How to not come off as a disingenuous box-checker?

[sweetie2pie]

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I need some serious help for my upcoming AMCAS application! I have been a lurker for the past two years, and read on certain threads that ADCOMs frown upon "box-checkers." I'm wondering how they can tell the difference between someone who genuinely enjoyed their activities, versus someone who did them solely for the purpose of admissions? Here is a list of my activities:

1. Co-founder of the Pre-Medical Club at my school.
2. 300 hours of clinical volunteering in the ER.
3. 30 hours of volunteering in a soup kitchen.
4. 80 hours of shadowing six different specialties.

Do these look okay? Do I come off as genuine, or do I look like a box-checker? I don't understand why ADCOMs have such a condescending attitude toward pre-meds, considering that the advisors tell everyone to load up on volunteer hours, shadowing, and clubs! 🙁

Thanks for the help! 😀

 

[thlaxer]

I need some serious help for my upcoming AMCAS application! I have been a lurker for the past two years, and read on certain threads that ADCOMs frown upon "box-checkers." I'm wondering how they can tell the difference between someone who genuinely enjoyed their activities, versus someone who did them solely for the purpose of admissions? Here is a list of my activities:

1. Co-founder of the Pre-Medical Club at my school.
2. 300 hours of clinical volunteering in the ER.
3. 30 hours of volunteering in a soup kitchen.
4. 80 hours of shadowing six different specialties.

Do these look okay? Do I come off as genuine, or do I look like a box-checker? I don't understand why ADCOMs have such a condescending attitude toward pre-meds, considering that the advisors tell everyone to load up on volunteer hours, shadowing, and clubs! 🙁

Thanks for the help! 😀

Possible questions to ask yourself: Why did you choose to shadow six different specialties? What did you learn from these experiences? What motivated you to volunteer at the soup kitchen or in the ED? Similarly, why did you start the premed club at your school?

The way you write about these experiences will, imo, make you come off as being either genuine or a boxchecker. The people who really put effort into an activity (i.e. was genuine) should be able to write more reflectively on his/her own experiences. I also think that the timing of the activities play a role. e.g. A person who started volunteering shortly after taking their first biology class would probably seem more genuine than a person who started volunteering two months before submitting their AMCAS application. The first person could say how their volunteering experience solidified their interest in the field more convincingly.

 

[jesse120]

Your descriptions of those activities will be the difference between a "box checker-er" and yourself. For instance, adcoms know perfectly well what a typical ER volunteer does, so don't waste the valuable space you have to describe making up beds, wheeling patients around, etc. Instead, write about what the activity meant to you. Maybe there was a patient that meant something to you, maybe you had to deal with an ethical dilema, maybe you liked training new volunteers, maybe you learned something (but never just say "I learned a greal deal," you need to be very specific about what you learned). Make those generic premed activities stand out in some way, otherwise they'll skip right over them.

Edit: this would be worth your time, promise http://mediasite.hs.washington.edu/Mediasite/Play/69f7f3827b9042e096be692294c63de91d

 

[gettheleadout]

I need some serious help for my upcoming AMCAS application! I have been a lurker for the past two years, and read on certain threads that ADCOMs frown upon "box-checkers." I'm wondering how they can tell the difference between someone who genuinely enjoyed their activities, versus someone who did them solely for the purpose of admissions? Here is a list of my activities:

1. Co-founder of the Pre-Medical Club at my school.
2. 300 hours of clinical volunteering in the ER.
3. 30 hours of volunteering in a soup kitchen.
4. 80 hours of shadowing six different specialties.

Do these look okay? Do I come off as genuine, or do I look like a box-checker? I don't understand why ADCOMs have such a condescending attitude toward pre-meds, considering that the advisors tell everyone to load up on volunteer hours, shadowing, and clubs! 🙁

Thanks for the help! 😀

If those are your only activities then you appear generic, and possibly as if you have no interests outside of medicine. Three of your activities are premed-ish, and the soup kitchen volunteering is a typical sort non-clinical volunteering. A longer involvement period, however, may imply a more sincere commitment than "I'm just doing this to prepare my application."

Also, why do you think adcoms have condescending attitudes toward premeds? Oh, and don't listen to your advisor if you think there is something wrong with what they're telling you to do.

 

[sweetie2pie]

This sounds great! It looks like I have a lot of brainstorming to do! Thanks! 🙂

 

[wilberforce72]

The ADCOMs are going to ask you what you learned from each experience, and if you aren't ready to tell them how your life has been affected by your time, then you can basically count it as a box check. "Oh yeah I was at a hospital for a while and it was cool." Great job. WHAT did it do for you, and how are you different now than you were before you started there. Yes, you may be doing it to meet their "requirement" of hours, but they want to see why you stayed. That was my experience from the interviews I had (n=4).

 

[sliceofbread136]

Start a club that encourages people not to be box checkers. Then you probably will look like less of a box checker.

 

[music2doc]

I need some serious help for my upcoming AMCAS application! I have been a lurker for the past two years, and read on certain threads that ADCOMs frown upon "box-checkers." I'm wondering how they can tell the difference between someone who genuinely enjoyed their activities, versus someone who did them solely for the purpose of admissions? Here is a list of my activities:

1. Co-founder of the Pre-Medical Club at my school.
2. 300 hours of clinical volunteering in the ER.
3. 30 hours of volunteering in a soup kitchen.
4. 80 hours of shadowing six different specialties.

