How to quit residency

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I just started intern year and I hate it already.....I've made a bad decision going into medicine b/c I've never really been passionate about it. I literally feel like killing myself everyday I'm at work.

How do I go about quitting the program? Do I talk to the Program Director first? What do I tell them? What protocols do I have to go through? Do I have to sign any paperwork....what do I have to turn into them? I'm scared s***less about the whole process.

I want to quit this week and get this hell over with......I feel like now is the best time b/c I'm on electives for the next 2 months and it should give them plenty of time to find a replacement.

Please help!

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isn't this a too quick of a decision? do you have a lot of debt? i think many might say to try to finish intern year and leave if you want that way it may be easier to return if you want to go back?
 
I just started intern year and I hate it already.....I've made a bad decision going into medicine b/c I've never really been passionate about it. I literally feel like killing myself everyday I'm at work.

I hope you mean that you "figuratively" feel like killing yourself. If you do indeed mean "literally" please seek the advice of a mental health professional for treatment.

How do I go about quitting the program? Do I talk to the Program Director first?

First, if you are clinically depressed, make no decisions which will have life-long impact.

Secondly, yes, if you are certain that you cannot see yourself happy in any residency program (ie, its not just this one), then you must talk to your program director.

What do I tell them?

The truth. You made a mistake about medicine and that you have thoroughly thought through all your options and have decided that you cannot finish this or any other residency.

What protocols do I have to go through? Do I have to sign any paperwork....what do I have to turn into them? I'm scared s***less about the whole process.

I'm sure they will want you to take some time and think about this decision. They may even suggest that you take some time off before making a final decision (which is an EXCELLENT idea BTW). There is no protocol. This happens every year...this is why residency positions open up in August every year.

I'm sure they'll have you sign something which details that this was your decision, that you were not forced out, not fired, etc. This protects them and essentially prevents them from having to pay unemployment insurance for you. I've never heard of a program requiring you to turn in anything to them, ie proof that you are unhappy.

I want to quit this week and get this hell over with......I feel like now is the best time b/c I'm on electives for the next 2 months and it should give them plenty of time to find a replacement.

Please help!

Maybe a month or two on elective time is the best time to take off...to consider all of your options. I know you didn't ask for advice as to whether or not this is a good decision, but this is a decision that can have lifelong repercussions. So you must be sure.
 
I just started intern year and I hate it already.....I've made a bad decision going into medicine b/c I've never really been passionate about it. I literally feel like killing myself everyday I'm at work.

How do I go about quitting the program? Do I talk to the Program Director first? What do I tell them? What protocols do I have to go through? Do I have to sign any paperwork....what do I have to turn into them? I'm scared s***less about the whole process.

I want to quit this week and get this hell over with......I feel like now is the best time b/c I'm on electives for the next 2 months and it should give them plenty of time to find a replacement.

Please help!

what are you going to do with all that debt? (if you have any). if i had no debt.... 😉
 
I just started intern year and I hate it already.....I've made a bad decision going into medicine b/c I've never really been passionate about it. I literally feel like killing myself everyday I'm at work.

How do I go about quitting the program? Do I talk to the Program Director first? What do I tell them? What protocols do I have to go through? Do I have to sign any paperwork....what do I have to turn into them? I'm scared s***less about the whole process.

I want to quit this week and get this hell over with......I feel like now is the best time b/c I'm on electives for the next 2 months and it should give them plenty of time to find a replacement.

Please help!

Sorry to hear about your experience. goodluck.
 
better to quit now than later. its early enough for it not to matter. you may be locked in for the specialty meaning that if you are in eg. IM you are locked in for a 3yr plan. just give them your notice. 2wks, 30days..etc. look in the house staff handbook. you signed a contract and in it is specified the measures you take to resign. they may convince you to stay. stay strong. get out and find what you really like. residency is tough as it is, no need to hate the specialty too! good luck👍
 
Thanks for all the quick replies. It's good to know there are supporters. This was a tough decision for me (especially being drowned in debt, pressure from my family, etc). I feel trapped b/c it's a lose-lose situation. But I just cannot continue a career that I was not meant for.

I don't know what direction my life will go when I quit.....it's such a scary thought. I have to move back to my parents house and find a new career. I wish there were more opportunities for MD's who haven't gone through residency. I would really appreciate any advice. Has anyone else gone through this situation.....if so, what did you do and how did you get through it???
 
Do not quit until you have something else lined up, i.e. starting the next week/month/whatever. It needs to be a concrete plan, leave feelings out of the decision. Who knows when your next career will begin.
 
I'm sorry you're feeling miserable, and I can understand your wanting to quit. But didn't you just start your internship? I doubt you could possibly know whether this is right for you so soon.

So before you quit, how 'bout seeing a therapist. If you're depressed--and it sounds like you are--your judgment (and for that matter, your ability to enjoy *anything*) is going to be severely impaired.
 
Dear Hello-hi
I hope you were not serious about the wanting to kill yourself part. Please please do not do something like that. A work colleague recently killed himself and everyone is so sad about this. It was an attending and was such a nice person. Please please get some help or personalized message me if you need to talk. I'm an internal med doc so have seen some depressed people, though I'm certainly no expert. Your friends and family would NOT get over it if you hurt yourself in some way.

I agree with others who posted here saying you need to consider all your options before quitting residency. Perhaps it would be better to stay and do your intern year while you think of an exit strategy. I do think that quitting without a discrete plan of what to do next could come back and bite you because it makes you look a little bit like a "quitter". Maybe it would help to talk with the career advisor(s) at your medical school (not residency, the med school you just left) and/or your undergrad to see if they can help you brainstorm about what you like and are good at. There was a woman at my med school who decided she didn't want to do residency and I think went straight into some type of business job. Drug companies do hire MD's I know. I know some foreign medical docs who were hired in the past by Pfizer. A lot of them are research docs but not all. You could go in to some other area of business. Advertising, etc. Or how about one of those consulting companies? You could potentially get a job related to your undergrad major. Just some ideas. You didn't tell us what your undergrad degree was in. Mine was biology. I did 3 years as a lab tech before I went to med school. Not great pay but it will pay the rent and then some, plus you get good benefits if it is a university. Also, I don't think it is true that there are no jobs for someone who hasn't done a residency. Of course if you quit you might be burning some bridges as far as having a clinical career treating patients, but there are other jobs you can get. There was an MD for a while at my undergraduate college who I think had gotten burned out and turned to teaching (he was an immunology instructor).

