HPSP for someone who wanted to join the military out of high school but didnt?

[magician7772222]

Out of high school I wanted to join the marines but didn't and ended up just going to college and now have an A to start med school next fall. My primary career goal is to become a physician however being able to fulfill my previous desire for experiencing the military on top of that would be nice as well.

Does the experience of this program resemble the experience of actually serving in say the army/navy/airforce during the required events during med school and then during your four years of actually working for the military after residency? Do you undergo the combat training that service members undergo? Do you go through bootcamp or something similar ect?

Also what is the experience of actually serving your 4 years after residency like? Is it more similar to working as a regular physician contracted by the military or is it a more unique experience where you are both a physician and a soldier?

Also if there are any other programs aside from HPSP that would better fit this niche I'd appreciate suggestions too.

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[DOswag]

Prior Air Force psychiatrist here. If you go the HPSP route, during med school you are in a reserve status (IRR or inactive ready reserve I believe is what this stands for unless it's changed since I was in). I did med school from 2010-2014. At some point, whether before you start med school or maybe later in 3rd or 4th year or maybe even after med school before intern year, you will go to officer training. For Air Force it is Commissioned Officer Training or COT. But it is with other healthcare professionals who are also doing HPSP. I did COT just prior to starting med school so it was Jul/Aug (I think it was 5 weeks when I went through it) in Montgomery AL (stupid hot and humid in AL that time of year). It wasn't too bad, initially they made it somewhat intense, waking you up at 4am, yelling, pushing you to move faster, putting some stress on you. Ultimately the biggest thing for COT was to teach you military customs and courtesies, how to carry yourself as an officer, wear your uniform, march, leading others, lots of military history etc. I don't know how the other branches do it but I imagine it's not too different than Air Force. During med school there isn't a lot of requirements for the military. Each year you do an "active duty tour" or ADT for a 45 day period. For me COT counted for the first year. I went to 2 weeks of the 6 week aerospace medicine program or AMP (the course flight docs take) between 1st and 2nd year. My last 2 ADT's were just rotations at military programs in 4th year of med school. Most don't do the combat course that active duty members go through. Flight docs go through SERE training which can be pretty intense but I didn't have to go through that. Residency depends on the route you go. Most will go through the military match and match into an MTF to continue training so you will be expected to keep up with CBT's, maintain physical fitness, don't do stupid things that could get you in trouble with the military. You can do your training at a civilian site but that opens up a lot more questions about how to navigate that as compared to the mil match so feel free to utilize the search function on here for previous threads. Your payback you will be whatever specialty physician you trained for and will take care of active duty patients, may or may not take care of dependents (I only saw active duty), somewhat dependent on branch of service and specialty. You will be expected to have some role for the military side though whether it's a medical director role or something like that but you very likely won't just be "a physician seeing active duty patients", you'll have other responsibilities and sometimes you will feel these responsibilities clash with your role as a physician.

There are other options too. You can go to med school, then join after you complete med school and have already been accepted in a residency program. There is also the option of going through med school and residency training, then doing the reserves or national guard. There's also an HPSP program through the VA. Think long and hard before you sign up for hpsp.

 

[magician7772222]

Prior Air Force psychiatrist here. If you go the HPSP route, during med school you are in a reserve status (IRR or inactive ready reserve I believe is what this stands for unless it's changed since I was in). I did med school from 2010-2014. At some point, whether before you start med school or maybe later in 3rd or 4th year or maybe even after med school before intern year, you will go to officer training. For Air Force it is Commissioned Officer Training or COT. But it is with other healthcare professionals who are also doing HPSP. I did COT just prior to starting med school so it was Jul/Aug (I think it was 5 weeks when I went through it) in Montgomery AL (stupid hot and humid in AL that time of year). It wasn't too bad, initially they made it somewhat intense, waking you up at 4am, yelling, pushing you to move faster, putting some stress on you. Ultimately the biggest thing for COT was to teach you military customs and courtesies, how to carry yourself as an officer, wear your uniform, march, leading others, lots of military history etc. I don't know how the other branches do it but I imagine it's not too different than Air Force. During med school there isn't a lot of requirements for the military. Each year you do an "active duty tour" or ADT for a 45 day period. For me COT counted for the first year. I went to 2 weeks of the 6 week aerospace medicine program or AMP (the course flight docs take) between 1st and 2nd year. My last 2 ADT's were just rotations at military programs in 4th year of med school. Most don't do the combat course that active duty members go through. Flight docs go through SERE training which can be pretty intense but I didn't have to go through that. Residency depends on the route you go. Most will go through the military match and match into an MTF to continue training so you will be expected to keep up with CBT's, maintain physical fitness, don't do stupid things that could get you in trouble with the military. You can do your training at a civilian site but that opens up a lot more questions about how to navigate that as compared to the mil match so feel free to utilize the search function on here for previous threads. Your payback you will be whatever specialty physician you trained for and will take care of active duty patients, may or may not take care of dependents (I only saw active duty), somewhat dependent on branch of service and specialty. You will be expected to have some role for the military side though whether it's a medical director role or something like that but you very likely won't just be "a physician seeing active duty patients", you'll have other responsibilities and sometimes you will feel these responsibilities clash with your role as a physician.

