how to manage student debt

[Debt Free Doctor]

I read page one but got too lazy to read the other 4 pages. How were you able to receive such high credit limits on all these credit cards? It does not seem like a bad idea. But at the age of 21, there is no way I can get a credit card with a $45k limit to put a year of medical school tuition on. Let alone enough cards to juggle almost $250k in debt. I am however juggling living expenses on 0% APR which is helping out a lot.

good job for juggling living expenses on 0% APR
that's how i started at the early phases...
stretch and use your credit as often as possible, responsibly...
then you will be rewarded with both higher credit score and limit

just be sure to call and ask for credit limit periodically
and apply for cards that gives you good bonus cash back or savings regularly tho not too frequently (and the frequency is really a personal preference)

i start with charging trimester of 15k every 4 months...
then before you know it i carried a whole year's tuition on my credit @ 0%

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[Debt Free Doctor]

I read page one but got too lazy to read the other 4 pages. How were you able to receive such high credit limits on all these credit cards? It does not seem like a bad idea. But at the age of 21, there is no way I can get a credit card with a $45k limit to put a year of medical school tuition on. Let alone enough cards to juggle almost $250k in debt. I am however juggling living expenses on 0% APR which is helping out a lot.

it may be helpful to read the remainder of the thread in response to the pathology's comment

you basically have to do what DFD considers telling a "white lie"

and make up your own mind.

pathology strikes me as a very very up-right person with strict definition of income.
for instance when credit card company literally tell you (on the phone or in writing) to include student loans of 80-100k per year as income and your parent's income as part of your income... i know pathology will refuse to do so and be happy with a lower credit limit.

 

[dgu334]

I've read through all 5 pages and although I'm only a medical student with limited financial knowledge, I don't think what DFD did applies to >90% of current students. First, the entire credit card scheme will only negate the interest aspect of student loans. You will still need to eventually pay the principle. Second, you have to be very very financially cunning and knowledgable about how banks/credit cards/credit scores/debt/etc works because 1 missed payment or a mis-timing can cause this entire house of cards to crumple. Third, putting the above effort into understanding the system and following through with a plan of action can be pretty time consuming and I would imagine takes quite a bit of effort. Time and energy may be available to you during pre-clinicals but you may not have much of it during 3rd year, which can lead to missed payment/mis-timing. And finally, for many traditional students who go straight into medical school out of college, our credit limits are a mere couple of thousand $s and what DFD suggests about increasing your credit limit simply won't work for us because it takes at least a year or two to get your credit limit from 4 to 5 figures.

Tl dr Risks and hassle is not worth it personally. Kudos to DFD for staying on top of everything and ending up with 0 debt. Although what she proposes is not feasible for many, reading through what she did can serve as a crash-course on finances and the like.

 

[pathologyDO]

it may be helpful to read the remainder of the thread in response to the pathology's comment

you basically have to do what DFD considers telling a "white lie"

and make up your own mind.

pathology strikes me as a very very up-right person with strict definition of income.
for instance when credit card company literally tell you (on the phone or in writing) to include student loans of 80-100k per year as income and your parent's income as part of your income... i know pathology will refuse to do so and be happy with a lower credit limit.

More like a professional student that makes responsible decisions. What you suggest we do to raise our credit limit is considered credit fraud. Please, if you can give me one link that proves you can include your entire parents income on a credit card application and count it as income, I would reconsider. Everything I have looked up has clearly stated you cannot list their entire income - my definition, as you say, is actually NOT MY definition at all. It is the definition set forth by the credit card companies that you create a contract with when you open these credit cards and pile debt onto them.

 

[ftp902]

Just take whatever you want to take. I personally think this is a feasible plan for those who can carry this out. Yeah it would suck if you misstime your payment and whatnot, but why would you miss it if you plan it out right. Just have a spread sheet to track everything and have a reminder set up. Some people say it can be a lot of effort for a medical student, but hey if I can save thousands of dollars doing just that, I would rather do that instead of working hours and hours to make up for that compounded amount of money I would have paid for interest.

I just think people have to be thankful for the knowledge she offers. It's up to you if you want to take it or not. She's not forcing anyone to follow her way.

 

[pathologyDO]

Just take whatever you want to take. I personally think this is a feasible plan for those who can carry this out. Yeah it would suck if you misstime your payment and whatnot, but why would you miss it if you plan it out right. Just have a spread sheet to track everything and have a reminder set up. Some people say it can be a lot of effort for a medical student, but hey if I can save thousands of dollars doing just that, I would rather do that instead of working hours and hours to make up for that compounded amount of money I would have paid for interest.

I just think people have to be thankful for the knowledge she offers. It's up to you if you want to take it or not. She's not forcing anyone to follow her way.

I agree somewhat.

We should all be wary of allowing unethical advice to be offered mass scale on this site. If this is indeed credit fraud (which I believe it is) then this shouldn't be something we allow her to spread rumor about on sdn (so that she can increase her potential fan base enough to sell a book on how this can be done). I also believe that although this could end up saving some people money, think about if someone tries this method and misses a payment or messes up - something that would not be hard to do... Do you believe that it is possible that 25% of people that try her method mess up? 10% end up missing a payment or transfer and have a higher interest rate than federal levels? This is a method that could end up making life really miserable for a potential percentage of her followers. Yes, we are all adults and should be held responsible for our own actions, but allowing her to spread this method without proper scrutiny of the facts would not be a good thing imo.

 

[Debt Free Doctor]

Just take whatever you want to take. I personally think this is a feasible plan for those who can carry this out. Yeah it would suck if you misstime your payment and whatnot, but why would you miss it if you plan it out right. Just have a spread sheet to track everything and have a reminder set up. Some people say it can be a lot of effort for a medical student, but hey if I can save thousands of dollars doing just that, I would rather do that instead of working hours and hours to make up for that compounded amount of money I would have paid for interest.

I just think people have to be thankful for the knowledge she offers. It's up to you if you want to take it or not. She's not forcing anyone to follow her way.

exactly
i have one master spread sheet

honestly it is easier than 1 patient i carry on medicine service as an intern
all you who have massive brain because you are pre-med, med student, or resident, or fellow,
3% of your brain power will be sufficient to keep up with the finances stuff

 

[evooo8]

More like a professional student that makes responsible decisions. What you suggest we do to raise our credit limit is considered credit fraud. Please, if you can give me one link that proves you can include your entire parents income on a credit card application and count it as income, I would reconsider. Everything I have looked up has clearly stated you cannot list their entire income - my definition, as you say, is actually NOT MY definition at all. It is the definition set forth by the credit card companies that you create a contract with when you open these credit cards and pile debt onto them.