I think the "quitting" part itself isn't that hard. Your program director will have seen this before. He won't be thrilled, but given a couple of months notice they CAN find someone else. Agree w/the above post I would look in the house staff manual to see what the medical center's policy is about quitting. You don't want to burn bridges in the sense you don't want to make the program director mad at you by giving only a couple weeks notice, etc. If you decide to quit just be honest. Just tell them you realized medicine wasn't for you.

You don't tell us how much money you borrowed for school. Honestly, I borrowed 132k and on a resident salary I was paying that back. It's not easy, but it's possible. It is possible to defer your student loans for a few months if necessary, but if you can it is better to start paying at least the interest. That way your loans don't get bigger and bigger.
 
I am just going to echo what Winged (shouldn't you be in the OR????) said.

Go see your program director. Your PD can help see if some of this is depression, exhaustion, etc. You might be able to take a leave of abscence to take some time and make sure you aren't making a rash decision. They can also help you, if you decide, leave the program.

Be VERY wary. With just a little time into your residency, even consulting jobs will be cautious of why you left. Just realize, there are ways out, there are things you can do, and there are ways to make your experiences better. Take your time and don't do anything rash. You may decide this is not what you want and that's okay. You just want to really make sure its the right decision for you (which is what your PD will want you to do as well).

I would highly recommend a leave of abscence so that you don't endanger any future options.
 
Thanks for all the quick replies. It's good to know there are supporters. This was a tough decision for me (especially being drowned in debt, pressure from my family, etc). I feel trapped b/c it's a lose-lose situation. But I just cannot continue a career that I was not meant for.

I don't know what direction my life will go when I quit.....it's such a scary thought. I have to move back to my parents house and find a new career. I wish there were more opportunities for MD's who haven't gone through residency. I would really appreciate any advice. Has anyone else gone through this situation.....if so, what did you do and how did you get through it???

You're not going to like this.

There's a lot of foolishness out there in society about careers people are meant for. According to such people, unless you find your one true calling you won't be happy. This is a completely ******ed concept. Look - the bottom line is that when push comes to shove, medicine is a job...just like any number of other jobs out there. Yes, there is a strong service/social justice component to medicine, but the bottom line of work for any living breathing human is to maximize the quality of the food on the table and a the roof over your head. Work is an obligation - an often upleasant obligation - not a hobby...and overly philosophical pablum about callings doesn't sound quite so profound when you can't afford braces for the kids or new tires for the car.

If you're incompetent as a doctor...if you can't take care of your patients appropriately...then get out - but I suspect you aren't. I suspect this is just an issue of you misunderstanding happiness.

Given where the economy is going today, even residency puts you in a pretty good spot. $45,000 a year with full benefits and a vacation is something that a large number of Americans will never see in life. Times are going to get very very hard in America. We could easily fall into a second great depression. Just how do you propose to pay off your student loans when while you are living with your parents trying to find yourself?

Perhaps you're in the wrong specialty. Transfer to another residency. Perhaps you're at the wrong program, or in the wrong part of the country. These things can also be fixed.

But walking away is a really bad career move.
 
I just started intern year and I hate it already.....I've made a bad decision going into medicine b/c I've never really been passionate about it. I literally feel like killing myself everyday I'm at work.

How do I go about quitting the program? Do I talk to the Program Director first? What do I tell them? What protocols do I have to go through? Do I have to sign any paperwork....what do I have to turn into them? I'm scared s***less about the whole process.

I want to quit this week and get this hell over with......I feel like now is the best time b/c I'm on electives for the next 2 months and it should give them plenty of time to find a replacement.

Please help!

Look, if you can't stand this mother****er for structural reasons then just quit, allowing of course for the notification period specified in your contract. You don't owe anybody anything beyond that and your hospital will not grind to halt because you leave. Such problems this will cause are not your problem anyway.

Once you decide to quit, there is nothing to sign or any paperwork of consequence. You are quitting. You are allowed to quit. It's no different than any other job and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. You will have to give them your ID badge, your pager, and any other hospital property they issued to you but these you can cheerfully throw at them on your way out with a jaunty, "Here, take the mother****ers."

They will not refuse to allow you to quit because of some arcane paperwork.

My only caution is that you establish, clearly, that you are quitting because you despise medicine in general and not just your program or your specialty. Most people intensely dislike intern year but, as much as I hate this mother****er known as residency it does get better...much better.

You also may want to consider just sucking it up and finishing your intern year. To quit outright is fine if you know you don't want to be a practicing physician but you will burn a major bridge and if, for some reason, you change your mind it will be that much harder to get back into a residency program. If you know you are going to quit after a year then you can relax, kick back, and as much as your schedule allows enjoy your year and every time some senior resident or attending harrasses you just smile and say, "Hey, mother****er, I'm outta' here in three months. Screw you." (But say it in a polite format of course).
 
You're not going to like this.

There's a lot of foolishness out there in society about careers people are meant for. According to such people, unless you find your one true calling you won't be happy. This is a completely ******ed concept. Look - the bottom line is that when push comes to shove, medicine is a job...just like any number of other jobs out there. Yes, there is a strong service/social justice component to medicine, but the bottom line of work for any living breathing human is to maximize the quality of the food on the table and a the roof over your head. Work is an obligation - an often upleasant obligation - not a hobby...and overly philosophical pablum about callings doesn't sound quite so profound when you can't afford braces for the kids or new tires for the car.

If you're incompetent as a doctor...if you can't take care of your patients appropriately...then get out - but I suspect you aren't. I suspect this is just an issue of you misunderstanding happiness.

Given where the economy is going today, even residency puts you in a pretty good spot. $45,000 a year with full benefits and a vacation is something that a large number of Americans will never see in life. Times are going to get very very hard in America. We could easily fall into a second great depression. Just how do you propose to pay off your student loans when while you are living with your parents trying to find yourself?

Perhaps you're in the wrong specialty. Transfer to another residency. Perhaps you're at the wrong program, or in the wrong part of the country. These things can also be fixed.