Do these look okay? Do I come off as genuine, or do I look like a box-checker? I don't understand why ADCOMs have such a condescending attitude toward pre-meds, considering that the advisors tell everyone to load up on volunteer hours, shadowing, and clubs! 🙁

Thanks for the help! 😀

Then don't be one!

...Oh wait, you're already about to apply... well, in that case, it's all in how you describe what you've been doing for the last 4 years. If you've really just been doing everything to get into medical school without any real self-reflection and growth, you may not be in a good position in terms of this. (However, this is not to say you cannot fix that. It is certainly something you can start doing now.)

I do have to agree with the above comment about your list being quite generic. What makes you you? Why would I want to meet you? Right now, your app looks like 42,000+ other apps and 25,000 of those have other things too that make yours look shabby. And so I ask -- why would I want to meet you? What is it about sweetie2pie that makes her such an interesting person to meet? What have you accomplished? What do you do when you're not studying/working/volunteering/researching/etc.? What are you really good at?

Also, why would you be a great doctor? How are you becoming a great person now? What have your experiences in college taught you? What will you contribute to the med schools to which you apply? How will your pre-medical experience make you a better physician? If you had to do it all again, what would you do differently? What are you currently developing in order to be more successful in medical school?

As you develop answers to those questions that tie into your ECs, you will hopefully move from just following a bunch of advisors' suggestions onto being a more genuine applicant.

As for your question about why AdComs are so "condescending" toward pre-meds, I don't really think they are. The fact of the matter is they want people who are sincere and a lot of people attempt to game the system. As a result, they have the difficult job of trying to pick the genuine things out from all the crap to figure out who we, the applicants, really are. They want to know whether or not you will remain a leader and an advocate for your peers while in medical school as well as a leader and advocate for your patients as a physician (as you have, perhaps, demonstrated as the founder of your premed club). The problem is that for that one student who actually will follow through and has a real passion for advocacy and leadership, there are probably 20 who started (or were president of an already existing) pre-med club and will say they have those qualities, but really have no intention to follow through nor even possess the requisite qualities for success in that work.

I would say the flip side of your question is really why advisors tell pre-meds to do things like volunteer, research, etc. when it seems like they're simply telling you to check a box. I think this occurs because advisors want to give good guidance and these things are necessary for medical school admission. The problem comes when you do nothing but the requirements. In other words, your activities basically revolve around getting into med school and/or there isn't really much actual engagement with the work you're doing. Nobody wants to simply hear that you have researched hexokinase inhibitors to find a possible cure for one form of cancer. If you're going to research that, you had better engage it. I would anticipate hearing passion in it when you talk about the possible implications of your research as well as what you have learned from it. Likewise, when you're in the hospital, I would expect to see you engage the patients and staff. Where I work, our best volunteers are always looking to see what we need and trying to anticipate where we might need help. They find wheelchairs and bring them back to triage or go out into the waiting room and talk to patients that seem distressed or that they see coming up to triage a lot to ask questions. I anticipate those same volunteers -- if applying to medical school -- will say things in their description like, "I volunteered in the XYZ ED for 12 months. During this time, I helped calm anxious patients in the waiting room and was frequently complimented by the staff for anticipating their needs and bringing them things before they needed them. This experience taught me...."

 

[AF2Doc]

I need some serious help for my upcoming AMCAS application! I have been a lurker for the past two years, and read on certain threads that ADCOMs frown upon "box-checkers." I'm wondering how they can tell the difference between someone who genuinely enjoyed their activities, versus someone who did them solely for the purpose of admissions? Here is a list of my activities:

1. Co-founder of the Pre-Medical Club at my school.
2. 300 hours of clinical volunteering in the ER.
3. 30 hours of volunteering in a soup kitchen.
4. 80 hours of shadowing six different specialties.

Do these look okay? Do I come off as genuine, or do I look like a box-checker? I don't understand why ADCOMs have such a condescending attitude toward pre-meds, considering that the advisors tell everyone to load up on volunteer hours, shadowing, and clubs! 🙁

Thanks for the help! 😀

What has been the impact of your participation in these activities?

Sent from my DROID RAZR using SDN Mobile

 

[equinsu ocha]

Everyone does these activities for admission purposes. The key IMO is how you fill out your activities section of AMCAS. List what you did, why you did it, and what you learned.

 

[AllDaWEI]

Then don't be one!

...Oh wait, you're already about to apply... well, in that case, it's all in how you describe what you've been doing for the last 4 years. If you've really just been doing everything to get into medical school without any real self-reflection and growth, you may not be in a good position in terms of this. (However, this is not to say you cannot fix that. It is certainly something you can start doing now.)

I do have to agree with the above comment about your list being quite generic. What makes you you? Why would I want to meet you? Right now, your app looks like 42,000+ other apps and 25,000 of those have other things too that make yours look shabby. And so I ask -- why would I want to meet you? What is it about sweetie2pie that makes her such an interesting person to meet? What have you accomplished? What do you do when you're not studying/working/volunteering/researching/etc.? What are you really good at?

Also, why would you be a great doctor? How are you becoming a great person now? What have your experiences in college taught you? What will you contribute to the med schools to which you apply? How will your pre-medical experience make you a better physician? If you had to do it all again, what would you do differently? What are you currently developing in order to be more successful in medical school?