I have seen on a few credit card applications where they say you can put TOTAL household income. That includes my income of $0 and my parents income of $X. I applied for one a few weeks ago that said my own income, loans included. I only put the loan amount I would get after paying tuition.

 

[ftp902]

I agree somewhat.

We should all be wary of allowing unethical advice to be offered mass scale on this site. If this is indeed credit fraud (which I believe it is) then this shouldn't be something we allow her to spread rumor about on sdn (so that she can increase her potential fan base enough to sell a book on how this can be done). I also believe that although this could end up saving some people money, think about if someone tries this method and misses a payment or messes up - something that would not be hard to do... Do you believe that it is possible that 25% of people that try her method mess up? 10% end up missing a payment or transfer and have a higher interest rate than federal levels? This is a method that could end up making life really miserable for a potential percentage of her followers. Yes, we are all adults and should be held responsible for our own actions, but allowing her to spread this method without proper scrutiny of the facts would not be a good thing imo.

I agree with where you are going with this. But there are few things that does not make sense to me.

First point is that you think she's posting this to increase her fan base to sell a book. Yet she was already met with so much criticism here that I doubt there will be many fans out there, which is fine. As I said earlier, It really comes down to whether you take it or not. If you are willing to carry this out, then you are supposed to be deliberate enough to make this work. If you miss your payment, that is totally your responsibility, as you said, and you knew this before you go into it. If you think you can't do it, which is also totally fine, don't take it. It's just simple as that. Why do you think she's posting this to harm the public when everyone out there is grown ups to make their own decision. I'm talking about freedom of speech here and it's up to you to take it or not.

Second point you brought up is that you think this is credit fraud. If I were DFD and I legitimately think this is fraud, I would not make my own website (She also has her own photo with WCI on the website, Can YOU put your photo up and make the same claim?) or post this information to a public for NO INSTANT REWARD. You think doing this eventually benefits her because people will like her and buy her books? NO. You know who will benefit the most from this information? It's credit card companies who will take advantage of those who missed their payments on time. Why do you think credit card companies are not super strict about raising the credit limit? you probably know the answer by now. Yes, it's to make more money off of interest from those who cannot be responsible for their own spending.

If anything, I would take a hell of advantage of those credit card companies because I give them enough. What's wrong with it? Finance is all about finding opportunities.

 

[pathologyDO]

I have seen on a few credit card applications where they say you can put TOTAL household income. That includes my income of $0 and my parents income of $X. I applied for one a few weeks ago that said my own income, loans included. I only put the loan amount I would get after paying tuition.

Sorry but if you are an adult that doesn't live with your parents, they mean include the monthly parental contribution to your income, not their total income. I dare you to find a legit article about including your entire parental income to count as your own income.

I agree with where you are going with this. But there are few things that does not make sense to me.

First point is that you think she's posting this to increase her fan base to sell a book. Yet she was already met with so much criticism here that I doubt there will be many fans out there, which is fine. As I said earlier, It really comes down to whether you take it or not. If you are willing to carry this out, then you are supposed to be deliberate enough to make this work. If you miss your payment, that is totally your responsibility, as you said, and you knew this before you go into it. If you think you can't do it, which is also totally fine, don't take it. It's just simple as that. Why do you think she's posting this to harm the public when everyone out there is grown ups to make their own decision. I'm talking about freedom of speech here and it's up to you to take it or not.

Second point you brought up is that you think this is credit fraud. If I were DFD and I legitimately think this is fraud, I would not make my own website (She also has her own photo with WCI on the website, Can YOU put your photo up and make the same claim?) or post this information to a public for NO INSTANT REWARD. You think doing this eventually benefits her because people will like her and buy her books? NO. You know who will benefit the most from this information? It's credit card companies who will take advantage of those who missed their payments on time. Why do you think credit card companies are not super strict about raising the credit limit? you probably know the answer by now. Yes, it's to make more money off of interest from those who cannot be responsible for their own spending.

If anything, I would take a hell of advantage of those credit card companies because I give them enough. What's wrong with it? Finance is all about finding opportunities.

You must have missed the part where she talked about her blog which has a link to her other materials that she tries to sell such as MCAT tutoring.

 

[ftp902]

Sorry but if you are an adult that doesn't live with your parents, they mean include the monthly parental contribution to your income, not their total income. I dare you to find a legit article about including your entire parental income to count as your own income.



You must have missed the part where she talked about her blog which has a link to her other materials that she tries to sell such as MCAT tutoring.

Sure I will change that to MANY KINDS OF BOOKS AND SERVICES. Let's see how much it alters my point.

 

[pathologyDO]

Sure I will change that to MANY KINDS OF BOOKS AND SERVICES. Let's see how much it alters my point.

Listen, medical student "accepted," chill out. You're gunna hurt your brain.

 

[ftp902]

Listen, medical student "accepted," chill out. You're gunna hurt your brain.

Haha thanks. That just tells me you got nothing better to say.

 

[pathologyDO]

I already made my point, we will have to agree to disagree. Board studying and stuff.

 

[Debt Free Doctor]

I agree with where you are going with this. But there are few things that does not make sense to me.

First point is that you think she's posting this to increase her fan base to sell a book. Yet she was already met with so much criticism here that I doubt there will be many fans out there, which is fine. As I said earlier, It really comes down to whether you take it or not. If you are willing to carry this out, then you are supposed to be deliberate enough to make this work. If you miss your payment, that is totally your responsibility, as you said, and you knew this before you go into it. If you think you can't do it, which is also totally fine, don't take it. It's just simple as that. Why do you think she's posting this to harm the public when everyone out there is grown ups to make their own decision. I'm talking about freedom of speech here and it's up to you to take it or not.

Second point you brought up is that you think this is credit fraud. If I were DFD and I legitimately think this is fraud, I would not make my own website (She also has her own photo with WCI on the website, Can YOU put your photo up and make the same claim?) or post this information to a public for NO INSTANT REWARD. You think doing this eventually benefits her because people will like her and buy her books? NO. You know who will benefit the most from this information? It's credit card companies who will take advantage of those who missed their payments on time. Why do you think credit card companies are not super strict about raising the credit limit? you probably know the answer by now. Yes, it's to make more money off of interest from those who cannot be responsible for their own spending.

