How to handle this diplomatically?

[nope80]

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Okay so, I have been trying to avoid as many "away" rotations during the third year as possible since I'd rather spend as little time away from my husband as possible. Also was considering getting pregnant sometime during the year...

Anyway, I was placed in a town 36 miles from my home and school to do a family medicine rotation. We were asked to submit paragraphs about ourselves to help them find a right fit - I contacted the office about this a few weeks ago and before submitting the paragraphs, I was placed in this location. To make matters worse the office that places us isn't part of the school (its a state rural family medicine placement organization) and when I spoke to the lady in charge at our school she took no responsibility and said that the other organization is responsible for placing. So anyway, she gives me their email and phone number. When I call, the person in charge of all this is a nurse with a major attitude. She seemed very adversarial and asked me where I got her phone number from because it was her PERSONAL POLICY to not accept any phone calls from students. I'm like huh? okay, so sorry She's like you have to send me emails only. So thats what I did. Sent her an email, no response, a week goes by, I am antsy to call but don't out of fear for being yelled at and so I email again. She just responded stating that I have been tentatively placed in the same location as of now. No explanation, no reason, no response to my long email stating exactly why I wanted to be at least a tad bit closer, nothing.

It makes me so mad because this lady isn't on our side, she has a major attitude and seems like she is on a power trip. When I called her the first time, she started accusing me of "talking to her superior" about this - when really all I did was call and the person that picked up her line was apparently her superior and so I just asked her about it.

Anyway, I have no idea what to do? I tried to send her a nice diplomatic email but she just sent a one liner back making it impossible to communicate with her. The lady who is in charge of this at our school takes no responsibility and states that they are the ones to do the placing (yet she gets copied on all the emails). I also know they haven't placed anyone yet and there is a large number of docs to choose from so if they wanted to change my placement they totally could. Just don't know what to do next?

Any suggestions? Sorry it was so long..

 

[MDInvestor]

I don't get it. You think because you have a husband you should have special treatment? I don't blame you for trying. I actually got place in my number one spot for OBGYN 10 mins from our house. Two weeks before the rotation, we were told that they over booked it and to maintain a good acadeemic learning enviroment, one of us should volunteer to be put at another location. Nobody volunteered so they did a lottery. I lost. My rotation was 75 miles away with housing included. However, I didn't want to leave my wife for 6 weeks so I politely explained, they said the lottery was unbiased, I agreed (in my head). In the end, I commuted everyday 150 miles. You either make sacrifices for your loved ones or you don't. Don't blame some coordinator if you are unwilling to adapt to what life throws at you. You are just asking for a new hand instead of playing the one you've been dealt. In the end, it was only for 6 weeks. Bottom line: Adapt quickly and stop blaming others.

 

[nope80]

It wasn't a lottery system. People were hand matched based on what they thought would be a good fit for you. If this was a situation like the one you described above, I would understand - there are only a certain number of places in the hospital for every rotation etc..in my case we are talking about family practice and there are many many offices they can choose from for that given block (more than the number of students in the rotation). Given the fact that this is the case, I don't understand why they wouldn't be more accomodating.

 

[BigRedBeta]

I'm with MDInvestor on this one...why do you get special treatment in this situation? Maybe the lack of ready transportation is a justifiable reason...but then that seems like it would be a problem with pretty much any other location as well. And while this coordinator may be on a power trip, you certainly come across as extremely whiny, with a unjustified sense of entitlement to get your way.

36 miles isn't that bad. There are a number of my classmates who commuted everyday more than 50 miles each way through all 4 years of med school, because of spouses and kids and whatever else. And I'm sure that there aren't as many locations as you think - not all physicians like to teach/want to have their days slowed with students/etc.

Take a step back and a deep breath and think about what's really at stake here. Worst case scenario it seems like you have to commute to this location for at most a couple of months...your husband will still love you, you'll hopefully learn a lot, and then you'll move on to another rotation. It's not worth getting worked up over.

 

[nope80]

Hmm, maybe..I know that there are people that definitely want to go to far away places and I'd rather not, given my personal situation. Its just one of those situations where nobody has been placed yet, there is room for shuffling and if you could make someones life a little easier, why not? I don't know...if someone else were in my position, i would expect the same for them..

 

[MrBurns10]

If you had children, I could maybe understand your concern. But it sounds like you just don't want to have to commute 36 miles, which is less than 30 minutes...people do this every single day, so I don't really understand what you're complaining about. Since your hours are likely to be very regular, just work it out with your husband so you'll drop him off at work and pick him up, or he can get a ride with a co-worker.

The nurse may not have been very nice, but don't push the issue. I don't think anyone is going to change anything about your current situation, and it's not worth the hassle. Good luck.

 

[nope80]

I got the cities mixed up - its 110 miles away.

 

[cpants]

Okay so, I have been trying to avoid as many "away" rotations during the third year as possible since I'd rather spend as little time away from my husband as possible. Also was considering getting pregnant sometime during the year...

Unfortunately for you, these are not reasons that anyone is going to care about. If you truly cannot get to the rotation because you don't have a car, that is one thing. But no one wants to commute a long distance or be away from their loved ones, so you are basically in the same boat as everyone else. Luckily family medicine isn't usually known for the long hours or early arrivals, so it might not be as painful as you're imagining.

If transportation is a huge issue, then it is time to get supervisors involved. I would go through the school first. Clerkship directors or even the dean of students could be of assistance. Make a personal appearance in these people's offices. Don't let some bureaucrat dictate a "personal policy" of not taking phone calls. Let her take the phone call from the dean of students' office if she doesn't want to talk to you. When talking to anyone make sure to be kind, humble, and use your manners. A little finesse can go along way in cases like this. If there are students who are interested in that location, find them and make the switch. That might end up being the simplest solution.