There are other options too. You can go to med school, then join after you complete med school and have already been accepted in a residency program. There is also the option of going through med school and residency training, then doing the reserves or national guard. There's also an HPSP program through the VA. Think long and hard before you sign up for hpsp.

Just to clarify, once you were a post-residency psychiatrist doing your pay back years you were not really doing any traditional active duty activities correct? The majority of the traditional military experience started and ended during the COT, at least in your case?

 

[comp1]

What the heck are traditional active duty activities?

 

[magician7772222]

What the heck are traditional active duty activities?

pt, range, ect

 

[Nontrad_FL_LGBT]

pt, range, ect

You're not going to be a combat arms soldier as a doctor. You do whatever military stuff you have to do to maintain compliance with requirements and standards. You're not going to get to do like, infantry training even if you're a doc for a special operations team or something.

You can do sometimes military schools like Airborne etc if that's something you really want to do, mostly for Army.

 

[DOswag]

pt, range, ect

You're not going to be a combat arms soldier as a doctor. You do whatever military stuff you have to do to maintain compliance with requirements and standards. You're not going to get to do like, infantry training even if you're a doc for a special operations team or something.

You can do sometimes military schools like Airborne etc if that's something you really want to do, mostly for Army.

Yes what Nontrad said. You won't be doing combat training, I'm sure there are rare circumstances where a doctor has done something like this but typically no. You will still be expected to maintain military standards, PT, keep your hair in regs, don't get fat and out of shape. You'll have to go to meetings upon meetings, upon meetings, to talk about other meetings and plan other meetings. You'll start as an O-3 and promote accordingly depending on how long you stay in and other factors. If you do plan to stay in beyond initial commitment, you'll very likely have to go to other military specific schooling. For Air Force there is further educations such as Air War College (some of these are required before you advance to certain ranks). You'll have a ridiculous amount of computer based trainings that you'll be required to keep up to date. You'll be an officer in the military and be expected to conduct yourself as one. Your purpose is to keep military members healthy enough to perform their duties for the military whatever branch you're in. If you go into something like flight medicine you'll be required to do some other trainings like SERE training (survive, evasion, resist, escape?) where it's simulated that you're a POW or something like that, I don't know I never had to do this. Flight docs do get flight time as well which is pretty cool sounding. But it won't be a situation where you're like a civilian contractor for the military, you'll be active duty and have requirements and responsibilities pertaining to that. If you stay in for your initial commitment you'll very likely promote to O-4. If you stay in longer you'll eventually make O-5 but usually you need some further education to get to this point or higher such as O-6. I did my 4 year payback and peaced out ✌️living the dream on the civ side now 😎.

