HS student questions

[davidw11]

better yet, majoring in a humanities-related topic gives you exposure to a lot of the critical interpretation/verbal reasoning skills that are heavily tested on the MCAT.

Well, that's what's so hard to decide. I think by majoring in Biology, it will always be a reminder of exactly why I'm in college to begin with. If I major in something like Political Science or similiar, it seems I may be so tempted to not try as hard to get into med schools.
It's like the end of the quarter in school. You should have worked hard all throughout the semester, but sometimes it just doesn't hit you until you're only a week or two away from the end of the semester. Ok...I had a point somewhere in that paragraph...forgot where

If I wanted to be in politics, why the heck would I major in Biology? If I want to be a doctor, why the heck would I major in Political Science?

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[thackl]

Be an engineer with a poly-sci minor, then you can do anything

 

[davidw11]

You see, I don't know what exactly else there is for me to do. There really isn't much else I can do with say a Pyschology major or anything. I guess I could get my Ph.D and become a licensed Phscholgist, but that seems just as tough. Getting a Ph.D is extremely difficult.

I'm thinking, if I major in Biology, that'll give me the best shot at getting into a Med School. There are good state med schools like Penn State that favor residents of their state alot. Just like in Indiana, you're guaranteed an interview at the med school with a 3.0 GPA. If you're not a resident, you must have a 3.8 or something around there for the same interview shots.

If all else fails and I can't get into Med School, then maybe I'll apply to law schools. They have less strict requirements. That is option 1.

Option 2: Major in Pyschology or Political Science, and at the same time take all the required science courses through electives. Also while minoring another thing such as Spanish or something non-science. Then, apply to med schools in my junior year on schedule. If it fails, then I'll apply to law schools. Again, Penn State has a great law school that highly favors state residents.
Heck, with a 3.0 GPA I could probably get in, considering I do good on the LSAT(Law school admission test). But, the LSAT is completely "easy" in my opinion. I'm a pretty good analytical thinker and when I took the practice LSAT online at princeton review, I didn't do bad. (Obviously I wouldn't get into a law school with my current score on it...obviously...but with 4 yrs of majoring in a very "thinking" major, it should be no problem.

You see, the thing is, I want to be a doctor, but I KNOW I'd do good in "thinking" majors such as Pyschology.(which is more interesting). What's peoples thoughts?

 

[sickofit]

you think you might want to be a future 'Phscholgist', yet you can't even SPELL 'Pyschology'

it's PSYCHOLOGY.


www.dictionary.com

 

[JonnieQuest]

Originally posted by davidw11

If all else fails and I can't get into Med School, then maybe I'll apply to law schools. They have less strict requirements. That is option 1.

Heck, with a 3.0 GPA I could probably get in, considering I do good on the LSAT(Law school admission test). But, the LSAT is completely "easy" in my opinion. I'm a pretty good analytical thinker and when I took the practice LSAT online at princeton review, I didn't do bad. (Obviously I wouldn't get into a law school with my current score on it...obviously...but with 4 yrs of majoring in a very "thinking" major, it should be no problem.

You see, the thing is, I want to be a doctor, but I KNOW I'd do good in "thinking" majors such as Pyschology.(which is more interesting). What's peoples thoughts?

hey kid, i like you...you're naive and it tickles me. okay, first of all, yes, it is easy to get into A law school but if you want to be respected and get good firm jobs, you need to go to top 20 schools. it's hard. and the practice LSAT online is damn easy. hell, i got a 38 on their practice mcat online. don't use that to gauge the "easiness" of a test.
i went to ucla, double majored in chem and polisci with a minor in neuro. it took me awhile but i loved it all...like i enjoyed doing my work (and try not to roll your eyes--get passionate about your major). don't do something just to increase your chances of med/law school. you'll do a lot better when you love the work.

like i said before, go to college and explore the different classes and see what you like. then decide.

 

[spumoni620]

Originally posted by davidw11
If I wanted to be in politics, why the heck would I major in Biology? If I want to be a doctor, why the heck would I major in Political Science?

See, this is where you (and a lot of entering college students) are naive. do all ppl who major in economics become economists? if i majored in finance and then went to work at an investment bank, am i going to be applying all the academia i learned in college? more likely than not, NO (this was so in my case)...the real world requires training in "practical" skills and often entails a steep learning curve--regardless of what your major was (unless, okay thackl, you were an engineer and did co-op programs in school ). the same applies to medicine. you think if you major in biology you'll be exposed to what it takes to be a physician? um, no--not only is the science you learn in med school often vastly different/more complex (check other threads in the allo forum for substantiation of this) but you also have to hone the personal, "practical" qualities of a physician (empathy, confidence, etc. etc.). not to mention clinical skills, which aren't necessarily correlated with how well you memorize metabolic pathways.