 

[nope80]

um turns out that it is actually 110 miles away 🙁 There are two towns in our state with the same name and when I double checked the zip I realized I had mapped the wrong area. Seriously, sucks👎

I don't want to approach anyone higher up because I don't want to create enemies and I also kind of got the impression that people could honestly care less. It definitely made me angry the way the lady treated me but at the end of the day, what am I going to gain from complaining about that? I just want to be within a reasonable distance from my husband.

The liason from our school wrote back and said that she looked at my schedule and I don't have an "excessive" number of away rotations. I'm like, um, isn't that a personal opinion? I have 4 months of away rotations (way too far to drive) and thats a lot for my husband and I! She also said that she has no control over placement and the nurse (the one that has a major attitude) is the one that handles all this. At the same time she told me that nobody has been definitely placed since the rotation isn't until this fall - so that leads me to believe that there is time for shuffling..anyway, the thing that upsets me is that nobody seems to care or understand this line of reasoning.

 

[Goran]

Is there a reason why you were placed while your other classmates haven't yet been? Did you end up submitting your paragraph? How this decision was made seems confusing -- is there a policy that everyone has a set amount of away rotations?

 

[nope80]

Is there a reason why you were placed while your other classmates haven't yet been? Did you end up submitting your paragraph? How this decision was made seems confusing -- is there a policy that everyone has a set amount of away rotations?

Exactly! Well the nurse in charge of placement told me I have been "placed" but the lady at our school said nothing has been confirmed for this rotation and the lady has contacted docs and is waiting to hear back from them whether they want to take on students. The nurse then sent me an email saying that I was tentatively placed in this location. But thats my whole point, I didn't get a chance to submit a paragraph before all this happened (the paragraphs were due this week) and I just called to figure out the situation last week when I was told we weren't allowed to call. The decision making is enormously confusing and the one person who is in control of this doesn't accept phone calls (probably because she doesn't want to debate or answer to students). The liason at our school keeps insisting that she has no control over placement; she is in charge of this rotation but apparently hands over placement to this other lady.

No there aren't any set amount of away rotations. Everything else was lottery and I was just trying to avoid being away in a rotation that wasn't lottery (where I thought I had more control). Apparently 4 months of being away isn't "excessive" 🙄🙄

 

[236116]

Exactly! Well the nurse in charge of placement told me I have been "placed" but the lady at our school said nothing has been confirmed for this rotation and the lady has contacted docs and is waiting to hear back from them whether they want to take on students. The nurse then sent me an email saying that I was tentatively placed in this location. But thats my whole point, I didn't get a chance to submit a paragraph before all this happened (the paragraphs were due this week) and I just called to figure out the situation last week when I was told we weren't allowed to call. The decision making is enormously confusing and the one person who is in control of this doesn't accept phone calls (probably because she doesn't want to debate or answer to students). The liason at our school keeps insisting that she has no control over placement; she is in charge of this rotation but apparently hands over placement to this other lady.

Sounds like Ms Wishy Washy at your school needs to man up. As for the other lady, she really can't refuse phone calls.

Honestly? I'd go to Ms Wishy Washy and tell her you're getting conflicting information (mention the paragraphs, no calls, etc). Tell her that you need her to assist you in resolving the issue (ie you need a close placement b/c you don't have transpo or whatever) and that if it cannot be resolved to "mutual satisfaction" within a reasonable timeframe, you will discuss it with their superiors.

 

[Snuffbox]

Like you said, the best thing to do is avoid making enemies in the administration. Sure, you want to change the situation but its not worth getting a bad reputation in the administration over it. Some things are worth fighting for, I don't putting up a fight will be fruitful in this regard.

 

[nope80]

Like you said, the best thing to do is avoid making enemies in the administration. Sure, you want to change the situation but its not worth getting a bad reputation in the administration over it. Some things are worth fighting for, I don't putting up a fight will be fruitful in this regard.

Its so frustrating because these low level administrators/secretaries have so much power, so much attitude, don't really care about the best interest of the students and you can't really argue with them!

 

[ANCAdoc]

At least with 110 miles one way, they will provide you housing (I assume). So, time is not an issue, just family relations. How long are you there for?

Chances are your FP rotation will be easy. I'd be surprised if you go in 5 days a week. My preceptor let me off one day a week (my choosing!). If he seems nice and understanding, and many FP docs are, then I would drop in a conversation how you miss your husband and how you were placed far away etc etc. Don't forget to be enthusiastic and work hard.

I agree with you in theory though. Doesn't make sense why they would put you far away if you have a family. If I ran the program that wouldn't happen, and this coming from a single person. Sometimes doing the right thing doesn't equate with fairness.

 

[JacobSilge]

Family med is pretty much going to be and 8-5 M-F rotation though, which means that even if your commute turns it into a 7-6 day, you'll still probably have more time to spend with your husband than you will for all of IM, Surgery, OB/Gyn, Inpt Peds, and maybe even psychiatry (if they make you take call).

Its so frustrating because these low level administrators/secretaries have so much power, so much attitude, don't really care about the best interest of the students and you can't really argue with them!

You just have to be prepared for lots of frustration with this year. You can't escape it and it won't be the last.

 

[SoCuteMD]

Hmm, maybe..I know that there are people that definitely want to go to far away places and I'd rather not, given my personal situation. Its just one of those situations where nobody has been placed yet, there is room for shuffling and if you could make someones life a little easier, why not? I don't know...if someone else were in my position, i would expect the same for them..

I don't get it. You've been placed but no one else has? Also, it sounds like you should have subnitted your paragraph with mention of your desire to be near your husband ASAP. Also, "trying" to get pregnant should not somehow exempt you from having to travel. 36 miles is not that far, and is a commute that people make every day for their entire careers.

