How Widespread Is Cheating in Med School?

[BrCo]

Thoughts? Experiences?

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[OneTwoThreeFour]

Thoughts? Experiences?

With no experience yet, I would assume that (especially in P/F schools), cheating is minimal. It seems hard to get to this point in life and still be ok with cheating rather than working.

 

[BrCo]

I'm hoping this kind of problem is restricted to this one school, but what's to say most med school aren't like this?

 

[Screwtape]

I'm asking because I've had the recent experience of watching almost an entire class of dental students cheat on boards. When I questioned some of them about it they replied that that is how they make it through. I'm hoping this kind of problem is restricted to this one school, but what's to say most med school aren't like this?

An entire dental class cheated on boards? How the heck did they pull that off?

 

[Goro]

In over 15 years of experience, I have seen maybe three instances. We've had students disciplined, but never had a student expelled.

Thoughts? Experiences?

 

[BrCo]

TQs. They would write questions down right after the test, start a google doc, and share. NBDE has repeats so people taking it later on would have roughly half of the same questions as the TQs.

An entire dental class cheated on boards? How the heck did they pull that off?

 

[correctlywrong]

TQs. They would write questions down right after the test, start a google doc, and share. NBDE has repeats so people taking it later on would have roughly half of the same questions as the TQs.

That is unfortunately a far more common practice than it ought to be, and not just for USMLE Steps. I have seen that kind of behavior endorsed by residents and even attendings. In some very competitive environments, some people begin to act as though the agreement they signed to keep test material confidential is more like a suggestion...

I was appalled when I found myself the apparent beneficiary of such a practice at my hospital. Basically everyone who works in nursing at my hospital is eligible for a specialty certification exam after a couple years of working in the field. There is a hospital sponsored prep course, which we are strongly encouraged to take. The hospital likes to be able to advertise how many of its nurses have specialty certification. I took the course, and was really disappointed. It seemed like the information was presented in a very disjointed fashion, and that it focused too much on some very specific details of some diseases, while barely touching on the highlights of others. A week later, when I took the exam, I realized why the course had been that way. For virtually every question, I could recall having been coached, sometimes to such a degree that the wording of the question matched up with the way the presenter at the prep course had explained the topic.

I didn't have evidence, so I didn't report it. But when it came time to renew the certification the next year, I didn't. I just let it lapse. When our nurse educator asked why, I explained my concerns, and she, of course, denied that there was anything inappropriate going on.

I've since learned that for specialties that have begun to require recertification every 10 years for attendings, that similar "study groups" are available, and well utilized.

Cheating happens. All you can do is hold yourself to a higher standard, rather than joining the crowd by saying that well, everyone else is doing it so...

 

[NickNaylor]

I don't know of anyone that has cheated in my class. I also don't know how you would cheat on any of the licensing exams. There have been some controversies with respect to "cheating rings" and multiple choice board exams, but many specialties have oral components to their exams, which are much more difficult to cheat your way through. I doubt it's all that prevalent.

With respect to the above anecdote, yeah, that's not cheating. That's called "high yield." You'll come to know the term when you start studying for step 1. Using UWorld - which will almost certainly give you a few questions that will be very similar to those you see on your actual exam - is not cheating. Nor is using a review book or books that cover the most important information that is most commonly tested on the exams.


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[correctlywrong]

There is high yield and there is straight pimping people to report back on specific questions that they were asked in order to build a database of same.

One is akin to taking AAMC practice tests, the other is called cheating.

 

[NickNaylor]

There is high yield and there is straight pimping people to report back on specific questions that they were asked in order to build a database of same.

One is akin to taking AAMC practice tests, the other is called cheating.

I suppose using First Aid (which is developed in exactly the same way) is akin to cheating then.


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[V5RED]

There is high yield and there is straight pimping people to report back on specific questions that they were asked in order to build a database of same.

One is akin to taking AAMC practice tests, the other is called cheating.

I'm pretty sure that having people report specific questions is how MCAT prep companies build their question banks. My MCAT had a lot of very similar questions to things in the materials I used. (I think that is vague enough to not violate the rules)

 

[correctlywrong]

I suppose using First Aid (which is developed in exactly the same way) is akin to cheating then.
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Certainly would seem that way, wouldn't it?

