HPSP crisis

[lililili]

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Hi,

I am totally new here, and I know that questions similar to this have been asked before but I need to know where I stand now, as some of those threads are quite old.

I am an MS1, and an AirForce HPSP 4 year recipient.

I am needing to be released from HPSP contract due to changes in my health.

I have sent some emails and left a couple of messages after a conversation I had with the program director, but no one is in a hurry to get back with me.

Please PM me or post here any suggestions you guys might have for me, or your personal experiences. Has anyone been released from the scholarship recently? What do I have to do to get someone to listen?

 

[IlDestriero]

You don't tell the Government that you want to get out of your commitment, they tell you when they want you to get out.

It sounds like you did what you needed to do. You notify them of your issues and they take it from there. If it takes them several months to process, order records, bring you in to see an AF MD, etc., all the better as you are getting paid. As long as this isn't something you concealed (fraudulent enlistment/ appointment) you probably won't have to pay back what they've given you. If they discover you did conceal health problems, expect to get a bill for everything they gave you (tuition, reimbursement, stipend, etc.) due upon receipt. They could also give you a form of dishonorable discharge (it has a different name when dismissing officers) and pursue prison time of up to 2 years.

Good luck with your health problems.

 

[idq1i]

Look up the guidelines for separating physicians for medical reasons - it's rare, and requires extraordinary circumstances. Granted, you are an MS1 and the same standards my not apply yet. Make sure you can demonstrate that your condition is indeed new, and have a good answer for how it would potentially prevent you from being a physician even out of milmed

This is how the army phrases it:
3-13. Special rules applicable to general and medical corps officers
a. General officers and medical corps (MC) officers will not be found to be unfit by reason of physical disability if they can be expected to perform satisfactorily in an assignment appropriate to their grade, qualifications, and experience.

 

[pgg]

Lots of things are waiverable for military physicians. You didn't say what the health problem is (and I'm not asking you to reveal it if you don't want to) but the Air Force will decide what is in the best interest of the Air Force and either retain or let you go - probably without your input. You've done your part and notified them. The system moves slowly, so don't be too worried that they haven't responded promptly. However, you may wish to send something more documentable than an email, so if necessary later you can prove you notified them.

Generally, if
- you have an injury or illness incompatible with service, AND
- you did not fail to disclose anything related to that injury or illness upon entry, AND
- the injury or illness is not the result of any kind of criminal misconduct
you will be discharged and no repayment will be due.

If you didn't disclose something relevant upon entry, or you got sick/injured while sticking up a liquor store or snorting cocaine, the Air Force may want its money back.

 

[bustbones26]

Hi,

I am totally new here, and I know that questions similar to this have been asked before but I need to know where I stand now, as some of those threads are quite old.

I am an MS1, and an AirForce HPSP 4 year recipient.

I am needing to be released from HPSP contract due to changes in my health.

I have sent some emails and left a couple of messages after a conversation I had with the program director, but no one is in a hurry to get back with me.

Please PM me or post here any suggestions you guys might have for me, or your personal experiences. Has anyone been released from the scholarship recently? What do I have to do to get someone to listen?

Okay, so I went through this way back in 2003. I did not have anything significant, but I sort of got scared whenever I was reading through my HPSP manual and it say something on the order of "report any changes in your health". So I did!

I had transient transaminitis and the discovery of a pituitary mass. I was already being well evaluated by civilian doctors at the time.

I talked to my coordinator through HPSP and they cut me orders to go to Walter Reed for essentially and MEB work up. I had to see an endocrinologist and GI doctor. Both were fellows that asked me straight out, "Do you want to get out?". They made it seem as if they could write up the recommendations to sound horrible if I really wanted out.

It all worked out for the best for everybody:
1) I played by the rules and reported my changes in health, so no strikes against me
2) The transaminitis eventually resolved, I did not have anything major and nobody really knows why it happened? But hey, some GI fellow at Walter Reed got himself a fee liver biopsy out of the deal.
3) I eventually had my pituitary mass removed by a minimally invasive procedure at a civilian hospital by the surgeon that developed the procedure. I had no complications.
4) Did my residency, passed my APFTs, did active duty time, got out, and nothing really happened in between.

At end of the day, it is your responsibility to report that there is a change in your health status. Its very odd as you are in the Air Force, but not really in the Air Force, but likely they will put you through a process similar to mine.

 

[lililili]

My health status change is two-fold:

I broke my dominant hand in October, and have very little function of my hand still, despite a painful hand surgery, and a long time in a splint. I can not make a fist or lay my hand flat. I am still not able to write with my hand, and had to teach myself to write with my left hand.

While the whole ordeal with my hand was going on, I thought I would have to postpone my MS1 year, as I could not write or type for several months. Imagine being a read-write learner with no way to write! I stuck it out though, but suffered a complete nervous breakdown, and am currently being treated for generalized anxiety and depression, as well as ADHD.