 

[236116]

I don't get it. You've been placed but no one else has? Also, it sounds like you should have subnitted your paragraph with mention of your desire to be near your husband ASAP. Also, "trying" to get pregnant should not somehow exempt you from having to travel. 36 miles is not that far, and is a commute that people make every day for their entire careers.

110 miles.

Pennsylvania is kind of suck.

 

[nope80]

I don't get it. You've been placed but no one else has? Also, it sounds like you should have subnitted your paragraph with mention of your desire to be near your husband ASAP. Also, "trying" to get pregnant should not somehow exempt you from having to travel. 36 miles is not that far, and is a commute that people make every day for their entire careers.

Its not 36 miles - I thought it was but it was a city with the same name. Its really 110 miles. And I did write them a long email explaining this. I received a hasty thoughtless one line email back from the lady that doesnt take phone calls.

 

[nope80]

At least with 110 miles one way, they will provide you housing (I assume). So, time is not an issue, just family relations. How long are you there for?

Chances are your FP rotation will be easy. I'd be surprised if you go in 5 days a week. My preceptor let me off one day a week (my choosing!). If he seems nice and understanding, and many FP docs are, then I would drop in a conversation how you miss your husband and how you were placed far away etc etc. Don't forget to be enthusiastic and work hard.

I agree with you in theory though. Doesn't make sense why they would put you far away if you have a family. If I ran the program that wouldn't happen, and this coming from a single person. Sometimes doing the right thing doesn't equate with fairness.

Its for 4 weeks. We've never been apart for more than 2 weeks🙁 and this is going to be 4 weeks out of 4 months that I will have away rotations.

The funny thing was that the lady from our school said that they have over 500 doctors to choose from in the entire state and its just a matter of seeing which ones accept - lol, way to pull down the weight of your own argument! I was like, so if that is the case and nobody has been placed yet for sure then there is room for shuffling and contacting people that are a bit closer, right? Oh noo I'm not in charge of that, I don't know how she is handling it and who she is calling and who she has heard back from yet blah blah blah...

Basically the gist of things is that, if they actually wanted to help me they totally could. The key word is want. 👎

 

[Jamers]

Okay so, I have been trying to avoid as many "away" rotations during the third year as possible since I'd rather spend as little time away from my husband as possible. Also was considering getting pregnant sometime during the year...

Anyway, I was placed in a town 36 miles from my home and school to do a family medicine rotation. We were asked to submit paragraphs about ourselves to help them find a right fit - I contacted the office about this a few weeks ago and before submitting the paragraphs, I was placed in this location. To make matters worse the office that places us isn't part of the school (its a state rural family medicine placement organization) and when I spoke to the lady in charge at our school she took no responsibility and said that the other organization is responsible for placing. So anyway, she gives me their email and phone number. When I call, the person in charge of all this is a nurse with a major attitude. She seemed very adversarial and asked me where I got her phone number from because it was her PERSONAL POLICY to not accept any phone calls from students. I'm like huh? okay, so sorry🙁 She's like you have to send me emails only. So thats what I did. Sent her an email, no response, a week goes by, I am antsy to call but don't out of fear for being yelled at and so I email again. She just responded stating that I have been tentatively placed in the same location as of now. No explanation, no reason, no response to my long email stating exactly why I wanted to be at least a tad bit closer, nothing.

Its really hard because who wants to drive 36 miles twice a day everyday during rotations? I also would have to get another car somehow. It makes me so mad because this lady isn't on our side, she has a major attitude and seems like she is on a power trip. When I called her the first time, she started accusing me of "talking to her superior" about this - when really all I did was call and the person that picked up her line was apparently her superior and so I just asked her about it.

Anyway, I have no idea what to do? I tried to send her a nice diplomatic email but she just sent a one liner back making it impossible to communicate with her. The lady who is in charge of this at our school takes no responsibility and states that they are the ones to do the placing (yet she gets copied on all the emails). I also know they haven't placed anyone yet and there is a large number of docs to choose from so if they wanted to change my placement they totally could. Just don't know what to do next?

Any suggestions? Sorry it was so long..

You are going to get rotations like this and my own advice would be to just suck it up. If it makes you feel better I had one rotation that was over an hours drive away. I also had a rotation where I was stuck three hours away and had to scramble to find living arrangements. Long story short I ended living with a family of a former medical student; this family asked me very personal questions and pretty much gave me zero privacy so I slept my 4 weeks away in the on-call room. Just let the woman be a jerk, finish your rotation and put it behind you.

 

[QofQuimica]

OP, I'm sorry, but I agree with the people who are basically advising you to just suck it up for the four weeks. It sounds like your rotation coordinator is being pretty pig-headed based on what you've told us, but there are going to be many, many times during third year when you will feel like you've been majorly screwed. We have all had to deal with being treated in a way we perceive as unfair sometimes, even when there is no jerky administrator thrown into the mix. My school's administration is really good about working with students in situations like yours. But in the end, some people still had to go out into the boonies for their FP rotation, and they were just as unhappy about it as you are.

My advice is to accept the situation as it is, and instead focus your time and energy on figuring out how you and your husband can make this month as easy and pleasant as possible. (For example, if his job is flexible, can he come visit you? Or, can you go home on weekends?) You will be busy enough that the four weeks will go by quickly, and hopefully you will get a better placement for your next rotation. Hang in there, and best of luck. 🙂

 

[gouda]

Administration crap can be well..crappy, but it's only 1 month and it sounds like most of your rotations have been near home, so I don't think it's that bad. You'll likely go home on the weekends - and to be honest there are lots of things about clinical rotations that aren't fair, but this doesn't sound like something to lose sleep over. 1 month shouldn't ruin the marriage, 1 month shouldn't impact whether you're trying and/or are pregnant, if anything it's an inconvenience but I can think of a lot worse.