 

[Just Call Me Doc]

Echoing what a few others have said above, I think it will be important to have a solid idea of what your expectations for military service are. The honest truth is there is wide variations regarding what "traditional active duty activities" are depending on your job and the unit you're with, not just with MDs. The majority of the military is actually support and while they all learn basic military stuff including PT and how to "safely?" handle weapons, the day-to-day job is often more mundane. Occasionally, a person may get lucky, and is qualified, to get assigned to a "special" unit and gets in a little more of the more interesting training such as jump, dive, SERE, etc... But an MD's primary job is a doctor and will rarely be clearing rooms or jumping into missions. I've met plenty of young people (including enlisted soldiers/sailors/Marines) who find out the military isn't quite what they expected. I will say, if you have a strong desire to serve your country and will be happy enough even doing the most mundane duties such as seeing sick call on some remote base somewhere (always slave to the needs of the military), then HSPS may be for you. If you're looking for a specific experience then it is likely not the path for you and may be hating life for awhile. If you're stuck on the goal of doing the cool stuff then could consider trying for a Special Operations unit (have even heard of an MD dropping his qual to enlist as a Special Forces medic) but statistically will never make it and just be stuck in a job you may not enjoy until your contract ends. Not a very smart idea given you already have an A in hand for med school.

 

[magician7772222]

Thanks to everyone for your replies, I've decided that the HPSP isn't for me and am going to instead start researching the MSSP to see if that may be a better option. If anyone has any input or experience with that program based on what I wrote in my OP I'd be glad to hear what you have to say.

 

[DOswag]

Thanks to everyone for your replies, I've decided that the HPSP isn't for me and am going to instead start researching the MSSP to see if that may be a better option. If anyone has any input or experience with that program based on what I wrote in my OP I'd be glad to hear what you have to say.

It probably isn't the best option in most cases unless you know you want to serve the military and are ok with that. Financially it may seem like it makes sense on paper but rarely ends up working out that way because you'll make so much more money on the civ side (depending on specialty of course). Heck as a psychiatrist I make more than double now what I was making in the military and my last year in I made about $190K and I only work 4 days per week. There are retention bonuses that are specialty dependent but if you do anything other than primary care, you'll make much more on the civ side than you will being active duty.

 

[magician7772222]

It probably isn't the best option in most cases unless you know you want to serve the military and are ok with that. Financially it may seem like it makes sense on paper but rarely ends up working out that way because you'll make so much more money on the civ side (depending on specialty of course). Heck as a psychiatrist I make more than double now what I was making in the military and my last year in I made about $190K and I only work 4 days per week. There are retention bonuses that are specialty dependent but if you do anything other than primary care, you'll make much more on the civ side than you will being active duty.

Yeah, I already knew that the financial aspect wasnt worth it, I was mostly interested in the experience but it seems like I wouldn't be getting what I desire out of that either.

 

[Helpful Troll]

Out of high school I wanted to join the marines but didn't and ended up just going to college and now have an A to start med school next fall. My primary career goal is to become a physician however being able to fulfill my previous desire for experiencing the military on top of that would be nice as well.

Does the experience of this program resemble the experience of actually serving in say the army/navy/airforce during the required events during med school and then during your four years of actually working for the military after residency? Do you undergo the combat training that service members undergo? Do you go through bootcamp or something similar ect?

Also what is the experience of actually serving your 4 years after residency like? Is it more similar to working as a regular physician contracted by the military or is it a more unique experience where you are both a physician and a soldier?

Also if there are any other programs aside from HPSP that would better fit this niche I'd appreciate suggestions too.

In the Army you can pursue the Expert Field Medical Badge (EFMB) as a physician. I've seen a few Navy physicians with the badge too. Large Army bases generally have the EFMB assessment once per year.

 

[xffan624]

In the Army you can pursue the Expert Field Medical Badge (EFMB) as a physician. I've seen a few Navy physicians with the badge too. Large Army bases generally have the EFMB assessment once per year.

EFMB is pretty much a souped up PT test with a 12 mile ruck march. It's not going to satisfy what OP is looking for.

 

[Helpful Troll]

EFMB is pretty much a souped up PT test with a 12 mile ruck march. It's not going to satisfy what OP is looking for.

I don't know '... what OP is looking for." other than activities like "pt, range, ect", stated in their post.

In addition to the 12 mile foot march for EFMB they have to pass Day and Night Land Nav, qualify expert on their weapon, evacuation testing, TCCC lanes, and warrior skills stations. The warrior skills for EFMB are now combined with EIB/ESB testing. Preparing for EFMB might be what they're looking for.

The pass rate for EFMB is low overall (<30%) but fit and interested AMEDD officers likely have a higher pass rate.

You're right it may not satisfy the OP, as once passed they're finished. There are no ongoing requirements.

 

[magician7772222]

I don't know '... what OP is looking for." other than activities like "pt, range, ect", stated in their post.

