How will new schools impact osteopathic medicine?

[BriannaRodriguez1992]

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So with all the new DO schools opening around the US, I'm wondering what the impact will be for DOs and DO students post merger?

I'm thinking it will be harder to obtain residencies for DO students than it was 5 years ago due to increased competition from students from the new schools. Thoughts?

 

[Rekt]

So with all the new DO schools opening around the US, I'm wondering what the impact will be for DOs and DO students post merger?

I'm thinking it will be harder to obtain residencies for DO students than it was 5 years ago due to increased competition from students from the new schools. Thoughts?

Every new school that opens will have a negative impact on not just the ability to match, but also to the reputation of the profession since the schools that are opening up are not going to provide adequate training.

 

[AlteredScale]

Every new school that opens will have a negative impact on not just the ability to match, but also to the reputation of the profession since the schools that are opening up are not going to provide adequate training.

Agreed. Instead of building upon current DO schools by establishing strong health partnerships with hospitals, instead of building research opportunities for students, instead of hiring more than the minimal number of faculty to teach classes of 200+, the AOA and COCA have decided to create branch campuses and approve new schools to make the "DO professions stronger" while in parallel making the profession a laughing stock with terrible clinical rotations where you can have 4th year students who haven't even participated in an inpatient/wards based/resident team lead rotation the ENTIRE third year.

All the while the TheDO propaganda machine continues to spout the same success message. Embarrassing.


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[kelminak]

Agreed. Instead of building upon current DO schools by establishing strong health partnerships with hospitals, instead of building research opportunities for students, instead of hiring more than the minimal number of faculty to teach classes of 200+, the AOA and COCA have decided to create branch campuses and approve new schools to make the "DO professions stronger" while in parallel making the profession a laughing stock with terrible clinical rotations where you can have 4th year students who haven't even participated in an inpatient/wards based/resident team lead rotation the ENTIRE third year.

All the while the TheDO propaganda machine continues to spout the same success message. Embarrassing.


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As a low-stat applicant, I almost feel bad that I'll likely be taking advantage of this explosion of schools to get in somewhere when I may not have otherwise. How can I be against the opening of new schools when I'll be the one abusing it? :/

 

[Rekt]

As a low-stat applicant, I almost feel bad that I'll likely be taking advantage of this explosion of schools to get in somewhere when I may not have otherwise. How can I be against the opening of new schools when I'll be the one abusing it? :/

By doing your best on boards. The poorer performing students will just be screened out, even by COMLEX alone. That'll become the new MCAT. If GME expansion does not occur, then new residencies will not open (which is not the answer anyway), this combined with how many AOA residencies are closing/will close due to the merger means significantly increased competition among applicants. I'll even start to feel the effects when I apply since I'm an M2, I can't even imagine 5-6 years from now, plus the additive stress of DO school proliferation. I will not be surprised that if in 2021 or 2022 that the DO PLACEMENT rate (not match rate) will fall to around 90% (optimistic figure in my opinion).

 

[pseud0]

What's the difference between matching and placing..?

 

[AlteredScale]

What's the difference between matching and placing..?

Matching means FIRST match. These are the ones who on Monday of match week receive and email that says "congratulations! You have matched". Placing means the initial match as well as the SOAP and subsequent scramble (these are for those who did not match). So when a school says 100% placement it doesn't mean much. When a school says 99% match that means 99% did not have to go through the SOAP or scramble and match within their programs they ranked/listed on their ROL.


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[Rekt]

What's the difference between matching and placing..?

Matching means FIRST match. These are the ones who on Monday of match week receive and email that says "congratulations! You have matched". Placing means the initial match as well as the SOAP and subsequent scramble (these are for those who did not match). So when a school says 100% placement it doesn't mean much. When a school says 99% match that means 99% did not have to go through the SOAP or scramble and match within their programs they ranked/listed on their ROL.