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

How does a commute hinder your trying to get preggers anyhow? At worst, you delay it by one month.

 

[Smurfette]

I agree with the majority above. Not sure what school you go to, but mine told us straight out that come 3rd year, we would need transportation to get to some rotation sites. Will any classmates be at the same site? If so, try to car pool. Also, at my school, most of us would go back home on weekends when we weren't on call...easy to hitch a ride.

several things that are probably contributing to others' similar reactions:
1. most people would like to stay home with their significant other. If the school used that as a reason to not send you out-of-town, they'd have to do the same for everybody. why should you be any different?
2. "thinking about getting pregnant" is not a reason to get exempted from an out-of-town rotation. Until you have a newborn at home, you're no different from any other female in your class that "may get pregnant"--planned or unplanned---during third year. (btw, 4th year would be a much better time IMO to be pregnant and allow much more flexibility in your schedule, and be less likely to delay your graduation, but that's another thread altogether).

Yes, it's inconvenient to be elsewhere for a rotation. I personally had 20 weeks worth of away rotations as a third year in three different locations (closest one was 90 miles, furthest 200), that in retrospect was a good thing. But if you raise a big stink about not wanting to go out of town, the administrators are going to be less willing to help you out (and if something happens that really necessitates you staying in town--such as an ill spouse or something else--you don't want to have burned any bridges.) Also consider that several classmates of yours may be trying to do the same thing you are (and every other year that your school has been doing this), so the powers-that-be may be sick of trying to accommodate people.

 

[nope80]

I guess the generally consensus is that it sucks, theres nothing I can do about it, so I just have to live with it.

And to the poster above, no I don't feel like I should be treated any differently. I think EVERYONE with a spouse,family, children, etc should be treated in this exact way and accomadated accordingly. If there is an issue of space in the hospital per rotation, I get it and can udnerstand. But if there is room for shuffling, etc then really they should. Whatever though, theres nothing I can do about it.

 

[SoCuteMD]

I guess the generally consensus is that it sucks, theres nothing I can do about it, so I just have to live with it.

And to the poster above, no I don't feel like I should be treated any differently. I think EVERYONE with a spouse,family, children, etc should be treated in this exact way and accomadated accordingly. If there is an issue of space in the hospital per rotation, I get it and can udnerstand. But if there is room for shuffling, etc then really they should. Whatever though, theres nothing I can do about it.

That's just absurd, and there's a huge difference between having a spouse and having children. Spouses are adult men/women who can fend for themselves. That is not equivalent to a child who needs mom/dad to feed, clothe, and transport him or her. What if you want a particular rotation at your university hosppital for its convenience and someone else wants it because it's the best place to do that particular rotation and they want to go into that specialty? You win simply because you have a spouse, and their career is their problem?

 

[silas2642]

I'm sorry, but you just don't have a good reason not to go to this rotation. You don't have kids and as far as we know, you don't have any medical conditions or other extenuating circumstances that would make it detrimental for you to be away for an extended period of time (i.e. 1 month). It's only 4 weeks, and if this is the hardest thing that you and your husband have to go through in your marriage, congratulations, you've just won the lottery.

You're just going to have to suck it up and get used to it because this is the life of a physician. 110 miles isn't that far away, and you'll most likely be able to see him on the weekends.

 

[nope80]

That's just absurd, and there's a huge difference between having a spouse and having children. Spouses are adult men/women who can fend for themselves. That is not equivalent to a child who needs mom/dad to feed, clothe, and transport him or her. What if you want a particular rotation at your university hosppital for its convenience and someone else wants it because it's the best place to do that particular rotation and they want to go into that specialty? You win simply because you have a spouse, and their career is their problem?

This type of thing happens all the time in that you have no idea why people picked certain rotations, certain locations etc - is it because they want to match into the field or is it for convenience? Nobody knows and theres nothing anyone can do about it.

I understand that it makes things more complicated for the school and at this point, i've come to terms with it. I just didn't exactly anticipate when I decided to go to med school at location X that I would be shipped off for several months to location Y thats all. What makes me even more upset is the general apathy.

 

[SoCuteMD]

This type of thing happens all the time in that you have no idea why people picked certain rotations, certain locations etc - is it because they want to match into the field or is it for convenience? Nobody knows and theres nothing anyone can do about it.

I understand that it makes things more complicated for the school and at this point, i've come to terms with it. I just didn't exactly anticipate when I decided to go to med school at location X that I would be shipped off for several months to location Y thats all. What makes me even more upset is the general apathy.

Nobody knows and so it ends up being random and a lottery. Everyone is equally screwed, rather than those of us who are single losing out because preference is given to those who are married.

It's not just "making things more complicated for the school." It's making things more difficult for your classmates AS WELL. I notice you said nothing re: my point that spouse =/= spouse+children. I suggest you get over yourself and figure out where school fits in your priorities. There is a very poor perception of residents and medical students who expect special treatment for the choices they have made in life.

 

[nope80]

Nobody knows and so it ends up being random and a lottery. Everyone is equally screwed, rather than those of us who are single losing out because preference is given to those who are married.

It's not just "making things more complicated for the school." It's making things more difficult for your classmates AS WELL. I notice you said nothing re: my point that spouse =/= spouse+children. I suggest you get over yourself and figure out where school fits in your priorities. There is a very poor perception of residents and medical students who expect special treatment for the choices they have made in life.

!! How is question and pursuing not being separated from my husband for four months (during the most difficult year of med school) expecting special treatment?????! I just don't get it. Seriously, i've already dropped the issue but am responding to you just for the sake of healthy argument and also because I'm a little jaded about this.