In addition to the 12 mile foot march for EFMB they have to pass Day and Night Land Nav, qualify expert on their weapon, evacuation testing, TCCC lanes, and warrior skills stations. The warrior skills for EFMB are now combined with EIB/ESB testing. Preparing for EFMB might be what they're looking for.

The pass rate for EFMB is low overall (<30%) but fit and interested AMEDD officers likely have a higher pass rate.

You're right it may not satisfy the OP, as once passed they're finished. There are no ongoing requirements.

Well, I'm looking for is serving as an infantry rifleman or something similar. But from what I understand fulltime service under HPSP will be serving as a physician, reserves might be better suited to what I desire.

 

[Helpful Troll]

Well, I'm looking for is serving as an infantry rifleman or something similar. But from what I understand fulltime service under HPSP will be serving as a physician, reserves might be better suited to what I desire.

Good luck with that.

The window is closed to the infantry path even in the Army or Marine reserves/NG unless you defer your DO acceptance for a year. The reserve/NG scholarships that pay for med school won't allow you to enlist and complete infantry type basic or advanced training as a marine or soldier.

Why would the Navy or Army (AD/Reserve/NG) pay for your med school and allow you to serve in an infantry role?

 

[magician7772222]

Good luck with that.

The window is closed to the infantry path even in the Army or Marine reserves/NG unless you defer your DO acceptance for a year. The reserve/NG scholarships that pay for med school won't allow you to enlist and complete infantry type basic or advanced training as a marine or soldier.

Why would the Navy or Army (AD/Reserve/NG) pay for your med school and allow you to serve in an infantry role?

If I were to not take any scholarships would I be allowed to serve in an infantry role as either a reservist or NG after completing med school? Perhaps while completing residency? Or would they still force me into a non-infantry role because of my medical background?

 

[Nontrad_FL_LGBT]

You can always enlist as an infantryman. It would just be a really stupid idea to do so because you're going to be spending a ton of time in the field, likely impacting your training and future practice. This is just me, but I also feel like if you want to fight wars as a physician, it's a waste for you to be kicking in doors when you've spent $400k on learning to be a doctor. You could spend that energy better elsewhere.

Join a paintballing club or something dude.

 

[magician7772222]

You can always enlist as an infantryman. It would just be a really stupid idea to do so because you're going to be spending a ton of time in the field, likely impacting your training and future practice. This is just me, but I also feel like if you want to fight wars as a physician, it's a waste for you to be kicking in doors when you've spent $400k on learning to be a doctor. You could spend that energy better elsewhere.

Join a paintballing club or something dude.

How would reserves seriously impact my training/career? The time commitment is 1 weekend a month + 2 weeks of annual training, and the specialty I'm currently looking towards is pysch which doesnt seem to be too overbearing work schedule wise. I'm not trying to be a reservist ontop of being a surgeon or something like that.

 

[MTGas2B]

Have been in a Marine Corps reserve unit, as a Navy guy. Our Marines spent 1 weekend a month, three weeks in the field, plus schools they need for promotion and their MOS.

Depending on where they live relative to their unit, may need two more days each weekend for travel.
Unit may rotate on month long exercise instead of the two week period.

I'm sure every unit is different.

 

[Nontrad_FL_LGBT]

How would reserves seriously impact my training/career? The time commitment is 1 weekend a month + 2 weeks of annual training, and the specialty I'm currently looking towards is pysch which doesnt seem to be too overbearing work schedule wise. I'm not trying to be a reservist ontop of being a surgeon or something like that.

Most of my friends in the Army NG in combat arms spend significantly more time than that on drill status, more like a 3-4 day "weekend" and more like a month for AT plus any deployment / rotation / schools you'd want to go to. For example, Airborne is 3 weeks, Ranger is at the least 60-70 days assuming you don't repeat anything. Combat arms requires a large time commitment for a "reserve" duty status.

 

[magician7772222]

Most of my friends in the Army NG in combat arms spend significantly more time than that on drill status, more like a 3-4 day "weekend" and more like a month for AT plus any deployment / rotation / schools you'd want to go to. For example, Airborne is 3 weeks, Ranger is at the least 60-70 days assuming you don't repeat anything. Combat arms requires a large time commitment for a "reserve" duty status.