But walking away is a really bad career move.

Good Lord. An intelligent, rational medical student.
 
You're not going to like this.

There's a lot of foolishness out there in society about careers people are meant for. According to such people, unless you find your one true calling you won't be happy. This is a completely ******ed concept. Look - the bottom line is that when push comes to shove, medicine is a job...just like any number of other jobs out there. Yes, there is a strong service/social justice component to medicine, but the bottom line of work for any living breathing human is to maximize the quality of the food on the table and a the roof over your head. Work is an obligation - an often upleasant obligation - not a hobby...and overly philosophical pablum about callings doesn't sound quite so profound when you can't afford braces for the kids or new tires for the car.

If you're incompetent as a doctor...if you can't take care of your patients appropriately...then get out - but I suspect you aren't. I suspect this is just an issue of you misunderstanding happiness.

Given where the economy is going today, even residency puts you in a pretty good spot. $45,000 a year with full benefits and a vacation is something that a large number of Americans will never see in life. Times are going to get very very hard in America. We could easily fall into a second great depression. Just how do you propose to pay off your student loans when while you are living with your parents trying to find yourself?

Perhaps you're in the wrong specialty. Transfer to another residency. Perhaps you're at the wrong program, or in the wrong part of the country. These things can also be fixed.

But walking away is a really bad career move.

Listen to Old_Mil.
P.S. I would rate this post by Old_Mil as a 10 out of 10 post.
 
I too endorse Old_Mil's post. Very well said.


But I just want to caution that, to be fair, their are some people who are unsuited for some jobs and you have to find what you do for a living, if not intensely pleasurable, at least tolerable. No need to stick with something because you are afraid of trying something different.
 
The only reason I would actually support OP quitting is that medicine doesn't necessarily strike me as a profession you can just manage through life with. That will be like staying married to a cheating spouse who is hell bent on continuing to cheat. The constant stimulus will drive you nuts.

I would say plan a feasible exit strategy with minimal damage (financially for the most part). Like someone pointed out, the economy is on the brink of something funky, and i am not sure this is the best time to be adventurous with your profession. Remember those investment bankers we so much celebrate on SDN, well a lot of them are sweating bullets as we speak seeing as financial institutions are going under left and right. Beware!!
 
But I just want to caution that, to be fair, their are some people who are unsuited for some jobs and you have to find what you do for a living, if not intensely pleasurable, at least tolerable. No need to stick with something because you are afraid of trying something different.

Medicine is so broad that there is bound to be a satisfactory niche for a person who has completed four years of med school. Pathology, Anesthesia, Bench research, even consulting all have very different lifestyles. These opportunities will only be available to you if you stick it out through intern year. So think twice before quitting. Good luck.
 
I will tell you my experience of quitting. I was in my first two weeks of a family practice residency I did not love, but was willing to do. Originally, I applied to a different specialty that I did not match into. Rather than go empty handed, I applied to a few family residency spots. I was happy to have a job, but very unhappy that I would not be able to change my job to something different. Everyone knows that you can't just switch fields with the snap of your fingers. I was not aware of the funding rules, which are completely insane. I was there for two weeks, why should my funding now be limitied to 3 years????? You get f*****. Huge bills to pay and no way to find a job that will pay that bad boy down.

No wonder physicians have the highest suicide rate of all professionals. I did not match this year into my chosen field either. So, again, no job for another year. I quit and I believe the program director didn't care one bit. In fact, believe it pleased him to see me leave. I have run accross so many attendings that are not there to teach, program directors who don't want to work, they hire hoping that there life will somehow get easier by getting docs that are already experienced in their field, ie attendings from foreign countries. Its a crap shoot.

Believe me, this is just a job....there are other things in this world that we can do. Unfortunately, you will have a hard time paying those debts back. If you have federal loans, there are some provisions that allow you to get out of some of the debts, such as working for the peace corps (Not a bad idea), teaching for government institutions and so on. You can look that up at the Department of Educations website. Private loans, well, they are animals and will do all they can to take your life away. There are no provisions to terminate your loans at all. They now have the same protections against bankruptcy that federal loans do. If you had some terminal illness you possibly could get them bankrupt by hardship.

My situation might be different than yours. I am a US citizen, foreign grad. The red headed step sister, all programs hate us, US grads hate us. Recently, a hospital in Nevada just got remmanded for abusing foreign doctors. They admitted they had no plans to graduate these physicians. They admitted they only hired them to take care of their patients. Remember, they don't own you. Your family loves you and will want you to be happy even if they don't understand the reasoning. Who cares what others may think. People outside of medicine have no clue the crap that you have had to go through...with such a narrow choice of options if you decide to break ranks.

I have not stopped working for my spot. I am studying to pass step 3 and will apply again to my chosen field. Don't worry, it is not Derm or Plastics...I know my place.
 
Dang, this must be the season for quiting.
 
Recently, a hospital in Nevada just got remmanded for abusing foreign doctors. They admitted they had no plans to graduate these physicians. They admitted they only hired them to take care of their patients.

yea and a group of GI docs in Vegas comprised of foreign grads reused needles for procedures for years leading to a spike in HepC cases. There's a reason you are deemed inferior, your training is crap
 
fro
that was uncalled for
I graduated from a "top 5" US allopathic med school, but I don't think I'm superior to the whole world.
It is true that some US IMG's had trouble w/standardized tests and that is why they had to go abroad to med school, but it's also true that there are far more qualified US college students than those who can get a spot in our med schools. We have a goofy system where we don't want to make enough doctors, so instead we import them every year from other countries (or re-import our own docs who have gone abroad to school).

You can't tar everyone with the same brush. There are some smart people who are just jerks and won't excel in patient care even though they went to a good med school here in the US. There are some who will be very good docs despite training abroad.

p.s. I'm not sure the teaching at my "top" US med school was so stellar, to be honest, though I only attended one med school so not much basis for comparison. I think one learns a lot of the important stuff during residency. Not to say med school is unimportant,but ultimately a lot of medicine is about self motivation and what you can teach yourself.
 
FRO,

Are you saying that USgrads don't f**k up?? Don't make me bring up all the malpractice cases involved with USgrads....or the thousands upon thousands of suspensions that are available for the public to see on the state government websites.....

