How Widespread Is Cheating in Med School?

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correctlywrong said:
Not going to med school for the social opportunities. And I am not holding anyone else to my standards for myself. I am not going to tattle on anyone for using an FA book. I just won't do it myself. Why should anyone care what I think?
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Cool, have fun SOAPing into North Dakota FM after multiple Step 1 failures.
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Aerus said:
I can totally respect your own decisions to stick with the textbooks and think that some of these posts are a bit strong and out of line. But it bothers me that you yourself are saying people who use prep books lack integrity. Once we're out of the clear rules of what is and isn't allowed, the subject of integrity becomes very subjective and is very debatable, which is why we should not thrust our own morality on to others in such a situation.
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I don't hold grudges over forum posts, and appreciate that we all have a wide range of opinions.

I am twice the age of a lot of people here, and there really is a generational difference in what is acceptable. I have seen that the current generation cheats whenever it can. People on this thread have expressed approval for the idea that of course students are going to cheat anytime they are given the opportunity. Some have basically applauded people who are able to successfully cheat, and only seem to condemn those who get caught. That does bother me, and I do think that those statements reflect a lack of real intellectual pride and, yes, integrity.

I wasn't the one who brought up FA, etc, but when pressed on the matter, no, I am not personally comfortable using them. Everyone else can do as they want, of course, but I can't help but look at how they are made. It bothers me. So does veal. But I am not going to take any action against someone whose conscience leads them to a different conclusion, other than to appeal to them to reconsider.
 
Well, assuming from general consensus of premeds in SDN, no one cares about academic dishonesty. People who do care are often welcomed with 'Do you have sand in your vagina' comment.

I was a Justice for the Conduct office at my school. We received about 300 to 500 cheating cases. About 100 of them are cases from life science classes(bio,chem,orgo and etc). 80% of total cases are concluded with guilty verdicts. Judging from my personal opinion, a cheater will be a cheater forever. I bet it won't be hard to find cheaters in medical school
 
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Honestly, I wasn't aware that TBR and other materials came from people TQing answers. It puts a slightly new perspective on things I guess because I don't really consider using test materials cheating. I think too I'd have to be a medical student to truly weigh in on this discussion.
 
BrCo said:
Honestly, I wasn't aware that TBR and other materials came from people TQing answers. It puts a slightly new perspective on things I guess because I don't really consider using test materials cheating. I think too I'd have to be a medical student to truly weigh in on this discussion.
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TBR is NOT TQing... They just condense the material into what is necessary for the MCAT.
 
BrCo said:
Honestly, I wasn't aware that TBR and other materials came from people TQing answers. It puts a slightly new perspective on things I guess because I don't really consider using test materials cheating. I think too I'd have to be a medical student to truly weigh in on this discussion.
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I can tell you specifically that one of the SN2ed books was made specifically by people taking the MCAT, memorizing specific sections, voiding their scores/not doing anything, and using those specific passages and questions to build test material.

Whether using these prep books is actually cheating or not is, as I said earlier, debatable.
 
BrCo said:
Honestly, I wasn't aware that TBR and other materials came from people TQing answers. It puts a slightly new perspective on things I guess because I don't really consider using test materials cheating. I think too I'd have to be a medical student to truly weigh in on this discussion.
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Yeah same here. I have heard stories of people taking an exam on the East Coast, and then relaying the questions to people in either Hawaii or on the West Coast. I've read about people getting caught for running these types of cheating rings.

As for test prep companies, I've never thought about. This is the first time I've ever heard someone have an issue with it.
 
I don't think there is anything wrong with studying specialized review books, so long as the materials are ethically sourced.
 
correctlywrong said:
Not going to med school for the social opportunities. And I am not holding anyone else to my standards for myself. I am not going to tattle on anyone for using an FA book. I just won't do it myself. Why should anyone care what I think?
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I realize you don't intend to "tattle," but I still think the notion of "turning someone in" for using First Aid is delightfully hilarious.

