how to kick *ss on anesthesia rotations?

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Sammich81

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I didn't get to do a formal anesthesia rotation during my 3rd year, just got experience where I could. Other than reading up on the relevant phys and pharm, what makes a good medical student on anesthesia? Any recommended books? My first real anesthesia rotation is the one that's going to give me my LOR so I would prefer not to look like a total jack*ss. It seems so different than the usual inpatient/clinic rotations, or even surgery. Also, I applied for an away rotation at the place where I hope to match, so I really can't afford to screw up. I've done well in terms of evals on other rotations, and am not entirely without personality ;) so I hope that's a decent start...

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books: the obvious answer to this is basics of anesthesia by Miller, there of course are others, but this is the one most often used.

how to stand out? in some respects its a little harder in anesthesia to standout b/c their routine and the type of patient care they provide is different from what most fields of medicine do and what you may be used to. when you do an anesthesia evaluation it is for a totally different reason than why the H and P is done which your training has made you more comfortable with. realize that most peeps who rotate through anesthesia are there for one of two reasons: intubations, and an easy rotation, and often leave early in the day. so come early and stay late. take call. do as many preop evals as possible (even if they have already been done officially). show that you are there because you are taking the first steps to becoming an anesthesiologist. have the attitude that this is what i may do for the rest of my life and your mind will begin to work like theirs and you can more easily think of good questions to ask about the field and the way it is practiced. the hardest thing is knowledge base because your whole med school career has been treating disease in the traditional fashion and now you have to shift gears a little. therefore read up as much as possible and let it show. the CA-3s will let you do more because they have good procedural stats by then unlike the CA1s and 2s who are trying to pad their quotas.

this is the best i can do for advice. some of its a no brainer, but hopefully you will get some better advice that will help give you the right attitude, perspective and edge to get the most out of the rotation. good luck.
 
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i wouldn't worry two much about reading to impress. definitely read anesthesia to understand the cases and learn more for yourself. but work hard, show a lot of facetime, come early and help set up rooms, never turn down a chance to physically do something, help wheel pts. etc. just be someone that everyone likes to be around and have around...easier said than done.
 
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The best advise I can give you is to let them know you want to do anesthesiology. Ask lots of questions without being a pest. If the attending comes to the room to give the resident a break, stay and ask some questions about the case. I'll admit, it can be hard to stand out on an anesthesiology rotation because of the nature of the field, but you can make an impression.
 
i can tell you what would impress me....just somebody that seems interested and asks questions. i'm not too impressed if you rattle off all that you've memorized (maybe a little as long as you're not arrogant). But also, if the med students hung around a little longer, eventually the'll stand out because they usually all dissappear early.

I would also be impressed if they were able to realize that watching someone do a case is very very different than being the one doing the case. the psychology changes that first moment your attending leaves your room when you are a CA-1. that's when your brain really starts thinking. :scared:
 
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i also asked a TON of personal questions of the attendings. jeez, if you really want to get people to notice you, just get them to talk about themselves. they love little listeners as they go on about themselves.

i asked all attendings and residents 'why anesthesia?' because frankly I could not see what was so good about it. part of your rotation is about seeing if you like it and i'm sure your brains will be thinking 'is this what I want to do?' here is your chance to ask the residents subtle questions.
 
ultm8frisbee said:
The best advise I can give you is to let them know you want to do anesthesiology. Ask lots of questions without being a pest. If the attending comes to the room to give the resident a break, stay and ask some questions about the case. I'll admit, it can be hard to stand out on an anesthesiology rotation because of the nature of the field, but you can make an impression.

I would add to this that you definitely want to try and work with the residents and if possible attendings one on one.
I initially did a 2 week rotation during surgery as a 3rd year and chose to work mostly with the CRNA's. It was great b/c alot of them had been there forever and knew a ton. Also, they pretty much let me do everything because again, they had been there forever didn't need the procedures. Only problem was that when it came to evaluations, none of the attendings really knew me.
During 4th year, I made an effort to work with residents and when posible one on one with attendings and rocked the rotation, because now the attendings actually knew who i was.
 
i agree w/ all teh above.