Given the condition of my hand, I called to see what would happen to me since I can not attend COT this summer. I was told that if I do not go to COT, I will not be able to do any military rotations, which apparently are crucial in getting a residency spot.

I do not not want my hand injury to prevent me from getting into residency.
I do not want to be under-trained, "half-MD", whatever.
I want to get residency training that will be fitting for me based on my academic achievement and other accomplishments. I do not want to be left untrained because my injury prevented me from going to COT.

So, I told them I want out. I was told that "no one gets out". It can not be true. After all, I did not sell myself into slavery, although it feels like I did. Or, like I sold my soul to the devil or something.

I asked if I can get a waiver for my hand so I would not have to perform any exercises involving my hand. I was told that I would have to do a rope course, as well as push-ups. That means, no COT for me.

I just want out now, because I want to get a residency, not just an intern year, and then be forced into practice.

Do you guys know who I need to talk to, if the HPSP program director would not return my phone calls?

I am thinking of contacting my Congressman, but am not sure what other people's experiences have been.

How can I get myself heard?

 

[orbitsurgMD]

My health status change is two-fold:

I broke my dominant hand in October, and have very little function of my hand still, despite a painful hand surgery, and a long time in a splint. I can not make a fist or lay my hand flat. I am still not able to write with my hand, and had to teach myself to write with my left hand.

While the whole ordeal with my hand was going on, I thought I would have to postpone my MS1 year, as I could not write or type for several months. Imagine being a read-write learner with no way to write! I stuck it out though, but suffered a complete nervous breakdown, and am currently being treated for generalized anxiety and depression, as well as ADHD.

Given the condition of my hand, I called to see what would happen to me since I can not attend COT this summer. I was told that if I do not go to COT, I will not be able to do any military rotations, which apparently are crucial in getting a residency spot.

I do not not want my hand injury to prevent me from getting into residency.
I do not want to be under-trained, "half-MD", whatever.
I want to get residency training that will be fitting for me based on my academic achievement and other accomplishments. I do not want to be left untrained because my injury prevented me from going to COT.

So, I told them I want out. I was told that "no one gets out". It can not be true. After all, I did not sell myself into slavery, although it feels like I did. Or, like I sold my soul to the devil or something.

I asked if I can get a waiver for my hand so I would not have to perform any exercises involving my hand. I was told that I would have to do a rope course, as well as push-ups. That means, no COT for me.

I just want out now, because I want to get a residency, not just an intern year, and then be forced into practice.

Do you guys know who I need to talk to, if the HPSP program director would not return my phone calls?

I am thinking of contacting my Congressman, but am not sure what other people's experiences have been.

How can I get myself heard?

 

[orbitsurgMD]

I think you need to see this process as requiring less input from you than from the Air Force. You may wish to resign your scholarship and your commission, and believe you have good reasons for doing so, but understand that the Air Force's priority is to obtain a medical school graduate able to do an internship (not necessarily a whole residency, and not necessarily the residency you might wish to have) at a certain point in time.

Your first obligation is to notify them--and I recommend you do so by certified return receipted postal letter, not an email--that you have a medical condition that may be considered disqualifying for duty and for commissioning. (While you are commissioned now, you will be re-commissioned when you graduate). Do this ASAP. Keep all the documentation of your initial email, any correspondence you received in return (or a diary recording their failure to respond, perhaps just as important, under the circumstances.) While you are waiting, you need to gather everything in record pertaining to your medical problem and treatment for the same: records, x-rays, CT, MR, records of any physical therapy, prescriptions, surgical records, everything. Have it ready to submit, because eventually someone in the military is likely to want that prior to evaluating you. Put it all on disk if you can.

As far as your wanting out because you believe your inability to perform physical activities at COT (and assuming this precludes you from going to COT with your graduating class at the usual time) will place you outside the competitive pool of residency candidates and thus possibly render you not competitive for a residency slot somewhere you think you might otherwise have a shot, you may be disappointed to learn they probably don't care. They aren't necessarily going to deal with your problem on the timetable you might want to optimize your residency application opportunities, and they aren't necessarily going to conclude that the best course of action for them is to release you from your commitment. If they believe your injury has a chance of recovering with treatment in the time left before you graduate, they might require you attend COT after graduation and let the chips fall where they may training-wise. (And I realize that is the last thing you want.)

 

[colbgw02]

So, I told them I want out. I was told that "no one gets out". It can not be true. After all, I did not sell myself into slavery, although it feels like I did. Or, like I sold my soul to the devil or something.

I asked if I can get a waiver for my hand so I would not have to perform any exercises involving my hand. I was told that I would have to do a rope course, as well as push-ups. That means, no COT for me.