The schools youre referring to are one time trainings done after 10 weeks of basic right? I havent considered Ranger, I have mostly been thinking about regular infantry.

 

[Nontrad_FL_LGBT]

Infantry does a 24 +- 1-2 week OSUT as the initial entry training. The schools would be one time things yes. I feel like you're kind of ignoring the main point that on average for combat arms, you're spending 60ish days on drill status/AT per year which is still a lot. Worst case scenario, you get pulled for a deployment halfway through med school, or something like COVID happens again and you're put on state orders for months. I knew two people who were forced onto orders for months at a time during COVID to basically do menial labor around hospitals and nursing facilities due to lack of labor.

I would recommend either enlisting for three years AD go get this out of your system and apply later or just giving up on this dream and being okay with being a mil doc or not joining at all. Being infantry isn't really compatible with medical training or practice from a logistical standpoint.

 

[GreenHousePub]

The time commitment is 1 weekend a month + 2 weeks of annual training,

The greatest trick the reserves ever pulled

 

[magician7772222]

Infantry does a 24 +- 1-2 week OSUT as the initial entry training. The schools would be one time things yes. I feel like you're kind of ignoring the main point that on average for combat arms, you're spending 60ish days on drill status/AT per year which is still a lot. Worst case scenario, you get pulled for a deployment halfway through med school, or something like COVID happens again and you're put on state orders for months. I knew two people who were forced onto orders for months at a time during COVID to basically do menial labor around hospitals and nursing facilities due to lack of labor.

I would recommend either enlisting for three years AD go get this out of your system and apply later or just giving up on this dream and being okay with being a mil doc or not joining at all. Being infantry isn't really compatible with medical training or practice from a logistical standpoint.

Okay then I understand doing this during school is impossible, but is there any reason it wouldn't be feasible to do this during residency, especially if the residency isnt in a too taxing field.

 

[comp1]

Oh honestly. Look yes, residency got a lot lighter after the work hour restrictions went into place, but not THAT light. Residency is still both a full time job and full time school.

 

[magician7772222]

Oh honestly. Look yes, residency got a lot lighter after the work hour restrictions went into place, but not THAT light. Residency is still both a full time job and full time school.

Obviously I haven't been through residency, but from reading the anecdotes of psych residents it sounds doable. Would obviously like to hear the opinions of others though.

 

[CopaceticOne]

Obviously I haven't been through residency, but from reading the anecdotes of psych residents it sounds doable. Would obviously like to hear the opinions of others though.

Look - you need to pick one or the other right now. Stop trying to think you'll be able to do both concurrently. You will quickly become unliked by your program / co-residents when they have to keep covering for you / changing the schedule because of "mandatory" stuff. Add to it that you will end up using your vacation days for this activity because if you miss too much time you will need to extend residency.

It is a bad idea... VERY BAD.

Obviously you will make your own decision, but it is very clear from all the previous replies that you just aren't listening to the what people are saying.

 

[MTGas2B]

Obviously I haven't been through residency, but from reading the anecdotes of psych residents it sounds doable. Would obviously like to hear the opinions of others though.

Two more downsides.
Residency. Incompatible schedules. If your resvere comitments impact your ability to complete residency requirements, you'd have to extend residency. Ultimately there's a list of stuff you have to do per the ACGME. If you don't get it done because of military commitments, you'd need some kind of leave of absence if you can't do it by exhausting your vacation, which could extend your time in residency. This includes mobilization/deployment.

Practice. If you kept it up while in practice, big financial downside if you were mobilized. Psych isn't high roller, but losing your attending salary to mobilize as an E4 could be a financial disaster. I have seen this happen, in a different form. I've know nurses who stayed in the Navy Reserve as corpsmen. Didn't want to commission. Get called to mobilize, take a pay cut to mobilize.

 

[pgg]

@magician7772222 -

It's not unusual for someone to post here wanting to do what you're talking about. But you can't.

You just can't. There isn't a path to doing it as a physician, or even while a physician, in training or not, that won't make you a bad physician.

I know you don't want to be a bad physician.


There are RARE instances in which someone who was part of a special forces community leaves, goes to medical school, does a residency, and returns to one of those SF units and "does it all" but there are a million caveats to what they're doing and how they got there. You've honestly got better odds of being a physician astronaut.