Look, I get it. Academic integrity doesn't count for much these days. But when I read and accepted the agreements associated with the MCAT, I noticed that they specifically prohibit discussing the content of the test with other people. They make it pretty explicit that attempting to recall questions and report them to other people is not permitted. When I agreed to that, I meant it. That so many other people don't take their agreements as seriously does not make it acceptable.

Not everyone is comfortable trading their integrity away for a small advantage. If that is how you live, though, I guess that might be hard to imagine.

 

[Serous Demilune]

With no experience yet, I would assume that (especially in P/F schools), cheating is minimal. It seems hard to get to this point in life and still be ok with cheating rather than working.

Lol you'd be wrong. We've gotten a "please stop cheating or we'll tell the dean you guyz" email from the Honor Committe or a professor in 3/6 of our 1st yr classes. Pretty much every take home quiz or assignment you can expect at least half the class to cheat.

 

[NickNaylor]

Certainly would seem that way, wouldn't it?

Look, I get it. Academic integrity doesn't count for much these days. But when I read and accepted the agreements associated with the MCAT, I noticed that they specifically prohibit discussing the content of the test with other people. They make it pretty explicit that attempting to recall questions and report them to other people is not permitted. When I agreed to that, I meant it. That so many other people don't take their agreements as seriously does not make it acceptable.

Not everyone is comfortable trading their integrity away for a small advantage. If that is how you live, though, I guess that might be hard to imagine.

I personally do not disclose details related to these tests, but nice try at the ad hominem and the thinly veiled self-righteousness. That doesn't mean, though, that I'm simply going to not use a review text, and I certainly don't think using one is equatable to cheating.


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[Lambda Phage]

Lol you'd be wrong. We've gotten a "please stop cheating or we'll tell the dean you guyz" email from the Honor Committe or a professor in 3/6 of our 1st yr classes. Pretty much every take home quiz or assignment you can expect at least half the class to cheat.

Take home home quiz? What do the professors think is going to happen?

 

[OneTwoThreeFour]

Take home home quiz? What do the professors think is going to happen?

Well, most schools have students sign an honor code.

 

[correctlywrong]

"I don't steal. I just save money by buying the things from people who do." Gotcha.

Calling an appraisal of your character an ad hominem doesn't invalidate it. And it isn't self-righteousness if one actually does practice what one preaches.

I am not stopping you or anyone else from doing anything with regard to your study habits. I'm just not going to join them in doing things that I think are wrong, no matter how popular they may be. And if I were going to use First Aid, I would at least have the moral courage to admit that I was profiting from someone else's decision to cheat.

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

You'll never know cus all the good ones wouldn't get caught anyway. Only the *******es get caught

 

[Serous Demilune]

Take home home quiz? What do the professors think is going to happen?

No idea but one of our teachers straight up cried on the last day of class bc she just realized we were cheating on take home quizzes worth 24% of our grade. Go figure.

 

[circulus vitios]

Certainly would seem that way, wouldn't it?

Look, I get it. Academic integrity doesn't count for much these days. But when I read and accepted the agreements associated with the MCAT, I noticed that they specifically prohibit discussing the content of the test with other people. They make it pretty explicit that attempting to recall questions and report them to other people is not permitted. When I agreed to that, I meant it. That so many other people don't take their agreements as seriously does not make it acceptable.

Not everyone is comfortable trading their integrity away for a small advantage. If that is how you live, though, I guess that might be hard to imagine.

You're going to make so many friends in medical school.

 

[Serous Demilune]

You're going to make so many friends in medical school.

He will though. For every cheater there is a pompous, self-righteous as*hole who takes it personally.

 

[correctlywrong]

No idea but one of our teachers straight up cried on the last day of class bc she just realized we were cheating on take home quizzes worth 24% of our grade. Go figure.

Wow.

I am taking a summer course. The first week, we were given a test to take home. The cover sheet was an honor code agreement, stating that we would each turn in only our own work, and would not consult the internet or any resources other than our text and notes. Pretty generous, I thought.

