How well do doctors get compensated

[gujuDoc]

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okay the argument that says money should not be the sole motivation for going into medicine is okay. What make me want to puke is the "there are easier ways to make 100k+" argument. Do you guys know how long it will take you in most professions to brake the 100k barrier? something like 15yrs on average and that is if you ever do. I also wonder how many people who claim they are not going into medicine for the money would still do it if they knew they were going to make 50K at the end. My brother is one of the most dedicated doctors I have ever seen and I can tell you his biggest motivation is money and I respect him for being honest with me. That might not be the best motivation but it is better than having no motivation. Medical education is way too tough, and if you think the whole "I am doing it because I want to help people" is going to be enough motivation to get you through the hard times then goodluck.

Agreed. good post.

 

[Instatewaiter]

You can't make the comparison of 80K lbs per year to 150K dollars. You have to look at it in real terms. A coke in the US costs a dollar and a coke in the UK costs a pound. So making 80K lbs in the UK is like making 80K dollars in the US.

Otherwise, you are right. Most countries with socialized healthcare still pay damn well. There is less gap between specialists and generalists, as you said. Maybe that is a good thing, considering how crappy preventive care is in the US.

Ummm... coke is made in the US so is costs a lot more b/c they have to import it. Like in Italy you will consistently find a can of coke for 2-3 Euro. This is not a good way to gauge real income.

 

[Instatewaiter]

I'm laughing my rear off at the 1k/month comment. That sounds like a statement some highschool kid would make having not ever had to pay his own bills before.

You guys need to stop ragging on this kid. I am easily living on just over a grand a month. Honestly in some areas not that hard. For example I live in Virginia and rent here is pretty cheap. I live in a huge apartment with 1 roomate. Granted in some areas like NYC you couldnt even find a closet for the price of my entire budget for the month but a grand is doable in some areas.

Now if I had the money or didn't have to pay crap-loads of interest on the money I would be living on much, much more.

 

[siinew]

Give the dude a break. I'm definitely planning on hiring him to work for me when I open a practice. Heck, in a good year, I may even pay him double.

LMAO

 

[average]

http://www.cejkasearch.com/compensation/amga_physician_compensation_survey.htm

 

[dannylee718]

yeah... doctors make a trillion dollars a year.
but we pay 1.4 trillion in insurance costs.

 

[etf]

whatever - my theory is, if you can't beat em, join em. insurance companies taking all your money? they have to pay that money to someone - i.e. shareholders. it's easy to become one of these shareholders - log on to fidelity, and place an order for x shares of unh or hca.

 

[riceman04]

Search for a salary survey. Compensation changes over time, there is huge variability by region and practice arrangement, academics vs. private practice, so caveat emptor. That being said, average earnings in primary care are about $150K per year. Surgical subspecialties, procedural medicine subspecialties are more like $300K per year. So, there is definitely a pay-off at the end of the long-road through med school and residency.

dawg...all of that is before malprac. insurance costs and is pre-tax...and depending where you are...that alone can take a big chunk out of your salary

 

[somemaybedoc]

dawg...all of that is before malprac. insurance costs and is pre-tax...and depending where you are...that alone can take a big chunk out of your salary

Those numbers may be inflated, sources vary, but all earnings that are quoted in income surveys are pre tax, but post expenses (including malpractice). What you are thinking of is revenue.

 

[riceman04]

(unless your a spine surgeon) 😉

(make up to $1,352,000 a year)

you just might be able to buy a ferrari ha

One slip and that's your career

 

[CTSballer11]

whatever - my theory is, if you can't beat em, join em. insurance companies taking all your money? they have to pay that money to someone - i.e. shareholders. it's easy to become one of these shareholders - log on to fidelity, and place an order for x shares of unh or hca.

Sometime ago HCA tanked and people were losing tons of money. Bill Frist sold his shares for 20 mill a few months before HCA took a big hit. Not everyone has a billionaire brother who owns said company that provides inside information. Easier said then done.