I imagine the authority figure whom you told furrowing his/her brow, confused as to why you've brought them this information. "The whole class is using First Aid! Oh, the cosmic injustice! It feels so dishonest." The word dishonest is spoken through a deep, tired sigh. You are weary of this unfair world, this morally decrepit profession. The administrator replies, incredulous, "Really?". Earnestly, sincerely, you repeat the accusation. Realizing you were serious, the assistant Dean would wince, shake his or her head, and quietly say that they appreciated your honesty. Rising from their chair, the bemused Dean ushers you from the room. When you're out of earshot (or, maybe they wouldn't offer you the courtesy), they start cackling uncontrollably as they proceed to email everyone else in the administration about the naive MS-1 who thought using First Aid was cheating. They would tell that story at Christmas parties and staff cookouts for a few years, until it got old because everyone had heard it five times.

Also, no one is going to medical school for the social opportunities. But alienating people during medical school will follow you into your career -- it's the foundation of your professional network.
 
ahstern said:
With no experience yet, I would assume that (especially in P/F schools), cheating is minimal. It seems hard to get to this point in life and still be ok with cheating rather than working.
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first of all, you would be surprised.

secondly, I would be scared shi**less to cheat. No thank you. I'd take that f rather than getting kicked out.
 
correctlywrong said:
That is unfortunately a far more common practice than it ought to be, and not just for USMLE Steps. I have seen that kind of behavior endorsed by residents and even attendings. In some very competitive environments, some people begin to act as though the agreement they signed to keep test material confidential is more like a suggestion...

I was appalled when I found myself the apparent beneficiary of such a practice at my hospital. Basically everyone who works in nursing at my hospital is eligible for a specialty certification exam after a couple years of working in the field. There is a hospital sponsored prep course, which we are strongly encouraged to take. The hospital likes to be able to advertise how many of its nurses have specialty certification. I took the course, and was really disappointed. It seemed like the information was presented in a very disjointed fashion, and that it focused too much on some very specific details of some diseases, while barely touching on the highlights of others. A week later, when I took the exam, I realized why the course had been that way. For virtually every question, I could recall having been coached, sometimes to such a degree that the wording of the question matched up with the way the presenter at the prep course had explained the topic.

I didn't have evidence, so I didn't report it. But when it came time to renew the certification the next year, I didn't. I just let it lapse. When our nurse educator asked why, I explained my concerns, and she, of course, denied that there was anything inappropriate going on.

I've since learned that for specialties that have begun to require recertification every 10 years for attendings, that similar "study groups" are available, and well utilized.

Cheating happens. All you can do is hold yourself to a higher standard, rather than joining the crowd by saying that well, everyone else is doing it so...
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And who better to lecture to everyone else about cheating, than a premed.
 
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correctlywrong said:
And if I were going to use First Aid, I would at least have the moral courage to admit that I was profiting from someone else's decision to cheat.
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correctlywrong said:
I am not going to tattle on anyone for using an FA book. I just won't do it myself. Why should anyone care what I think?
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You are a troll and a bad troll at that. The self-righteous like yourself are the first to cave and hide their First Aid in their backpack while lecturing to everyone else.
 
NickNaylor said:
I too am sincere in my character. But under your own definition of cheating using these review books - which are intended to be high yield for the boards - is itself cheating. That's just absurd, particularly when added to the obnoxious way in which you flaunt your "moral superiority."

As someone else said, I'm sure you'll make a lot of friends in med school. Keep it up.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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You cheated by using review books, First Aid, and any and all Qbanks. (end sarcasm)

I agree, she will make TONS of friends in med school. Would love to see how she gets along on the wards as well.
 
correctlywrong said:
I don't hold grudges over forum posts, and appreciate that we all have a wide range of opinions.

I am twice the age of a lot of people here, and there really is a generational difference in what is acceptable. I have seen that the current generation cheats whenever it can. People on this thread have expressed approval for the idea that of course students are going to cheat anytime they are given the opportunity. Some have basically applauded people who are able to successfully cheat, and only seem to condemn those who get caught. That does bother me, and I do think that those statements reflect a lack of real intellectual pride and, yes, integrity.

I wasn't the one who brought up FA, etc, but when pressed on the matter, no, I am not personally comfortable using them. Everyone else can do as they want, of course, but I can't help but look at how they are made. It bothers me. So does veal. But I am not going to take any action against someone whose conscience leads them to a different conclusion, other than to appeal to them to reconsider.
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lol
 
Kalydeco said:
I realize you don't intend to "tattle," but I still think the notion of "turning someone in" for using First Aid is delightfully hilarious.