FRO you are a TOOL:laugh:


Point is well all make mistakes regardless of training. Last time I checked, we are all human.
 
The decision to quit or to stay is different for everyone, but I just thought I'd share that sometimes it pays to just back off a little when things get overwhelming. I personally go to the nearest restroom and just close my eyes for about 2 minutes. Or I walk or go for a stroll. Of course, it's hard when things are so overwhelming I can't seem to back off...then I just pop a Reese's in my mouth and figure I can still enjoy this.
It's a season for quitting only because it really is tough for some to take on the residency asap. The learning curve is pretty steep. It looks like an assault on Mt. Everest for the people lagging behind. I'm hoping I won't fall into the mentality of over-generalization like "I cannot do this," or "I will never get this" or "I will never be happy here" but those words do come by my head a lot, and I just try to rationalize that 5 minutes ago, I did not know about that secret corridor, or about that what-in-the-world drug. And in truth, even I find my super irritating lost moments quite funny as anecdotes.
Still, if medicine really is a job and you don't really like it, people have crossed over. But in fairness as a very nice attending told me, "Just remember, residency is NOT medicine."
Good luck:luck:
 
Thanks for all the quick replies. It's good to know there are supporters. This was a tough decision for me (especially being drowned in debt, pressure from my family, etc). I feel trapped b/c it's a lose-lose situation. But I just cannot continue a career that I was not meant for.

I don't know what direction my life will go when I quit.....it's such a scary thought. I have to move back to my parents house and find a new career. I wish there were more opportunities for MD's who haven't gone through residency. I would really appreciate any advice. Has anyone else gone through this situation.....if so, what did you do and how did you get through it???

Hi ,

I was in a situation similar to yours. I hated medicine and did not enjoy my work. I took a year off after my "first" internship. I worked in a microbiology lab and moonlighted in a psych hospital. It is difficult to find work if you haven't completed a residency. That said ,if you can stick it out and complete your internship you can take step 3 and obtain an unrestricted medical license. With a medical license you can work as a physician.

My problem was that I was in the wrong specialty. I have found a specialty that fits my personality and interests well. I think that a lot of the unhappiness in medicine comes from someone having to work extremely hard @ something that they are not really interested in. Sometimes we choose the wrong specialty based on poor or incomplete information. I am not saying that this is your situation but I know that it is the case for a lot of us.

I would suggest that you complete your internship. Think about what you really like doing and why you do not like what you are doing now. Take everything that you are told with a grain of salt. A lot of my friends in medicine told me that I would be able to find a job doing research during the year that I took off. No research lab would hire me. One lab ofered me an unpaid position. I was able to work in ca clinical microbiology lab because I was a med tech prior to going to med school. I worked in the micro lab before I received my medical license.

If you are completely miserable and depressed do what you have to do to preserve your sanity. If you are just bored and not being challenged in the ways that you want to be challenged try to hold on. Really explore your interests to determine what specialty may suit you better. Medicine is like a salad at a buffet there is usually something for everyone.

Cambie
 
Medicine is so broad that there is bound to be a satisfactory niche for a person who has completed four years of med school. Pathology, "]Anesthesia,Bench research, even consulting all have very different lifestyles. These opportunities will only be available to you if you stick it out through intern year. So think twice before quitting. Good luck.




This is very true. I hope that everyone out there who is unhappy understands this.

Cambie
 
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I just started intern year and I hate it already.....I've made a bad decision going into medicine b/c I've never really been passionate about it. I literally feel like killing myself everyday I'm at work.

How do I go about quitting the program? Do I talk to the Program Director first? What do I tell them? What protocols do I have to go through? Do I have to sign any paperwork....what do I have to turn into them? I'm scared s***less about the whole process.

I want to quit this week and get this hell over with......I feel like now is the best time b/c I'm on electives for the next 2 months and it should give them plenty of time to find a replacement.

Please help!

First off, you sound like an epic whimp. Step back and man up a bit.

Has anyone physically abused you?? Have you been forced to work more than 12 hours without food and water???

Likely no.

Your choice of training location and perhaps specialty sounds like it doesnt fit, THE SKY IS NOT FALLING!

Do not panic and give up on medicine just yet (although in all honesty it may simply not be for you).

Look at other specialities, locations. Tell your PD this isnt working out and give them 2 weeks notice.
 
Does not sound like a whimp to me. In fact that sounds like it is coming from someone who does not really care about people in general.

These are hard decisions to make. In medicine, the job market does not allow one to just go find another job tomorrow or next week...can't just pick up things and move/start all over. No, in fact, the archaic way residency is setup only benefits the programs, not the resident. I mean come on....Residency only starts once per year????? What the hell, that is the most ridiculous employment ruling ever. The next most stupid is that you only get funding for the residency you chose in the first place...even if you don't complete it...ie, in his case like only two weeks. You are forever trapped. Need I go on? Yes, foreign graduates can accept a prematch and US grads can't. Sounds to me like program directors have waaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyy too much power. Oh, and I like this one as well, if you cant get bankrupt student loans unless you are terminal.....and that is only for federal loans, cant bankrupt private loans even if you are terminal or dead. Didn't know that....???? In fact those loans can be placed upon your heirs and parents...family. Any pressure there?????

No residency is unlike any normal corporate job. You owe your life to the program director. They are the gatekeepers. Residency and medicine in general is the most restrictive field to work. You are screwed if you want to try a new field in medicine, and all program directors know it, and by God use it to their advantage.

I mean the creditors don't care if you can't find work for a year. They don't care you can't touch patients without a license. Don't care that your chances of residency decrease because of perceptions program directors have on someone switching residency. Don't care that you may have children to feed, parents to watch, need to pay that 200K+ loan back.

No resident should feel like they are stuck in their field....Program director positions need to be scaled back to "Teaching" and coordinating teaching. Major overhaul is need, and I think the only way it is going to happen is either in the courts (they seem to legislate these days) or the federal government....Since the public is paying taxes, which are then sent to government, which pays the salaries of program directors and residents.....Program directors working for the public...do they see it that way???
 