If anything, I would take a hell of advantage of those credit card companies because I give them enough. What's wrong with it? Finance is all about finding opportunities.

wow, thank you!
when i first got all the dissing at the beginning of this thread, i literally emailed WCI and cried about my experience...
WCI told me that i needed to have thicker skin to survive on SDN.

honestly, i have not sold any of my books, because i think my blog readers are as frugal as i am. i read the advice on WCI's website for free and email him for lots of free and awesome advice
but never bought his book (i think his book is great, but i didn't buy it because i am cheap and minimalist)

so i totally understand if people like to take free advice from my site and NOT buy my book, lol

i appreciate the positive support, it truly comes down to
i believe we are the hardest working bunch (doctors) and have the most delayed gratification in life, i simply was trying to share what worked for me
and yes, i'm net negative with my website that i started in March this year... paid to run the site, but didn't make anything to date

(not the smartest financial move to start this blog, but simply something I am passionate about...)

 

[Debt Free Doctor]

I agree with where you are going with this. But there are few things that does not make sense to me.

First point is that you think she's posting this to increase her fan base to sell a book. Yet she was already met with so much criticism here that I doubt there will be many fans out there, which is fine. As I said earlier, It really comes down to whether you take it or not. If you are willing to carry this out, then you are supposed to be deliberate enough to make this work. If you miss your payment, that is totally your responsibility, as you said, and you knew this before you go into it. If you think you can't do it, which is also totally fine, don't take it. It's just simple as that. Why do you think she's posting this to harm the public when everyone out there is grown ups to make their own decision. I'm talking about freedom of speech here and it's up to you to take it or not.

Second point you brought up is that you think this is credit fraud. If I were DFD and I legitimately think this is fraud, I would not make my own website (She also has her own photo with WCI on the website, Can YOU put your photo up and make the same claim?) or post this information to a public for NO INSTANT REWARD. You think doing this eventually benefits her because people will like her and buy her books? NO. You know who will benefit the most from this information? It's credit card companies who will take advantage of those who missed their payments on time. Why do you think credit card companies are not super strict about raising the credit limit? you probably know the answer by now. Yes, it's to make more money off of interest from those who cannot be responsible for their own spending.

If anything, I would take a hell of advantage of those credit card companies because I give them enough. What's wrong with it? Finance is all about finding opportunities.

in fact, credit card companies are my arch enemies

because during college i worked 7 jobs to help pay my parents' credit card debt that was revolving at 29.99% because ONE late payment by my dad...

 

[Debt Free Doctor]

Sorry but if you are an adult that doesn't live with your parents, they mean include the monthly parental contribution to your income, not their total income. I dare you to find a legit article about including your entire parental income to count as your own income.



You must have missed the part where she talked about her blog which has a link to her other materials that she tries to sell such as MCAT tutoring.

I did make some income from my MCAT USMLE books, but that was PRIOR to starting my blog... because i do have somewhat of a FAN BASE in the nerd club, lol...
not in the financial world. I'm a nerd if you don't know already.

 

[Debt Free Doctor]

Listen, medical student "accepted," chill out. You're gunna hurt your brain.

In fact, I'm very excited for ftp902.
Prevention is the best medicine.
When my co residents, interns, fellows, and even young attendings discuss personal finances with me, a common theme that pops up is "I wish I knew ________________ earlier."
So starting medical school, at the beginning of taking on expensive student loans (plus there is no more subsidized loans now, so it is 6.8% or whatever % as soon as the loan is disbursed), it's the best time to minimize AND delay such interest.

people can be creative in avoiding interest
credit card is just one way, home refi is another, personal loan from family/friends where you off them 3% guaranteed return (half of student loan interest, so win-win) is another.

SHOUT OUT to everyone on SDN, if you have a cool way to save on student loan interest (which can amount to 60k just during 4 years of med school, i ran a scenario based on my school's cost of attendance and taking out full COA annually) or to generate income to offset COA, please share here!

thank you all for being good sports and helping one another out

 

[Debt Free Doctor]

talking about debt, I also want to share

Three reasons I find student loan forgiveness dangerous,

1. gov keep talking about capping forgiveness, last year at 57k

2. gov has not even figured out the final forgiveness application for the first "forgiven" class in 2017

3. 40% of doctors plan for forgiveness, and majority of them have 300k now -500k+ (by the end of 120 IBR payments) in debt, I don't think our government can afford that.

It basically is a unsustainable program, that can be stopped, capped, at any time, and leaves the debtors, indenture servants for the rest of their lives.

 

[evooo8]

Sorry but if you are an adult that doesn't live with your parents, they mean include the monthly parental contribution to your income, not their total income. I dare you to find a legit article about including your entire parental income to count as your own income.

I am currently living with my parents, so if they ask to include total household income it means the total income of the household. That means anyone who lives in the house I reside in. That means me, my parents and my sisters. I am not going to waste my time to prove to you something I saw on a credit card application a year ago.

 

[pathologyDO]

I am currently living with my parents, so if they ask to include total household income it means the total income of the household. That means anyone who lives in the house I reside in. That means me, my parents and my sisters. I am not going to waste my time to prove to you something I saw on a credit card application a year ago.

Credit Card Accountability Responsibility and Disclosure Act (CARD) and reporting income - look it up. In 2009 it changed the law so that household income was no longer something allowed and that you could include your parents income on.

"In 2009, the CARD Act changed the way credit card applicants reported income. Prior to this law, card issuers asked for an applicant’s “total household income” when completing a credit card application. At that time, young adults with no income of their own yet could include parents’ income on credit card applications if they still lived at home. Spouses and partners who didn’t work outside the home were able to report the income of the employed household member in order to qualify for credit. Another difference was a sole reliance on the consumer’s credit history to extend credit.

The CARD Act changed all that. One issue the new regulations specifically targeted was student credit cards. Banks had gotten into the habit of handing out credit cards to young adults with no personal income of their own, instead allowing them to report credit card household income. Many of these students would start using their cards indiscriminately and quickly build a balance they had no means of paying, either leaving their parents saddled with the bill or defaulting on the card and damaging their credit right out the gate.

The CARD Act established a requirement for young adults to have their own personal income to qualify for a credit card, demonstrating their ability to pay the bills for their credit card without the assistance of their parents’ income. This was referred to as the Ability to Pay (ATP) rules. Card issuers started using complicated mathematical formulas to determine whether applicants would be able to make their minimum credit card payments."