As you develop answers to those questions that tie into your ECs, you will hopefully move from just following a bunch of advisors' suggestions onto being a more genuine applicant.

As for your question about why AdComs are so "condescending" toward pre-meds, I don't really think they are. The fact of the matter is they want people who are sincere and a lot of people attempt to game the system. As a result, they have the difficult job of trying to pick the genuine things out from all the crap to figure out who we, the applicants, really are. They want to know whether or not you will remain a leader and an advocate for your peers while in medical school as well as a leader and advocate for your patients as a physician (as you have, perhaps, demonstrated as the founder of your premed club). The problem is that for that one student who actually will follow through and has a real passion for advocacy and leadership, there are probably 20 who started (or were president of an already existing) pre-med club and will say they have those qualities, but really have no intention to follow through nor even possess the requisite qualities for success in that work.

I would say the flip side of your question is really why advisors tell pre-meds to do things like volunteer, research, etc. when it seems like they're simply telling you to check a box. I think this occurs because advisors want to give good guidance and these things are necessary for medical school admission. The problem comes when you do nothing but the requirements. In other words, your activities basically revolve around getting into med school and/or there isn't really much actual engagement with the work you're doing. Nobody wants to simply hear that you have researched hexokinase inhibitors to find a possible cure for one form of cancer. If you're going to research that, you had better engage it. I would anticipate hearing passion in it when you talk about the possible implications of your research as well as what you have learned from it. Likewise, when you're in the hospital, I would expect to see you engage the patients and staff. Where I work, our best volunteers are always looking to see what we need and trying to anticipate where we might need help. They find wheelchairs and bring them back to triage or go out into the waiting room and talk to patients that seem distressed or that they see coming up to triage a lot to ask questions. I anticipate those same volunteers -- if applying to medical school -- will say things in their description like, "I volunteered in the XYZ ED for 12 months. During this time, I helped calm anxious patients in the waiting room and was frequently complimented by the staff for anticipating their needs and bringing them things before they needed them. This experience taught me...."

I agree with the OP here that they have a condescending attitude toward pre-meds. I found the following earlier in the 2010-2011 University of Michigan thread:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=11249111

UMich twitter update:

"File review meeting concluded-disappointed in the files read---too many "box checkers". Need a Blimpy burger & relax by watching the Tigers."

I hate being under review

This is what the ADCOM official said on Twitter. What strikes me is, if these are all known REQUIREMENTS to get into medical school, then why the attitude against pre-meds that are only doing what they need to do? If this only has to do with competition (one pre-med has more ECs that will look "better" than OPs), then fine. But to call them out on this, and blame them and call them "box-checkers"? Now that is kinda wrong. Just my thoughts...
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en...8XyAQ&ved=0CCMQvwUoAQ&q=condescending&spell=1

 

[SunsFun]

I know nothing from my own experience but perusing through different bits of information online I would say the most important things you can do is get good grades and do well on MCAT. Those things have the closest correlation with acceptance rate. You're not lacking EC's as long as you can frame your experiences from the standpoint of what you have learned and how it contributed to your desire to go into medicine. Box checking thing is a part of the game and ADCOM knows about it. How many premeds would volunteer for hundreds of hours at random places along with volunteering at a hospital if it had zero barring on the application success? Not everybody and probably not even most are truly altruistic people when they are in their early 20's to sacrifice their time which could have been used making money to work for free. We frame it to ourselves as learning and growing experience but volunteering is free labor by definition.

 

[AllDaWEI]

I know nothing from my own experience but perusing through different bits of information online I would say the most important things you can do is get good grades and do well on MCAT. Those things have the closest correlation with acceptance rate. You're not lacking EC's as long as you can frame your experiences from the standpoint of what you have learned and how it contributed to your desire to go into medicine. Box checking thing is a part of the game and ADCOM knows about it. How many premeds would volunteer for hundreds of hours at random places along with volunteering at a hospital if it had zero barring on the application success? Not everybody and probably not even most are truly altruistic people when they are in their early 20's to sacrifice their time which could have been used making money to work for free. We frame it to ourselves as learning and growing experience but volunteering is free labor by definition.

👍

Very well said. Last time I checked, non-pre-meds were not lining up in droves to volunteer at hospitals. I have seen people volunteer here and there (at an event, once at a soup kitchen, etc), but not with these massive commitments of pre-meds. This is why I found that post by Michigan to be frustrating. How do they judge who is genuine versus "box-checker"?

 

[music2doc]

I agree with the OP here that they have a condescending attitude toward pre-meds. I found the following earlier in the 2010-2011 University of Michigan thread:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=11249111



This is what the ADCOM official said on Twitter. What strikes me is, if these are all known REQUIREMENTS to get into medical school, then why the attitude against pre-meds that are only doing what they need to do? If this only has to do with competition (one pre-med has more ECs that will look "better" than OPs), then fine. But to call them out on this, and blame them and call them "box-checkers"? Now that is kinda wrong. Just my thoughts...
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en...8XyAQ&ved=0CCMQvwUoAQ&q=condescending&spell=1

Well yes that is condescending and I've never been particularly impressed with Michigan. That said I don't think their attitude is representative of all or even most schools.