I UNDERSTAND that spouses does not equal children. I was never arguing that point. I heard a few years back they were fighting a single mom with kids at our school about an away rotation < insert biggest rolling eyes icon>

I would never want to do anything that puts students on unequal playing fields. Everybody should be treated equally but I adamantly feel like this idea of oh your married, no big deal, you will be shipped off, you can take it, etc is nonsense. Yes, I can take it but it will be unpleasant and if avoided should be.

When I came to med school, I assumed that the hospital had enough space for all the students. I had no idea that number of spots is an issue and hence the reason why we are shipped all over. It would be nice though if they aligned with hospitals in the area so that commuting would be possible. These are all kinks that the med school is responsible for working out - it may be more be work for them, but thats part of the job. All I can say is that if I am ever part of med school admin and a student approaches me about this, I would take a totally different stance that what they have at my school.

 

[SoCuteMD]

!! How is question and pursuing not being separated from my husband for four months (during the most difficult year of med school) expecting special treatment?????! I just don't get it. Seriously, i've already dropped the issue but am responding to you just for the sake of healthy argument and also because I'm a little jaded about this.

I UNDERSTAND that spouses does not equal children. I was never arguing that point. I heard a few years back they were fighting a single mom with kids at our school about an away rotation < insert biggest rolling eyes icon>

I would never want to do anything that puts students on unequal playing fields. Everybody should be treated equally but I adamantly feel like this idea of oh your married, no big deal, you will be shipped off, you can take it, etc is nonsense. Yes, I can take it but it will be unpleasant and if avoided should be.

When I came to med school, I assumed that the hospital had enough space for all the students. I had no idea that number of spots is an issue and hence the reason why we are shipped all over. It would be nice though if they aligned with hospitals in the area so that commuting would be possible. These are all kinks that the med school is responsible for working out - it may be more be work for them, but thats part of the job. All I can say is that if I am ever part of med school admin and a student approaches me about this, I would take a totally different stance that what they have at my school.

You made a choice - to get married. And now you have to figure out how to fit your professional life around your personal life. Earlier in the thread, you stated that you felt that people who were married should get the same treatment as those who have children. I know you feel that you shouldn't have to make that choice, but the number of couples I've met in medicine who have dealt with far more and much longer term separation makes me a little unsympathetic. One of my residents on medicine had two preteen boys, and she lives a 4 hour train ride from them. She takes the train there on her post-call day and back the next day twice a month.

It's not quite as easy as your school forming relationships with other hospitals in the area rather than hospitals all over. Med school-hospital alliances are an incredibly complex matter that involve contracts and money changing hands (which frankly just ISN'T happening these days).

And to the poster above, no I don't feel like I should be treated any differently. I think EVERYONE with a spouse,family, children, etc should be treated in this exact way and accomadated accordingly.

You say "everyone should be treated equally" but then argue for preference for married folks and folks with kids. So what does that mean for us single people? We just take whatever's left over after you have all chosen?

 

[nope80]

If all of the hospital alliances are within a reasonable distance then everyone is essentially treated equally because everyone can be at home and commute to their job during the day. I can't speak for the details of how it would work but my gut tells me that there has got to be a better way.

Yes, obviously, I did decide to get married but again, I had no idea that this happens in 3rd and that schools were so accepting of it. And for those that had harder schedules that you mention above, I think thats insane and nobody should have to endure that all under the cloak of "you made a decision to get married, you decided to have kids, now live with it". I think medicine swayed away from this "culture", its people would be enormously happier..!!

 

[SoCuteMD]

If all of the hospital alliances are within a reasonable distance then everyone is essentially treated equally because everyone can be at home and commute to their job during the day. I can't speak for the details of how it would work but my gut tells me that there has got to be a better way.

Yes, obviously, I did decide to get married but again, I had no idea that this happens in 3rd and that schools were so accepting of it. And for those that had harder schedules that you mention above, I think thats insane and nobody should have to endure that all under the cloak of "you made a decision to get married, you decided to have kids, now live with it". I think medicine swayed away from this "culture", its people would be enormously happier..!!

FWIW, I wouldn't trade my experiences at my school's outlying hospitals for anything. Knowing what I know about the hospitals nearby that we aren't affiliated, I'd pass on ever setting foot in there as a student. That being said, my school has many many affiliates (at last count I've accumulated 7 ID badges from the last 2 years). Rotating at distant hospitals gave me a chance to see medicine from a different perspective (I rotated at a rural location as well as a well-funded community hospital and each was about a 90 minute drive from my school). I also got the chance to get to know people in my class with whom I'd had limited interaction.

In the scheme of things, it's 4 months. You've already promised to spend a lifetime with this person, so 4 months apart really isn't that much. Maybe it's just your school not getting it's s--- together, and maybe there are reasons they've chosen these hospitals and not the ones closer. You seem thoroughly convinced it's the former, while I lean towards the latter.

 

[lilnoelle]

Hmmm... I think I'm alone in this, but I think its understandable that the Op wants to further pursue switching her rotation.

The system of placement for this rotation doesn't make any sense, they seem to be pretending to care about the individuals preferences, but are being passive aggressive about actual placement.

So, lets pretend she had an infant, the system wouldn't change and she'd still be in the same situation and not getting anywhere with the powers that be.

The administration needs to know whats going on, and as long as med students are too scared to speak up, they won't know.

Obviously, speaking to administration must be done carefully and with tact. Maybe, approaching the situation from the side rather than head on - and then bring up your concern during the conversation.

If the conversation doesn't go well with the admin, or if you feel like they're resistant to change or aren't particularly concerned about your plight, then you'll need to drop the issue. But I'm not convinced that recieving resistance from a secretary or two means you should completely give up the issue.

I understand why everyone says not to put up a fight - and I agree. But I don't feel like bringing up a concern to an administrator is putting up a fight. To me "putting up a fight" would be to continue trying to switch after getting resistance from administration, or after all of the spots have been locked in stone.