I imagine the authority figure whom you told furrowing his/her brow, confused as to why you've brought them this information. "The whole class is using First Aid! Oh, the cosmic injustice! It feels so dishonest." The word dishonest is spoken through a deep, tired sigh. You are weary of this unfair world, this morally decrepit profession. The administrator replies, incredulous, "Really?". Earnestly, sincerely, you repeat the accusation. Realizing you were serious, the assistant Dean would wince, shake his or her head, and quietly say that they appreciated your honesty. Rising from their chair, the bemused Dean ushers you from the room. When you're out of earshot (or, maybe they wouldn't offer you the courtesy), they start cackling uncontrollably as they proceed to email everyone else in the administration about the naive MS-1 who thought using First Aid was cheating. They would tell that story at Christmas parties and staff cookouts for a few years, until it got old because everyone had heard it five times.

Also, no one is going to medical school for the social opportunities. But alienating people during medical school will follow you into your career -- it's the foundation of your professional network.
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One thing wrong with your story. It would NEVER get old. The idea that she thinks a book published by McGraw Hill - fully acknowledged by Step 1 study guides and med schools themselves (heck some even BUY it for their students) shows me she's quite the deluded premed who will fail out of med school in no time.
 
correctlywrong said:
Okay, do you remember when you took the MCAT? Do you remember the screen where you had to agree that you would keep the contents of the test confidential? Did you actually read that, or just check the box and move on?

Whenever you take one of the standardized exams, MCAT/USMLE/etc, you will be asked to agree that you are being permitted to access the exam for a specific purpose, and that you will keep its contents confidential, that you won't attempt to record the test in any way, that you won't tell anyone else what was on the exam. They spell this out very clearly, with language about how protecting the exam content keeps it fair for everyone. You usually have to affirm that your agreement both when you register for the exam and when you actually take it.

So, the FA books are compiled based on people who violate those agreements. They actively solicit for students to "contribute" specific material that they recall from taking the test. Those student's reports are used to build a study guide that teaches to the test, because it is based on material stolen from the test. It is no different than sending a buddy in to take the test ahead of you and then come out to tell you what is on it... except that it is being done on a much larger scale. That it is professionally printed, bound, and sold in great numbers does not change the facts about how the study guide material is obtained.

If you can really look at that honestly and still argue that it isn't cheating, that is on your conscience. I am not okay with it myself. I may not have personally stolen the material, but if I am willing to endorse and support the theft, then I share in the culpability.
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gentlemen-weve-been-had.jpg


FA has been making cheaters out of all of us all along!
 
DermViser said:
One thing wrong with your story. It would NEVER get old. The idea that she thinks a book published by McGraw Hill - fully acknowledged by Step 1 study guides and med schools themselves (heck some even BUY it for their students) shows me she's quite the deluded premed who will fail out of med school in no time.
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Nvm logic. It just means that this cheating is institutionalized. Duh.
 
correctlywrong said:
Not going to med school for the social opportunities. And I am not holding anyone else to my standards for myself. I am not going to tattle on anyone for using an FA book. I just won't do it myself. Why should anyone care what I think?
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Do you not think that if the AAMC and NBME had problems with the use of "sourced" study materials they would explicitly forbid them in their examinee agreements?


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correctlywrong said:
So, the FA books are compiled based on people who violate those agreements. They actively solicit for students to "contribute" specific material that they recall from taking the test. Those student's reports are used to build a study guide that teaches to the test, because it is based on material stolen from the test. It is no different than sending a buddy in to take the test ahead of you and then come out to tell you what is on it... except that it is being done on a much larger scale. That it is professionally printed, bound, and sold in great numbers does not change the facts about how the study guide material is obtained.

If you can really look at that honestly and still argue that it isn't cheating, that is on your conscience. I am not okay with it myself. I may not have personally stolen the material, but if I am willing to endorse and support the theft, then I share in the culpability.
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I hope you really choose your school very specifically for one that teaches very accurately towards step1 without basing any of their lectures on info gathered in the same manner as (or more likely by) the prep companies, you can ask med students at pretty much any school in the country and they will tell you their lectures didn't teach in a way that would let you succeed on step1. They all needed to use review books and question banks to make that transition of information they learned/kinda-maybe learned from lecture to how they need to know it and use it to be able to pass step1. I personally have never met someone who told me their standard med school education prepared them well at all for step1 without the use of outside materials (which are produced just like MCAT companies materials, by having people take the test and memorize questions for them to use for practice questions).
 
gettheleadout said:
Do you not think that if the AAMC and NBME had problems with the use of "sourced" study materials they would explicitly forbid them in their examinee agreements?