 

[riceman04]

It appears I need to speak with my wife's emloyer (a rather large regional medical center)...She's been averaging about 60 hours a week...and i don't think she'll make that this year.

Traveling nurses make bank: 6 figures easy

 

[CTSballer11]

One slip and that's your career

That is precisely why surgeons have malpractice insurance. Most doctors can expect to face a lawsuit during their career and regardless of the outcome will continue to practice. Now if you have alcohol or drugs in your bloodstream then you may be in deep ****. Still, I remember someone posting an article on SDN about physicians who have made terrible mistakes and are still practicing.

 

[deleted36260]

okay the argument that says money should not be the sole motivation for going into medicine is okay. What make me want to puke is the "there are easier ways to make 100k+" argument. Do you guys know how long it will take you in most professions to brake the 100k barrier? something like 15yrs on average and that is if you ever do. I also wonder how many people who claim they are not going into medicine for the money would still do it if they knew they were going to make 50K at the end. My brother is one of the most dedicated doctors I have ever seen and I can tell you his biggest motivation is money and I respect him for being honest with me. That might not be the best motivation but it is better than having no motivation. Medical education is way too tough, and if you think the whole "I am doing it because I want to help people" is going to be enough motivation to get you through the hard times then goodluck.

WHile I agree with your intention, I don't agree with the reality. I also disagree with your contention that if I say medicine isn't the best path for money, then I'm saying that my reason for going into medicine is totally altruistic.
Back to the money figures. I am 24 and made 75k at 22. Sure, I'm not typical (in the full job market, but I'm not that unusual in the IT world), but neither are people that get into, complete, and succeed at medschool/medicine.

I don't know ANYONE with the intelligence to get into an upper level professional school, dedicates a decade of their life at 50-100 hours a week and doesn't make 100k+.
Oh, and they don't get sued left and right or have to pay back a 250,000 loan.

Quit just looking at time. The amount of work put in to bill out what doctor's bill is FAR more than that of professions billing the same.

I'm in IT. I bill 75-125 an hour when I was self employed (now a company bills that on my behalf and cuts me in). So does my brother - he's a plumber. This isn't an e-penis ++++ post, especially since I don't make as much since returning to school, but there's more money being made in more professions than you are letting on.

 

[zbruinz]

so would you say the IT profession is stable? I've always thought of it as risky business.

 

[deleted36260]

so would you say the IT profession is stable? I've always thought of it as risky business.

A slightlt harsh explanation, but still pretty much true:
The IT profession is stable if you aren't an idiot. The bubble burst because it was an immature field full of every ***** that could get a certification. Now, with degree programs maturing, the industry maturing, and more qualified people vying for positions, things are becoming far more settled. It's no longer "OMG, higher 100 tech guys because computers are new and we need to do it."
Even after the bubble burst, 9/11 happened, and worldcom/enron,etc all shat on the market at once, me and every close IT friend had no problem scoring jobs or starting businesses. When I wanted to go back to school, finding a job was not an issue and I still turn down job offers regularly. The market is there. The only people that grumble that it's gone are those that hopped on the bandwagon and weren't fully trained in the first place. The free ride is over, but the industry is still growing. I can offer a case after case, but it's all just anecdotal evidence. I just really thing people underestimate how much people are getting paid.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

Asking the premed forum probably won't answer this question.

 

[PEN15]

Asking the premed forum probably won't answer this question.

👍

I think we should be worrying about other things before we start worrying about how much we're going to be making 7+ (4 years of med + 3+ years of residency) years down the road. For example, let's get into med school first and then graduate

 

[Law2Doc]

http://www.cejkasearch.com/compensation/amga_physician_compensation_survey.htm

LOL - If you read the fine print, you see that this is not a survey of typical physicians, based on the footnote that indicates that "The average AMGA member group has 272 physicians and 13 satellite locations." So it is a survey of salaries of select individuals in big practice groups, not average physicians. Also telling is the footnote that indicates that survey respondents provide services to patients in "40 states", meaning they may not be comparable even to large groups in certain regions.
So this is one of the least all encompassing surveys out there -- it says if you work for a huge practice group in certain states, you on average will do well. Most people don't meet both those requirements.

