how to tell the difference bt sys and dia murmur?

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hippocampus

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how can u tell the difference between a systolic murmur and a diastolic murmur?
how do you know when the murmurs come after the s1 or s2?

(i dont get it)
can someone briefly explain the basics to listening to heart murmurs?
how do you approach it?
i know the text book definitions of the murmurs. i know where they should be located. however, i cannot listen and diagnose the murmur. im not an auditory person

can someone provide me with some sort of direction?
thanks
 
This is a website with excellent recordings of murmurs http://www.med.ucla.edu/wilkes/inex.htm. Also if the sound is never making it to your ears, how can you diagnose it? If your using a scope with a tuneable diaphragm, I would recommend trying a scope with a seperate bell and diaphragm. Recently my scope (Littmann III) was stolen so I borrowed my friends drg puretone cardiology, the difference was amazing I was able to hear extremely soft and subtle sounds that I never heard with a Littmann.
 
Technique is everything. The best stethoscope is between your ears, and is called your brain. Using internet databases of heart sounds is a good way to get a general idea of what the murmur should sound like.

e.g lub shhhhh dub. or lushhhh dub or lub dush or lub dubsh

Sit the patient appropriately for cardiovascular examination. Usually 45 deg is good enough. Make sure you find where that apex beat is located, and then ausculate all the areas Mitral (apex), Tricuspid, Pulmonary and Aortic. Then roll the patient into the left lateral position and auscultate in the mitral region (some say use the bell to pick up mitral stenosis, but i've heard it easily with the diaphragm too so your choice really). Roll the patient back on their back and sit them well forward. Auscultate for aortic regurgitation in the aortic area.

If you hear murmurs - you should always do two things. 1) check for radiation 2) accentuating manoeuvres

When you're starting out you should probably go through the accentuating maneouvres anyway, because some murmurs will only become audible when using such tricks. Its probably enough to use the inspiration/expiration manoeuvre, and if you hear anything else, then try some of the other ones.

Always check to see if murmurs radiate to the carotids, to the L axilla, to the back, to the liver, or to the femoral a.

i've often heard loud aortic stenosis radiating into the abdomen. perhaps i just have sensitive ears!

As for timing a murmur. Put your finger on the pulse (carotid, brachial, radial etc.). As a general rule, the felt beat of the pulse coincides with systole.

i.e. it will occur between S1 and S2
for this reason, systolic murmurs or sounds will always be 'in-time' with the felt pulse, and diastolic murmurs or sounds will always be 'off-beat'. Having a musical ear probably helps for this.

It's probably a fair comment that distinguishing murmurs from their sounds is unreliable, especially at fast heart rates (ie children). However, with a lot of experience, it does come much easier.

practise practise practise. once youve heard lots of murmurs youll become confident. however beware. after getting more comfortable with murmurs - i think you go through a phase where you think EVERYONE has a murmur. this is simply not true. so dont be overconfident either.
 
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To differentiate btw systolic and diastolic simply time it with the carotid upstroke (assuming that the pt is not tachy and that there is not critical AS confounding this - but even if there was a severely delayed upstroke, you should be able to infer where it falls in the cardiac cycle as AS so severe that it delays the carotid upstroke until the closure of the AV would be pretty uncommon).
 
Also, in general, if you are not using proper physical exam technique, and not using a stethoscope that has a traditional bell rather than that new fandangled tunable diaphragm, you are hearing a systolic murmur.

Diastolic murmurs are quieter and lower in frequency. They take a bit more skill, and a good bell, to detect.