I just want out now, because I want to get a residency, not just an intern year, and then be forced into practice.

Do you guys know who I need to talk to, if the HPSP program director would not return my phone calls?

I am thinking of contacting my Congressman, but am not sure what other people's experiences have been.

How can I get myself heard?

What makes you think anyone is listening?

Consider this a wake up call to the realities of the military.

 

[lililili]

orbitsurgMD,

You have voiced my worst fears. They may indeed decide that my hand will improve by the time I graduate, and they could care less if I get into residency or not.

Is it really up to them?
Do I not have any say-so? It is a contract, not a bondage, after all.

I know I signed on the dotted line, but I did so in good faith at the time. I thought I would go to COT, do some military rotations, and get into Internal Medicine residency. I wanted to serve. I became such a mess in the past few months, that I do not think I will be any good for the Air Force anyways. All I do is cry, and think of the worst.

I want to just pay them their money back, and continue on with my education. Being residency-trained is so worth it!

On that note, what happens to the taxes that I paid on the stipend and the sign-on bonus?

 

[lililili]

What makes you think anyone is listening?

Consider this a wake up call to the realities of the military.

Yes, clearly, no one is listening. I already got that. Hence, the reason for my post. How do I get them to listen.

Last thing I need right now is sarcasm, although I truly appreciate any input. I am asking for constructive advice, and not allusions to my naiveté. I am not that naive any more.
I never thought they would care. I just need to know how to get myself out of this mess and pay back what is owed to them.

 

[colbgw02]

Is it really up to them?

Yes.

You're quickly turning into the poster child for someone who signs up for HPSP without any real understanding of what the military is like. Whatever expectations of how your service would proceed need to be adjusted. Even if your hand and mental health recover and you end up with a successful Air Force experience, you need to understand this truism of military service - anything can change at any time, so only things in the past tense are a certainty. If things work out in your favor, then all the better, but the moment you begin to count on the military to do X, they'll do Y.

 

[colbgw02]

Yes, clearly, no one is listening. I already got that. Hence, the reason for my post. How do I get them to listen.

Last thing I need right now is sarcasm, although I truly appreciate any input. I am asking for constructive advice, and not allusions to my naiveté. I am not that naive any more.
I never thought they would care. I just need to know how to get myself out of this mess and pay back what is owed to them.

That wasn't sarcasm. They're not listening and you can't make them. They've heard everything they need to hear for now, and they'll be in touch when they need more.

 

[lililili]

That wasn't sarcasm. They're not listening and you can't make them. They've heard everything they need to hear for now, and they'll be in touch when they need more.

I am sorry. I might be overreacting. Or, maybe they need to adjust my depression and anxiety meds, as I am too sensitive or something.

I will send them a certified letter tomorrow!

I was clearly told by the program director lady that I can count on doing a GMO tour if I do not go to COT this summer.
To me, that is equivalent to wasting 4 years of medical school, no offense to those who did GMO, but I am 30 years old, and do not want to delay my residency training.

Please, people, if you have got yourselves out of HPSP, please post your experiences, or if you know someone who got out.

I refuse to succumb to this military medicine reality, I know there has to be a way out.

 

[colbgw02]

The certified letter is a great place to start.

Secondly, can anyone in the Air Force confirm that they really won't allow ADTs for HPSP students who haven't done COT? That seems very Draconian, even by military standards. I'm wondering if you were given an answer in bureaucratese, when - in reality - the answer is much more nuanced. Besides, you can always do away rotations to military hospitals, even if they're not ADTs, although it will cost you money out-of-pocket. Also, I'm sure you wouldn't be the first AF HPSP student to have to do COT some time other than between first and second year.

Thirdly, you're obviously dead set against being a GMO, but surely you realize that doing a GMO tour in the Air Force is very common. As an MSI, I doubt you have any idea of how competitive you'll be or a well-developed sense of what specialty you'll want. So, with or without COT, how can you be so sure that being a GMO wasn't in your future anyway? Or were you planning on choosing a non-competitive specialty specifically to avoid GMO land?

Fourthly, there's nothing to do right now to get out of HPSP, at least nothing that is honorable . You need to let the medical evaluation process run its course. Certainly, document everything and make sure things are proceeding, but there is no one who is just going to release from the program. To use a customer service phone call metaphor, there is no manager to whom you can be transferred when the phone-answering peon gives you the canned response.

 

[IlDestriero]

Wake up chief. You signed a contract to join the military and serve your country as a commissioned officer. You don't get to do whatever you want when you want. You're not some knucklehead 18 yr old getting suckered into enlisting. Don't act like one.