 

[riceman04]

That is precisely why surgeons have malpractice insurance. Most doctors can expect to face a lawsuit during their career and regardless of the outcome will continue to practice. Now if you have alcohol or drugs in your bloodstream then you may be in deep ****. Still, I remember someone posting an article on SDN about physicians who have made terrible mistakes and are still practicing.

No...you are right...I just said that b/c the person seemed like they would believe anything.

In this med sociology class I took we talked about how docs make mistakes all the time and are not reprimanded by his/her peers. There is this code of respect in the hospital that is bizarre.

 

[Law2Doc]

That is precisely why surgeons have malpractice insurance. Most doctors can expect to face a lawsuit during their career and regardless of the outcome will continue to practice. Now if you have alcohol or drugs in your bloodstream then you may be in deep ****. Still, I remember someone posting an article on SDN about physicians who have made terrible mistakes and are still practicing.

Nobody is perfect and all doctors will get sued at least once in their careers. Simple negligence (nicking something inadvertently during surgery, losing a sponge in a patient, etc) won't cost you your license, just money (hopefully just insurance money). Something grossly negligent or reckless might cost you a license (i.e. amputating the wrong limb, operating on the wrong patient, or leaving during mid-surgery to do your banking--this last one is an actual recent case). Crazy things will (i.e. the doctor who used to sign his surgeries with a zorro-like Z scar, a few years back). And if you have enough negligence issues piled up, you can likely become uninsurable and have to stop practicing, even if they don't yank your license.

 

[Law2Doc]

In this med sociology class I took we talked about how docs make mistakes all the time and are not reprimanded by his/her peers. There is this code of respect in the hospital that is bizarre.

Maybe not reprimanded, but not necessarilly respected. All hospitals have regular M&M (mortality and morbidity) meetings where they go over mistakes in a room full of doctors and discuss where each doctor messed up, and what he really should have done. The goal is to learn from your mistakes.

 

[Ross434]

You guys need to stop ragging on this kid. I am easily living on just over a grand a month. Honestly in some areas not that hard. For example I live in Virginia and rent here is pretty cheap. I live in a huge apartment with 1 roomate. Granted in some areas like NYC you couldnt even find a closet for the price of my entire budget for the month but a grand is doable in some areas.

Now if I had the money or didn't have to pay crap-loads of interest on the money I would be living on much, much more.

Yeah, making $1000/month all told (ie: after taxes) - although it's not really living the "high life", it's definitely do-able. You can find a large 2 bedroom apartment to share in a nice mid sized city for a rent of $700. That's only $425 for rent and utilities. $50/month for health insurance, $150/month car payment, and you still have almost $100/week in spending money for food gas and recreation. Hell yeah for living cheap

 

[CTSballer11]

Yeah, making $1000/month all told (ie: after taxes) - although it's not really living the "high life", it's definitely do-able. You can find a large 2 bedroom apartment to share in a nice mid sized city for a rent of $700. That's only $425 for rent and utilities. $50/month for health insurance, $150/month car payment, and you still have almost $100/week in spending money for food gas and recreation. Hell yeah for living cheap

You may be able to live like that now but I doubt you plan on living like that once you become a physician.

 

[dutchman]

A slightlt harsh explanation, but still pretty much true:
The IT profession is stable if you aren't an idiot. The bubble burst because it was an immature field full of every ***** that could get a certification. Now, with degree programs maturing, the industry maturing, and more qualified people vying for positions, things are becoming far more settled. It's no longer "OMG, higher 100 tech guys because computers are new and we need to do it."
Even after the bubble burst, 9/11 happened, and worldcom/enron,etc all shat on the market at once, me and every close IT friend had no problem scoring jobs or starting businesses. When I wanted to go back to school, finding a job was not an issue and I still turn down job offers regularly. The market is there. The only people that grumble that it's gone are those that hopped on the bandwagon and weren't fully trained in the first place. The free ride is over, but the industry is still growing. I can offer a case after case, but it's all just anecdotal evidence. I just really thing people underestimate how much people are getting paid.