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If it was really a problem, mass litigation would ensue. This is 'Murica after all.
 
I really don't get why you are all so up in arms about my personal choice not to use certain materials, based on my personal evaluation of the origins of that material. I'm not in any position to impose my decision on anyone else, only to state it. Why does that seem to bother you so much that you have to either declare me to be insincere or else trolling?
 
correctlywrong said:
I really don't get why you are all so up in arms about my personal choice not to use certain materials, based on my personal evaluation of the origins of that material. I'm not in any position to impose my decision on anyone else, only to state it. Why does that seem to bother you so much that you have to either declare me to be insincere or else trolling?
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I don't believe anyone really cares what materials you choose to study. Imposing your own pretentious brand of moral superiority on others, who have chosen to use well-established board preparation materials, is the reason some are ridiculing you. See below:

correctlywrong said:
Certainly would seem that way, wouldn't it?

Look, I get it. Academic integrity doesn't count for much these days. But when I read and accepted the agreements associated with the MCAT, I noticed that they specifically prohibit discussing the content of the test with other people. They make it pretty explicit that attempting to recall questions and report them to other people is not permitted. When I agreed to that, I meant it. That so many other people don't take their agreements as seriously does not make it acceptable.

Not everyone is comfortable trading their integrity away for a small advantage. If that is how you live, though, I guess that might be hard to imagine.
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correctlywrong said:
I really don't get why you are all so up in arms about my personal choice not to use certain materials, based on my personal evaluation of the origins of that material. I'm not in any position to impose my decision on anyone else, only to state it. Why does that seem to bother you so much that you have to either declare me to be insincere or else trolling?
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Probably because your are broadcasting what you perceive to be everyone's moral deficits as measured by your arbitrarily scaled moral ruler without having gone through the process yourself due to "social reasons."

If these were truly your personal choices and feelings, they would not be written out in a public forum. This is not hard.
 
My friend is a PT student and the entire class with the exception of a handful of students got caught assisting each other with an online quiz. They were allowed to use books/materials just not each other. The consequence was 1 year suspension and having to take a few ethics courses before being able to start back up.
 
TriNurse said:
My friend is a PT student and the entire class with the exception of a handful of students got caught assisting each other with an online quiz. They were allowed to use books/materials just not each other. The consequence was 1 year suspension and having to take a few ethics courses before being able to start back up.
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This makes me scared.
 
They got together in groups and took the test either at the same time or one after the other on the same computer. She said the whole situation sucked but she's paid her dues and is back on her way to be a PT.
 
correctlywrong said:
I really don't get why you are all so up in arms about my personal choice not to use certain materials, based on my personal evaluation of the origins of that material. I'm not in any position to impose my decision on anyone else, only to state it. Why does that seem to bother you so much that you have to either declare me to be insincere or else trolling?
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Clearly everyone on this forum cheats so often they can no longer construct meaningful responses. Once the first ne'er-do-well accused you of trolling, the herd reflexively peered over their shoulder and copied the charge verbatim. As such, their accusations can no longer be considered ethically sourced, and I expect that you'll be terminating your membership with this site at your earliest convenience. Keep fighting the good fight.
 
Knowing premeds and their gunner cutthroat mentality I would expect it to be pretty common especially if the school isn't pass or fail. It's your typical prisoner's dilemma =/
 
I'm sure it happens, and that terrifies me.
I'm also surprised it isn't an immediate expulsion.
I've been told since middle school that colleges expel people for cheating and plagiarism. But these same people told me I'd actually be using cursive in high school so I don't know why I believed them...
 
correctlywrong said:
Not going to med school for the social opportunities. And I am not holding anyone else to my standards for myself. I am not going to tattle on anyone for using an FA book. I just won't do it myself. Why should anyone care what I think?
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I don't care whether or not you want to have a social life. As someone said, the way you flaunt your "moral superiority" is beyond obnoxious. And I hope you don't do that in real life, because if you do, not only will you never have friends, you'll be that irritating, pompous doctor that everybody hates. You'll never have anyone who'll be willing to cover a shift for you when you really need it. Your patients will dislike you and therefore be more likely to sue you. The nurses won't help you any more than they're required to. They'll page you every time you try to go to the bathroom. YOUR COWORKERS CAN MAKE YOUR LIFE MISERABLE IF THEY THINK YOU'RE AN ***HOLE.