Originally posted by davidw11
I think by majoring in Biology, it will always be a reminder of exactly why I'm in college to begin with. If I major in something like Political Science or similiar, it seems I may be so tempted to not try as hard to get into med schools.

there's something troubling here. you need a major to "remind you" to become a physician? and just why are you in college to begin with? if there's a topic that speaks to your interests more than medicine such that by majoring in it you'd be compelled to make that a career instead of medicine....maybe then medicine isn't your calling.

more $.02. now i gotta get out and enjoy my friday night.

 

[davidw11]

top 20 schools.

What would those schools be? I would think Penn State would fall under that, but I don't know. Obviously harvard, yale, etc, would be tops, but what is some "practical" schools that are in the top 20.

there's something troubling here. you need a major to "remind you" to become a physician?

No, what I meant was that if I'm truely determined to become a physcian, I should set my sight on that and only that. Maybe that's a naive thought(you know us young people ), but it makes sense. Majoring in the sciences is the most common major for pre-med for a reason. It's all that great science courses that really help you out in med-school. Obviously med-school is the toughest, but you need an amazing background in science to do good in it(the schools even say so).

So why major in something so that is a fallback incase I don't get in? That would be a big relief if I get rejected, as then I have so many options. Then again, like I originally said, if I majored in Biology I could always go on to get my Master's degree. And if that still didn't work, there are options. Maybe a teacher, working for the government(FBI, CDC, etc), or anything where a college degree is needed. I could be a cop or anything. The fact that I would have a college degree regardless of the major would help immensely.

That is why I'm on this site...to get your opinions. So speak

 

[davidw11]

Ok, I looked up the top 20 law schools, but do you seriously need to get in one of those to "make it"? I mean, how many people really get into Ivy League law schools such as Harvard, U. of Penn, etc?

For example, my states law school is very good, and has graduated people like Tom Ridge, etc. He used to be our gov., still wish he was I'm not too favorable of our current gov...but anyways, back to the topic. Penn State has to be good enough, even though it is just a public non-ivy league school. Plus, I think their current profile is an average of a 3.3GPA. I would think that's much easier to obtain majoring in Political Science that getting a 3.5-3.8GPA in Biology. Not to mention, the LSAT is easier then MCATs, considering you went through a good liberal arts education.

So, I am torn between these two possible options. Please note that it's not the "prestige" or money being why I wan't to be in these two fields. I know it can come off that way, but it's seriously not. Being a doctor is a way to help people and save lives, while at the same time you can sort of do those things as a lawyer. Not to mention Civics was the only subject in school I got an A in(top of civics class), without even spending a second studying. It just came perfect to me.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

for law, the rank of your school is very important. there's a huge different between going to a top law school and going to your local third tier state school. if you want to be a family/criminal lawyer in your small town, struggling to get by, it doesn't matter that much, but if you want a top government or firm position, the rank of your school and your class rank are critical. to get into a top school, you need a high gpa and lsat score. right now, law schools are super-competitive because of the bad economy and the fact that you don't need any prerequisites to attend. consequently, laid-off people and unemployed new grads everywhere are applying.

the thing, though, is that i honestly think you're too young to have to think about these things. there are so many other things to do than be a doctor or lawyer, and you can't really know what you'd like in a career right now. go to college, and ignore some of the posts here that say you have to be a spectacular high school student heading to an ivy league school to become a doctor because those posters obviously lack perspective. take a variety of classes and find a major you enjoy. while in college, take some career aptitude tests such as the myers-briggs test and the strong interest inventory and try to mesh what you enjoy academically with your personality. above all, find a career that you'll enjoy, not something that seems prestigious or will please your parents.

 

[davidw11]

top law school and going to your local third tier state school.

Well, The Dickinson School of Law isn't that low ranked. Yes it's a public school of Penn State, but it's very good. Like I said, famous people have graduated from there, in fact many famous people there. Of course Yale will give me better oppurtinities, but how many people can get into Yale??? There aren't too many poor people that grew up rough making President of the US. The thing is, I love politics. It would be doing something I highly enjoy, whether being a lawyer, DEA agent, teacher, FBI agent, whatever.

 

[JonnieQuest]

so why do you need all this validation?