Remember that there is no control over the number of IT professionals getting trained. Every Tom Dick and Harry calls themselves an IT professional with or without a college degree. When you look at the massive college enrollment in computer science and other IT related fields you will see that IT is in great danger of oversupply of manpower.

 

[Law2Doc]

Yeah, making $1000/month all told (ie: after taxes) - although it's not really living the "high life", it's definitely do-able. You can find a large 2 bedroom apartment to share in a nice mid sized city for a rent of $700. That's only $425 for rent and utilities. $50/month for health insurance, $150/month car payment, and you still have almost $100/week in spending money for food gas and recreation. Hell yeah for living cheap

Maybe in Madison you could do this, but on the coasts, even splitting rent plus utilities is going to be most of your $1000 (unless you are putting 4 people into a 2 bedroom place and foregoing things like telephone, internet access, etc. And parking costs can eat up much of that supposedly remaining $100 you allocated for food, gas and recreation. You'd better like Ramen and PB&J because that is all you will ever eat, tap water because that is all you are going to be able to drink, and better find a cool place to hang out during the summer because AC costs more than you budgeted for.🙄

 

[8744]

Maybe in Madison you could do this, but on the coasts, even splitting rent plus utilities is going to be most of your $1000 (unless you are putting 4 people into a 2 bedroom place and foregoing things like telephone, internet access, etc. And parking costs can eat up much of that supposedly remaining $100 you allocated for food, gas and recreation. You'd better like Ramen and PB&J because that is all you will ever eat, tap water because that is all you are going to be able to drink, and better find a cool place to hang out during the summer because AC costs more than you budgeted for.🙄

Do I like Ramen? Dude. When I was a college student I lived on Ramen. I still love Ramen. I don't eat them anymore because one packet has 500 calories and your Uncle Panda is trying to maintain his svelte, girlish figure.

Ramen. Better than steak. That would be the life!

 

[Law2Doc]

Do I like Ramen? Dude. When I was a college student I lived on Ramen. I still love Ramen. I don't eat them anymore because one packet has 500 calories and your Uncle Panda is trying to maintain his svelte, girlish figure.

Ramen. Better than steak. That would be the life!

I think everyone on a tight budget in college has done the Ramen thing. But most of us are happier with the post-college foods that you don't have to add water to.🙂

 

[DoctorPardi]

I think everyone on a tight budget in college has done the Ramen thing. But most of us are happier with the post-college foods that you don't have to add water to.🙂

If you don't have to add boiling tap water to it to eat, is it really food?

 

[kidthor]

Maybe we can all sustain ourselves on the poop hotdogs that some of us have agreed to eat for admission?

 

[braluk]

Ramen? Hah! I eat little ****s like you for breakfast. Ahh, I love movies.

 

[seadizzle]

okay the argument that says money should not be the sole motivation for going into medicine is okay. What make me want to puke is the "there are easier ways to make 100k+" argument. Do you guys know how long it will take you in most professions to brake the 100k barrier? something like 15yrs on average and that is if you ever do. I also wonder how many people who claim they are not going into medicine for the money would still do it if they knew they were going to make 50K at the end. My brother is one of the most dedicated doctors I have ever seen and I can tell you his biggest motivation is money and I respect him for being honest with me. That might not be the best motivation but it is better than having no motivation. Medical education is way too tough, and if you think the whole "I am doing it because I want to help people" is going to be enough motivation to get you through the hard times then goodluck.

100% disagree - if you have done well enough to get into med school there are a LOT of other options open to you

my roommate and i both were looking at medical school, did the prereq, mcat, studentdoctor.net thing.

we both interviewed in the ibanking + trading world - both of us got job offers for significantly more than 100k starting total compenstation...now only one of us is going to medical school, and it definitely isn't for the money.

compare 4 years of medical school + 4 years of residency with 100k+ of debt
to 8 years where you'll earn way more than a million in salary total(before taxes)

there *are* easier ways to make money without a doubt

if you are going into medicine for the money then look around at some other options...