I hope you learn that being a decent person involves not only integrity but also the ability to get along with your fellow human beings. Do whatever you want, but stop moralizing to other people.
 
ZezKaiEll said:
I cannot fathom how you are confident in making such a harmful generalization.
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They like to post around in multiple threads taking their "moral high ground" and speaking to others like they are some completely pure gift from the heavens and how everyone else on sdn seems to be completely unethical, immoral people pursing medicine for selfish reasons. I wouldn't bother, this person has an extreme superiority complex and has already established the belief that they are right and much better than everyone else for that reason.
 
Lambda Phage said:
Take home home quiz? What do the professors think is going to happen?
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It was common in my ugrad to give closed-book take-home exams, and it was extremely uncommon for anyone to cheat on them. It can totally work out, given the right environment.
 
mehc012 said:
It was common in my ugrad to give closed-book take-home exams, and it was extremely uncommon for anyone to cheat on them. It can totally work out, given the right environment.
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Wow, crazy. These were unheard of when I was a college student. We did have open-book take-home exams though where we had a weekend to complete them. They were incredibly difficult and long.
 
In regards to the original question: Nobody in my class, as far as I know, cheated during 1st year. We are true P/F for the preclinical years and that probably has something to do with it, but honestly most of us seem to be of the mind that it's better to fail honestly than to take such a huge risk.

In regards to FA as an unethical study tool: doesn't the USMLE release previously used test questions after a certain period of time? Is it unethical to study past testing material, provided by the source, to help compile a comprehensive study tool to sell to overwhelmed students? Unless correctlywrong is in on staff for FA, I'm pretty sure s/he cannot know exactly how it is compiled.

I've always thought that cheating is gaining an unfair advantage, either by having prior knowledge of the exact material being tested over, or having access to outside resources during the exam itself. FA, UWorld, etc. give you a lot of information that could be tested over, but none of it is guaranteed to be on the exam.

I'm certainly not offended that someone doesn't think it's right to use FA, I just feel bad that they might ignore such a useful tool.
 
SpacemanSpifff said:
In regards to the original question: Nobody in my class, as far as I know, cheated during 1st year. We are true P/F for the preclinical years and that probably has something to do with it, but honestly most of us seem to be of the mind that it's better to fail honestly than to take such a huge risk.
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Biggest caveats, eh? If you knew there was cheating then they probably sucked at it.
 
Reading this thread made me laugh hard enough for foie gras to come out of my nose.

My old copy of First Aid is sitting on a bookshelf, staring at me and harshly judging me every day. I console myself by the fact that its pages were almost assuredly harvested from organic, farm-raised, fair trade trees.
 
GuyWhoDoesStuff said:
Reading this thread made me laugh hard enough for foie gras to come out of my nose.

My old copy of First Aid is sitting on a bookshelf, staring at me and harshly judging me every day. I console myself by the fact that its pages were almost assuredly harvested from organic, farm-raised, fair trade trees.
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Oh please, everyone knows "farm-raised" is a scam to make you feel better about what you are doing to those poor innocent trees.
 
Using OP's logic, it's essentially cheating unless you yourself made the medical discovery which you are learning.
 
correctlywrong said:
I don't hold grudges over forum posts, and appreciate that we all have a wide range of opinions.

I am twice the age of a lot of people here, and there really is a generational difference in what is acceptable. I have seen that the current generation cheats whenever it can. People on this thread have expressed approval for the idea that of course students are going to cheat anytime they are given the opportunity. Some have basically applauded people who are able to successfully cheat, and only seem to condemn those who get caught. That does bother me, and I do think that those statements reflect a lack of real intellectual pride and, yes, integrity.

I wasn't the one who brought up FA, etc, but when pressed on the matter, no, I am not personally comfortable using them. Everyone else can do as they want, of course, but I can't help but look at how they are made. It bothers me. So does veal. But I am not going to take any action against someone whose conscience leads them to a different conclusion, other than to appeal to them to reconsider.
Click to expand...

I'm not one to necrobump, but the idiocy of your posts has been building up, and I actually laughed out loud at this climax of your blowhardness. I hope you didn't/dont' fail your boards (actually I slightly do so that maybe you'd get knocked off your high horse).
 
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