 

[KinesStudent]

Can anyone speak to the mentioned aspect of not being able to do military rotations if you haven't attended COT/ODS etc. ? Not to steal any of your focus lililililililililili, but I'm in a program that won't afford me the opportunity to complete ODS until around 4th year, should I try a little more aggressively to get some time to complete ODS? I'm Navy if that helps. Thanks, sorry about your situation lilililili - I second what someone has said about creating a records system of all your attempts to make contact. Also, getting all of your medical records in a row will only help your process.

 

[lililili]

Wake up chief. You signed a contract to join the military and serve your country as a commissioned officer. You don't get to do whatever you want when you want. You're not some knucklehead 18 yr old getting suckered into enlisting. Don't act like one.

yikes. Your words are harsh. But true. And totally unnecessary. I am asking for constructive advice. If you've got none, no need to spew out venom. Peace.

 

[IlDestriero]

When you schedule your meeting with your congressman to ask him to start a congressional inquiry into why you won't be released, make sure you show him your contract and your signature at the bottom.
Lots of people have to do GMO time, especially in the Navy. They served with pride and have done just fine. You will too.

 

[lililili]

To use a customer service phone call metaphor, there is no manager to whom you can be transferred when the phone-answering peon gives you the canned response.

Could not have been said better.

As to rotations, the program lady said that the reason I can not do military rotations without COT, is because COT is the place where I learn to wear my uniform and conduct myself properly.

As to the specialty, my passion is Heme/Onc, and I was planning on doing an Internal Med residency with the military, serving my time in that capacity, and then doing a civilian fellowship afterwards. I am not a gullible person, but what in the world was I thinking? Clearly, things never work out the way you want them in the military, but it is completely different to be denied residency because I can not do military rotations due to an injury.

What amazes me, the program lady did not even ask for my medical records. What is up with that? Do they not want proof?

 

[idq1i]

Could not have been said better.

As to rotations, the program lady said that the reason I can not do military rotations without COT, is because COT is the place where I learn to wear my uniform and conduct myself properly.

As to the specialty, my passion is Heme/Onc, and I was planning on doing an Internal Med residency with the military, serving my time in that capacity, and then doing a civilian fellowship afterwards. I am not a gullible person, but what in the world was I thinking? Clearly, things never work out the way you want them in the military, but it is completely different to be denied residency because I can not do military rotations due to an injury.

What amazes me, the program lady did not even ask for my medical records. What is up with that? Do they not want proof?

Let your thread and the responses be a lesson to all those lurkers thinking about joining. Some day I will post my story too.

Despite several responses of senior people here you fail to grasp the basic concept - you are NOT a priority. They will get back to you on their schedule a day, week, month or year later. Your job is to be honest, keep a log of contacts and responses, and a complete file of medical records. Your perceived sense of urgency does not matter to them. Active duty purple heart people wait for years to get their med board process completed. You are far, far less important.

Get a hold of yourself, stop flipping out, stop the letter writing to your congressman. Be patient, explain your condition in a controlled, dispassionate way, and wait for a response. Have a contingency plan for a negative outcome.

Also, you are scared of GMO. What made you think that with or without COT and/or an injury that you wouldn't do a GMO tour after an internship? This may sound really mean to you now, but according to your own admission, you are not some snot-nosed kid, and you should have really done your research before joining. You are in a service that is very likely (somewhat less so than navy) to GMO their people

 

[lililili]

If I can be a cautionary tale, so be it.
I hope this will open someone's eyes and make them think long and hard before joining.

I am OK with people being mean to me here, as I truly should have known better. I still want to hear everyone's experiences, and advice, even if people scorn me and chase me with sticks along the way. idq1i, please write your story.

I guess I need to saddle up for a long wait. How long, any experiences? How long does it take for them to decide if they are going to let you out?

 

[orbitsurgMD]

Hi,

I am totally new here, and I know that questions similar to this have been asked before but I need to know where I stand now, as some of those threads are quite old.

I am an MS1, and an AirForce HPSP 4 year recipient.

I am needing to be released from HPSP contract due to changes in my health.

I have sent some emails and left a couple of messages after a conversation I had with the program director, but no one is in a hurry to get back with me.

Please PM me or post here any suggestions you guys might have for me, or your personal experiences. Has anyone been released from the scholarship recently? What do I have to do to get someone to listen?

You: <I don't want to do a GMO tour. I want to do a residency in internal medicine. I have this medical problem now. Actually, two medical problems. I think the earliest problem will keep me from doing COT. If I don't do COT on time, I won't have as good a shot at getting a straight-through internal medicine residency.

I want out. Now.>

Them: <We need n-numbers of license-able post interns for our projected GMO+PGY2 cohort in FY 2018. You are one of our expected new medical officers. You signed, we paid. Contract. Now you say you are broken. There is time yet, maybe you will get fixed. No hurry. We really don't care when you do COT in the end. We really don't care if you are the recipient of a three-year IM deferment, a three-year IM residency with us or a one year deferment who does COT at the end of internship and then does GMO and applies for GME as a flight surgeon. We have people doing all of these.