but seriously, try to get to know the residents AND attendings on a personal basis. No offense, but everyone that's going into anesthesiology nowadays is 'smart'. people will know their pharm, their physio, whatever. Mk conversation w/ residents and attendings. It's hard at first, cuz like ppl said above anesthesiology is a very different field. on my first rotation, i felt sort of intimidated. Never had such one on one exposure w/ and attending/resident. Think about it, when you are on medicine, surgery, or X rotation there are always atleast 5 ppl around you. In the OR it's just YOU and the person.

bottom line...do things that will mk you STICK OUT. honestly, as long as you're not completely incompetent, I dont think they will expect you to know EVERYTHIGN there is about anesthesiology. But do mk the effort like the guys said to ask questions and learn procedures. ANother thing that someone told me was dont jump from room to room. Stick with one resident/attending the entire day. Also, yes do procedures, but dont mk it look like that's ONLY what you want to do.

goodluck
 
the ones in my class who got the impressive anesth residencies were impressive a$$-kissers. it's all politics.
 
threepeas said:
books: the obvious answer to this is basics of anesthesia by Miller, there of course are others, but this is the one most often used.

how to stand out? in some respects its a little harder in anesthesia to standout b/c their routine and the type of patient care they provide is different from what most fields of medicine do and what you may be used to. when you do an anesthesia evaluation it is for a totally different reason than why the H and P is done which your training has made you more comfortable with. realize that most peeps who rotate through anesthesia are there for one of two reasons: intubations, and an easy rotation, and often leave early in the day. so come early and stay late. take call. do as many preop evals as possible (even if they have already been done officially). show that you are there because you are taking the first steps to becoming an anesthesiologist. have the attitude that this is what i may do for the rest of my life and your mind will begin to work like theirs and you can more easily think of good questions to ask about the field and the way it is practiced. the hardest thing is knowledge base because your whole med school career has been treating disease in the traditional fashion and now you have to shift gears a little. therefore read up as much as possible and let it show. the CA-3s will let you do more because they have good procedural stats by then unlike the CA1s and 2s who are trying to pad their quotas.

this is the best i can do for advice. some of its a no brainer, but hopefully you will get some better advice that will help give you the right attitude, perspective and edge to get the most out of the rotation. good luck.

Threepeas is on the mark.

An average student that performs this will get a residency slot.
 
jetproppilot said:
Threepeas is on the mark.

An average student that performs this will get a residency slot.

JPP...are you still lifting..I may need a training partner when I get back to the states :thumbup:
 
GMO2003 said:
JPP...are you still lifting..I may need a training partner when I get back to the states :thumbup:

Yeah, GMO...but still struggling to gain the discipline I used to have.

Especially hard at the moment since our first floor is being renovated (read:no kitchen) so we order out for every meal.

Have about ten pounds of fat I didnt have pre-katrina. :barf:

its all good though. I'll get the groove back.
 
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Anesthesiology, like radiology, is one of those specialties where you can't get a lot of responsibility as a medical student. It's different enough from your bread-and-butter internal medicine, for example, that everyone knows students come in not knowing a thing about anesthesia. So the expectations are:

1) You don't know anything, and you don't necessarily need to start out knowing anything to impress.
2) You don't have to scut to impress.

In my experience, the best way to get the most out of an anesthesia rotation is:

1) When an attending comes in to give a break to the resident or CRNA, stay around and ask questions about the case. (It helps to carry around a pocket manual of some sort so you can read the outline about how to manage that case -- I started out using NMS in my first rotation, which is tiny and cheap but very sufficient for a first-time, and eventually moved on to the Massachusetts General Hospital handbook.) Take your break after the resident returns.

2) Stay for the entire case if it's a short case. If it's a long case, do as the person in the room suggests to you (some might say leave, go to another room to get some procedures, and return for the end of the case).

3) Think of teaching topics to discuss and ask questions. Ask lots of questions, questions are appreciated and it's not how much you know but how your questions show you've thought about the case that really matter.

4) Read something from time to time and ask questions about it (shows you're reading). The first thing I read was the UpToDate article on how pulse oximetry works -- nothing thorough and the article wasn't even written by an anesthesiologist -- but again it's not what you know but what you're curious about that matters.

5) Look for ways to have more patient care responsibility even though you'll have little in anesthesia. You do learn a lot from these experiences, especially if you push for someone to assign them to you.

--> Meet the patient in the pre-op area and go through the anesthesia pre-op checklist, asking questions like when was your last meal, etc. DO THE PHYSICAL EXAM (bring a stethoscope, do a heart-lung exam, and do an airway exam).