I suggest at least coming up with a better exit strategy. Lots of docs end up running wineries or restaurants or other businesses. One guy just showed up in the national press because he quit nephrology to blog full-time (not your average blog...he gets 10 million hits a month).

But to walk away from a stable, well-paying gig with no other prospects and significant debt is well beyond your average bad idea. I'd think there are either serious emotional/mental issues at play, or the OP hasn't told us the whole story. The job isn't THAT bad, even if it's not your calling. It ain't the freaking Gulag. 😕
 
I forgot to add this one.....

Last year, after i quit my residency after two weeks, I did a month in my favoritist field, and loved it very much, thought they loved me. I even gave the resident I followed around and the program director a nice parting gift...don't worry it wasn't money, just some old cake from the hospital cafe(come to think of it, that may have been an isult). Anywho, I never did get asked to come in for an interview after that rotation. I called and spoke to the program director just to let them know that I loved the program and would love to work there, he didn't say anything and seemed to just want to get off the phone. I obtained excellent letters from a few attendings and interviewed at a few places....ended up not matching.

Anyway, while I was there, the program director spoke about one spot availble for fellowship at their program. At least they had a spot! Then I found out from one of the residents that the spot was currently filled by his WIFE! Out of all the people that sent in apps, lors, and possibly flew there on their own dime....the program director thought his wife deserved that spot, the only spot. This wife did not do the residency at this program...therefore any of the residents that really wanted that spot, got shoved out. I believe, this is the definition of "NEPOTISM". What is funny is that, in the city there were other fellowship opportunites in the exact same field available to the said wife.....hmmmm.

I thought this only happened at family owned business😱

Any program director kind enough to comment on this???
 
From Faebinder who is doing a semi-second internship...

I don't care if all your "closest" relatives are dying.. I don't care if you say your kids are exploding... I don't care if you say your heart is going into A fib... even if you had a car accident and broke 5 bones....
FINISH YOUR INTERNSHIP FIRST!

It's the only way you have a chance. You can quit after that... Nothing short of a serious stage cancer or a massive MI should stop you from finishing that cursed year. At least with that one year... if you try to come back you will have a chance.
 
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At the risk of getting flamed:

Does not sound like a whimp to me. In fact that sounds like it is coming from someone who does not really care about people in general.

If this is the case, then medicine is not a great choice of careers obviously. Some fields have less patient contact -- path, rads, etc. But in general, if you're not at least somewhat a "people person", medicine is going to be a tough road.

These are hard decisions to make. In medicine, the job market does not allow one to just go find another job tomorrow or next week......can't just pick up things and move/start all over.

Many professional jobs are like this. That's what makes them professional. Most senior business exec's won't just quit their job -- they ensure that there is a transition plan. If you're a lawyer, you can't just quit and drop your cases. There are always exceptions, but in general being a professional involves a commitment. If you flip burgers, then you can quit any day you like. But the burger flipper manager, or his/her manager -- somewhere up the line -- is someone who has a professional commitment to not simply quit.

No, in fact, the archaic way residency is setup only benefits the programs, not the resident.

This is a gross overgeneralization. There are many good residency programs out there that treat their residents well, teach them, mentor them, and support them. I have personally made many sacrifices for my residents. Perhaps I am in the minority.

I mean come on....Residency only starts once per year????? What the hell, that is the most ridiculous employment ruling ever.

Residency is a (somewhat) unhappy marriage between a job and education. We have a defined curriculum -- we cover more basic topics in July/August, and then move on to more complicated topics later. We expect more of our interns after their first six months of training. All of this would be much more difficult if residents started any time they wanted.

Medical schools all graduate in May/June, so we really only have a choice of starting in July. Even if medical schools started to "stagger" it would be a mess --- what happens if your medical school graduates in December, but the program you want starts in July? Or November?

We could get into a shouting match about "the match", whether it's fair or not, etc. The fact remains that the match is a plus for the vast majority of applicants. Several of the IM fellowships did not have a match until recently, and getting spots was an absolute nightmare. A match requires that all programs start at the same time to work.

And, if you need a spot off cycle, the fact is that you can usually find one. Finding one is hard, because there is no one place that all of these positions are listed, no uniform application, etc. Interestingly, this is exactly what happens when there isn't a match -- it's a free-for-all and residents tend to lose.

England had a system like this in the recent past. You simply had to apply for "attachments" whihc could be anywhere from 6-18 months long. As there was no uniform system, it was all about connections and who you knew. If you didn't know anyone, you were screwed. England has switched to a new system which is a complete disaster, but that's another story.

The next most stupid is that you only get funding for the residency you chose in the first place...even if you don't complete it...ie, in his case like only two weeks. You are forever trapped.

What's crazy is that the federal gov't pays for this at all. I guess it's in our best national interest to have quality physicians, but I would expect that the free market could do that without the feds getting in the mix. Medicare had to limit the amount it was spending on resident training - and still it's going bankrupt. I do agree with you, though, that it would be better if the gov't funded a resident until they were BE once (instead of setting a fixed number of years based upon your first training).

Need I go on? Yes, foreign graduates can accept a prematch and US grads can't.

Be my guest and ask any IMG if they feel that this process is unfairly tilted towards them. Prematching can be a nightmare. I can't tell you how many PM's I get from IMG's, telling me that program A has said that they will rank them highly, program B offered a prematch. They want program A, but it's so hard to let a sure thing go. This is what happens when there isn't a match.

Sounds to me like program directors have waaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyy too much power.

It certainly is true that PD's have a lot of responsibility. I need to decide whether residents are ready to be promoted, how to address residents who struggle, how to balance institutional needs with residency needs, and occasionally help someone find a new path in life. The fact remains: some people who graduate from medical school will never finish a residency. The number is very small, but it is there. Either programs need to serve this function, or we let everyone through and then deal with it when patients start dying.

What EVERY PD would like, trust me, is a purely objective way of deciding whether a resident is proficient/competent. Sometimes it's very clear, but many times it's not. We all struggle with this. Personally, I don't think there will ever be any true test for competency -- it's too complex / non-linear.

Oh, and I like this one as well, if you cant get bankrupt student loans unless you are terminal.....and that is only for federal loans, cant bankrupt private loans even if you are terminal or dead. Didn't know that....???? In fact those loans can be placed upon your heirs and parents...family. Any pressure there?????