Is your problem disqualifying? If yes, can it resolve? If no, can it be waivered? We don't care that you want out. Right now, that isn't our concern.>

 

[idq1i]

If I can be a cautionary tale, so be it.
I hope this will open someone's eyes and make them think long and hard before joining.

I am OK with people being mean to me here, as I truly should have known better. I still want to hear everyone's experiences, and advice, even if people scorn me and chase me with sticks along the way. idq1i, please write your story.

Also, I want to make it clear: I am not some kind of idiot who woke up one day and changed her mind. I truthfully thought that Internal Med residency would not be unattainable. I am not trying to use my medical issues as an excuse to get out, I want to pay back what was given to me.
Contracts can be broken, even government contracts. With a penalty attached, of course.
But I do not mind paying the penalty. To me, residency training is worth paying the penalty.

I guess I need to saddle up for a long wait. How long, any experiences? How long does it take for them to decide if they are going to let you out?

Being on the inside, I want to tell you that no one is being mean to you. If you end up getting retained, you will see what I am talking about it. The military is a huge inefficient, top heavy bureaucracy. It moves very slowly, hamstrung by ridiculously cushy union contracts, excessive and undeserved time off/sick days/comp days, dumb training days, day-long meetings about scheduling meetings, etc. Your letter is probably sitting on a desk of some official that got 3 days off for bad weather, 2 more days of liberal leave, and 3 more sick days all in a row. After s-he gets back, there will be some meeting that this person has to attend - all day. Maybe a week later they get back to your email. After it gets read, it gets sent to someone else, then someone else, then another department, then another department in another building, then someone else in another state...you get the point. Then they will ask for your records. 2 months later, they will lose your records and claim that they never got them. Then they will send them back, asking for a clarification for having had 3 commas on page 2 where only one is required. 4 months later they will ask you to come in for an exam where they will repeat all your prior workups. 3 months later they will lose the results of the workup and accuse you of missing your appointment. You are looking and months and months of waiting, maybe years. Get a hold of yourself and prepare for the long haul. Also, based on what you said about your injury, it is unlikely that you will be released (unless they decide that for some reason it's easier to just jettison you since you are just an MS1). This whole depression/GAD/anxiety thing - everyone in the military claims this - easy VA rating booster. That and sleep apnea. Join the neurotic club.

Emailing 25 people, hiring a lawyer, calling congress will just piss them off. Don't do it. Let them make a decision based on the facts. Once again, be prepared to be disappointed. Don't lie or embellish - you don't want an OTH discharge

 

[orbitsurgMD]

One other thing you may do is in addition to sending the certified letter to the HPSP program manager, is also send a cert mail copy to the BUMED JAG (or whatever the USAF equivalent is) so that if by chance you happen to have your correspondence land on the desk of the kind of individual described above (and the unique educational and hiring climate of the nation's capital produces some spectacular examples of ineptitude, illiteracy and sloth) someone who understands the significance of a first-class letter sent with a $5.40 postage label might bother to read it and realize that the moment the postman scanned that letter, a legal clock started ticking. Lawyers know what "time is of the essence" means.

 

[Perrotfish]

I know exactly one person who was released. The process took approximately 2 years. A few things

1) Keep records of everything. Ever letter, every fax, and every Email. You should have (physically and digitally) all medical records related to your condition. You should invest in a scanner if you don't have one.

2) When you surrender records to them in any way, expect them to lose everything. I've had them lose my vaccination records 3 times in one day. You never give up your last copy. As soon as you're down to one copy you make more copies. The best way to send records is always scanned copies by Email.

3) If your school has vacation or is liberal with their definition of electives you may be able to do COT in MS3. Just go ahead and ask your dean what your options are. Your administration will probably respond faster than the military.

4) You may find your rotation sites don't really care if you do COT, or that they only care if you come on orders but don't care if you come as a civilian rotator.

5) Do be persistent, but don't start spamming the military and don't call your congressman. If they don't respond in a week I would email again and also send a certified letter. Then repeat again in another week. Then trying calling. But don't email daily and don't email more than one person. Most of all don't jump up the chain of command until you have absolutely exhausted all options on this level of the chain. FWIW they have always responded to me eventually... though slowly. I doubt you'll be flat out ignored indefinitely.

orbitsurgMD,
Is it really up to them?
Do I not have any say-so? It is a contract, not a bondage, after all.

This is the most important thing to understand: it IS an unbreakable contract, for all intents and purposes. You don't have any of the legal protections that you would have if you entered into a contract with another private citizen or with a corporation, and you can't choose to break the contract from your end in exchange for a financial penalty: the penalty for breaking this contract is to be convicted of a felony and to go to a military prison. 17 year olds sign these contracts because their recruiter bought them half a dozen McNuggets and they don't let them out of it, they certainly aren't letting you out of your contract either. You need to let the military decide if THEY want to keep you or not. Also accept that they might want to keep you.