As for the other routes of making income like work study, tutoring, etc those can work for you. Those methods sound great and I think more people should be aware of those options.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Users are reminded that while we allow posters to offer financial advice on the forums (that does not constitute advertising), users should be sure and check that such advice is not in violation of state or federal statutes before following it.

 

[Debt Free Doctor]

Credit Card Accountability Responsibility and Disclosure Act (CARD) and reporting income - look it up. In 2009 it changed the law so that household income was no longer something allowed and that you could include your parents income on.

"In 2009, the CARD Act changed the way credit card applicants reported income. Prior to this law, card issuers asked for an applicant’s “total household income” when completing a credit card application. At that time, young adults with no income of their own yet could include parents’ income on credit card applications if they still lived at home. Spouses and partners who didn’t work outside the home were able to report the income of the employed household member in order to qualify for credit. Another difference was a sole reliance on the consumer’s credit history to extend credit.

The CARD Act changed all that. One issue the new regulations specifically targeted was student credit cards. Banks had gotten into the habit of handing out credit cards to young adults with no personal income of their own, instead allowing them to report credit card household income. Many of these students would start using their cards indiscriminately and quickly build a balance they had no means of paying, either leaving their parents saddled with the bill or defaulting on the card and damaging their credit right out the gate.

The CARD Act established a requirement for young adults to have their own personal income to qualify for a credit card, demonstrating their ability to pay the bills for their credit card without the assistance of their parents’ income. This was referred to as the Ability to Pay (ATP) rules. Card issuers started using complicated mathematical formulas to determine whether applicants would be able to make their minimum credit card payments."



As for the other routes of making income like work study, tutoring, etc those can work for you. Those methods sound great and I think more people should be aware of those options.

great information. thank you for sharing this on SDN. I personally never counted my parents' income because 1. they have little 2. i don't financial assistance from them. in fact, i pay THEIR credit cards...
but for those who are fortunate to have family support, one can be careful with how much of the parents' income to report to be accurate and in compliance of law.

as winged scapula stated, everyone should read the terms and understands for themselves what the credit card companies/law/regulations require you to put down.
i am neither a tax accountant, a lawyer, or a business person.
i'm a doctor first and foremost

 

[Debt Free Doctor]

white coat investor just posted my guest post so happy that he thinks my methods can at least benefit SOME people.

 

[Toastayy]

Link for interested parties http://whitecoatinvestor.com/hitting-a-net-worth-of-0-as-an-intern/

 

[link2swim06]

The problems with this are:

(1) Working is great. But delaying attending years to save money is dumb. You make more as an attending and cost yourself big money in the long run.
(2) Working too much in med school can make you less competitive and possible prevent you from going into high paying specialties.
(3) Credit cards have a transfer fee. So you ARE INCURRING FEEs every balance transfer. It is just at a lower rate than student loans. Maybe 3% vs. 5% average?
(4) Eventually your credit may catch up with you. If you don't get a new card (because of your maxed out credit) you can't transfer and will have to start making BIG payments. Student loans you can defer.
(5) Many schools don't even let you pay with a CC or charge you a fee. There is another 3% fee.
(6) Refinancing at start of intern year is safer and will end up with only a little bit larger total bill with a lot less confusion.

 

[Debt Free Doctor]

The problems with this are:

(1) Working is great. But delaying attending years to save money is dumb. You make more as an attending and cost yourself big money in the long run.
(2) Working too much in med school can make you less competitive and possible prevent you from going into high paying specialties.
(3) Credit cards have a transfer fee. So you ARE INCURRING FEEs every balance transfer. It is just at a lower rate than student loans. Maybe 3% vs. 5% average?
(4) Eventually your credit may catch up with you. If you don't get a new card (because of your maxed out credit) you can't transfer and will have to start making BIG payments. Student loans you can defer.
(5) Many schools don't even let you pay with a CC or charge you a fee. There is another 3% fee.
(6) Refinancing at start of intern year is safer and will end up with only a little bit larger total bill with a lot less confusion.

great points

1. i enjoyed working, studying at the library, tutoring MCAT and boards. taking time off to work before med school was not for working's sake, was to be able to raise my new born kid. i wanted to be with her more during her 1st 3 years.
2. i posted 250 on usmle step i
3. the highest transfer fee i paid for was 2% and most of the time i got paid 1-10% cash back to use credit card on tuition
4. yes only for those who are not realistic and undisciplined do debt catch up. i am uncomfortable with debt in general, especially those that grow, so i actually never ended up being "caught up." i never paid more than 2.99% on any credit cards, always moved or paid off before the 0% ends. highest interest debt i'd ever paid since 2010 indeed was student loan @ 6.8%.
5. my school allowed using credit card for tuition as purchases without any fees, in other words, i got awarded 1-10% cash for charging my colossal tuition on credit cards and riding the interest for free for 1.5-2 yrs. for schools that charge a fee, there are ways around it that still is better than 6.8%
6. i tried to refi my student loan when i still had some (20k or so) even with 750-780 credit score, the 5 year fixed rate i would qualify for would be 4.5%... would save me a few k over 5 years. so i ended up just funneling my cash flow to pay OFF my student loan while living on credit for free... till of course when the 0% ends and i would have accumulated enough to pay off or transfer to another card for 1-2% fee.

 

[link2swim06]

great points

1. i enjoyed working, studying at the library, tutoring MCAT and boards. taking time off to work before med school was not for working's sake, was to be able to raise my new born kid. i wanted to be with her more during her 1st 3 years.
2. i posted 250 on usmle step i
3. the highest transfer fee i paid for was 2% and most of the time i got paid 1-10% cash back to use credit card on tuition
4. yes only for those who are not realistic and undisciplined do debt catch up. i am uncomfortable with debt in general, especially those that grow, so i actually never ended up being "caught up." i never paid more than 2.99% on any credit cards, always moved or paid off before the 0% ends. highest interest debt i'd ever paid since 2010 indeed was student loan @ 6.8%.
5. my school allowed using credit card for tuition as purchases without any fees, in other words, i got awarded 1-10% cash for charging my colossal tuition on credit cards and riding the interest for free for 1.5-2 yrs. for schools that charge a fee, there are ways around it that still is better than 6.8%
6. i tried to refi my student loan when i still had some (20k or so) even with 750-780 credit score, the 5 year fixed rate i would qualify for would be 4.5%... would save me a few k over 5 years. so i ended up just funneling my cash flow to pay OFF my student loan while living on credit for free... till of course when the 0% ends and i would have accumulated enough to pay off or transfer to another card for 1-2% fee.