Let me see if I get this straight:

1. You borrow money from someone to get something (an education)
2. You change you mind about what you want to do / don't complete training / fail out / etc.
3. You think that the large loan you took out should simply go away. This means that someone else loses a bunch of money.

This is somewhat dangerous thinking. Someone loaned you their money. Why should they lose their money because you changed your mind?

More importantly, it has serious downstream consequences. If you only had to pay back your loans if you actually finish your training, then the loan originators would be forced to decide "how likely" you were to succeed. Less "academically talented" (however we want to define that) candidates for medical school might find that they can't get loans at all. People who make loans do so to make money, and they won't take bad risks. neither should the gov't -- it's going bankrupt itself as we speak.

I was unaware that heirs / parents would be liable for your loans, unless your parents cosign your loan agreements, at which point they are of course just as liable as you are.

To be fair, the problem here is our bankruptcy system. It has been abused badly in the past, and successful lobbying has now adjusted it to make it much more difficult to file. There were multiple cases of residents filing for bankruptcy because their residency salary couldn't pay their loans, only to then go out and make $300K+ in a few years. One of my patients came to me a few years ago (before the laws were tightened) and told me that she was in the process of getting as many credit cards as possible, charging them all up on a big vacation, and then filing for bankruptcy. To make things better, a friend of hers was doing it with her.

I mean the creditors don't care if you can't find work for a year. They don't care you can't touch patients without a license. Don't care that your chances of residency decrease because of perceptions program directors have on someone switching residency. Don't care that you may have children to feed, parents to watch, need to pay that 200K+ loan back.

And this is different from other jobs in what way? Creditors in general do not care if you can't find a job -- in fact, that makes them more desperate, as they worry that you'll never pay them. And, many of us take out loans well beyond our means, such that if anything happens so that we can't pay, and interest accrues unabated, that we can never pay it back.

Many people across the US are losing their houses because they have large loans, lost their job, and can't pay. There is no free ride here, and you just can;t make your loans disappear, just like you can't make your other responsibilities disappear (family, kids, food, heat, etc)

No resident should feel like they are stuck in their field....

I completely agree with this statement. And, if the jist of your post was that it is inherently difficult to change training fields in medicine, I agree with that too. Still, many, many people do it every year. It takes work, and it's not easy, but it can be done. Again, I expect this is similar to other porfessional fields -- if you have been working as a corporate lawyer for awhile and wake up one day and want to do trial work, I doubt it will be as easy as walking into your boss's office and telling them you've changed your mind.

Program director positions need to be scaled back to "Teaching" and coordinating teaching. Major overhaul is need, and I think the only way it is going to happen is either in the courts (they seem to legislate these days) or the federal government....Since the public is paying taxes, which are then sent to government, which pays the salaries of program directors and residents.....Program directors working for the public...do they see it that way???

This is a very simplistic view of the world. Somebody has to administer the program -- if it's not the PD then whom? The government? Personally I would love to do just teaching. Then I wouldn;t need to read those 1000 applications carefully. I wouldn't need to help a resident who wasn't doing well get back on track. I wouldn't need to negotiate with Cardiology/ICU/Heme-Onc for better rotations. Forget about worrying about lunches for conferences, getting laptops/handhelds for my residents, helping my residents get fellowships and negotiate the "first job" process, oversee all of the subspecialty fellowship directors, keep abreast of the national changes coming down the pike, address duty hours and try to improve our performance, prepare the 300+ page report required for ACGME visits -- one for my program and one for each of our 11 fellowships. Yes, now that I think of it, it would be great to just focus on teaching.

Being a program director is a thankless job. Faculty complain and push for more resident work. Admin pushes for more resident scut. Residents are the highlight of my day -- they are usually upbeat and energetic, although I certainly get many complaints / concerns from them also. The average "lifespan" of an IM PD is 2-3 years, and it doesn't surprise me at all.

A very small part of my salary comes indirectly from tax dollars. I and most of my colleagues work very hard, and get paid a lot less than we could make in the private sector. None of us is doing this for the money, or because it's an easy job.

I do work for the public good. "Public" is everybody, not just your needs. My job is to help train new physicians and to stop people who are not comepetent in this field from injuring patients. That is my public commitement. If you come to my program, I promose you I will work my hardest to help you be the best IM physician you can be. If you change your mind during your training program, I will certainly not get in your way of changing. In fact, I will help point you in the right direction. However, finding a new training program is your responsibility. I doubt that any of your old bosses, if you told them you were unhappy, would help you find another job.
 
I forgot to add this one.....

Last year, after i quit my residency after two weeks, I did a month in my favoritist field, and loved it very much, thought they loved me. I even gave the resident I followed around and the program director a nice parting gift...don't worry it wasn't money, just some old cake from the hospital cafe(come to think of it, that may have been an isult). Anywho, I never did get asked to come in for an interview after that rotation. I called and spoke to the program director just to let them know that I loved the program and would love to work there, he didn't say anything and seemed to just want to get off the phone. I obtained excellent letters from a few attendings and interviewed at a few places....ended up not matching.

Anyway, while I was there, the program director spoke about one spot availble for fellowship at their program. At least they had a spot! Then I found out from one of the residents that the spot was currently filled by his WIFE! Out of all the people that sent in apps, lors, and possibly flew there on their own dime....the program director thought his wife deserved that spot, the only spot. This wife did not do the residency at this program...therefore any of the residents that really wanted that spot, got shoved out. I believe, this is the definition of "NEPOTISM". What is funny is that, in the city there were other fellowship opportunites in the exact same field available to the said wife.....hmmmm.

I thought this only happened at family owned business😱

Any program director kind enough to comment on this???

As for the first paragraph, perhaps you are a nice guy/gal but not competitive for the spot in other ways. Just because you did a rotation there and gave them a present, doesn't mean they have to give you a spot. In general, most program have a very low threshold to let people do a rotation.