One of my two lab partners started dividing it up between us. "Oh good, six pages. Easy to split. Okay, you take the first two pages, I will do the next two, and she will do the last two." She didn't like the look on my face when I explained that I would just do mine on my own, thanks. I assume that she and the other girl split the test 50/50.

We haven't really spoken much the rest of the semester, except as absolutely necessary in lab. I am cool with that.

How do people sleep at night, knowing that they can't be trusted to any degree?

 

[mrh125]

The thing about cheating is most of the time it's "your word against theirs" so it almost never goes anywhere.

 

[Serous Demilune]

Wow.

I am taking a summer course. The first week, we were given a test to take home. The cover sheet was an honor code agreement, stating that we would each turn in only our own work, and would not consult the internet or any resources other than our text and notes. Pretty generous, I thought.

One of my two lab partners started dividing it up between us. "Oh good, six pages. Easy to split. Okay, you take the first two pages, I will do the next two, and she will do the last two." She didn't like the look on my face when I explained that I would just do mine on my own, thanks. I assume that she and the other girl split the test 50/50.

We haven't really spoken much the rest of the semester, except as absolutely necessary in lab. I am cool with that.

How do people sleep at night, knowing that they can't be trusted to any degree?

I can't really justify it, except to say that the 1st 2 yrs of med school are kind of a paradox. On the one hand you're excited to learn everything it takes to be a "real doctor." On the other hand, it's frustrating when school takes up all your free time and all you want to do is pass your classes and "study for the boards." It's this second school of thought that wins out when you're faced with the choice to cheat or not. Studying adequately for a quiz made up by some PhD is not appealing when you can just take it with a friend and use your extra time to go out or study BRS. You really have to experience it to understand, and to some people it will never be acceptable.

 

[correctlywrong]

He will though. For every cheater there is a pompous, self-righteous as*hole who takes it personally.

I didn't turn in my lab mates for asking me to cheat with them. I didn't even give them **** for it. I just refused to participate. That isn't self-righteous, just refusing to do something that I believe to be wrong, just because it would be easy to get away with.

I do help others study using legitimate resources. I just don't break my word when I give it, and I am proud of everything that I have been able to accomplish through hard work without shortcuts.

Seriously, would you want to be treated by a doctor who cheated their way through school? WTF? Why are people actually defending this kind of behavior? No wonder they practically make people go through strip searches to take standardized exams. People here are saying that being trusted and knowing that you will probably get away with it justifies violating that trust, such that the teacher was foolish for having faith in you in the first place.

 

[Serous Demilune]

I didn't turn in my lab mates for asking me to cheat with them. I didn't even give them **** for it. I just refused to participate. That isn't self-righteous, just refusing to do something that I believe to be wrong, just because it would be easy to get away with.

I do help others study using legitimate resources. I just don't break my word when I give it, and I am proud of everything that I have been able to accomplish through hard work without shortcuts.

Seriously, would you want to be treated by a doctor who cheated their way through school? WTF? Why are people actually defending this kind of behavior? No wonder they practically make people go through strip searches to take standardized exams. People here are saying that being trusted and knowing that you will probably get away with it justifies violating that trust, such that the teacher was foolish for having faith in you in the first place.

Sorry that was uncalled for.

 

[correctlywrong]

I can't really justify it... and to some people it will never be acceptable.

I don't think you are a bad person, or that you are saying that you personally cheated on the take home exam.

I just don't think that it is wrong to be someone who aspires to keeping his word and his integrity above reproach. I actually believe in the values that I talk about, so I am a little horrified that more people don't feel the same. Maybe I am just terribly naive, despite being old enough to be the parent of some of the people here.

 

[kk123]

What's the penalty for cheating during medical school anyway? I would assume it would be harsher than undergrad....

 

[Ace-Co-A]

The worst thing about cheating is that you won't learn the material you're supposed to. In a medical school environment in which learning the material is important and the student body is necessarily conscientious, it would surprise me a great deal if instances of cheating at any given medical school were more common than Goro reported for his institution.