Right. Overall DOs currently have a placement rate of 99.5%, which means all but 0.5% of DOs get into some residency. The real match rate for ACGME (MD) programs for DOs is roughly 80-85% depending on how someone calculates it. Keep in mind, by the time OP is applying, a fallback we have, the scramble, will be gone as well.

 

[AlteredScale]

Right. Overall DOs currently have a placement rate of 99.5%, which means all but 0.5% of DOs get into some residency. The real match rate for ACGME (MD) programs for DOs is roughly 80-85% depending on how someone calculates it. Keep in mind, by the time OP is applying, a fallback we have, the scramble, will be gone as well.

The scramble will be gone? I wasn't aware of that at all.

 

[Wjldenver]

So with all the new DO schools opening around the US, I'm wondering what the impact will be for DOs and DO students post merger?

I'm thinking it will be harder to obtain residencies for DO students than it was 5 years ago due to increased competition from students from the new schools. Thoughts?

The proliferation of DO schools will allow more marginally qualified students to enter. However, with the number of residency slots static, only those students who do well enough on their boards will match. As some other posters on this thread have indicated, the "not match" rate could increase to 10% which sounds plausible in my opinion. So what happens to the students who do not match? Well, they will need to pursue alternate professions since their medical degree will be useless.

Take a look at the attached link. This illustrates one Caribbean medical student who did not do well enough on her boards and now is pursuing a nursing degree at Marian University in Indianapolis (which coincidentally is also a DO school). It is a competitive world as the article indicates, and some in the medical profession think it is a good thing that the weakest candidates do not match. Of course, the number of "no matches" will just increase with the proliferation of DO schools.

https://www.statnews.com/2016/11/28/residency-failed-to-match/

 

[pseud0]

Jeez..you really think a 9 percent placement drop by 2021 is likely?? that's awful

 

[Rekt]

The scramble will be gone? I wasn't aware of that at all.

As far as I know. Isn't it solely AOA linked? The only option we'd have left is the normal SOAP.

 

[AlteredScale]

As far as I know. Isn't it solely AOA linked? The only option we'd have left is the normal SOAP.

I always thought the scramble occurred for everyone after the official SOAP and not just with AOA. I may be wrong though.

 

[TheaterOfTheme]

Jeez..you really think a 9 percent placement drop by 2021 is likely?? that's awful

Frightening idea-surely schools must have a safeguard in place somehow?

 

[kelminak]

By doing your best on boards. The poorer performing students will just be screened out, even by COMLEX alone. That'll become the new MCAT. If GME expansion does not occur, then new residencies will not open (which is not the answer anyway), this combined with how many AOA residencies are closing/will close due to the merger means significantly increased competition among applicants. I'll even start to feel the effects when I apply since I'm an M2, I can't even imagine 5-6 years from now, plus the additive stress of DO school proliferation. I will not be surprised that if in 2021 or 2022 that the DO PLACEMENT rate (not match rate) will fall to around 90% (optimistic figure in my opinion).

Thanks for this. My past definitely doesn't define me and I'll put absolutely everything into med school if I'm able to secure an acceptance. I can't wait for a clean slate.

 

[Marrowist]

Money drives nearly every decision made in this country. None of this is surprising to me. I am sure people were saying similar things as this 10 years ago, and 10 years before that. Nothing we can really do about it.

 

[Goro]

Trying to predict things post-merger is like trying to predict who will win the 2020 presidential election. Exactly the same number of DO schools have opened over the past 10 years as have MD schools.

Right now there are still more residency slots than med school grads to fill them. Even if we open TEN new MD and DO schools each, there will still be slots open. Keep in mind that AOA residencies are only ~1/10th of the total pool.

Will they be the slots you want? Not necessarily. But I'll bet at first, all of you wanted to go to Harvard and UCSF too.