I know nothing from my own experience but perusing through different bits of information online I would say the most important things you can do is get good grades and do well on MCAT. Those things have the closest correlation with acceptance rate. You're not lacking EC's as long as you can frame your experiences from the standpoint of what you have learned and how it contributed to your desire to go into medicine. Box checking thing is a part of the game and ADCOM knows about it. How many premeds would volunteer for hundreds of hours at random places along with volunteering at a hospital if it had zero barring on the application success? Not everybody and probably not even most are truly altruistic people when they are in their early 20's to sacrifice their time which could have been used making money to work for free. We frame it to ourselves as learning and growing experience but volunteering is free labor by definition.

I tend to think of volunteering as an internship. I rarely think of it as something I am doing to be altruistic although I do enjoy doing it and could see continuing it as a physician.

 

[AllDaWEI]

Well yes that is condescending and I've never been particularly impressed with Michigan. That said I don't think their attitude is representative of all or even most schools.



I tend to think of volunteering as an internship. I rarely think of it as something I am doing to be altruistic although I do enjoy doing it and could see continuing it as a physician.

But to what extend would you continue? I have volunteered for random things here and there that had nothing to do with medical school admissions in the past (and even after I was accepted). But these were usually one-time events and were not huge commitments. I know people that have done these too, but never took part in something with such a large commitment. In fact, many family and friends I know never volunteered before (not pre-med), and were shocked by how much I was doing at hospital. SunsFun mentioned the heavy hundreds/thousands of hours commitments that we commonly see here on SDN. That is what sets the pre-meds apart from other people, and is it for good reason? Not really, considering that a majority are probably doing it for the application, though no one wants to admit it.

 

[AF2Doc]

Well yes that is condescending and I've never been particularly impressed with Michigan. That said I don't think their attitude is representative of all or even most schools.



I tend to think of volunteering as an internship. I rarely think of it as something I am doing to be altruistic although I do enjoy doing it and could see continuing it as a physician.

Agree UMich is very condescending... check out their Twitter feed where they feature stupidest SDN posts of the week. I hope the attitudes of the adcoms aren't representative of the entire school.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using SDN Mobile

 

[gettheleadout]

I agree with the OP here that they have a condescending attitude toward pre-meds. I found the following earlier in the 2010-2011 University of Michigan thread:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=11249111



This is what the ADCOM official said on Twitter. What strikes me is, if these are all known REQUIREMENTS to get into medical school, then why the attitude against pre-meds that are only doing what they need to do? If this only has to do with competition (one pre-med has more ECs that will look "better" than OPs), then fine. But to call them out on this, and blame them and call them "box-checkers"? Now that is kinda wrong. Just my thoughts...

What specifically do you think they mean by "box-checkers?" Would you call someone who engaged in the "required" premed activities for short periods of time and then stopped without any long-term involvement a "box-checker?" I certainly would. What impression does that give?

I take the term (when used pejoratively) to mean someone who appears to have participated in the "typical" activities specifically to have it listed on the application, with no regard for potential contribution to the program/people, capacity for personal growth, etc... Yes, one can embellish an activity description and fabricate these things, but that's a lot harder to do when your involvement is very staccato. I can imagine an additional (though possibly overlapping) scenario where someone who only participates in the "premed" activities, regardless of involvement, being considered a "box-checker."

 

[music2doc]

What specifically do you think they mean by "box-checkers?" Would you call someone who engaged in the "required" premed activities for short periods of time and then stopped without any long-term involvement a "box-checker?" I certainly would. What impression does that give?

I take the term (when used pejoratively) to mean someone who appears to have participated in the "typical" activities specifically to have it listed on the application, with no regard for potential contribution to the program/people, capacity for personal growth, etc... Yes, one can embellish an activity description and fabricate these things, but that's a lot harder to do when your involvement is very staccato. I can imagine an additional (though possibly overlapping) scenario where someone who only participates in the "premed" activities, regardless of involvement, being considered a "box-checker."

I would tend to agree with this definition. I might add that, honestly, starting threads like this one wreaks of "box-checker" mentality to me. (Sorry, OP.) What makes me feel that, I think, is the type of question being asked. It is essentially asking, "What is the shortest way between points A and B that requires the least effort possible."

 

[TheMightySmiter]

Agree UMich is very condescending... check out their Twitter feed where they feature stupidest SDN posts of the week. I hope the attitudes of the adcoms aren't representative of the entire school.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using SDN Mobile

If med school admissions offices are going to have Twitter feeds, they should be for informational purposes only--not to crap on their applicants. IMHO.

 

[MT Headed]

Is it time to start a 'Stupidest UMich Tweets' thread?

 

[varsityblue]

Nah, you sound fine. Try to frame your experiences uniquely.

 

[notbobtrustme]

I take the term (when used pejoratively) to mean someone who appears to have participated in the "typical" activities specifically to have it listed on the application, with no regard for potential contribution to the program/people, capacity for personal growth, etc... Yes, one can embellish an activity description and fabricate these things, but that's a lot harder to do when your involvement is very staccato. I can imagine an additional (though possibly overlapping) scenario where someone who only participates in the "premed" activities, regardless of involvement, being considered a "box-checker."

This is a good definition, but it also ****s up people who decide to enter medical school late in their college career. If you've decided to go to med school in your junior year, you still got to hit all the pre-reqs (written and unwritten) and that comes off as a box checker.

 

[AllDaWEI]

I would tend to agree with this definition. I might add that, honestly, starting threads like this one wreaks of "box-checker" mentality to me. (Sorry, OP.) What makes me feel that, I think, is the type of question being asked. It is essentially asking, "What is the shortest way between points A and B that requires the least effort possible."