True but I am still a little confused how you got such high credit limits for balance transfer. I have a >800 FICO score and did a balance transfer to get the 0% rate for residency moving expenses and was only approved for a credit limit of 9K. How many credit cards do you have at a time?

And most of my loans aren't actually at 6.8%. The rate came down when Obama passed the most recent reform. Mine average rate ended up being around 5.5-6.0%. With DRB I was able to refinance to 4.25%. But there is no way in the world I could open $190,000 worth of credit cards.

Finally, good job on killing step 1. But if I had two jobs during med school I probably would have failed out.

The biggest issue for most people is you still need to come up with the principle. For a lot of people that is going to be around 200K. You can minimize the interest all you want but that is not the core of the issue. Of course, you are missing the boat if you are just taking the grad plus rate and repaying over a 20-year term. But my point is without serious cash flow during med school it's hard for credit cards to hold that much debt without serious risk of defaulting during residency.

 

[samac]

. . .
I read this whole post. All it did was make me laugh and slightly uncomfortable.
On one note, I hate Op's use of big text throughout this thread. I felt like it was all one big ad because of this.
On another note, I could see someone trying to do this and getting screwed.
On another note, how in the world do you get a work study for $25,000.
Let's math.
$15 a hour, 15 hours a week?
We'll say 20 weeks a semester. 2 semesters that's $9,000.
40 weeks * 15 hr/wk * $15/hr
All year that's $11700.
$20 a week? 12,000 a school year. $15600 a year.
I smell so much BS in this thread.

 

[xffan624]

True but I am still a little confused how you got such high credit limits for balance transfer. I have a >800 FICO score and did a balance transfer to get the 0% rate for residency moving expenses and was only approved for a credit limit of 9K. How many credit cards do you have at a time?

And most of my loans aren't actually at 6.8%. The rate came down when Obama passed the most recent reform. Mine average rate ended up being around 5.5-6.0%. With DRB I was able to refinance to 4.25%. But there is no way in the world I could open $190,000 worth of credit cards.

Finally, good job on killing step 1. But if I had two jobs during med school I probably would have failed out.

The biggest issue for most people is you still need to come up with the principle. For a lot of people that is going to be around 200K. You can minimize the interest all you want but that is not the core of the issue. Of course, you are missing the boat if you are just taking the grad plus rate and repaying over a 20-year term. But my point is without serious cash flow during med school it's hard for credit cards to hold that much debt without serious risk of defaulting during residency.

Read the complete thread. OP misrepresented her income for credit cards by including her parental income. There's a lot of smoke in promoting this method. Little substance.

 

[Maxlife]

Big thumps up girl! you are on to something. I did something similar through college. I was an international student at the time....tuition was a lot of $$$$-had to work two jobs. Wish I kept on through med school.... Most of my friends who were international students at the university did a similar thing as well. Can't wait for your post on the WCI. It's never too late....I'm definitely working on getting back on exploiting this. It's seems the credit markets are returning to the pre-2008 collapse craziness. If anyone on here has a credit score >740 with little revolving debt and has the DISCIPLINE Debt Free Doctor is on to something worth checking out! Great work Debt Free Doctor......Very inspiring ( The few pages of this thread I read made my day) Thanks for posting

Sorry, I can only supply excerpt of the article I wrote, so I don't get dinged by google.

But the general idea is that

1. stretch and flex ur credit by maxing it
2. paying it off
3. credit card company think you are super user, so they either automatically increase your limit or happily do so when you give them a call
4. it's baby steps, and may seem slow initially to increase your total credit limit, it does pick up momentum when credit card companies start to COMPETE for your "debt."
5. once you build up a critical momentum, it just snows ball like crazy from there. I got my most recent increase of 50k within the last 1 month or so.

If I can do it, you can do it too. It takes patience and diligence but I know you've got that because you are doctor!

 

[Maxlife]

Auto Payment is very easy to use....set two just in case( one with a reminder-your bank account that you have to manually pay and one automatic -credit card account directly for the minimum payment). The reminder will prompt you to check the payment and give you the opportunity to check the account at least once a month.

I really envy DFD. I did what she did and pretty much survived college as an international student(Financial aid or loans where not an option) but gave it up for medical school. Wished I had continued now when reading her story. It's very feasible especially now when the credit card companies are returning to their pre-2008 reckless competition of just handing out credit cards and increasing limits like candies. If used wisely with discipline, I think one could save a ton of money. Definitely more useful and easier for Non-trads with longer credit histories with minimal revolving debt with a current score of >740 or for someone with already high credit limits. Kudos again DFD...can't wait for your post on WCI.

Just take whatever you want to take. I personally think this is a feasible plan for those who can carry this out. Yeah it would suck if you misstime your payment and whatnot, but why would you miss it if you plan it out right. Just have a spread sheet to track everything and have a reminder set up. Some people say it can be a lot of effort for a medical student, but hey if I can save thousands of dollars doing just that, I would rather do that instead of working hours and hours to make up for that compounded amount of money I would have paid for interest.

I just think people have to be thankful for the knowledge she offers. It's up to you if you want to take it or not. She's not forcing anyone to follow her way.

 

[Debt Free Doctor]

Big thumps up girl! you are on to something. I did something similar through college. I was an international student at the the time....tuition was a lot of $$$$-had to work two jobs. Wish I kept on through med school.... Most of my friends who were international students at the university did it as well. Can't wait for your post on the WCI. It never too late....I'm definitely working on getting back on exploiting this. It's seems the credit markets are returning to the pre-2008 collapse craziness. If anyone on here has a credit score >740 with little revolving debt and has the DISCIPLINE Debt Free Doctor is on to some worth checking out! Great work Debt Free Doctor......Very inspiring

Thank you for your positive feedback. certainly balances out the negativity I receive here
WCI already posted my guest article, on 6/10/15.
Your comments and questions are welcomed anytime.