--> Learn to put EKG leads on (very useful, whatever specialty you pick).

--> Offer to round on post-op and epidural patients (you can learn a lot, especially if you do them on your own).

--> READ THE OLD CHART and look for old anesthesia records.

--> If your hospital has paper records, ask to be taught how to chart (you'll learn a lot).

--> Choose one or two specific tasks to be responsible for during a case (such as checking the eyes/nose, monitoring the urine output, charting, etc) and do it for the whole case (again, you'll learn a lot and it'll help you learn to chart).

--> BE AROUND FOR THE END OF THE CASE if possible -- e.g. if you intubated, extubate!

--> Ask to be the hands for "non-patient procedure" things like drawing up drugs, hanging fluid, hanging blood, etc. (You really, really don't know how to do these things when you start out as a medical student. Do them, and it keeps you from getting bored during the case.)
 
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jetproppilot said:
Yeah, GMO...but still struggling to gain the discipline I used to have.

Especially hard at the moment since our first floor is being renovated (read:no kitchen) so we order out for every meal.

Have about ten pounds of fat I didnt have pre-katrina. :barf:

its all good though. I'll get the groove back.

you'll get it back...just remember to take it slow and easy

I remember a quote from Ed Coan a couple years back...he basically said that there comes a point where his strength eventually was exceeding his body's ability to lift heavier and heavier weight...I've been lifting for almost 20 years and I've gotta say that I may have to seriously back off on my poundages or I'll end up crippling myself...I love to squat and deadlift...I haven't benched for almost 2 months and felt like messing around with chest the other day and repped out with 120lbs DBs on the flat bench...insane...nonetheless, I am a mere mortal when compared to Jesse Marunde, Phil Phister, and Mark Phillipe...they are freaking monsters...Marius Pudzianowski is a phucking animal
 
GMO2003 said:
you'll get it back...just remember to take it slow and easy

I remember a quote from Ed Coan a couple years back...he basically said that there comes a point where his strength eventually was exceeding his body's ability to lift heavier and heavier weight...I've been lifting for almost 20 years and I've gotta say that I may have to seriously back off on my poundages or I'll end up crippling myself...I love to squat and deadlift...I haven't benched for almost 2 months and felt like messing around with chest the other day and repped out with 120lbs DBs on the flat bench...insane...nonetheless, I am a mere mortal when compared to Jesse Marunde, Phil Phister, and Mark Phillipe...they are freaking monsters...Marius Pudzianowski is a phucking animal

Since this turned into a side note on lifting...what are your thoughts on how to increase weight when it starts to hurt your wrists/elbows? I am by no means a heavy lifter- I'm a girl, 5'3 and I weigh about 117, but I'm at the point in liting where I'm tired at the end of a set but not usually very sore. But when I go up in weight I feel like I lose my form. So what should I do?
 
Sammich81 said:
Since this turned into a side note on lifting...what are your thoughts on how to increase weight when it starts to hurt your wrists/elbows? I am by no means a heavy lifter- I'm a girl, 5'3 and I weigh about 117, but I'm at the point in liting where I'm tired at the end of a set but not usually very sore. But when I go up in weight I feel like I lose my form. So what should I do?

If you are an experienced lifter and you are losing your form on heavier weights then it is too heavy for you. You can try to do less reps or sets until you build your strength.

your CNS/muscles are going to get stronger/more efficient at a quicker pace than your joints. You need to give your joints more time to catch up. When I started repping 315 on bench press I could feel every joint bone and muscle being pushed to their limits and decided to stop there.

also you try experimenting with different grips to reduce strees on the wrists(neutral grip curls) or different grips to improve wrist strength (reverse grip curls).

You can also try platemates (or something similar) on dumbells or barbells to increase your weight more slowly.

http://befittoday.com/platemates.htm

Don't use soreness as a gauge for how hard you worked yourself.

passed the CSCS exam but waiting for may when I get my bachelor degree to be fully certified.
 
goodadvice from jennyboo above. round on the patient the next day. i never did that. also, ask if you can chart or draw up drugs.
 
Sammich81 said:
Since this turned into a side note on lifting...what are your thoughts on how to increase weight when it starts to hurt your wrists/elbows? I am by no means a heavy lifter- I'm a girl, 5'3 and I weigh about 117, but I'm at the point in liting where I'm tired at the end of a set but not usually very sore. But when I go up in weight I feel like I lose my form. So what should I do?