Maybe I feel that way because I attend a school where I feel comfortable talking to our deans if anything like this were to come up.
I suppose if I were at a school where the administrators weren't open to concerns/suggestions, then I might have a different opinion.

 

[xanthines]

Not to get off-topic or anything, but I pretty much agree with you. Medical school and residency are somewhat of a plague on society in my mind. You take generally bright, hard-working, compassionate people and turn them into jerks. Yes, this is obviously a blanket statement and there are exceptions, yada yada...

I actually resent my school's "touch-feely" or "empathy" classes because of this. It's kind of wasted on students in the first two years of school. It needs to be retooled for the 3rd and 4th yrs when the students get tainted and jaded by the old school folks or "the system" or whatever. Doubly so for residency.

That said, while annoying, your commute doesn't seem so bad. Of course, I used to commute in a big city (45min each way), so I can say that. 🙂

-X

Yes, obviously, I did decide to get married but again, I had no idea that this happens in 3rd and that schools were so accepting of it. And for those that had harder schedules that you mention above, I think thats insane and nobody should have to endure that all under the cloak of "you made a decision to get married, you decided to have kids, now live with it". I think medicine swayed away from this "culture", its people would be enormously happier..!!

 

[nope80]

Hmmm... I think I'm alone in this, but I think its understandable that the Op wants to further pursue switching her rotation.

The system of placement for this rotation doesn't make any sense, they seem to be pretending to care about the individuals preferences, but are being passive aggressive about actual placement.

So, lets pretend she had an infant, the system wouldn't change and she'd still be in the same situation and not getting anywhere with the powers that be.

The administration needs to know whats going on, and as long as med students are too scared to speak up, they won't know.

Obviously, speaking to administration must be done carefully and with tact. Maybe, approaching the situation from the side rather than head on - and then bring up your concern during the conversation.

If the conversation doesn't go well with the admin, or if you feel like they're resistant to change or aren't particularly concerned about your plight, then you'll need to drop the issue. But I'm not convinced that recieving resistance from a secretary or two means you should completely give up the issue.

I understand why everyone says not to put up a fight - and I agree. But I don't feel like bringing up a concern to an administrator is putting up a fight. To me "putting up a fight" would be to continue trying to switch after getting resistance from administration, or after all of the spots have been locked in stone.

Maybe I feel that way because I attend a school where I feel comfortable talking to our deans if anything like this were to come up.
I suppose if I were at a school where the administrators weren't open to concerns/suggestions, then I might have a different opinion.

Thanks for all the support guys. At least I don't feel like the only one🙁

So basically the lady at our school has been BCCing our communications to the block director (shes an md that oversees this rotation). I have only gone back and forth a few times w the lady at our school - she sent a few political, standard emails that totally did not address my concerns, BCC'd the director to protect herself from any future complaints, etc.

The directors email was completely useless and I know that I have to drop the issue. At least I did everything I could. She wrote a very polite, carefully crafted email (of course not addressing any of my concerns) but was like we have placed you in this location, have heard many positive things about this location from the past from students, will provide you with housing, end of story. As if any of those things were the issue. But whatever, nothing I can do about it now and its not worth creating enemies over. Hopefully this can serve as a lessson to all of us if we ever take on positions in medical school curriculums, things to keep in mind.

 

[Doctor J]

OP you have every right to argue this placement and should, as lilnoelle said, bring it up with the administration of your school. Clinical rotations are a big pain in the rear end to schedule but there is no reason at all why your school needs to place a student (who made it clear that she did not want to commute a distance) 110 miles away.

It is amazing the number of replies to this post that state, more or less, "suck it up". I get the feeling that these same students would, if told to by their clerkship coordinators, cheerfully eat a poop hot dog with sauerkraut, just as long as everyone *else* had to eat that same hot dog.

 

[nope80]

Not to get off-topic or anything, but I pretty much agree with you. Medical school and residency are somewhat of a plague on society in my mind. You take generally bright, hard-working, compassionate people and turn them into jerks. Yes, this is obviously a blanket statement and there are exceptions, yada yada...

I actually resent my school's "touch-feely" or "empathy" classes because of this. It's kind of wasted on students in the first two years of school. It needs to be retooled for the 3rd and 4th yrs when the students get tainted and jaded by the old school folks or "the system" or whatever. Doubly so for residency.

That said, while annoying, your commute doesn't seem so bad. Of course, I used to commute in a big city (45min each way), so I can say that. 🙂

-X

Ironically our school is so big on those humanities courses. We learn all about the importance of treating the patient in the context of their "life", the person as a "whole", taking into account factors beyond the science of medicine and seeing the patient as a member of their society, etc etc but yet doctors and students, their personal lives, the things outside of their career that make them human, none of those things are ever integrated or taken into account in the "system".

 

[nope80]

OP you have every right to argue this placement and should, as lilnoelle said, bring it up with the administration of your school. Clinical rotations are a big pain in the rear end to schedule but there is no reason at all why your school needs to place a student (who made it clear that she did not want to commute a distance) 110 miles away.

It is amazing the number of replies to this post that state, more or less, "suck it up". I get the feeling that these same students would, if told to by their clerkship coordinators, cheerfully eat a poop hot dog with sauerkraut, just as long as everyone *else* had to eat that same hot dog.

What can I do? She wrote "we do not make changes in placement for concerns such as being close to a spouse".

 

[Doctor J]

What can I do? She wrote "we do not make changes in placement for concerns such as being close to a spouse".

You cannot do anything right now except remember it, years from now. When you receive a phone call from someone asking for you to fork over thirty pieces of silver to go to an alumni weekend. You will cheerfully ask for the director of the alumni foundation. Then, you will carefully explain to this person why, even though you are incredibly generous and give thousands every year to charity, you will not be giving a penny of your hard earned cash to your old alma mater.