In defense of OP, I think any thread asking any of the following demonstrates the "box-checker" mentality:

1. When should I start volunteering?
2. Is this enough volunteering?
3. Does this volunteer activity look good?
4. Which volunteer activity looks better?
5. How good does a mission trip look?
6. Should I do (insert activity) as a job or as a volunteer?

These threads are common on SDN and definitely show "box-checker" mentality. If the pre-med is NOT a "box-checker", then they would not ask such questions. They would be more than happy to do activities and would do them without ever needing to ask about them.

Now this makes me wonder how schools like Michigan can look and see whether the applicant is genuine or just great BSer. As I stated in another thread, the best way to gauge if someone is genuine is if they do these activities on their own. Applicants that have done these ECs well before becoming pre-med is good indicator. Otherwise, doesn't it seem a little fishy if applicant all of a sudden joined plethora of activities right WHEN becoming pre-med?

 

[AllDaWEI]

This is a good definition, but it also ****s up people who decide to enter medical school late in their college career. If you've decided to go to med school in your junior year, you still got to hit all the pre-reqs (written and unwritten) and that comes off as a box checker.

I'm not an ADCOM, but my guess is that the ECs can be spun to look "good" in certain ways. If you were NOT a science major and started activities immediately when start first pre-req course, you can probably be okay if you say how it reinforce your desire to pursue medicine. I have met some non-trads, and they obviously get a pass from not having done those ECs in UNDERGRAD. But they still need to do the activities during post-bacc. Even if a parent quits their job and is raising a family with kids, that just doesn't show enough commitment to medicine. 🙄

But I'm guessing you probably okay if you started activities quickly enough. If there is a.large gap, then I guess that is a red flag. Good luck!

 

[MrCheetah]

I need some serious help for my upcoming AMCAS application! I have been a lurker for the past two years, and read on certain threads that ADCOMs frown upon "box-checkers." I'm wondering how they can tell the difference between someone who genuinely enjoyed their activities, versus someone who did them solely for the purpose of admissions? Here is a list of my activities:

1. Co-founder of the Pre-Medical Club at my school.
2. 300 hours of clinical volunteering in the ER.
3. 30 hours of volunteering in a soup kitchen.
4. 80 hours of shadowing six different specialties.

Do these look okay? Do I come off as genuine, or do I look like a box-checker? I don't understand why ADCOMs have such a condescending attitude toward pre-meds, considering that the advisors tell everyone to load up on volunteer hours, shadowing, and clubs! 🙁

Thanks for the help! 😀

Isn't there a box on the AMCAS which you use to write a brief description of the activities you list? Fill each one with a genuine, sincere, well thought out response.

Also, I'd say "over 300 hours..." rather than just "300 hours..." to make it look less like you just put in 300 hours and then said "okay i've done my 300 hours now I'll just quit.

 

[MT Headed]

In defense of OP, I think any thread asking any of the following demonstrates the "box-checker" mentality:

1. When should I start volunteering?
2. Is this enough volunteering?
3. Does this volunteer activity look good?
4. Which volunteer activity looks better?
5. How good does a mission trip look?
6. Should I do (insert activity) as a job or as a volunteer?

These threads are common on SDN and definitely show "box-checker" mentality. If the pre-med is NOT a "box-checker", then they would not ask such questions. They would be more than happy to do activities and would do them without ever needing to ask about them.

Now this makes me wonder how schools like Michigan can look and see whether the applicant is genuine or just great BSer. As I stated in another thread, the best way to gauge if someone is genuine is if they do these activities on their own. Applicants that have done these ECs well before becoming pre-med is good indicator. Otherwise, doesn't it seem a little fishy if applicant all of a sudden joined plethora of activities right WHEN becoming pre-med?

A lot of these could be applied to the MCAT as well. When should I start studying? Is this enough studying? How does this MCAT class perform? etc.

Is doing well on the MCAT also a box-checker activity and disparaged by schools like UMich?

 

[sweetie2pie]

I would tend to agree with this definition. I might add that, honestly, starting threads like this one wreaks of "box-checker" mentality to me. (Sorry, OP.) What makes me feel that, I think, is the type of question being asked. It is essentially asking, "What is the shortest way between points A and B that requires the least effort possible."

Hey music2doc, no offense taken. So what if I am a "box-checker?" I worked really hard over the past few years, and needed to do everything I could to make myself a strong applicant. I don't think there's anything wrong with checking boxes to get there, but the ADCOMs definitely don't see it this way! 👎

 

[Bro Dude]

Nah, you sound fine. Try to frame your experiences uniquely.

^This. So instead of being an Underwater Basket Weaver, you shall be a Subaquatic Creel Engineer.

(srs)

 

[music2doc]

Hey music2doc, no offense taken. So what if I am a "box-checker?" I worked really hard over the past few years, and needed to do everything I could to make myself a strong applicant. I don't think there's anything wrong with checking boxes to get there, but the ADCOMs definitely don't see it this way! 👎

I'm glad you weren't offended. While I do agree that you must do what you must do to go to medical school, I also understand where the schools are coming from. The reality is that schools want people who seem to be "natural fits" not ones that seem manufactured. If you had to force yourself into their mold, then that makes them wonder whether or not you'll be a good fit (and for good reason). Unfortunately, with so many people trying to game the perfect fit for medical school, you can no longer simply rely upon your natural interests to get in because, frankly, almost none of us would naturally do all of those things without at least some external push or guidance; hence, the box-checking phenomenon has become quite popular and, in fact, it is almost more a matter of degree. I know I mentioned either here or elsewhere recently that I basically "box-checked" shadowing myself because, to me, it seemed like a waste of time. (I grew up with a doc and a nurse for parents. I know what physicians do. I didn't need to follow one of my dad's colleagues around for 24 hours to know what his rounds would be like or that he gets free prime rib in the doctor's lounge at lunch every day or that sometimes nursing managers can be a pain in the a**, yet I still did it so that I could check that box.) Overall, however, I checked very few boxes in that sense and also made sure to get something out of each experience. That last part, I believe, is the most crucial.