Currently some 2/3rd of DOs go into Primary Care. Only about 20% of MDs do the same. I foresee this trend will stay the same for the foreseeable future (but be leery of ALL SDNers who claim the gift of prophesy). MUCOM and IU are quite happy with this arrangement in the state of IN. The stated goal of the AOA is to train primary care clinicians. My advice for those of you who want to be "ologists" is to do well in school, ace USMLE, and do even better in your clinical years.

Medical education in the US is an evolving process. At one time, surgeons were not considered to be physicians. This is still reflected in the name of the med school run by Columbia U.

Also keep in mind that the Baby Boom generation of clinicians will be retiring or dying off soon. Somebody has to fill their shoes!

The majority of my students, due to geography, go into ACGME residencies. Being DOs doesn't hurt them. I also see glass doors once shut not slowly opening, not just for my kids, but for grads of other established DO schools as well.

So the sky is not falling. Does the AOA shoot itself in the foot with opening schools that don't have good rotation sites? Yes. Will you have to work harder? yes. But you're afraid of hard work, are you? In many ways, DO residents are like African-Americans at the end of segregation. The downside to the DO degree is the prejudice that residency directors have towards DOs. This isn't universal, but the higher up the speciality competitiveness tree you climb, the greater it will be. So, if you screw up as a DO, the thinking will be "well, that's a DO for you". But if you screw up as an MD, it's "boy, that guy is an idiot."

So with all the new DO schools opening around the US, I'm wondering what the impact will be for DOs and DO students post merger?

I'm thinking it will be harder to obtain residencies for DO students than it was 5 years ago due to increased competition from students from the new schools. Thoughts?

 

[TheaterOfTheme]

Trying to predict things post-merger is like trying to predict who will win the 2020 presidential election. Exactly the same number of DO schools have opened over the past 10 years as have MD schools.

Right now there are still more residency slots than med school grads to fill them. Even if we open TEN new MD and DO schools each, there will still be slots open. Keep in mind that AOA residencies are only ~1/10th of the total pool.

Will they be the slots you want? Not necessarily. But I'll bet at first, all of you wanted to go to Harvard and UCSF too.

Currently some 2/3rd of DOs go into Primary Care. Only about 20% of MDs do the same. I foresee this trend will stay the same for the foreseeable future (but be leery of ALL SDNers who claim the gift of prophesy). MUCOM and IU are quite happy with this arrangement in the state of IN. The stated goal of the AOA is to train primary care clinicians. My advice for those of you who want to be "ologists" is to do well in school, ace USMLE, and do even better in your clinical years.

Medical education in the US is an evolving process. At one time, surgeons were not considered to be physicians. This is still reflected in the name of the med school run by Columbia U.

Also keep in mind that the Baby Boom generation of clinicians will be retiring or dying off soon. Somebody has to fill their shoes!

The majority of my students, due to geography, go into ACGME residencies. Being DOs doesn't hurt them. I also see glass doors once shut not slowly opening, not just for my kids, but for grads of other established DO schools as well.

So the sky is not falling. Does the AOA shoot itself in the foot with opening schools that don't have good rotation sites? Yes. Will you have to work harder? yes. But you're afraid of hard work, are you? In many ways, DO residents are like African-Americans at the end of segregation. The downside to the DO degree is the prejudice that residency directors have towards DOs. This isn't universal, but the higher up the speciality competitiveness tree you climb, the greater it will be. So, if you screw up as a DO, the thinking will be "well, that's a DO for you". But if you screw up as an MD, it's "boy, that guy is an idiot."

It's good to hear your take in it @Goro. However, what do you think about the possibility of placement falling by 10%? We can't predict the future, but do you know of any planned safeguards?


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[Goro]

DO's not being able to match at all? That's a fanciful notion. Do you really think that so many residency sites are going to go belly up?

In the worst case scenario, that this would happen, I would surmise that COCA would sanction schools that couldn't find matches for a significant number of thier graduates, and order them to cut back on class sizes. This would also slow down the opening of new schools, unless those schools have direct partnerships with extant programs to provide residency sites. this would require schools to cough up cash for this. Just my 2 cents.