This is how attitudes towards student relations change. Money is the only motivator that these institutions respond to.

 

[peppy]

I think the reason they are being so obstinate about this is because it's just easier to take the position "It's our policy not to change rotation sites" than to shuffle everyone around as each student makes a different special request.
I think your only chance of pursuing this further would be to talk to your classmates who have an FP rotation scheduled that month too and see if one of them would be willing to potentially swap with you. Then you can go together to the administration and say that both of you want to swap spots. They might be more willing to do that since it involves less legwork for them.

However, honestly, it is just 4 weeks and there is an excellent chance you will be able to go home to see your husband on weekends. I really don't think it's worth making a big deal over this. We all have rotations we don't like for one reason or another, but the time goes by fast and you get through it somehow.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Honestly I'd be bugged, too, just by how they're not being clear in how they assign things and they don't seem to be following their own policy. Why assign you before giving you a chance to submit your requests? If they weren't going to take personal requests seriously, why give you the feeling initially that they would? To me, it sounds like that one person is just being lazy and maybe not really doing what the school wants her to do. I think it would be appropriate to mention it to someone in the administration of your school in a non-whiny way.

I've also got to say that I'd be bugged with having 4 months of out of town rotations my 3rd year. My school has 2 clinical campuses. We pick one and do all our 3rd year rotations there. We do have a month long required rural rotation 4th year, but other than that, you can stay put. IMO, it makes my life a little easier.

 

[nope80]

Honestly I'd be bugged, too, just by how they're not being clear in how they assign things and they don't seem to be following their own policy. Why assign you before giving you a chance to submit your requests? If they weren't going to take personal requests seriously, why give you the feeling initially that they would? To me, it sounds like that one person is just being lazy and maybe not really doing what the school wants her to do. I think it would be appropriate to mention it to someone in the administration of your school in a non-whiny way.

I've also got to say that I'd be bugged with having 4 months of out of town rotations my 3rd year. My school has 2 clinical campuses. We pick one and do all our 3rd year rotations there. We do have a month long required rural rotation 4th year, but other than that, you can stay put. IMO, it makes my life a little easier.

Okay so i'm not totally crazy in thinking that 4 months is a lot?

The response I got was an email stating that that was not a quote "excessive" amount of time to be away with an attachment containing my 3rd year schedule - as if I didn't already know🙄

Yes, I do think they are being totally lazy and making their own lives easier by saying its not their policy. I was told that there were over 500 locations in the state and around 15 people doing that rotation at the same time - doing the math it would seem entirely unlikely that they couldn't find a location slightly closer than 110 miles away. I could always respond to the directors email but the question is, is it worth my time and are they really going to do anything?

 

[QofQuimica]

It is amazing the number of replies to this post that state, more or less, "suck it up". I get the feeling that these same students would, if told to by their clerkship coordinators, cheerfully eat a poop hot dog with sauerkraut, just as long as everyone *else* had to eat that same hot dog.

Not at all. It's completely an issue of picking your battles. You cannot win in every situation, and earning a pyrrhic victory by going over these people's heads really isn't going to help the OP's case in the long run. The people she is antagonizing hold all the power, while she essentially holds none. I'm not saying that gives them the right to abuse her (which forcing her to eat a poop hot dog would exemplify). However, the emails she is receiving are making it pretty darn clear that the powers that be have no intention of accomodating her. It may be unfair, and it's clearly aggravating. But unfortunately it's the reality she finds herself in at present.

I could always respond to the directors email but the question is, is it worth my time and are they really going to do anything?

In my opinion no, as I explained above. If you really feel like you need to say something, wait until after your rotation grades are in and *then* talk to someone higher up in administration who will hopefully be a bit more sympathetic. I think finishing the rotation first before giving constructive feedback lends to your credibility anyway, because that way no one can possibly accuse you of being a whiner. to you. 🙂

 

[MDInvestor]

Okay so i'm not totally crazy in thinking that 4 months is a lot?

The fact that out of the past 40+ replies, you assumed that the tiny percentage of people that agreed with you means that 4 months is excessive??

I think the administration is there to facilitate these rotations, not to tuck you into bed at the dream rotation schedule.

As for you having a husband giving you special preference: too much entitlement. We all have families or loved ones. In fact, I would say that those of us who are married should be more secure in their relationship and able to handle 4 weeks/months apart with weekends visits than a brand new budding relationship. Chances are that one of your classmate just met the girl of his dreams- he's starting to try to get to know her and vooom.. He gets sent off to do 4 weeks 200 miles away. The girl gets bored and moves on. Relationship crushed before it had a chance.

YOU on the other hand are married. You don't have any children. Children depend on you. They need you to cloth them, provide them shelter, feed them, etc. You don't have any children. Your husband is not a child. He can hang out with his buddies, make his own food, watch movies, play video games, join a club, make new friends, etc while you are gone. He can *gasp* come visit you during the week or you go visit him.

In theory, shouldn't the people who are just starting out in relationships have preference over married people? In the end, just do a simple lottery or random assignments and move on. Create a simple form for students to submit mutual trades as long as its several months in advance. Simple systems are key. I commend the administration for not bowing to every demand. If they worked hard and got you a rotation elsewhere (ie. 36 miles away vs 120), you would still be unhappy as that was your original post. Why waste their time.

A few posts ago, Doctor J, said the majority of people would eat a poop hot dog. The fact is that the majority is not as whiny as the tiny vocal minority. In fact, the majority sees the situation as a comparison between eating a hot dog vs steak. We have no problem eating hot dogs with some steaks thrown in. We won't whine when don't get our precious steak and start demanding that since we pay to be become physicians, we deserve respect (ie. steak dinners). We're happy with life and don't need it served on a silver platter.