 

[Debt Free Doctor]

Read the complete thread. OP misrepresented her income for credit cards by including her parental income. There's a lot of smoke in promoting this method. Little substance.

never counted my parents' income
they had 43k combined in their peak earning years (our family immigrated to the US when my dad was 50 yo)
last 2 years of my med school, my dad was laid off and my mom sold food made at home to get by

i did count my work study income and student loans as income
i was not aware of counting student loans as a source of income but was told by the credit card application rep on the phone that since i can request student loan to pay credit card debt, it can be counted as the income

since i was entitled up to 80-90k of student loan annually thanks to the high cost of attendance at my school. i counted that...
THAT was my major source of income in the eyes of the credit card companies.

 

[Debt Free Doctor]

True but I am still a little confused how you got such high credit limits for balance transfer. I have a >800 FICO score and did a balance transfer to get the 0% rate for residency moving expenses and was only approved for a credit limit of 9K. How many credit cards do you have at a time?

And most of my loans aren't actually at 6.8%. The rate came down when Obama passed the most recent reform. Mine average rate ended up being around 5.5-6.0%. With DRB I was able to refinance to 4.25%. But there is no way in the world I could open $190,000 worth of credit cards.

Finally, good job on killing step 1. But if I had two jobs during med school I probably would have failed out.

The biggest issue for most people is you still need to come up with the principle. For a lot of people that is going to be around 200K. You can minimize the interest all you want but that is not the core of the issue. Of course, you are missing the boat if you are just taking the grad plus rate and repaying over a 20-year term. But my point is without serious cash flow during med school it's hard for credit cards to hold that much debt without serious risk of defaulting during residency.

i didn't have large credit limits when i first started medical school
it was during medical school as my credit usage become so large, and i demonstrated that i could pay them off by either transferring to a different card OR requesting the student loan (that was literally at my finger tip) to pay it off.
credit card companies caught on and believe i'm a big spender + big payer... and frequently volunteered to increase my limit in a letter or just did it (i found out when i log into the website and i have larger limit)
and of course, i learned, so i started requesting higher limits as well.

my first largest single credit card limit was just 10k, then it grew to 15k, now i have 2 cards with 30k...

honestly, i have not kept track of how many cards i have...
i do know that they are in good standing as i watch them with my $7.99/mo experian credit watch

at any given time, i like to stick to a couple ACTIVELY using cards. just to keep things simple for myself.
cards that are 0% interest rate, with great rewards that i like to use for everything chargeable.
but i hardly ever CLOSE any cards, especially those that are OLD accounts with zero balances (because as you know, the age of account and the additional credit limit serve to boost my score)

other things i did include:
i did take out some student loans for the principle.
i worked multiple jobs, nearly 40hrs/week during med school at 15/hr work study jobs (some of it i won't call working because i was studying or socializing at the library)
i also was very very cheap... i get free haircut from my kid
credit card saved me 60k in interests and gave me extra cash to live on (the latest excel sheet scenario i ran was comparing what i did with what i would have ended up with in student loans if i took out cost of attendance at the beginning of every year)
i had several personal loans totaling 50k by the end of med school, which included help with partial down payment for my 1st home
and 20k saved up before med school

hope this make things clearer.
btw, congrats for refi with DRB, saving interest is the way to go!

 

[Postictal Raiden]

. . .
I read this whole post. All it did was make me laugh and slightly uncomfortable.
On one note, I hate Op's use of big text throughout this thread. I felt like it was all one big ad because of this.
On another note, I could see someone trying to do this and getting screwed.
On another note, how in the world do you get a work study for $25,000.
Let's math.
$15 a hour, 15 hours a week?
We'll say 20 weeks a semester. 2 semesters that's $9,000.
40 weeks * 15 hr/wk * $15/hr
All year that's $11700.
$20 a week? 12,000 a school year. $15600 a year.
I smell so much BS in this thread.

Yup, the math is not adding up. The tuition alone is 55k/year. That doesn't include other educational costs such as paying for taking the boards, prep material, medical equipments, residency application fee, interview traveling and lodging expenses, and most importantly, it doesn't include the living expenses.

With tuition alone being 220k over the four years, I don't care how financially genius and savvy you are, the money has to come from somewhere.

 

[Debt Free Doctor]

my post on WCI generated a lot a questions, which overlap with some questions. here's my response.



"
I will attempt to answers as many questions as possible.


First of all, many answers to your questions can be found on my blog (leaving my blog out as this is SDN policy) and please leave specific questions in the comment section of the blog.


Gabe, your story is inspiring.


it's pretty close to mine. i didn't have any tricks up my sleeve other than

1. working hard

2. spending little

3. minimizing interest


Full cost of attendance at my school was about 360k for 4 years and the interest accumulated would lead to about 424k at graduation (assuming one takes out full cost of attendance at the beginning of every school year)


i spent no where near the full cost of attendance in the first place, ie. I did not have as large a principle debt... i worked 2+ jobs throughout med school, frequently 40 hrs/week.

i had family help with some free childcare, even lived with my parents for 1 year and they charged me only 500/mo for rent and i bought some food... list goes on. I’m grateful for all the help i have gotten.


while many people here are interested in how EXACTLY i came out (educational) debt free at this point, i would like to sum up a few general principles that helped me minimize debt in the first place in addition to minimizing interest.


1. i was cheap. I found ways to cut everything down other than the tution. for example, when people spent 1-2k on away rotation, i spent $200/rotation by cooking/doing chores in exchange for free rent/rides etc. I slept on many couches on my interview trail. i shared study materials with people, didn't buy any text books i worked at the library honestly didn’t have much time to read...



2. i had some personal loans listed above.



3. i started med school w 20k of savings to cover some of the most expensive rent i paid in med school initially, but soon figured that i needed to down size and rent smaller and cheaper (rented a room for me and my kid for 2-3 years)


4. Uncle sam helped me. I wasn’t aware i qualified for anything until 3rd year of medical school when my classmates with kids told me about the assistance they were getting. I got cheap health insurance, food stamp, and some cash but i didn’t get any of my tution for undergrad or med school paid and no subsidized housing/help w first home. If i had to guess, the cash value probably total 20k+ over the 4 years, would have been more if i got help as OMS1 and OMS2. I have indeed paid more taxes than 20k in my life time and will pay lots more.



5. time is money. I took 4 years off between undergrad and med school to raise my kid whil working odd jobs. I won’t be a fully boarded attending until I’m 36 with 5 more years of residency/fellowship ahead of me. Having a net worth of 0 at 30 is pretty much the same as having a net worth of negative 600k at 26 or 27. So for those who went straight for med school and will be YOUNG attendings, kuddos to you and congratulations, time is on your side.