It's good to hear your take in it @Goro. However, what do you think about the possibility of placement falling by 10%? We can't predict the future, but do you know of any planned safeguards?


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[Dustbowl12]

I LOVE the doomsday predictions, all are wrong. Clinical rotations need to improve at some schools and that's all. MD and DO expansion is needed to block mid level encroachment

 

[68PGunner]

50-60% of my school go to ACGME residencies every year while only about 45-48% of each graduating class go to PC. So, for some DO schools, it won't make that much of a difference. However, if you're that person who's at the bottom of your class, you should be VERY AFRAID...

 

[Ho0v-man]

I really went out of my way to make sure I went to a well established school with a solid third year clinical education and a good reputation.

Too bad that I'll get lumped in with whatever garbage comes out of the branch campus of wcu[emoji30]

Edit: I was tired and at the end of a long shift when I posted the above. My critique in regards to wcu is not of the students, but of a chronically underperforming school establishing a branch campus and ripping off its students.

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[LutGholein]

I imagine established schools will continue to prosper(PCOM, DMU-COM, KCUMB et al.)-- and hopefully those of questionable quality(looking at the new CHSU COM) will crash and burn for the betterment of the profession.
Understanding that a lot of the established DO schools have interchangeable stats compared to many state MD schools it's inevitable that this overlap will grow more and more. Just slay those boards and send hate mail to COCA.

 

[MADD!!!]

DO's not being able to match at all? That's a fanciful notion. Do you really think that so many residency sites are going to go belly up?

In the worst case scenario, that this would happen, I would surmise that COCA would sanction schools that couldn't find matches for a significant number of thier graduates, and order them to cut back on class sizes. This would also slow down the opening of new schools, unless those schools have direct partnerships with extant programs to provide residency sites. this would require schools to cough up cash for this. Just my 2 cents.

@Goro The prediction I'm seeing is that in the future many students for these new DO schools will have passing scores on COMLEX, but historically uncompetitive. Now with students from a DO school with a passing score (say 450ish on COMLEX and/or 200+ for USMLE) vs an IMG or non US IMG with a 230 USMLE, which student would PD's favor?

Because you do say IMG's will get hit the hardest, but what about top-end IMG's vs bottom end MD and DO students?

 

[Goro]

IMGs have a host of issues that I've discussed in the past repeatedly. A nice USMLE score doesn't wash these issues away, and, in fact reinforces them in the eyes of PDs.

You are also making the mistake of confusing poor clinical education with COMLEX I performance. While it is true that new schools are weaker on Level I, some hit upon the right curriculum (or gel as a Faculty) and their students art doing OK. There's actually not much daylight between a lot of school's average COMLEX scores., and the SDs are large. At my school, the weakest 10% (~10 people) perform so poorly that they skewed the overall curve to the left very badly! These were people who should have been dismissed by the end of year I, but our dean doesn't like to do that, to the chagrin of the Faculty. But I digress.

There are still enough residency slots, so that even weak DO students will end up in something. Obviously, not Derm, Ortho, or ENT.

@Goro The prediction I'm seeing is that in the future many students for these new DO schools will have passing scores on COMLEX, but historically uncompetitive. Now with students from a DO school with a passing score (say 450ish on COMLEX and/or 200+ for USMLE) vs an IMG or non US IMG with a 230 USMLE, which student would PD's favor?

Because you do say IMG's will get hit the hardest, but what about top-end IMG's vs bottom end MD and DO students?

 

[MADD!!!]

IMGs have a host of issues that I've discussed in the past repeatedly. A nice USMLE score doesn't wash these issues away, and, in fact reinforces them in the eyes of PDs.

