectively work in a police department.

All that aside, do you really want to decide between outing someone as a patient and spending 12 hours in a squad car with them, then discuss it in treatment the next week?

 

[WisNeuro]

The military embeds active duty psychologists in units so that the unit can deploy with a psychologist. Some jurisdictions have psychologists who are corrections officers, because they work in jails and prisons. Professional ethics remain the same, but the number of ethically challenging situations and occupational hardships is greater, and psychologists navigate it all so that resources can get to difficult environments. I'm not sure it's necessary to take on similar ethical challenges in order to effectively work in a police department.

All that aside, do you really want to decide between outing someone as a patient and spending 12 hours in a squad car with them, then discuss it in treatment the next week?

I'd be interested in how they actually split the work duties, but the article makes it sound like the writer is more involved in advocacy and crisis management, than ride alongs. Potential conflicts are there, sure, but I imagine a lot of people here are assuming many things about the work without really knowing what it entails in the slightest.

 

[psych.meout]

I'd be interested in how they actually split the work duties, but the article makes it sound like the writer is more involved in advocacy and crisis management, than ride alongs. Potential conflicts are there, sure, but I imagine a lot of people here are assuming many things about the work without really knowing what it entails in the slightest.

It sounds like the author was responding as an officer to the officer-involved shooting, not as a psychologist, but I could be wrong.

 

[WisNeuro]

It sounds like the author was responding as an officer to the officer-involved shooting, not as a psychologist, but I could be wrong.

Could be, it's vaguely written. It could just be their duty to get called in to officer involved shootings of any kind. I'd want a more descriptive account of the duties and delineation of roles before writing off the whole endeavor, as some have.

 

[egharib]

Hey OP.

I lurk on the forums but rarely post. I figured I'd jump in because I can shed some insight on this topic.

I've been a reserve police officer in CA for almost 7 years. Same training as a full-time officer and same duties, expect I get to choose when I want to work and I get paid $1 a year. Fun stuff : D.

I completed part of my post doc at the LA County Sheriff's Department employee support services unit. Only a handful of law enforcement agencies have police psychologists on staff. LASD and LAPD are the two I know of in the LA area. I provided therapy to LASD employees (sworn and non-sworn). Also did critical incident debriefings. The unit also does consulting work for the agency and teaches courses related to mental health to deputies. Psychologists are also on call to handle any incidents that might happen to an employee after hours (e.g. line of duty death, suicidal employee, employee seriously hurt etc...). Police psychology like you see on TV isn't accurate and representative of what you see in real life. For example, 90% of the cases I had involved relationship issues and marital problems. Maybe 8-9% were related to work place issues (e.g. anxiety due to retaliation from supervisor/ co-workers or work place harassment). We had psychologists that consulted with SWAT and hostage negotiators. Situations that require negotiations are nowhere near as dramatic or exciting as what you see on TV btw.

The confidentiality rules were the same as in any regular MH setting (SI, child abuse, elder abuse, dependent adult abuse etc..). Only time things were different is if they came for a critical incident debriefing (all we would report is that they showed up...the contents of what they discussed wasn't released. We didn't do Fitness for duty evals so we couldn't release any information related to their ability/ inability to do their jobs).

The psychologists on the unit came from different places. Mostly from LA Department of Mental Health( since they worked for the county already, they could easily promote into the position). Some were psychologists in the military before. The pay was quite good for a county gig (115K - 140K a year w/o benefits or OT....some were making more). Only one of the psychologists on the unit was a previous post-doc. You don't need specialized training to get into law enforcement psychology. Your generalist training is fine. Most of what you learn will be on the job. History of working with veterans or military will make things easier. What makes it hard to get into this field is knowing the ins and outs of law enforcement culture. Most people don't know anything outside of what they see on TV or read in a book. Cops have type A, alpha personalities (even the women). You have to be if you want to deal with the BS they deal with day in and day out. They can sniff out BS a mile away. If they don't trust you or don't feel like you know/ understand them, they won't engage with you. The department brass were very supportive of the program and deputies utilized the services we had.

The other option (and more realistic one) is being a contractor for a smaller agency. The way you get into this is by knowing the right people. Law enforcement community is really small and agencies talk to each other when it comes to hiring someone to meet with their cops, do training, or due hiring evals. The doc I know that is a contractor is on retainer for several agencies (he used to have dozens). His retainer is 40-50K a year, per agency.

FYI, the background check you have to go through is very meticulous. It is the same one I had to go through to get hired as a police officer. You have to fill out a 50+ background packet that asks you all sorts of questions about your life, provide dozens of personal and work references (which the background investigator will contact and speak at length about you, and possibly a polygraph. History of hard drug use is an instant disqualifier. History of marijuana use can be disqualifying depending on the last time you used.

Someone noted that its a "made up stupid specialty". Having been a cop and working at LASD, I can tell you that it is a specialty. The boarding process is also pretty arduous too. The field requires a particular type of psychologist with a particular skill set to effectively work with cops.

So to answer your question, you aren't going to find pre-doc internships catered specifically towards cops. Working with veterans or military personnel is probably the next best thing. If you want to consult with agencies, you have to know about the culture of law enforcement. I was a cop for 6 years before I started so I was very familiar with it. The psychologists I know that consult started by volunteering their time at their local PD (offering free training, attending open houses, getting involved in citizen academies, asking to go on ride-a-longs). Cops don't trust outsiders. They don't care what fancy school or post-doc you went to. At the end of the day they have to trust you and feel comfortable talking to you. You have to work long and hard to get into an agency. I've seen psychologists come to our agency and give talks and cops can sniff out BS right away. They aren't invited back and your reputation will spread like a wildfire. If you are easily offended, don't like to get picked on, and can't tolerate smack-talk, don't bother going into the field. You'll be given a hard time until people get to know you and trust you.

If you have any questions, don't hesitate to shoot me a PM. Happy to help : ).

 

[Catholicpsych]

Thanks very much for all of the info. I'll send a message.