 

[sender]

I'm glad you weren't offended. While I do agree that you must do what you must do to go to medical school, I also understand where the schools are coming from. The reality is that schools want people who seem to be "natural fits" not ones that seem manufactured. If you had to force yourself into their mold, then that makes them wonder whether or not you'll be a good fit (and for good reason). Unfortunately, with so many people trying to game the perfect fit for medical school, you can no longer simply rely upon your natural interests to get in because, frankly, almost none of us would naturally do all of those things without at least some external push or guidance; hence, the box-checking phenomenon has become quite popular and, in fact, it is almost more a matter of degree. I know I mentioned either here or elsewhere recently that I basically "box-checked" shadowing myself because, to me, it seemed like a waste of time. (I grew up with a doc and a nurse for parents. I know what physicians do. I didn't need to follow one of my dad's colleagues around for 24 hours to know what his rounds would be like or that he gets free prime rib in the doctor's lounge at lunch every day or that sometimes nursing managers can be a pain in the a**, yet I still did it so that I could check that box.) Overall, however, I checked very few boxes in that sense and also made sure to get something out of each experience. That last part, I believe, is the most crucial.

Wise words!

I think the distinction between being a "box-checker" or not comes down to motivation. If you do your activities in order to be able to check off boxes on your application, you are a box-checker by definition. It seems like what schools object to about that, which I completely understand, is that it feels a little flat, like someone just going through the motions. Schools who are looking for non box-checkers want people who engage with their passions, whether or not that's the correct pre-med thing to do, because it means they're likely to attack medical education in that way too, really getting involved and engaging with it creatively and insightfully instead of just going through the motions. Also, having varied experiences gives you a unique perspective to bring to the table.

The reality is that med schools do look for certain things on applications, but I think that by understanding the motivation for those you can avoid doing them in a box-checking way. E.g. with shadowing, the idea is just to make sure you know what you're getting into! Which makes perfect sense. It's not that you absolutely need shadowing per se, you just need to do something that convinces adcoms you know what you're getting into. I never did shadowing as a separate activity, but in volunteering as a health coach I work closely with residents and sit in on their patient interviews, so I made sure to emphasize that part in my apps. You can follow the spirit of the law without following the letter of it.

Again, what they want to see is people who are genuinely engaging with their passions, one of which is hopefully medicine, but not the only one.

I guess the other reality is that some people ARE just going to be box-checkers, and I don't think that's necessarily wrong. My sense is that not all schools are so sensitive to that. Just don't apply to Michigan! Personally I find their attitude toward box-checking refreshing and one of the reasons I'm thinking about going there. 👍

 

[circulus vitios]

As for your question about why AdComs are so "condescending" toward pre-meds, I don't really think they are. The fact of the matter is they want people who are sincere and a lot of people attempt to game the system. As a result, they have the difficult job of trying to pick the genuine things out from all the crap to figure out who we, the applicants, really are. They want to know whether or not you will remain a leader and an advocate for your peers while in medical school as well as a leader and advocate for your patients as a physician (as you have, perhaps, demonstrated as the founder of your premed club). The problem is that for that one student who actually will follow through and has a real passion for advocacy and leadership, there are probably 20 who started (or were president of an already existing) pre-med club and will say they have those qualities, but really have no intention to follow through nor even possess the requisite qualities for success in that work.

Why is enjoying pre-med volunteering a prerequisite for being a sincere applicant? I, and many others, dislike pre-med volunteering because it's stupid, unskilled, pointless work. Would I volunteer as a physician or as any other trained professional? Absolutely, because I would be using my skills to do something useful and interesting. Any ***** can run hospital errands. I/we only do it because it's an unwritten rule.

 

[Tots]

Why is enjoying pre-med volunteering a prerequisite for being a sincere applicant? I, and many others, dislike pre-med volunteering because it's stupid, unskilled, pointless work. Would I volunteer as a physician or as any other trained professional? Absolutely, because I would be using my skills to do something useful and interesting. Any ***** can run hospital errands. I/we only do it because it's an unwritten rule.

While this may often be the case, pre-med volunteering doesn't have to be like this. I think it is worth it to at least try to find something you enjoy doing.

 

[dmf2682]

I could be wrong here, maybe LizzyM or catalystik can verify, but I believe the way these ecs show up is as a time span and rate at which your hours are accrued. So while the adcoms could multiply for themselves they will see it first as how long you were engaged in activity and then, the level of commitment you applied during that time. In other words, a box checker would be pretty obvious at volunteering 40 hr per week over a 12 week summer break as opposed to a 3 hr/week for 3 years.

 

[sender]

While this may often be the case, pre-med volunteering doesn't have to be like this. I think it is worth it to at least try to find something you enjoy doing.