 

[Tommyguns89]

Lol you'd be wrong. We've gotten a "please stop cheating or we'll tell the dean you guyz" email from the Honor Committe or a professor in 3/6 of our 1st yr classes. Pretty much every take home quiz or assignment you can expect at least half the class to cheat.

It's not surprising. Even in undergrad few professors/TAs care enough to go out of their way to report something. There is so much cheating in my lab classes and a lot of it is by the kids with high GPAs who are likely to get into med school.

 

[kk123]

It's not surprising. Even in undergrad few professors/TAs care enough to go out of their way to report something. There is so much cheating in my lab classes and a lot of it is by the kids with high GPAs who are likely to get into med school.

It was the same in my school. Profs and TAs would know about students cheating and those students would still get As. Some of the TAs would even help students cheat. The kids who were cheating and getting away with it were super cocky about it, bragging about how they were able to get As without doing any work. It really annoyed those of us who were actually working for our grades.

 

[Serous Demilune]

The worst thing about cheating is that you won't learn the material you're supposed to. In a medical school environment in which learning the material is important and the student body is necessarily conscientious, it would surprise me a great deal if instances of cheating at any given medical school were more common than Goro reported for his institution.

This is the last time I'll comment on this thread but here goes:
Every med student (I assume) worries almost constantly that they aren't learning enough. There is so much material, and it becomes impossible to memorize it all, I don't care how smart you are. Eventually this wears on you. You will go through periods of apathy about the material, which then compounds your guilt about not knowing it all for your patients. The only choice you have is to grit your teeth and get through it, hoping the material you do know is enough and Step 1 studying and 3rd and 4th year clerkships will somehow make up the deficits. Therefore, a cheating student will probably not take your reasoning into account. All students feel that they will screw their patients by not studying enough, whether they are honest or not.

 

[NickNaylor]

"I don't steal. I just save money by buying the things from people who do." Gotcha.

Calling an appraisal of your character an ad hominem doesn't invalidate it. And it isn't self-righteousness if one actually does practice what one preaches.

I am not stopping you or anyone else from doing anything with regard to your study habits. I'm just not going to join them in doing things that I think are wrong, no matter how popular they may be. And if I were going to use First Aid, I would at least have the moral courage to admit that I was profiting from someone else's decision to cheat.

Lol, whatever buddy. I look forward to hearing your study strategies in med school because you refuse to use study books due to some contrived understanding of "cheating." We'll see just how far that self-righteousness goes.


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[correctlywrong]

Lol, whatever buddy. I look forward to hearing your study strategies in med school because you refuse to use study books due to some contrived understanding of "cheating." We'll see just how far that self-righteousness goes.
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Not all study materials are compiled from broken promises and stolen content. In this thread and others, you keep expressing doubt that I will hold to my values in the face of temptation. Why is that so difficult for you to believe? Can you not credit that someone, somewhere might actually be sincere when they say that they care about their character?

 

[Mad Jack]

With all the long distance relationships, I'd imagine pretty common.

 

[ChEMD]

"I don't steal. I just save money by buying the things from people who do." Gotcha.

Calling an appraisal of your character an ad hominem doesn't invalidate it. And it isn't self-righteousness if one actually does practice what one preaches.

I am not stopping you or anyone else from doing anything with regard to your study habits. I'm just not going to join them in doing things that I think are wrong, no matter how popular they may be. And if I were going to use First Aid, I would at least have the moral courage to admit that I was profiting from someone else's decision to cheat.

Please explain to me how using FA is cheating.

 

[Planes2Doc]

Lol, whatever buddy. I look forward to hearing your study strategies in med school because you refuse to use study books due to some contrived understanding of "cheating." We'll see just how far that self-righteousness goes.

Studying for the boards without things like FA and UWorld are a one-way ticket to failure. I don't even know how anyone would study without them!

Also at my school, we take all of our tests and quizzes in a special testing center. Every seat is monitored by video, so no one is going to be dumb enough to teach. I heard that some schools do allow testing based on the honor system. The USMLE will be the great equalizer though, since everyone who takes a test at Prometric is treated like a criminal. Unless you have James Bond's gizmos and gadgets, you're not going to cheat on the boards.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

"I don't steal. I just save money by buying the things from people who do." Gotcha.