 

[Perrotfish]

...

 

[colbgw02]

As to rotations, the program lady said that the reason I can not do military rotations without COT, is because COT is the place where I learn to wear my uniform and conduct myself properly.

Again, I hope someone in the Air Force can chime in on this, because it sounds like this little old lady in white tennis shoes is talking out of her fourth point of contact.

 

[pgg]

Maybe, back up the truck a bit.




If this is truly a permanent disability, the Air Force will decide in good time what it wants to do.

Your priority now, at least with regards to the Air Force, is to minimize any impact this might have on your medical training, including residency. Gimpy hand or not, you might be able to do COT on time. Were it me, I'd strongly consider just going to COT and enthusiastically doing the 99.3% of the COT-stuff that you can do despite the bad hand.

The Air Force may be managed by indifferent reptilian aliens, but the people who will be in charge at COT are likely to be human beings, not the lizard-blooded guys at the home office. If the COT instructors perceive you as a willing officer with a physical limitation, they'll probably work pretty hard to accommodate you. When I did Navy OIS, we had a couple people who were on light duty throughout the course and it was fine. Completion of COT may or may not require passing the Air Force fitness test; for us OIS was a non-observed fitness report period and even though they made a big deal out of passing the fitness test, it really didn't matter in the long run.

If you can go to COT, and get through it, and maybe even gut out a passing fitness test (really, you don't need fine motor control in the hand to do some push-ups), you'll be in good shape.

Go to COT unless they tell you that you CAN'T.

 

[met19]

I agree with pgg.

go to COT. When I was at OIS there were even a few that did not have to do the PFT due to their limdu status.

 

[Cooperd0g]

Another thing that going to COT might help with is speed up your medical timeline. You show up at COT all hand busted and on half a dozen meds for depression/anxiety/ADHD and someone might start running your case up the flag pole.

By the way, I thought medicated ADHD was non-waiverable so how did you get in with that one? And don't say you just developed it because you are 30 and technically develop ADHD at 30.

Also, no one is being mean to you. People with experience are trying to tell you the way the world works. If you see that as mean, then yes, you are absolutely too sensitive right now.

 

[Dwindlin]

Another thing that going to COT might help with is speed up your medical timeline. You show up at COT all hand busted and on half a dozen meds for depression/anxiety/ADHD and someone might start running your case up the flag pole.

By the way, I thought medicated ADHD was non-waiverable so how did you get in with that one? And don't say you just developed it because you are 30 and technically develop ADHD at 30.

Also, no one is being mean to you. People with experience are trying to tell you the way the world works. If you see that as mean, then yes, you are absolutely too sensitive right now.

ADHD can be diagnosed at anytime. Symptoms just have to occur before a certain age.

 

[colbgw02]

By the way, I thought medicated ADHD was non-waiverable so how did you get in with that one? And don't say you just developed it because you are 30 and technically develop ADHD at 30.

ADHD can be diagnosed at anytime. Symptoms just have to occur before a certain age.

Perhaps you missed the bolded part of Cooperd0g's post. And perhaps you're not familiar with the medical evaluation process in order to receive a commission, particularly one that comes with a scholarship attached, that should have picked up on these symptoms. It's a reasonable question to ask.

 

[Dwindlin]

Perhaps you missed the bolded part of Cooperd0g's post. And perhaps you're not familiar with the medical evaluation process in order to receive a commission, particularly one that comes with a scholarship attached, that should have picked up on these symptoms. It's a reasonable question to ask.

You are right, I'm not familiar with the evaluation process. Though I would be surprised if people routinely ask questions about ADHD symptoms that may have occurred as a child to an adult who is seemingly functioning well. I was simply commenting on the fact that adults CAN be diagnosed with ADHD and subsequently treated later in life.

 

[Gastrapathy]

Wow, this thread is a train-wreck but its not a cautionary tale as much as an overreaction to a first experience with the military. OP, very few military careers go exactly according to the member's plan. Your main focus needs to be on healing your orthopedic and psychiatric illnesses to the point that you'll be able to function in the medical profession in or out of the military. The AF does not owe you an instant answer. In fact, they don't owe you any answer. You had an obligation to inform and you've done so. Proceed.

 

[Kilgoretrout 65]

I was told that if I do not go to COT, I will not be able to do any military rotations, which apparently are crucial in getting a residency spot.

You can still get a variety of residency spots by performing well in med school and on the standardized tests and interviewing by phone. Just explain the COT situation to the PD.
Granted, some residencies are easier to get than others: IM, FM, path, psych are easier to get into than ortho, rads, EM, depending on the year. Don't panic.
Even if you don't get in, do your internship, GMO and re-apply. And after all that is done, if you still don't get your residency, chalk it up to life experience, pay back your time as a GMO,
walk away from the military, with or without a single digit salute. By that time you will have earned the GI Bill and can go back to school doing something else or use it to pay rent when you
are a civilian resident. Don't panic.