I second this.... doesn't have to the case at all. I found an awesome volunteering program where I feel like I'm performing a useful service (health coaching in a primary care clinic). Planning to volunteer as a physician too.... how about all the doctors without borders people etc? Not true that it's just pre-meds.

 

[sender]

I could be wrong here, maybe LizzyM or catalystik can verify, but I believe the way these ecs show up is as a time span and rate at which your hours are accrued. So while the adcoms could multiply for themselves they will see it first as how long you were engaged in activity and then, the level of commitment you applied during that time. In other words, a box checker would be pretty obvious at volunteering 40 hr per week over a 12 week summer break as opposed to a 3 hr/week for 3 years.

The first person just isn't as good at box-checking 😎

 

[gettheleadout]

While this may often be the case, pre-med volunteering doesn't have to be like this. I think it is worth it to at least try to find something you enjoy doing.

I agree with this as well. I got a really good experience out of my clinical volunteering.

I could be wrong here, maybe LizzyM or catalystik can verify, but I believe the way these ecs show up is as a time span and rate at which your hours are accrued. So while the adcoms could multiply for themselves they will see it first as how long you were engaged in activity and then, the level of commitment you applied during that time. In other words, a box checker would be pretty obvious at volunteering 40 hr per week over a 12 week summer break as opposed to a 3 hr/week for 3 years.

~500 hours is way past the point of usefulness (assuming the idea is to acclimate oneself to the clinical environment, since there are far more productive ways to serve the community than in a hospital ward.)

 

[music2doc]

I agree with this as well. I got a really good experience out of my clinical volunteering.

~500 hours is way past the point of usefulness (assuming the idea is to acclimate oneself to the clinical environment, since there are far more productive ways to serve the community than in a hospital ward.)

Depends what school you're applying to.... Oops, did we just get back into box-checking?!

But, seriously, there are schools that require 500 hours of clinical experience. (I'm looking at you, C-U.) Of course, such schools probably don't expect you to get this by volunteering....

 

[AllDaWEI]

Why is enjoying pre-med volunteering a prerequisite for being a sincere applicant? I, and many others, dislike pre-med volunteering because it's stupid, unskilled, pointless work. Would I volunteer as a physician or as any other trained professional? Absolutely, because I would be using my skills to do something useful and interesting. Any ***** can run hospital errands. I/we only do it because it's an unwritten rule.

Agreed! Based on music2doc's open-letter thread a while back, it seems lots of pre-meds have a very poor attitude when volunteering at hospital. It is so bad that they even refuse to do things that they are asked. Now take step back. Isn't volunteering supposed to be something FUN that you WANT to do? When you have so many pre-meds dreading it, doesn't there seem to be something wrong? Since when do human beings do things they don't enjoy for FREE? Cleaning beds, folding sheets, and restocking cabinets is not something FUN. Even some techs I met do not enjoy what they do and they paid!

Something about this makes you scratch your head.

 

[sender]

Agreed! Based on music2doc's open-letter thread a while back, it seems lots of pre-meds have a very poor attitude when volunteering at hospital. It is so bad that they even refuse to do things that they are asked. Now take step back. Isn't volunteering supposed to be something FUN that you WANT to do? When you have so many pre-meds dreading it, doesn't there seem to be something wrong? Since when do human beings do things they don't enjoy for FREE? Cleaning beds, folding sheets, and restocking cabinets is not something FUN. Even some techs I met do not enjoy what they do and they paid!

Something about this makes you scratch your head.

What makes me scratch my head about this is why people would do that kind of volunteering if they hate it so much!

I don't think volunteering necessarily has to be fun, though.... I would go for meaningful.

 

[notbobtrustme]

What makes me scratch my head about this is why people would do that kind of volunteering if they hate it so much!

I don't think volunteering necessarily has to be fun, though.... I would go for meaningful.

because something ridiculous like 94% of all matriculants had some sort of medical volunteering. if you want into the treehouse, you gotta play the game.

 

[sender]

because something ridiculous like 94% of all matriculants had some sort of medical volunteering. if you want into the treehouse, you gotta play the game.

Sure, but there are other kinds of volunteering to do. No need to be a victim, find something that works for you.

 

[music2doc]

What makes me scratch my head about this is why people would do that kind of volunteering if they hate it so much!

I don't think volunteering necessarily has to be fun, though.... I would go for meaningful.

I would have to agree. Honestly, while I wrote that "open letter," I can't imagine standing around an ER for hours on end doing nothing. That was, in fact, my impetus for writing it. I honestly felt sorry for those guys. It looked like the ultimate waste of time. I wouldn't do that if I were being paid!

because something ridiculous like 94% of all matriculants had some sort of medical volunteering. if you want into the treehouse, you gotta play the game.

Sure, but at least find something interesting or enjoyable to do it with! Find something you enjoy and will get something out of. I can't imagine standing around for hours on end could be remotely enjoyable.

 

[notbobtrustme]

Sure, but at least find something interesting or enjoyable to do it with! Find something you enjoy and will get something out of. I can't imagine standing around for hours on end could be remotely enjoyable.

I don't got time to dick around searching for the perfect volunteer experience when I want to apply in 2012 and matriculate in 2013. I just need my application to get me an interview invite, plain and simple. If I had to jerk off a hundred donkeys, I'd do that because I don't give a **** and I'll play this stupid ass game as long as I need to.