Calling an appraisal of your character an ad hominem doesn't invalidate it. And it isn't self-righteousness if one actually does practice what one preaches.

I am not stopping you or anyone else from doing anything with regard to your study habits. I'm just not going to join them in doing things that I think are wrong, no matter how popular they may be. And if I were going to use First Aid, I would at least have the moral courage to admit that I was profiting from someone else's decision to cheat.

You can not be serious!

 

[Planes2Doc]

OP, I hope you have the courage to turn yourself in for cheating since you probably used MCAT study materials. How could you?!

 

[correctlywrong]

Please explain to me how using FA is cheating.

Okay, do you remember when you took the MCAT? Do you remember the screen where you had to agree that you would keep the contents of the test confidential? Did you actually read that, or just check the box and move on?

Whenever you take one of the standardized exams, MCAT/USMLE/etc, you will be asked to agree that you are being permitted to access the exam for a specific purpose, and that you will keep its contents confidential, that you won't attempt to record the test in any way, that you won't tell anyone else what was on the exam. They spell this out very clearly, with language about how protecting the exam content keeps it fair for everyone. You usually have to affirm that your agreement both when you register for the exam and when you actually take it.

So, the FA books are compiled based on people who violate those agreements. They actively solicit for students to "contribute" specific material that they recall from taking the test. Those student's reports are used to build a study guide that teaches to the test, because it is based on material stolen from the test. It is no different than sending a buddy in to take the test ahead of you and then come out to tell you what is on it... except that it is being done on a much larger scale. That it is professionally printed, bound, and sold in great numbers does not change the facts about how the study guide material is obtained.

If you can really look at that honestly and still argue that it isn't cheating, that is on your conscience. I am not okay with it myself. I may not have personally stolen the material, but if I am willing to endorse and support the theft, then I share in the culpability.

 

[Aerus]

Not all study materials are compiled from broken promises and stolen content. In this thread and others, you keep expressing doubt that I will hold to my values in the face of temptation. Why is that so difficult for you to believe? Can you not credit that someone, somewhere might actually be sincere when they say that they care about their character?

If you've ever used books for the MCAT, such as TPR or TBR, then you've "cheated" before, according to your definition. The writers of these books refer to real MCAT questions to create their banks.

 

[correctlywrong]

OP, I hope you have the courage to turn yourself in for cheating since you probably used MCAT study materials. How could you?!

I did use MCAT study materials. I used materials that were published by AAMC, or else based off the published outline. I did not use any of the test prep companies that collect test data from students who had sworn not to reveal it. I used the practice tests published by the AAMC.

I got my 37 honestly.

 

[Planes2Doc]

Okay, do you remember when you took the MCAT? Do you remember the screen where you had to agree that you would keep the contents of the test confidential? Did you actually read that, or just check the box and move on?

Whenever you take one of the standardized exams, MCAT/USMLE/etc, you will be asked to agree that you are being permitted to access the exam for a specific purpose, and that you will keep its contents confidential, that you won't attempt to record the test in any way, that you won't tell anyone else what was on the exam. They spell this out very clearly, with language about how protecting the exam content keeps it fair for everyone. You usually have to affirm that your agreement both when you register for the exam and when you actually take it.

So, the FA books are compiled based on people who violate those agreements. They actively solicit for students to "contribute" specific material that they recall from taking the test. Those student's reports are used to build a study guide that teaches to the test, because it is based on material stolen from the test. It is no different than sending a buddy in to take the test ahead of you and then come out to tell you what is on it... except that it is being done on a much larger scale. That it is professionally printed, bound, and sold in great numbers does not change the facts about how the study guide material is obtained.

If you can really look at that honestly and still argue that it isn't cheating, that is on your conscience. I am not okay with it myself. I may not have personally stolen the material, but if I am willing to endorse and support the theft, then I share in the culpability.

For what it's worth, it's commonly accepted. Everyone uses it. Also no one has ever gone after the authors of FA or other books because of it.

How do you expect to pass the USMLE in the future without these aids? A majority of what you learn in medical school is mostly clinically-irrelevant minutiae. I doubt you can go through all of your course notes and text books to study for this exam. We should all be thanking people for getting us these things, not blasting them.