 

[JRockdown]

100% disagree - if you have done well enough to get into med school there are a LOT of other options open to you

my roommate and i both were looking at medical school, did the prereq, mcat, studentdoctor.net thing.

we both interviewed in the ibanking + trading world - both of us got job offers for significantly more than 100k starting total compenstation...now only one of us is going to medical school, and it definitely isn't for the money.

compare 4 years of medical school + 4 years of residency with 100k+ of debt
to 8 years where you'll earn way more than a million in salary total(before taxes)

there *are* easier ways to make money without a doubt

if you are going into medicine for the money then look around at some other options...

Sitting in a similar boat as seadizzle, which is why I made a little something for all you to see what you are getting yourselves into. Just an excel spreadsheet. Enter your info and it will tell you the financial gain or loss of going to medical school. It factors in cost of medical school, years of residency, salary growth, maximum potential, also does a simple retirement calculation for both situations. Check it out if you like.

I am thinking I will still go for nonfinancial reasons 🙂

 

[MossPoh]

Doctors are regularly not reimbursed via insurance or medicare/medicaid for the cost billed. An amount is "negotiated" , or in the medicare case costs are predetermined by the government.

There are no poor doctors, but there also are not many OMG NIP/TUCK DRIVING A FERRARI doctors.

I'm from the lucrative world of IT. I have had more doctors tell me to stay out of medicine than go in it because of the reason we are talking about.

Yea I'm from IT as well..........I've had so many docs tell me I should just stick with that stuff. I think the problem is that they have witnessed the decline first hand, while I have never really seen the hay day of medicine and have no context to put the current situation into. Certain areas of medicine are a little more prone to financial pains the asses....ex. Emergency Medicine where some ridiculous percentage of patients never actually pays their bills.

 

[Twitch]

Sitting in a similar boat as seadizzle, which is why I made a little something for all you to see what you are getting yourselves into. Just an excel spreadsheet. Enter your info and it will tell you the financial gain or loss of going to medical school. It factors in cost of medical school, years of residency, salary growth, maximum potential, also does a simple retirement calculation for both situations. Check it out if you like.

I am thinking I will still go for nonfinancial reasons 🙂

Very nice. I appreciate the NPV calc. 👍

 

[smugtroll]

i always enjoy reading these "doctor pay" threads; the debates are always the same and the lingering tension beneath remains the same "is-all-the-hard work-and-stress-of-the-MD-going-to-make-me-rich?"

my background was in i-banking where kids were pulling $700k a year pre-tax with fat $10k pr/mth pads on the upper east side by 30; i used to admire those tools until i started putting in 90hr week myself; i too was on call 24/7 because Friday nights and weekends are the fav. times for corporate execs. to crunch numbers for M&A; these guys at LB,GS, & MS used to laugh at docs only making $250 a year.

here's a little fact that always pisses off docs when they talk about pay; My friend is a nurse and pulls $220,000 a year (check out CRNA)

 

[smugtroll]

I'm just going to have to call BS these posters that are having a tough time deciding between "investment banking and/or equity/bond trading $100,000+ job offer" or being a doctor to help people.

ps-spare me the altruistic speech/ followup that is sure to come.

 

[Cirrus83]

How come they don't pay what the doctor asks you cant negotiate a price with a mechanic or McDonalds for that matter. I am not in it for the money, I want to help people but we are making so many hard sacrifices to be a doctor to have someone say you are not worth that this is what we will give you

Actually, insurance companies *do* have a negotiated rate on repairs. That's why they send a guy out to do an estimate on the repair. Then if the shop won't do it for that price, they don't get to do it. Of course it's usually plenty generous so it's not a big deal.

Anyways, in response to the OP, I think your friend meant that they'll sometimes pay you half of what you tried to bill them. I highly doubt that they'd actually be paying half of what it costs to perform a surgery though.