Plus, I don't mind my ER volunteering experience all that much. I get to catch up on a ton of reading during my shifts. I do like 40 minutes of total work in a 6 hour shift and spend the rest of the time reading. Of course, no one reading my AMCAS will ever know that.

 

[sender]

I don't got time to dick around searching for the perfect volunteer experience when I want to apply in 2012 and matriculate in 2013. I just need my application to get me an interview invite, plain and simple. If I had to jerk off a hundred donkeys, I'd do that because I don't give a **** and I'll play this stupid ass game as long as I need to.

Plus, I don't mind my ER volunteering experience all that much. I get to catch up on a ton of reading during my shifts. I do like 40 minutes of total work in a 6 hour shift and spend the rest of the time reading. Of course, no one reading my AMCAS will ever know that.

True, it takes some time to find the right volunteer experience.

Best of luck in the app process with that attitude. 👍

 

[popopopop]

I know nothing from my own experience but perusing through different bits of information online I would say the most important things you can do is get good grades and do well on MCAT. Those things have the closest correlation with acceptance rate. You're not lacking EC's as long as you can frame your experiences from the standpoint of what you have learned and how it contributed to your desire to go into medicine. Box checking thing is a part of the game and ADCOM knows about it. How many premeds would volunteer for hundreds of hours at random places along with volunteering at a hospital if it had zero barring on the application success? Not everybody and probably not even most are truly altruistic people when they are in their early 20's to sacrifice their time which could have been used making money to work for free. We frame it to ourselves as learning and growing experience but volunteering is free labor by definition.

Free labor by definition? It is a labor of love. Bottom line is don't volunteer for places you don't care about, because by then and only then, are you considered a box checker.

 

[music2doc]

I don't got time to dick around searching for the perfect volunteer experience when I want to apply in 2012 and matriculate in 2013. I just need my application to get me an interview invite, plain and simple. If I had to jerk off a hundred donkeys, I'd do that because I don't give a **** and I'll play this stupid ass game as long as I need to.

Plus, I don't mind my ER volunteering experience all that much. I get to catch up on a ton of reading during my shifts. I do like 40 minutes of total work in a 6 hour shift and spend the rest of the time reading. Of course, no one reading my AMCAS will ever know that.

I kinda hope it's the latter.... But if not, well, good luck.

 

[popopopop]

I don't got time to dick around searching for the perfect volunteer experience when I want to apply in 2012 and matriculate in 2013. I just need my application to get me an interview invite, plain and simple. If I had to jerk off a hundred donkeys, I'd do that because I don't give a **** and I'll play this stupid ass game as long as I need to.

Plus, I don't mind my ER volunteering experience all that much. I get to catch up on a ton of reading during my shifts. I do like 40 minutes of total work in a 6 hour shift and spend the rest of the time reading. Of course, no one reading my AMCAS will ever know that.

This will bite you in the ass when they asked what you did. I hope the ADCOM weed you out.

 

[notbobtrustme]

This will bite you in the ass when they asked what you did. I hope the ADCOM weed you out.

I'm not stupid, I know how to play this experience up. Over 20,000 students were admitted last year, do you think every single last one of them enjoyed their medical volunteering commitment?

 

[AllDaWEI]

Sure, but there are other kinds of volunteering to do. No need to be a victim, find something that works for you.

I think most of the pre-meds that "hate" their experiences probably would not have volunteered in the first place. If hypothetically volunteering had no impact on the application, how many pre-meds would still volunteer so much? What I find interesting is if pre-med here says they don't volunteer, SDN members will simply tell them to find a good experience. But what if they don't want to volunteer?

Is it wrong for someone to not want to do it? In college, I knew people who would help out woth special event here and there. But they never volunteered to such extent. Would you judge your non-pre-med friends for never having volunteered before?

And there you have the "box-checkers". They do what they need to do because when you have close to 90% of matriculants having volunteered, then what else can someone do other than checking those boxes?

 

[sender]

I think most of the pre-meds that "hate" their experiences probably would not have volunteered in the first place. If hypothetically volunteering had no impact on the application, how many pre-meds would still volunteer so much? What I find interesting is if pre-med here says they don't volunteer, SDN members will simply tell them to find a good experience. But what if they don't want to volunteer?

Is it wrong for someone to not want to do it? In college, I knew people who would help out woth special event here and there. But they never volunteered to such extent. Would you judge your non-pre-med friends for never having volunteered before?

And there you have the "box-checkers". They do what they need to do because when you have close to 90% of matriculants having volunteered, then what else can someone do other than checking those boxes?

Interesting. I wouldn't say it's *wrong* to not want to volunteer, but it doesn't really make sense to me. I'm a non-trad and have been involved with some kind of volunteering since high school, way before I had any idea I wanted to do medicine. It seems like.... one of the main reasons people go into medicine is to help people, so why would someone not want to start helping people right now? The reason it became a box to check in the first place is that medicine attracts altruistic people who tend to have done volunteering. The alternative to box-checking is to have a genuine motivation to do those things. Otherwise.... check those boxes, I guess, but realize where they come from and that they weren't just pulled out of some adcom's butt to punish premeds. 😀

Also, I don't think volunteering necessarily has to be clinical. You need clinical experiences to show adcoms (and yourself) that you know what you're getting into, but that could be from shadowing or something else.... there are SO MANY ways to volunteer, I'm convinced that everyone can find meaningful experiences if they look for them.