 

[Doctor Bagel]

even if a law school is second tier, it's not a good investment for most people. actually, if it's outside of the top 15, i probably wouldn't bother unless you have something else going for you like connections. all law schools have a few successful grads, but that's not the normal story. most grads have a ton of debt and mediocre earning potential. if you go to law school many years in the future, do your research and be super-critical before spending tons of money on a degree that might not get you anywhere.

again, though, it's way too early for you to be thinking about these things.

 

[mamadoc]

David, David, David.....

Honey, stop thinking so much. Follow your interests and things will sort themselves out eventually. You do not need to commit right now, this second, to biology vs. poli sci. That's what college is for - you get to take different classes and see what floats your boat. You don't need to know your major or even your career path at this point. It is okay to be entertaining lots of possibilities.

I must say, having been keeping track of this thread since you started it, that your most recent comments about civics and politics are the FIRST things you've said where you sound genuinely interested in the subject matter. Your expression of interest in biology is dutiful but not heartfelt.

When you get to college, the first thing you'll discover is that your college probably has area requirements ("core courses") to make sure that you don't only take science courses, or math courses, or English courses. Colleges are trying to make sure you get that taste of other things so that you don't box yourself in before you know what's there. So in your freshman year, go ahead and take one lab science - a medicine prerequisite that you think you can do very well in. But also take a class in politics or history. Then when you're choosing classes for your sophomore year, you'll have had enough of a taste of different things to know what you'd like to get more of. Maybe it'll be biology - who knows? But maybe you'll find the political science courses much more appealing.

You do NOT need to know yet what you are going to be when you grow up. You DO need to be open to the idea that you will explore lots of possibilities, and open to the notion that you could be very sure of something, only to change your mind later.

You do NOT need to have your whole college experience planned out in advance; in fact it's best if you don't.

Right now your thinking is very linear, which is understandable for someone of your age and experience. Know that college will give you chances to expand your thinking, to realize that life isn't an "either/or."

 

[Gleevec]

I actually ended up doing both biology and political science, so dont consider it an either or, you can do both as majors.

In any case, you will find that whatever school you attend, some departments have much better teaching than others (this is independent of the 'strength' of a department, which is oftentimes based on research reputation and is likely inversely proportional to the quality of teaching). You will quickly find out what majors are happier at whatever school you decide to attend, and you can adapt accordingly.

Your major doesnt matter as long as you fulfill your premed requirements, and it might be better not to think so far ahead about it-- as you are simply going to change your mind once you reach undergrad anyway and find out what classes are really like.

 

[acab]

I completely agree with Mamadoc. An essential quality of MD applicants is a "well-rounded" background. So don't really focus on a particular area of study right now. Asking questions and trying to find out more about different things are the way to go for now.

 

[somebody]

I know you probably won't believe it, but you really don't have to decide right now to be premed. I didn't decide to go to med school till my senior year of college, and I am now in my second year at a good school. I did have to take one year off, but big deal!

Also, you do not have to go to a top college to get into med school--I went to a state school with an ok reputation (as did many, many others). Would a top college it make it easier? Yes, but it's not essential.

And you don't have to major in biology! There are many people who were humanities majors in my class and they are doing just fine. Would a biology major make med school easier? Maybe a little at first, but sooner or later everything evens out, and a more well-rounded education might actually do you more good.

Just some thoughts--I do think it's good that you are exploring your options, but don't limit yourself too soon. Do what you are interested in--it will make you a much better person, and when the time comes, a much better med school applicant and doctor!

 

[doc05]

davidw11 -

the naivet? of your posts is not surprising. The fact of the matter is that your college education has little bearing on the job you hold in the future, so keep your options open.

Perhaps this arises when a high school student gets into a top college, and actually thinks that they've accomplished something; thinks they are ready to enter the real world - HA! Perhaps you've got friends who plan on studying engineering -- probably the only "practical" education you can get in college, if the degree is accredited.

The fact of the matter is that, as far as formal education goes, college is just a little more sophisticated than high school. You WON'T learn any practical skills, nor will you be particularly qualified to hold down a job. Keep in mind that this is true of just about any major.

And to be perfectly honest, majoring in biology does little to make you unique.

 

[Sonya]

just so you know, there are MD/JD programs which allow you to do a combined medical and law degree. I don't know much about them, because i have no interest in law.

Now, why can you take any major and suceed with medical school? I personally believe the only time you start learning things useful towards treatign patients is in your t hird and fourth year of medical school.