And, giving people stale old cake is probably not a good idea.😀

As for the second, we only have half the story so I can't tell you. Certainly the PD's wife shouldn't be barred from the spot because of their relationship -- that seems patently unfair also. It does happen that I have a "conflict of interest" with a resident -- perhaps I know their parents, or I had a resident who was a medical student with me (he took a long time to complete a PhD). In cases like this, if it's uncomfortable at all, I make sure that I am not in charge of any of their evaluations nor their position on the rank list. That's why I have a team I work with, and I pass those responsibilities to them.

So, perhaps she was the best candidate. Perhaps all the candidates were "tied" (which they often are) and they decided to match her so that the PD wouldn't leave to join her wherever she went. When programs are small, decisions will be made on issues like this. This is no different from any other field.

As I've mentioned before, if we're only going to pick people based on "objective" measures of who is best, then we can really only rely on USMLE scores. And we all know that's ridiculous. Subjective issues come into play.

You can be angry you didn't get a spot, but I expect that has a lot to do with your application. If you;d like my honest opinion, you can feel free to PM me your stats/application/field and I'd be happy to help (and anything you send me remains private).

And, I should add, that if I was hiring someone who left their last job after just two weeks, medicine or anything else, I would at least think twice about hiring them. Switching jobs frequently / short hiring periods are often the sign of trouble. Doesn't mean I wouldn't hire you, but it would make me think twice and look at your application closely.
 
So wise, APD. As always. 👍
 
1. You borrow money from someone to get something (an education)
2. You change you mind about what you want to do / don't complete training / fail out / etc.
3. You think that the large loan you took out should simply go away. This means that someone else loses a bunch of money.

This is somewhat dangerous thinking. Someone loaned you their money. Why should they lose their money because you changed your mind?

There aren't any good solutions to the medical student or intern who finds out that medicine is the wrong career choice. I agree with you that it would be unfair to the lender to let a med student/intern walk away from their loans. On the other hand, the current gov policy of treating educational loans different from other debts encourages med students to stick with medicine even if they find out the hate the field after a few years, leading to some bitter doctors (I realize the gov doesn't care how doctors feel, but who want's to be a bitter doctor's patient?).

I agree with Faebinder and the other posters about internship- if you've made it that far in the process, you need to suck it up and finish your internship. If you leave mid-year, your career is over and you will probably be in debt for the rest of your life. It's only 4000 hours.
 
Does not sound like a whimp to me. In fact that sounds like it is coming from someone who does not really care about people in general.


That's correct, LADoc does not care about "people in general"; he cares about himself, first and foremost, and it is for that reason that we salute and honor him.👍
 
That's correct, LADoc does not care about "people in general"; he cares about himself, first and foremost, and it is for that reason that we salute and honor him.👍


LOL this thread isnt about me but nice try..🙄

but yes I believe in John Galt and emulate Galt, if you can grasp that reference.
 
As others have pointed out: finish your internship.

Then, consider all the possibilities. Many people forget about preventive medicine and public health. You can apply your medical knowledge and improve health on a population level. There are many exciting non-clinical opportunities as well.
 
There aren't any good solutions to the medical student or intern who finds out that medicine is the wrong career choice. I agree with you that it would be unfair to the lender to let a med student/intern walk away from their loans. On the other hand, the current gov policy of treating educational loans different from other debts encourages med students to stick with medicine even if they find out the hate the field after a few years, leading to some bitter doctors (I realize the gov doesn't care how doctors feel, but who want's to be a bitter doctor's patient?).

I agree with Faebinder and the other posters about internship- if you've made it that far in the process, you need to suck it up and finish your internship. If you leave mid-year, your career is over and you will probably be in debt for the rest of your life. It's only 4000 hours.

Great post.
 
Many professional jobs are like this. That's what makes them professional. Most senior business exec's won't just quit their job -- they ensure that there is a transition plan. If you're a lawyer, you can't just quit and drop your cases. There are always exceptions, but in general being a professional involves a commitment. If you flip burgers, then you can quit any day you like. But the burger flipper manager, or his/her manager -- somewhere up the line -- is someone who has a professional commitment to not simply quit.
.

This is part of the reason problems in the system are not self correcting. Resident physicians really have no way of dealing with program violations. I was looking at ACGME rules regarding IM, which states as an example, a PGY1 not be responsible for more than 12 ongoing patients. I am not sure if it is the same for FM, but I have old census sheets showing 15. I had few days less than 12. But what could any PGY 1 do about it? nothing. I am sure there are thousands in the same situation.

Restaurant owners are sometimes humbled by worker(s) quitting. That power of the worker forces at least some civility. Having employed dozens of people over almost 2 decades, having worked for years as a teacher, and having worked in many menial jobs - medicine by far has the worst behaved "bosses" of anything I have experienced.

I encountered behavior by an attending far courser than I would have expected when I worked at Burger King 30 years ago. One would expect certain higher characteristics to accompany the title of "professional", which would encompass some integrity, compassion, honesty.

I would say , if not par for the course, it is certainly not unusual for programs to lie about what they offer, cheat on rules designed for the safety of patients and welfare of residents, and consistently exhibit abuses.

If residents could quit or walk away without the huge penalties that follow, it would bring about changes in programs. But 99.99% of residents are slaves to their loans and cannot walk. Since they cannot walk the programs can violate work hour rules, violate how many patients a resident cares for, and treat residents worse than prisoners in chain gangs are treated (saying this while living in a state with roadside chain gangs and having done prison rotations in medical school).

If we assume there is a sound rationale for limiting the number of in-patients a PGY1 resident be responsible for, in regards to patient safety - a true professional would protest violations out of commitment. However no statistically significant number of residents could protest such violations because of the natural consequences that would follow.

And there is nothing a resident can do - they really cannot report violations to ACGME, they cannot quit and complaints might be met with retaliation.

Medicine is a horribly problematic path - 4 years of undergrad, 4 years of med school, then 3+ years of residency - and if something goes wrong anywhere along the way, then you are an over-educated but unemployable person. So who would protest PGY1 no matter how many violations exist?

And as a result violations persist.
 
Yes, Doowai, some RRC violations exist, even at the bigger name programs and ones that have no IMG's, though I think gross violations are more common at some of the programs with a lot of IMG's. I spent several rotations with >12 patients on my list a good bit of the time...technically I had a resident on my team and that is how they got away with it, but I was the one writing pretty much all the notes, taking all pages from nurses about the patients, etc. so essentially I was the one with the 15 or 16 patients.