You are no different than the mom who works at wal-mart who has to be away from their family on Easter because she has to work. No different than the mom who was shipped off to Iraq for war. The intern who just spend Thanksgiving weekend tending to the druggies in the ER instead of with her elderly parents. This will hardly be the last challenge to your marriage. Learn to adapt better and you will be a happier person. Everyone wants to blame someone but it doesn't work. Everyone goes through these types of small struggles, not just medical students. Adapt and enjoy what life throws at you.

 

[DaveinDallas]

While I'll admit, I've briefly skimmed the post, seems like you need to STFU and STFD and continue the mission. In other words, it's 4 months, so what? I've done 2 YEARS and 7 months away from my wife and two kids going home only on weekends when I didn't have an exam the following monday and then for 5 months during 3rd year clerkships. Why? Well, I want to be a doctor and that's what I have to do....Now, during residency, we're not doing this anymore, they'll be with me.

4 months and home on weekends is nothing. I lived at home during my FP clerkship, drove 50 miles one way to work at 0530 every morning, drove home another 50 miles just in time to tuck the kiddos in, studied my requisite 2 hours a night, and hit it again.....for two months straight and still passed the exam and walked out with a great letter......You need to rethink your priorities, it's not going to get any better until you're out of residency....maybe..

Your relationship will survive unless it's rocky to start. If you're thinking of having kids and being an intern/resident, face the fact that you probably won't see them as much as you'd like to. Consider the practical realities of the situation instead of what you'd like them to be.....and act accordingly.

 

[lilnoelle]

I also think 4 months is excessive for anyone - dating, married, kids, single, doesn't matter.

And honestly, the fact that they're asking her to do an away rotation is not necessarily the issue.
If they came out and said the assignment of location was a random thing and that placement was not negotiable, then fine, no big deal.
But thats not what they did. Choosing placement location prior to the deadline to turn in a request is ridiculous.

If the arrangement is that we are simply supposed to suck it up and put up with whatever is dished out to us - whatever, I can deal with it.
But pretending to care about our educational experience (which I happen to niavely believe my administration actually does care) and then not following through is worse (in my opinion) that just telling me to suck it up in the first place.

 

[nope80]

The fact that out of the past 40+ replies, you assumed that the tiny percentage of people that agreed with you means that 4 months is excessive??

I think the administration is there to facilitate these rotations, not to tuck you into bed at the dream rotation schedule.

As for you having a husband giving you special preference: too much entitlement. We all have families or loved ones. In fact, I would say that those of us who are married should be more secure in their relationship and able to handle 4 weeks/months apart with weekends visits than a brand new budding relationship. Chances are that one of your classmate just met the girl of his dreams- he's starting to try to get to know her and vooom.. He gets sent off to do 4 weeks 200 miles away. The girl gets bored and moves on. Relationship crushed before it had a chance.

YOU on the other hand are married. You don't have any children. Children depend on you. They need you to cloth them, provide them shelter, feed them, etc. You don't have any children. Your husband is not a child. He can hang out with his buddies, make his own food, watch movies, play video games, join a club, make new friends, etc while you are gone. He can *gasp* come visit you during the week or you go visit him.

In theory, shouldn't the people who are just starting out in relationships have preference over married people? In the end, just do a simple lottery or random assignments and move on. Create a simple form for students to submit mutual trades as long as its several months in advance. Simple systems are key. I commend the administration for not bowing to every demand. If they worked hard and got you a rotation elsewhere (ie. 36 miles away vs 120), you would still be unhappy as that was your original post. Why waste their time.

A few posts ago, Doctor J, said the majority of people would eat a poop hot dog. The fact is that the majority is not as whiny as the tiny vocal minority. In fact, the majority sees the situation as a comparison between eating a hot dog vs steak. We have no problem eating hot dogs with some steaks thrown in. We won't whine when don't get our precious steak and start demanding that since we pay to be become physicians, we deserve respect (ie. steak dinners). We're happy with life and don't need it served on a silver platter.

You are no different than the mom who works at wal-mart who has to be away from their family on Easter because she has to work. No different than the mom who was shipped off to Iraq for war. The intern who just spend Thanksgiving weekend tending to the druggies in the ER instead of with her elderly parents. This will hardly be the last challenge to your marriage. Learn to adapt better and you will be a happier person. Everyone wants to blame someone but it doesn't work. Everyone goes through these types of small struggles, not just medical students. Adapt and enjoy what life throws at you.

Um, so a few things. I never thought that our relationship wouldn't survive and that this would be the hardest thing my marriage would face or anything even remotely ridiculous like that. Of course it won't affect my relationship and obviously won't be anything close to what relationships can face at times. All I was simply trying to state was that why put us through inconvenience if it can be avoided..?!?

What does a mom having to work at walmart on easter have to do with anything? Just because some people have to go through difficulties, we should spread that out over everyone and make sure that all people, whether they work in walmart, are an intern, or a war veteran have to be inconvenienced as much as possible? Huh?

 

[SoCuteMD]

OP you have every right to argue this placement and should, as lilnoelle said, bring it up with the administration of your school. Clinical rotations are a big pain in the rear end to schedule but there is no reason at all why your school needs to place a student (who made it clear that she did not want to commute a distance) 110 miles away.

It is amazing the number of replies to this post that state, more or less, "suck it up". I get the feeling that these same students would, if told to by their clerkship coordinators, cheerfully eat a poop hot dog with sauerkraut, just as long as everyone *else* had to eat that same hot dog.

No, I've just learned how to play the game and have little tolerance for whining. A friend of mine did 3 years of medical school away from her husband, including all of her first pregnancy. I have little tolerance for people who whine excessively about how things aren't "fair."