Again, this post is not about my personal life and circumstances.


It is but my small attempt to share with others some of the many things that helped me along the way.


Credit cards, though saved me 66k interest and gave me some cash, were not the only reason i have little debt. There are other factors, many of them discussed in detail on (leaving my blog out as this is SDN policy).


I found this particular tip on using credit cards to minimize interest most effortless and interesting, hence I wrote about it.


On another note, this tip was NOT as effortless when I first started it in 2009 (before med school.) It took me some trials and errors to be efficient while in med school. Now, i have 1 excel sheet to keep tract of all my finances, and i check in once/2 weeks, takes about 1 hour. I try my best to lay out steps on how to use new credit card promotions and balance transfers. Again more details on the blog.


True I could have studied on average 15 more minutes daily in medical school and got a 260 on step I instead of 250, but what I learned by being proactive with my finances was helpful to me and hopefully may help someone else.


As an intern, my focus has been to take good care of my patients, learn about medicine, and help teach medical students. (So yes, I do tutor pro bono somtimes) I enjoy spending down time wtih my family, writing my blog, and tutoring boards/MCAT.


While 1 particular colleague thinks that I am a lesser doctor because I take care of my finances, family, and write a blog, I believe that as professionals we are free to do as we wish in our free time. I did not regret spending time to learn about finances during medical school; I am happy to be sharing and learning from my colleagues in medicine as well as other areas.


5 years ago., I was asked by my college friend who’s a successful business woman, “Why in the world do you want to go take on so much debt and be in school forever, when you are doing perfectly fine financially right now?”


I answered, “I want to learn more and humans are what i choose to learn about.” To this day, as much as I complain about how much money my medical education cost and how little time I had for my kid, I am grateful to have gotten this far... thanks to the help of many. "

 

[LilEngineThatCould]

I don't think I could personally keep up with this method and would be scared of forgetting something or messing up, although I do well with my finances currently. I paid down about $12k from my undergrad loans by working the last 2 years (between graduation and now) and making double payments on my loans. Most of my payments went towards the loan with the highest interest rate. I paid $500/mo to my parents for rent plus other bills during this time. I have also saved up $7k to use in either a case of emergency and/or for residency interviews/away rotations that way I don't have to take out extra loans for that which I've heard some ppl do. I'll point out the job I got with my undergrad degree pays about $48k salary. I worked during undergrad as well and while I was able to do well in my classes working about 30 hr/wk, idk if it is something I could do in med school. I'd be scared of risking my grades and test scores. I also wonder if it would be worth it because most jobs don't pay as well as DFD got paid.

I believe this credit method could be used for living expenses; you wouldn't need as high a credit limit and it would save you on the student loan balances. Remember the COA set by schools tend to be generous and you don't have to use the amount they set. I think many ppl make the mistake of using as much of the loan money as possible when it's not absolutely necessary. Also, there are other types of loans out there besides fed loans depending on the state where you go to school. Sometimes they have lower interest rates and may not accrue interest while you're in school. Where I'll be going, I'm hoping I'll qualify for dept of health loans which don't have a LOF, 5% interest after you graduate, no interest while you're in school.

Anyway, my point is there are other ways to lower your debt and while this credit idea that DFD used may not be for everyone (in fact, you should make sure you're good at being organized, pay attention to detail, and not forgetful), it is something that could be used by ppl even if not to the extent she did it. I do believe her OP sounded too good to be true and wasn't at all what I expected, but some of the advice on the thread is worthwhile reading, even when ppl disagree. It provides good points about finances and what works for different ppl.

tl;dr read some of the other things DFD did which are helpful in reducing debt; the credit method could be used for living expenses since using it for tuition may not be plausible for most students with little credit history; there are other types of loans out there depending on where you live; take all advice with a grain of salt, but don't be closed-minded either.

 

[drmak89]

I don't think I could personally keep up with this method and would be scared of forgetting something or messing up, although I do well with my finances currently. I paid down about $12k from my undergrad loans by working the last 2 years (between graduation and now) and making double payments on my loans. Most of my payments went towards the loan with the highest interest rate. I paid $500/mo to my parents for rent plus other bills during this time. I have also saved up $7k to use in either a case of emergency and/or for residency interviews/away rotations that way I don't have to take out extra loans for that which I've heard some ppl do. I'll point out the job I got with my undergrad degree pays about $48k salary. I worked during undergrad as well and while I was able to do well in my classes working about 30 hr/wk, idk if it is something I could do in med school. I'd be scared of risking my grades and test scores. I also wonder if it would be worth it because most jobs don't pay as well as DFD got paid.

I believe this credit method could be used for living expenses; you wouldn't need as high a credit limit and it would save you on the student loan balances. Remember the COA set by schools tend to be generous and you don't have to use the amount they set. I think many ppl make the mistake of using as much of the loan money as possible when it's not absolutely necessary. Also, there are other types of loans out there besides fed loans depending on the state where you go to school. Sometimes they have lower interest rates and may not accrue interest while you're in school. Where I'll be going, I'm hoping I'll qualify for dept of health loans which don't have a LOF, 5% interest after you graduate, no interest while you're in school.

Anyway, my point is there are other ways to lower your debt and while this credit idea that DFD used may not be for everyone (in fact, you should make sure you're good at being organized, pay attention to detail, and not forgetful), it is something that could be used by ppl even if not to the extent she did it. I do believe her OP sounded too good to be true and wasn't at all what I expected, but some of the advice on the thread is worthwhile reading, even when ppl disagree. It provides good points about finances and what works for different ppl.

tl;dr read some of the other things DFD did which are helpful in reducing debt; the credit method could be used for living expenses since using it for tuition may not be plausible for most students with little credit history; there are other types of loans out there depending on where you live; take all advice with a grain of salt, but don't be closed-minded either.

I wonder how one could proactively figure out how much cushion above what may be absolutely needed (for them) vs. what the school estimates to be the COA.

Also, DFD did you use your income from your jobs to make the minimum payments on your credit card debt? (Sorry if this was already asked) I can see that working if you have a steady source of income but if not then I'm not sure how that becomes feasible.

 

[LilEngineThatCould]

I wonder how one could proactively figure out how much cushion above what may be absolutely needed (for them) vs. what the school estimates to be the COA.

Also, DFD did you use your income from your jobs to make the minimum payments on your credit card debt? (Sorry if this was already asked) I can see that working if you have a steady source of income but if not then I'm not sure how that becomes feasible.