 

[Cooperd0g]

By that time you will have earned the GI Bill and can go back to school doing something else or use it to pay rent when you
are a civilian resident. Don't panic.

This is a common misconception. You don't start earning the Post 9/11 GI Bill until after you have paid back any minimum service obligation. So and HPSP person needs to do at least 7 years to get the GI Bill - 4 for payback and 3 for the GI Bill.

 

[IlDestriero]

This is a common misconception. You don't start earning the Post 9/11 GI Bill until after you have paid back any minimum service obligation. So and HPSP person needs to do at least 7 years to get the GI Bill - 4 for payback and 3 for the GI Bill.

I don't believe that you are correct. According to the VA web site, you need 36 months of active duty to qualify for 100%. I saw nothing about 36 months after obligated service time. If you have a link to that, I'd like to see it.
I'm considering using mine for an executive MBA, so I have looked a bit at it. I also served 7 years of AD, so it probably doesn't apply to me either way.

 

[Cooperd0g]

Unless you were a USUHS guy then it won't matter to you because you did 4 years plus 36 months or more. I don't have a link to it on the VA website, but here is one from Military.com:
http://www.military.com/education/gi-bill/new-gi-bill-frequently-asked-questions.html

Are graduates of the service academies included in this bill?

The GI bill will allow officers who graduated from service academies or received ROTC scholarships to qualify for the new GI Bill benefits. The only catch is that the time spent satisfying the ROTC/Service Academy active duty obligation does not count toward the 3 years necessary to qualify for the full benefits.

Whether you believe it or not, I know plenty of ROTC and academy grads who have used the Post 9/11 GI Bill, including myself, and eligibility is calculated based on time served after initial payback was completed. When you actually apply for the benefits it is a lengthy questionnaire and wants to know all about your military record. That will include commissioning sources. They will know what time is owed for what program and if you met that commitment and beyond or not. A ROTC graduate cannot do 4 years and then claim Post 9/11 GI Bill because the government already paid for their college once, you don't get college paid for twice without doing the extra time. Same for an academy graduate. You have to do MORE than what your original obligation called for to qualify. HPSP is paying for school once already, therefore you have to do more than the original commitment to begin qualifying. It is always difficult to find out the details of programs like these and what is published on the VA website is aimed primarily at the target audience - enlisted personnel who did some time and now want to go to college. You all know that even recruiters are frequently wrong about things. HPSP is a tiny program for the military overall. Perhaps someone can get sneak through because HPSP is such a small program, but officially it isn't allowed unless you do more than your 4 years. It would also be a mistake to take it even if you snuck through that way because if they eventually found out they would come calling for their money as anyone who has been accidentally overpaid knows.

 

[colbgw02]

Is it possible that, for GI Bill purposes, time in residency counts toward the 36-month obligation? I understand that this time in training doesn't count for any other obligation, but maybe the VA sees it differently? After all, it is time "beyond" the 4 years owed from ROTC.

 

[Gastrapathy]

I don't think it's sneaking through. If it's not explicitly banned, it should be fine.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Perrotfish]

Is it possible that, for GI Bill purposes, time in residency counts toward the 36-month obligation? I understand that this time in training doesn't count for any other obligation, but maybe the VA sees it differently? After all, it is time "beyond" the 4 years owed from ROTC.

That's exactly how it works. Your time beyond your initial obligation, if you do HPSP, IS Your residency, as long as you do residency on active duty. Since you need 36 months for full benefits if you do an Intern year and then 4 years of GMO you only get a partial GI bill, since you only have 12 months of Intern year beyond your initial obligation. However if you do a full 3 year residency and then pay back you get the full thing.

 

[Cooperd0g]

Is it possible that, for GI Bill purposes, time in residency counts toward the 36-month obligation? I understand that this time in training doesn't count for any other obligation, but maybe the VA sees it differently? After all, it is time "beyond" the 4 years owed from ROTC.

Absolutely. 3 year GME plus 4 year payback from HPSP = 7 years. Your HPSP is the only thing that contributes to your primary obligation so you would get full credit. Reduced credit for what Perrotfish mentioned. For example I was an academy guy which meant I had to do 5 years minimum. I did aviation, which incurred 8 years after wings. I ended up with 11 years active duty when I went reserves. Despite having and 8 year commitment after wings the VA gave me 6 years constructive credit for the Post 9/11 GI Bill as they only count your minimum required obligation.

Gas: I suppose it isn't sneaking through if they let it go, however I think if people were to apply they would find they are in the position that Perrotfish mentions and only get partial credit. I could be wrong as I do not know anyone who did the minimum from an HPSP and then sought the Post 9/11 GI Bill.