You are also making the mistake of confusing poor clinical education with COMLEX I performance. While it is true that new schools are weaker on Level I, some hit upon the right curriculum (or gel as a Faculty) and their students art doing OK. There's actually not much daylight between a lot of school's average COMLEX scores., and the SDs are large. At my school, the weakest 10% (~10 people) perform so poorly that they skewed the overall curve to the left very badly! These were people who should have been dismissed by the end of year I, but our dean doesn't like to do that, to the chagrin of the Faculty. But I digress.

There are still enough residency slots, so that even weak DO students will end up in something. Obviously, not Derm, Ortho, or ENT.

I sure hope you're right @Goro. And yes, I'm talking FM here, loll.

Also out of curiosity, so that bottom 10% still passed their boards? If so then I'm happy your Dean didn't kick them out, unless you think they would be horrible doctors in practice too.

 

[Goro]

Those bottom 10 all passed the second time around.

Most people. It's extremely rare to dismiss people due to multiple COMLEX failures.

I sure hope you're right @Goro. And yes, I'm talking FM here, loll.

Also out of curiosity, so that bottom 10% still passed their boards? If so then I'm happy your Dean didn't kick them out, unless you think they would be horrible doctors in practice too.

 

[deleted244469]

As a low-stat applicant, I almost feel bad that I'll likely be taking advantage of this explosion of schools to get in somewhere when I may not have otherwise. How can I be against the opening of new schools when I'll be the one abusing it? :/

Don't feel bad. One of the perks of the explosion of DO schools is that you may be granted an opportunity that you might not have previously had. Use it to your advantage! Being successful in medical school is up to YOU. Study hard, rock boards, and you'll get into a competitive residency 🙂. Not all of us (myself included) knew 100% that we wanted to be physicians going into undergrad. I know that personally, I am VERY grateful to have this opportunity. If I am given an acceptance, I am planning to work my tail off.

 

[Rekt]

I really went out of my way to make sure I went to a well established school with a solid third year clinical education and a good reputation.

Too bad that I'll get lumped in with whatever garbage comes out of the branch campus of wcu[emoji30]

Edit: I was tired and at the end of a long shift when I posted the above. My critique in regards to wcu is not of the students, but of a chronically underperforming school establishing a branch campus and ripping off its students.

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Not sure what you mean by this. It's pretty well know WCU is one of the weakest DO schools in the country, right above Liberty.

 

[Dr.Jekyll75]

Either way you put it, the merger is bad for DOs. These new schools are a necessary evil as mentioned before. At the end of the day you still have to work hard than a Md to get the same recognition


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[Ho0v-man]

Not sure what you mean by this. It's pretty well know WCU is one of the weakest DO schools in the country, right above Liberty.

Yeah but I personally feel that's more so a reflection of the school and didn't want to look down on the individual students who were fooled by smoke and mirrors.


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[Dustbowl12]

Either way you put it, the merger is bad for DOs. These new schools are a necessary evil as mentioned before. At the end of the day you still have to work hard than a Md to get the same recognition


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Absolutely not. ALL DOs will have better postgraduate training now in ACGME

 

[Dr.Jekyll75]

Absolutely not. ALL DOs will have better postgraduate training now in ACGME

Yes let's bask in the idea that we will have better training on one end, while we get shafted on other residency opportunities. Maybe I'm just living in a bubble but in my state we have really good AOA programs.


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[MADD!!!]

You guys are being pessimistic. There are benefits too you know! 1) You gain strength by numbers -- the more practicing DO's there are, the more recognized it will be and the whole explaining what a DO is will be a thing of the past.

2) Most of the lower-tier students will be relegated to primary care, which our country desperately needs. Many of these "lower-tier" applicants will now have access to go to a DO school, where otherwise they would've gone to the carribean. Have you seen how many carribean grads there are each year?! A lot

3) I don't think the pace of growth is the problem, but rather the standards for a new program to be accredited by COCA are too low. For example, having no cadavers and instead using a sim lab. Inadequate clinical rotation sites, lack of GME for your students.

They should be like LCME and be more stringent on their rules for accreditation