Sam...I PM'ed you :thumbup:
 
In short form heres what I feek works both from my experiences during my two electives and based on speaking with a number of attendings and some PD's.

Show interest, both by reading, asking intelligent questions, expresiing interest in doing procedures, asking to see cases that interest you and attending all the lectures. ( But dont be upset if your not doing alot of hands on stuff especially if youre in a super private large academic place.)

Find an attending that you really enjoy working with and try to work with them as frequently as possible. This way youll have someone hwo can write you a kick ass LOR. In addition youll be able to start to learn the art of anesthesia in this manner.

Be careful with kissing up. While a little might help you if you kiss up too much it most ceratinly will bury you. I know of a student who did an elective at his number 1 program, he was a good student with good grades etc, etc but he anoyed the hell out of everybody by kissing up too much and asking too many questions. Well quess waht happened when it came time to interveiw his mentor told the PD to absolutely not consider this person for their program. I have heard many similar stories.

Just some of my observations.
Hope it helps
 
That was the sound of a med student getting slapped for kissing too much ass.

In all seriousness, I am doing an "audition" elective where I want to match. In general the attendings at my school (Univ of Virginia) don't recommend rotating away, but I am so specific in where I want to go (geographic restrictions) that I really want to go there and feel out the program. My significant other is a resident at this hospital, not in anesthesia. Hearing this makes me nervous! Should I not do this rotation? :scared: As I said my evals of 3rd year have all been positive. I don't know if residents/attendings would actually mention it in an evaluation if they thought a med student was overeager.
 
I think balance is key. If you're quiet all the time, people might think you aren't interested. If you talk all the time, you are bound to get on someone's nerves.

Ask enough questions to show your interest in the field but there's certainly no need to pepper the attending with enough questions to make his head explode :)
 
That's good advice for any rotation, really. :thumbup:
 
i can tell you what would impress me....just somebody that seems interested and asks questions. i'm not too impressed if you rattle off all that you've memorized (maybe a little as long as you're not arrogant). But also, if the med students hung around a little longer, eventually the'll stand out because they usually all dissappear early.

I would also be impressed if they were able to realize that watching someone do a case is very very different than being the one doing the case. the psychology changes that first moment your attending leaves your room when you are a CA-1. that's when your brain really starts thinking. :scared:
 
So Dr.Supahfresh: What exactly do you mean by "I would be impressed if they were able to realize that watching someone do a case is very very different than being the one doing the case?" I'm a medical student interested in landing an Anesthesiology residency....
 
I'm in private practice and have medical students rotate with us on a regular basis. The ones who impress me most are timely, interested, and affable....they do the small things that set them apart.

I had one student, an MS4 pursuing anesthesiology, who would never introduce himself to my patients. It absolutely drove me crazy, because I had to introduce him EVERY TIME. On a busy day I might interview 25-40 patients, and speak to their families, so it got to be exhausting. He rarely asked questions (which I enjoy answering) nor jumped on opportunities to get his hands dirty. I wasn't impressed.

In contrast, I had a GREAT student, who spent his very first MS3 rotation with me. I didn't expect him to know jack about our field, but he made a point to learn how to take an anesthesiology directed interview, assess an airway, and was very interested in "doing things" skill-wise. He was polite to my patients and their families, and it was easy to see his questions were due to interest, not for kissing up. He also did some reading on things we had discussed during the day, without my asking. Total stud that kid.

In summary: smile and look people in the eye, shake hands, do 5 min of reading a night, talk (but not too much) and try to bloody up your gloves whenever the opportunity presents itself.
 
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So Dr.Supahfresh: What exactly do you mean by "I would be impressed if they were able to realize that watching someone do a case is very very different than being the one doing the case?" I'm a medical student interested in landing an Anesthesiology residency....

When you realize "oh ****, this guy's life in is MY hands and I could potentially kill him if I eff up. " and become acutely aware of what you don't know, it's a different game. Watching someone else play with someone's vitals isn't scary b/c you have no skin in the game and you know they know what they're doing and can handle it.

Same is true in rads. Nothing scary about watching someone read a PE study. But when you're doing it the thought of "oh ****, if I miss this, I'm gonna kill the patient." changes everything.
 
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