 

[Kilgoretrout 65]

I know one example of an HPSP recipient doing deferred civilian residency, doing a 3 yr payback and then using the GI Bill during his civilian fellowship for the BAH portion. Of course maybe it was reduced, his fellowship was only one year.

 

[Kingfisher]

My health status change is two-fold:

I broke my dominant hand in October, and have very little function of my hand still, despite a painful hand surgery, and a long time in a splint. I can not make a fist or lay my hand flat. I am still not able to write with my hand, and had to teach myself to write with my left hand.

While the whole ordeal with my hand was going on, I thought I would have to postpone my MS1 year, as I could not write or type for several months. Imagine being a read-write learner with no way to write! I stuck it out though, but suffered a complete nervous breakdown, and am currently being treated for generalized anxiety and depression, as well as ADHD.

Given the condition of my hand, I called to see what would happen to me since I can not attend COT this summer. I was told that if I do not go to COT, I will not be able to do any military rotations, which apparently are crucial in getting a residency spot.

I do not not want my hand injury to prevent me from getting into residency.
I do not want to be under-trained, "half-MD", whatever.
I want to get residency training that will be fitting for me based on my academic achievement and other accomplishments. I do not want to be left untrained because my injury prevented me from going to COT.

So, I told them I want out. I was told that "no one gets out". It can not be true. After all, I did not sell myself into slavery, although it feels like I did. Or, like I sold my soul to the devil or something.

I asked if I can get a waiver for my hand so I would not have to perform any exercises involving my hand. I was told that I would have to do a rope course, as well as push-ups. That means, no COT for me.

I just want out now, because I want to get a residency, not just an intern year, and then be forced into practice.

Do you guys know who I need to talk to, if the HPSP program director would not return my phone calls?

I am thinking of contacting my Congressman, but am not sure what other people's experiences have been.

How can I get myself heard?

So what is the big emergency with an MS1 needing out of his/her contract RIGHT NOW? Seriously, you are contemplating getting your worthless Congressman involved? You have been in the program for about 6 or 7 months, sustained an injury (sometime within that period), and now there is this "hair on fire" crisis to get you out of your contract? Is the crisis:
1. You not out of the Military fast enough
2. Your broken hand
3. Your psych issues
4. You not going to COT
5. You potentially doing a GMO tour?
All of the above?

Here is a solution. As stated above, go to COT as-is. There is always a few people too broke to do the minimal PT required of you during that course. They always seem to graduate. That solves problem #4 and potentially #5 at the same time.

Problems 1-3 are harder to deal with. They are likely a vicious circle feeding off of each other. It has been my experience that injuries with occupational implications almost never heal if there is pending litigation and/or if there is secondary gain associated with staying injured. In this case, if your injury has the potential to affect problem #1, then until problem #1 happens, problem #2 is likely not going to improve. Problem #3 complicates this immensely. Problem #3 was likely pre existing and can greatly affect your perception of the symptoms and extent of the disability of problem #2. At this time focus on problem #3 (this seems like the most debilitating of all the problems at the moment), continue working with problem #2 as this may take some time.

Problem #1 is largely out of your hands. Try not to dwell on this one.

 

[deuist]

The military is a huge inefficient, top heavy bureaucracy. It moves very slowly, hamstrung by ridiculously cushy union contracts, excessive and undeserved time off/sick days/comp days, dumb training days, day-long meetings about scheduling meetings, etc. Your letter is probably sitting on a desk of some official that got 3 days off for bad weather, 2 more days of liberal leave, and 3 more sick days all in a row. After s-he gets back, there will be some meeting that this person has to attend - all day. Maybe a week later they get back to your email. After it gets read, it gets sent to someone else, then someone else, then another department, then another department in another building, then someone else in another state...you get the point. Then they will ask for your records. 2 months later, they will lose your records and claim that they never got them. Then they will send them back, asking for a clarification for having had 3 commas on page 2 where only one is required. 4 months later they will ask you to come in for an exam where they will repeat all your prior workups. 3 months later they will lose the results of the workup and accuse you of missing your appointment. You are looking and months and months of waiting, maybe years.

This is by far the most accurate post I've ever seen written about the military. This attitude permeates every aspect of the .mil and affects deployments, payments, healthcare, education, and the list goes on. The OP seems to have disappeared. If lilili is still lurking, I would say that getting into residency has nothing to do with COT. You can do it during 4th year and so long as you've got an impressive enough resume, you can still match.

 

[DermViser]

I am OK with people being mean to me here, as I truly should have known better. I still want to hear everyone's experiences, and advice, even if people scorn me and chase me with sticks along the way. idq1i, please write your story.

I don't think those words mean what you think they mean.