Schools I've talked to say that they usually ask students how much they paid for different things to get an estimate of what's needed and then add a little more money just in case. Most schools are generous with their COA so students don't have to worry about this. I sat down and calculated how much I'd need through monthly cost and saw that the school would actually be giving me an extra $4000 compared to what I'd actually spend for groceries, rent, phone, car/transportation, books, plus a little money allotted for an emergency medical bill or something. Students also forget that if you end up needing more money the school will usually help you get more so it's not absolutely necessary to take all the money upfront. Of course, I don't know all the details of this, but I have my savings so I may not need to do that if I get in a bind anyway.

 

[Debt Free Doctor]

Schools I've talked to say that they usually ask students how much they paid for different things to get an estimate of what's needed and then add a little more money just in case. Most schools are generous with their COA so students don't have to worry about this. I sat down and calculated how much I'd need through monthly cost and saw that the school would actually be giving me an extra $4000 compared to what I'd actually spend for groceries, rent, phone, car/transportation, books, plus a little money allotted for an emergency medical bill or something. Students also forget that if you end up needing more money the school will usually help you get more so it's not absolutely necessary to take all the money upfront. Of course, I don't know all the details of this, but I have my savings so I may not need to do that if I get in a bind anyway.

exactly the idea is
borrow as little as you absolutely need

because fed/school are more than happy to lend to you at high origination fee/high interest rate

since it is SO easy to borrow student loan
make sure to do so only as last resort.

 

[Debt Free Doctor]

I wonder how one could proactively figure out how much cushion above what may be absolutely needed (for them) vs. what the school estimates to be the COA.

Also, DFD did you use your income from your jobs to make the minimum payments on your credit card debt? (Sorry if this was already asked) I can see that working if you have a steady source of income but if not then I'm not sure how that becomes feasible.

my monthly minimum payment on most of my credit card debts in med school were at pretty much 1% of the debt.
so if i had 80k on credit cards, i need to make 800/mo payment
yes i worked quite a bit under work study, and use that cash flow to make my monthly credit card payments

the idea is no matter where you money come from: work, student loans, savings...
put it where the money is really needed

ie i won't pay my credit card balance @ 0% 1 dollar more than the minimum requirement
as long as i still have debts with higher interest rate

cash is limited in med school and residency, i just prioritize where it goes to minimize paying other people interest and maximize getting return/gain for me.

hope this helps

ps.
one most important thing to do when using credit cards to minimize interest/debt is to
make sure you have a plan to pay off or transfer the credit card debt to a low rate before it jumps to 20% interest rate/APR after the promotion ends

 

[Debt Free Doctor]

I recently learned about mr. money mostache on WCI
and was very excited to find that my "extreme" frugality wasn't all that extreme at all.
he is making lots of good points of how we can cut back on our expenses and still enjoy a happy/fulfilled life.
i believe that if we take even just a fraction of his suggestions of resourcefulness, frugality, and grit to practice, we can all cut down our cost of attendance by quite a bit and make some side income in med school to offset debt.

anyone else has additional ideas on how to prevent/pay down med student loan debt other than
1. frugality/resourcefulness
2. side jobs
3. saving interests on loans by delaying/minimizing taking out student loans?

everyone has their own way of managing their debt (some do so by ignoring it), but for those who have managed their debt successfully, please do share.

thanks!

 

[samac]

Oh look the thread didn't move for a while so our friend here wasn't getting the attention she wants so she posted again.

 

[baxt1412]

In my general opinion, if you're taking advice from a thread like this on a topic that inherently has a lot of risk, you are the exact person who SHOULDN'T be doing this.

kind of like the classic "if you have to ask, you can't afford it" (In reference to the ZJ line in Beerfest)

 

[Debt Free Doctor]

Oh look the thread didn't move for a while so our friend here wasn't getting the attention she wants so she posted again.

Thanks for the comment, i thought it was something meaningful when I saw the alert...

I get enough attention from having a guest post on WCI and my own blog.
It is not attention I desire, but discussion for all of us to learn from each other.

I shared about Mr. Money Mustache because his saving rate was 75% and have great philosophies and practices in personal finances; my saving rate is only 47%.
He's an inspiration and I thought many of us could use his advice.

Like WCI, there is much bitterness, jealousy, unkindness and even racist judgement towards me in this thread.

I find it unfortunate that this is how some people feel.
But I'm also happy to have met some pretty cool people by starting this thread, getting encouraged by their successes.

I wish you the best, and most of all inner peace for you
and some level for myself so that you don't get excited by my post and feel the need to bash me.

 

[slopes23]

Thanks for the comment, i thought it was something meaningful when I saw the alert...

I get enough attention from having a guest post on WCI and my own blog.
It is not attention I desire, but discussion for all of us to learn from each other.

I shared about Mr. Money Mustache because his saving rate was 75% and have great philosophies and practices in personal finances; my saving rate is only 47%.
He's an inspiration and I thought many of us could use his advice.

Like WCI, there is much bitterness, jealousy, unkindness and even racist judgement towards me in this thread.

I find it unfortunate that this is how some people feel.
But I'm also happy to have met some pretty cool people by starting this thread, getting encouraged by their successes.

I wish you the best, and most of all inner peace for you
and some level for myself so that you don't get excited by my post and feel the need to bash me.

How you are allowed by SDN to pedal your blog and pie in the sky suggestions is beyond me. In almost every post you subliminally promote your blog, and it's disgusting while also bothersome.

 

[LilEngineThatCould]

BTW, I recently found out that AMEX has stopped backdating. Sharing because I thought this was an interesting "benefit" that is no longer available as of March of this year.

 

[slopes23]

BTW, I recently found out that AMEX has stopped backdating. Sharing because I thought this was an interesting "benefit" that is no longer available as of March of this year.

Please let the thread drift back into SDN archives. Surely if you thought it was interesting you could make your own thread about it. Don't further this person's forum to spread their propaganda.

 

[Debt Free Doctor]

BTW, I recently found out that AMEX has stopped backdating. Sharing because I thought this was an interesting "benefit" that is no longer available as of March of this year.

thank you for posting this. i noticed it when i opened 2 Amex cards, was looking forward to a large bump in my average credit account age.
that back dating was a fantastic benefit, but still i was very happy to get the cash bonuses with amex blue cash and amex business open road.