If you want to be a rifleman, you need to enlist or OCS to the line, and be a rifleman. Do it for a while, then leave that world if you want, and go to medical school if you still want to. This is a perfectly reasonable and good path for a person to choose. Lots of people do it. Medicine is full of people who had other careers between undergrad and medical school. You're going to live a long time. You have time to do both. If you really want to, you can return to the military as a physician, but you won't be carrying a rifle around.


Do not ... DO NOT ... let yourself fall into the trap of thinking you can go to medical school, become a physician, and then do the rifleman thing. The best you can do there is get yourself attached to a combat arms unit in the Army or Marine Corps (as a Navy physician), where you'll take care of riflemen. You'll occasionally get to go to the range with them, maybe shoot some of their guns. Maybe spend some time in the field during training exercises (but not doing what they're doing). Ride around in tactical vehicles, fly on some helicopters. That stuff is fun and maybe it'll scratch the itch for you. But you're not going to be one of them, and pretending you are or that you can be will undermine your ability to be the doctor they actually need.

The risk - and I saw this repeatedly during my time in the Navy when I served with Marines - is becoming one of those doofus doctors who thinks he's at Adventure Summer Camp. In their efforts to play rifleman (and that's what they're doing: playing) they compromise their ability to be doctors, and they put a scarce and valuable resource (themselves) at unnecessary risk. You won't be "one of them" and you won't fit in. As a doctor you shouldn't be trying to fit in there.

Colonels and generals don't kick in doors or flank enemy machine gun nests with the privates and sergeants. Doctors don't either. (And if you're not willing or interested in doing those things then you're just playing with the idea of being a rifleman. Don't be a poser.)

Abandon this idea that you can go to medical school now and then do soldier stuff. You can't. If you try, it'll go badly.

 

[pgg]

Okay then I understand doing this during school is impossible, but is there any reason it wouldn't be feasible to do this during residency, especially if the residency isnt in a too taxing field.

As an aside, you shouldn't put too much confidence in your current idea of which residency you'll want to do.

The majority of pre-meds wind up in a field different than what they thought about when applying to medical school. This is normal. You haven't had any real exposure to different specialties yet. As a med student you'll rotate through many specialties, and you'll get a taste of what it's like to do that kind of work. You'll work closely with interns and residents and attendings in those fields, and be able to make a more informed choice about what you want to do.

I went into medical school thinking I'd be a neurologist or maybe infectious disease doctor. I wound up in anesthesiology.

My brother was a paramedic for 11 years, then went to medical school thinking he'd be an emergency medicine doc. And that's what he is now - so sometimes the plan stays the same.


The above is another risk with making long term commitments outside of medicine (e.g. military) while you're a pre-med. There's a high probability that you just don't know what you'll want from your medical career yet.

 

[afteranesthesia]

Obviously I haven't been through residency, but from reading the anecdotes of psych residents it sounds doable. Would obviously like to hear the opinions of others though.

I once laid on the ground in the rain in my uniform so I could do some mandatory shooting thing with a bunch of random enlisted and other line officers while missing the OR and actually doing cases...it was rainy and muddy. I shot a gun. I then went back to being an anesthesiologist the next day. There are chances you could do this too at an MTF near you. Seriously, though, your naivete is showing so damn hard. Not a soul knows anything before medical school, and there is still not a residency out there that could tolerate the resident who is also in the reserves. That's insane. I had to carry a handgun around in Afghanistan and figure out how to take it off while I pooped and not forget it. Is that what you want? Because that's basically it as a doctor unless you are the 0.0001% who does something random like a fighter pilot/physician.

 

[Apollyon]

Maybe this dude's plan is why he took the name "magician"? Because, short that, it's not likely (as an understatement).

 

[pgg]

I once laid on the ground in the rain in my uniform so I could do some mandatory shooting thing with a bunch of random enlisted and other line officers while missing the OR and actually doing cases.

LOL

One of the cool things I did as a Navy anesthesiologist was join the Navy Marksmanship team. Most years I was able to get no-cost TAD orders to the fleet, intersevice, and national matches. Quantico in May/June and Ohio in July are frequently rainy.

I spent some time laying on the ground in the rain in uniform shooting with a bunch of other people. Great times.