 

[circulus vitios]

Okay, do you remember when you took the MCAT? Do you remember the screen where you had to agree that you would keep the contents of the test confidential? Did you actually read that, or just check the box and move on?

Whenever you take one of the standardized exams, MCAT/USMLE/etc, you will be asked to agree that you are being permitted to access the exam for a specific purpose, and that you will keep its contents confidential, that you won't attempt to record the test in any way, that you won't tell anyone else what was on the exam. They spell this out very clearly, with language about how protecting the exam content keeps it fair for everyone. You usually have to affirm that your agreement both when you register for the exam and when you actually take it.

So, the FA books are compiled based on people who violate those agreements. They actively solicit for students to "contribute" specific material that they recall from taking the test. Those student's reports are used to build a study guide that teaches to the test, because it is based on material stolen from the test. It is no different than sending a buddy in to take the test ahead of you and then come out to tell you what is on it... except that it is being done on a much larger scale. That it is professionally printed, bound, and sold in great numbers does not change the facts about how the study guide material is obtained.

If you can really look at that honestly and still argue that it isn't cheating, that is on your conscience. I am not okay with it myself. I may not have personally stolen the material, but if I am willing to endorse and support the theft, then I share in the culpability.

No offense but this is literally one of the dumbest things I've ever read.

 

[Planes2Doc]

I did use MCAT study materials. I used materials that were published by AAMC, or else based off the published outline. I did not use any of the test prep companies that collect test data from students who had sworn not to reveal it. I used the practice tests published by the AAMC.

I got my 37 honestly.

Okay then, I guess that's doable. After all, it seemed like my TPR notes were reteaching me everything from the basic sciences. As for the USMLE, there's absolutely no way you can do well on that exam by looking over all of your MS1/2 material. There's simply too much. There's just no way. So good luck with that.

 

[correctlywrong]

If you've ever used books for the MCAT, such as TPR or TBR, then you've "cheated" before, according to your definition. The writers of these books refer to real MCAT questions to create their banks.

What are those?

I used the content outlines published by the AAMC and their practice exams. I took the exams to check my understanding, and the content guidelines to guide my study in my actual text books.

 

[NickNaylor]

Not all study materials are compiled from broken promises and stolen content. In this thread and others, you keep expressing doubt that I will hold to my values in the face of temptation. Why is that so difficult for you to believe? Can you not credit that someone, somewhere might actually be sincere when they say that they care about their character?

I too am sincere in my character. But under your own definition of cheating using these review books - which are intended to be high yield for the boards - is itself cheating. That's just absurd, particularly when added to the obnoxious way in which you flaunt your "moral superiority."

As someone else said, I'm sure you'll make a lot of friends in med school. Keep it up.


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[correctlywrong]

No offense but this is literally one of the dumbest things I've ever read.

How? Why?

What is dumb about caring about my academic integrity and wanting to keep my word? What is dumb about being trustworthy?

 

[Aerus]

What are those?

I used the content outlines published by the AAMC and their practice exams. I took the exams to check my understanding, and the content guidelines to guide my study in my actual text books.

I can totally respect your own decisions to stick with the textbooks and think that some of these posts are a bit strong and out of line. But it bothers me that you yourself are saying people who use prep books lack integrity.

Once we're out of the clear rules of what is and isn't allowed, the subject of integrity becomes very subjective and is very debatable, which is why we should not thrust our own morality on to others in such a situation. Using prep books are not against any rule AAMC sets and it's debatable whether using material someone else got from the test is actually violating integrity or not, since there is no objective line.

 

[correctlywrong]

I too am sincere in my character. But under your own definition of cheating using these review books - which are intended to be high yield for the boards - is itself cheating. That's just absurd, particularly when added to the obnoxious way in which you flaunt your "moral superiority."
As someone else said, I'm sure you'll make a lot of friends in med school. Keep it up.
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Not going to med school for the social opportunities. And I am not holding anyone else to my standards for myself. I am not going to tattle on anyone for using an FA book. I just won't do it myself. Why should anyone care what I think?