But this thread is about whether hello-hi should quit internship, and whether things are going to get better, whether he/she will feel "smarter" soon. The answer to the "will things get better?" and "will I feel smarter?" questions are that I am 99% sure the answer is yet. And he/she should NOT quit internship. That just makes him/her look like a quitter which won't help for getting any future job, whether that is public health, a nonmedical job, a different residency, or an upper level family practice residency somewhere else or at the program she is in.

It sounds totally awful and it's definitely not fun, but hospitalists in practice often have a good deal more patients that this, so it can be done. The difference is when you are a lower level intern/resident it takes you longer to get things done and you know less. Even just from what he/she is learning knowledge-wise, learning the "system" and computers, etc. in a certain hospital, and learning to write notes and make decisions quicker, things are sure to get better for hello_hi within 6 months if he/she just will stick it out. And if you (doowai) plan to do another residency, then you can expect to sometimes be put in a situation that seems unfair, and WILL be high pressure, and sometimes it WILL be a little unfair. But life is unfair and medicine is a hard profession. We get paid a lot (eventually) in part because what we do is hard and requires high level skills. If medicine was easy everyone would do it. Also, there are other professions where people are treated harshly as part of their training (military, for one...). I'm not saying I totally agree with it, but to become too preoccupied with the "unfairness" of it all while an intern just leads to depression and spending energy on things that are not productive, like worrying. Still, I agree with some of your points and now that I will soon be in a position where I have significantly more power than most interns/residents, hopefully I'll have a chance to modify some of this malignancy, if I see it happening to med students and interns.
 
You need to sit down, have a chat about this with someone you trust (family, friend, whatever) and make a decision real quick. You will invest way too much time, money and emotion in med school and subsequent training to keep with it if you're questioning your decision now. If your med school is like most, even if you go past the tuition deadline and withdraw, you'd probably only owe a fraction of your first semester tuition and they may even give you a break on that.

Figure out why you wanted to go to med school/be a doctor, figure out why you don't like med school and figure out what else you'd do w/ your life and do it all right now.

Good luck.
 
You are in your 3rd month of residency. I suppose that could be enough time to realize you are unhappy with your field of choice. As someone already alluded to, you should make sure your unhappiness doesn't have more to do with the people you've worked with so far or the specialty or the program you're with.

I disagree with old mil. Medicine is unique among jobs in that it requires a certain degree of commitment to responsibility to a degree that most other jobs do not require. It requires a lot of emotional restraint and strength. It requires frequently putting the needs of others (your patients) before yours or those you love. This is all a sacrifice to a great extent.

I also disagree in that a job is just a job. It makes me so sad to see unhappy people working in jobs they hate. Granted, this could have something to do with their work environment or superiors, so a change in location is all that they could need to be happier. It can also have something to do with the unhappy person's attitude. I do believe that it is possible to be happy in one's job, and that it is important to find a job one is happy with.

To be happy doing medicine, you have to LOVE what you are doing. It is too big a sacrifice and commitment. If you hate medicine, you should quit once you're sure of this, and find another career. Life is too short to be unhappy with what you're doing, especially when it's such a hugely full time job as medicine. I cant imagine how unbearable residency would be if i didn't love what i was doing. Time would go soooooooooo slow. Actually, i was in that situation in a different specialty. I was to the point that I was jealous of the workers at the local Wendy's. I was cursing the day I decided to go to med school. Let me tell you. . .I quit. I did give lots of notice. And no it wasn't a big burden on the program. And yes they tried to intimidate me into staying. I did have another position lined up though when I quit (in a different medical specialty in which I am INFINITELY happier and that suits me 200% better). I did consult with a lawyer during this process, because I did not have Panda Bear's sage advice that there is nothing the program could do to stop me from resigning (and this was probably my biggest fear). The lawyer told me exactly what Panda said. You should look at your contract and see if there are any specifics regarding voluntary resignation policies. If there is nothing about it, then just pick a reasonable amount of notice time that would minimize the burden on your program and give WRITTEN notice. Send the notice to your PD and cc'd to the GME office at a minimum. Putting things in writing is key. The hospital cant keep you against your will. You are not a slave (some people would argue this . . .😛).

Even though my case is different in that I switched specialties, as people here have said, there are tons of options other than medicine. Personally, I dont think loans are such a huge hurdle to worry about. If you choose to law school or grad school or business school, your loans can then be deferred since you would be a full time student again (remember those in-school deferments??😍). Once you graduate, you can find a decent paying job (not sure about grad school, but with an MBA or JD, you definitely can), and in less or the same amount of time that you would have if you were to proceed with finishing residency. Also, like people said, you can go into pharma or consulting. Your options also include whatever it was you majored in, in college (?economics, ?journalism, ?computer science, ?chemical/mechanical engineering). There is no reason to be miserable in medicine if you've discovered this is not what you enjoy doing with your life.

In regards to how quitting intern year would be seen by future employers in a different field, however, I cannot comment on. I am not familiar enough with industry to know. I suppose it would be similar to situations where people resigned from their jobs in any context. It would also probably depend on what kind of career you end up pursuing. More people-oriented fields might question your commitment and what your reasons where for quitting medicine, and whether you would be cut out for their field. Less people oriented careers (like software engineering or bench lab work) might care less. You could always choose to be your own boss, in which case it wouldn't even matter anyway.
 
I think that the op should complete his/her internship. He/she can then take some time off to consider their options. I am of the opinion that the field of medicine is like a buffet. There is something for everyone. I was completely miserable in another specialty. It took me years to finally get to practice in a specialty that I enjoyed. It is harder than you think to apply your medical school training to other disciplines if you are early in your medical career.

Please complete your internship. You will have a lot more options.

You could go to grad school in another disipline. You can defer you med school debt but eventually you will have to pay all of the money and then some back.

Make contacts in other disiplines. See what securing employment would entail.

Internship can really suck but things will get better.

I said this before but I will say it again. You should explore other specialties in medicine. I hated what I was doing until I switched specialties.

People will sometimes give you advice that they themselves would not take.
I have seen physicians apply their medical training to engineering and informatics. They were usually seasoned clinicians.

I hope that you find your way.


Cambie
 
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