 

[seadizzle]

...I'm sorry lad but I'm just going to have to call BS on your "investment banking and/or equity/bond trading $100,000+ job offer" interview;

ps-spare me the altruistic speech/ followup that is sure to come.

it's 100k+ total comp first year

real numbers: 60k base, 10k signing, 60k end of year bonus

if you don't believe it, you obviously don't know anyone going into ibanking

keep in mind they own your soul for two or three years, looking at working 80-110 hour weeks

 

[Cirrus83]

it's 100k+ total comp first year

real numbers: 60k base, 10k signing, 60k end of year bonus

if you don't believe it, you obviously don't know anyone going into ibanking

keep in mind they own your soul for two or three years, looking at working 80-110 hour weeks

Bonuses are actually higher this year since it's been such a great year on wall street...your year end bonus is tied into how much money they've made this year (and actually, even how much your department made).

So depending on what kind of entry level analyst you are you could be pulling down even more than that.

The average first year bonus is going to be more like 80K this year.

And if you made it to associate...the bonus is going to be 200-300K this year!!!

 

[MossPoh]

A slightlt harsh explanation, but still pretty much true:
The IT profession is stable if you aren't an idiot. The bubble burst because it was an immature field full of every ***** that could get a certification. Now, with degree programs maturing, the industry maturing, and more qualified people vying for positions, things are becoming far more settled. It's no longer "OMG, higher 100 tech guys because computers are new and we need to do it."
Even after the bubble burst, 9/11 happened, and worldcom/enron,etc all shat on the market at once, me and every close IT friend had no problem scoring jobs or starting businesses. When I wanted to go back to school, finding a job was not an issue and I still turn down job offers regularly. The market is there. The only people that grumble that it's gone are those that hopped on the bandwagon and weren't fully trained in the first place. The free ride is over, but the industry is still growing. I can offer a case after case, but it's all just anecdotal evidence. I just really thing people underestimate how much people are getting paid.

I agree with this completley. You just can't be an idiot. Also, it depends on the job you are searching for. The days of coding in the states are kind of fading away, for now at least. Something like that is generally easy to ship over to india, russia and wherever else. Managing projects, creativity, customer centric goals, database skills all of the other stuff is going fine. I hear lots of people whining about how they lost their job to some guy in india, but the fact is they lost their job because their skills weren't marketable and they didn't adapt. IBM has had over 50% of its employees overseas for a long long time. The average graduating senior from my major gets I think 3 job offers before starting his last semester, and an average starting income of 59 or 60k. I have a lot of friends in my major who are also pmp certified which after a few years is a huge boost, and then are going into the professional development programs at their jobs. In the end they'll be making about 110k or so when I'm getting into my residency period.........the key is you gotta deal with so much crap that just annoys me and the job itself isn't that fun....or fun enough to warrant a love time of doing it at least.

 

[MossPoh]

Bonuses are actually higher this year since it's been such a great year on wall street...your year end bonus is tied into how much money they've made this year (and actually, even how much your department made).

So depending on what kind of entry level analyst you are you could be pulling down even more than that.

The average first year bonus is going to be more like 80K this year.

And if you made it to associate...the bonus is going to be 200-300K this year!!!

Its a "bonus" for a reason though...you are never guarenteed it.lol That is how CEOs and all the other guys who are wise make the most money. They work their ass off for a bonus and keep their salary fairly low.

 

[Law2Doc]

Its a "bonus" for a reason though...you are never guarenteed it.lol That is how CEOs and all the other guys who are wise make the most money. They work their ass off for a bonus and keep their salary fairly low.

In finance the ceiling of reward is tied to level of risk. Hence people get paid largely in unguaranteed bonuses and are comfortable with that. Classmates of mine who went to Wall St got pretty nice salaries for folks right out of undergrad ($60k-$80k), but the real cheesecake was in the bonuses, where some of them got double to triple their salary at year end, an absurdly nice earning for someone in their early 20s. In a bad year they could get nothing, but it has been many years since anyone got nothing. Medicine has less risk, but a much lower ceiling, and pretty negligible bonus income. So if you are seeking limitless income, or owning a penthouse, a Ferrarri, etc. doctor is not the path you take - even ignoring the fact that you will have huge debt and a long low-pay training period, to boot. And if you are not a risk taker than finance/banking is not a path you take.

 

[MossPoh]

In finance the ceiling of reward is tied to level of risk. Hence people get paid largely in unguaranteed bonuses and are comfortable with that. Classmates of mine who went to Wall St got pretty nice salaries for folks right out of undergrad ($60k-$80k), but the real cheesecake was in the bonuses, where some of them got double to triple their salary at year end, an absurdly nice earning for someone in their early 20s. In a bad year they could get nothing, but it has been many years since anyone got nothing. Medicine has less risk, but a much lower ceiling, and pretty negligible bonus income. So if you are seeking limitless income, or owning a penthouse, a Ferrarri, etc. doctor is not the path you take - even ignoring the fact that you will have huge debt and a long low-pay training period, to boot. And if you are not a risk taker than finance/banking is not a path you take.

Yup...people don't seem to realize the being tied to risk thing, or the fact that they do lots of risk anaylisis to figure out what's the best choice. (At least the wise companies do that)

 

[CTSballer11]

Yea I'm from IT as well..........I've had so many docs tell me I should just stick with that stuff. I think the problem is that they have witnessed the decline first hand, while I have never really seen the hay day of medicine and have no context to put the current situation into. Certain areas of medicine are a little more prone to financial pains the asses....ex. Emergency Medicine where some ridiculous percentage of patients never actually pays their bills.

Most if not all EM docs are salaried and thus it does not matter to them whether someone can pay or not.

 

[Law2Doc]

Most if not all EM docs are salaried and thus it does not matter to them whether someone can pay or not.

At some level salaries have to be tied to collections. So while you are right that a non-paying patient or two does not cost the doctor anything, ultimately the hours a doctor is asked to work and the salary the group can afford to pay their doctor employees are tied to the historical collection percentages.

 

[CTSballer11]

At some level salaries have to be tied to collections. So while you are right that a non-paying patient or two does not cost the doctor anything, ultimately the hours a doctor is asked to work and the salary the group can afford to pay their doctor employees are tied to the historical collection percentages.

I thought that this was the case for internists, surgeons, etc. I thought EM docs were salaried professionals covered by the hospital and were not under pressure to collect payments from ER patients. I doubt many people who go to the ER end up paying much; this would explain why the ER is considered a liability for the hospital. If docs are having trouble getting reimbursed 100% for performing a procedure from a patient that has insurance I do not see how they will get a patient who most likely does not have insurance to pay up.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

At some level salaries have to be tied to collections. So while you are right that a non-paying patient or two does not cost the doctor anything, ultimately the hours a doctor is asked to work and the salary the group can afford to pay their doctor employees are tied to the historical collection percentages.

I'm pretty sure most ER's run so far in the red that the vast majority of funding is from local and state government (paid for by taxes). And at most ER's its not one or two patients that don't pay, its the majority. If ER's had to make money to keep themselves going, none would exist.

 

[Law2Doc]

I'm pretty sure most ER's run so far in the red that the vast majority of funding is from local and state government (paid for by taxes). And at most ER's its not one or two patients that don't pay, its the majority. If ER's had to make money to keep themselves going, none would exist.

A good chunk of ERs are privatized and run out of private groups these days, not the hospitals they service. And they do make good money as groups. No clue as to how the billings work and who pays who. But presumably privitization exist because it is a more profitable structure then just staying part of the hospital. And so clearly the groups mete out salaries based on money coming in. Whether the hospital or the groups eat the bad debt, I don't know.

 

[CTSballer11]

A good chunk of ERs are privatized and run out of private groups these days, not the hospitals they service. And they do make good money as groups. No clue as to how the billings work and who pays who. But presumably privitization exist because it is a more profitable structure then just staying part of the hospital. And so clearly the groups mete out salaries based on money coming in. Whether the hospital or the groups eat the bad debt, I don't know.

I do not think the groups have the capability to take care of the debt. It has to be covered by either the state or other departments in the hospital that make bank.