Do you really think learning the steps of the kreb cycle will help you treat a patient? no, it wont. and the rest of college education is more remote.
sonya

 

[Doctor Bagel]

but his high school grades don't really matter that much. all that matters is how he does in college, and you don't need to go to a top college to gain admission to medical school. my brother had a 3.0 in high school, yet he got into medical school and is now a doctor. i also know tons of people who attended average colleges who managed to get in. while lots of then were good students in high school, it had no affect on their applications. i think telling some high school kid to obsess about his grades and difficulty of classes to get into medical school is pushing it a bit.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

okay, sure, if he lacks the ability to be a good student when he gets to college and makes bad grades, that could keep him out of medical school. however, no doors are going to close because of his seemingly okay high school performance. honestly, i don't think he should be worrying about it right now because he'll have plenty of time to worry about it later. this reminds me of the interview with one of the south park creators (i can't remember which one) in "bowling for columbine". this guy stated that the true evilness of growing up in littleton was that you were always told that any small mistake you'd make would ruin your life forever, which you realize is total bs when you grow up and get the hell out of that demented world. life is long and ever-changing, and how you do in high school has so little to do with anything, so, yeah, i think it is pushing it to berate this kid for his high school performance.

 

[doc05]

Originally posted by exlawgrrl
okay, sure, if he lacks the ability to be a good student when he gets to college and makes bad grades, that could keep him out of medical school. however, no doors are going to close because of his seemingly okay high school performance. honestly, i don't think he should be worrying about it right now because he'll have plenty of time to worry about it later. this reminds me of the interview with one of the south park creators (i can't remember which one) in "bowling for columbine". this guy stated that the true evilness of growing up in littleton was that you were always told that any small mistake you'd make would ruin your life forever, which you realize is total bs when you grow up and get the hell out of that demented world. life is long and ever-changing, and how you do in high school has so little to do with anything, so, yeah, i think it is pushing it to berate this kid for his high school performance.

yes, there's no reason to berate this kid, but be realistic too. How many med students were "average" high school students? Very very few...and of the 2 possible reasons for not doing well in high school, only laziness is correctable. There ain't much you can do about intelligence.

 

[absolutezero]

post deleted

 

[Sweet Tea]

David--

It's great that you *think* you're interested in medicine now, but just be sure you don't close yourself off to other majors. You might get in there and decide that you just don't like it for whatever reason, or that it's not worth the sacrifice, and that's perfectly fine. Several people have mentioned this already, but being a science major will not give you a leg up on the MCAT. The MCAT is first a test of your thinking and reasoning skills, and secondarily a test of how well you know introductory-level science. My upper-level courses in comparative invertebrate anatomy and physiology and cellular biology did not help me at all for this test. Even my courses in human anatomy and physiology didn't help me. My friends who were English majors and history majors who were used to critical thinking and gleaning information from difficult text did very well. You can major in anything you want and still do very well (or very poorly) on the MCAT.

Medical school is fun, but it also sucks. I absolutely love it-- I have amazing classmates and I'm getting to learn incredible things. However, it is also very, very hard. Your social life disappears, and your friends and family become your second priority (maybe third depending on how much you value sleep). My class is made up of extremely intelligent people, and we are all working exceedingly hard to pass. Not to get As, to pass. My point is that you have to want to be here. It's just not worth it unless you know for certain that this is what you want to do. You have plenty of time ahead of you-- don't be afraid to explore other options while in college. There's a good possibility that you'll discover something you like even more.

Best of luck to you.

 

[davidw11]

Sorry, for some odd reason I didn't get an email when there was new posts, I had no idea the responses were so much.

I actually ended up doing both biology and political science, so dont consider it an either or, you can do both as majors.

Very interesting, but I heard that it's very difficult to do two majors. I think putting all effort in one major would pay off more. From what I've heard, job places don't get impressed by double majors. Of course there are a ton of benefits too.

Well the thing is, I was homeschooled for the last two years. So, my entire HS career so far was out of the classroom, by myself on a laptop doing schoolwork. I'm not used to the high school level of listening to a teacher and then taking a test. While I was homeschooled, I worked at my own pace, which sort of allowed me to excel at everything. Intead, I have to go through a "set" pace, being bored with stuff I know, and being left behind on concepts I don't get.

So that is what is explaining my current grades. I've been thrust from middle-school stuff to being a junior in a very "prep" high school. So, it's a huge adjustment. I'm actually surprised I was about to keep up with it. I agree my grades are lacking in several subjects, but I don't think that matters anyways from med school. I think by the time I do finally get in college, I'll have the whole "routine" down. Let me just say again, it's hugely different going from homeschool to high school. That was the whole reason I switched to this school to begin with. I didn't want to go from homeschool to college, where the grades really matter.

So, yeah I probably am just a average student. But in reality, don't "average" students get C's in all those classes and 1000 on the SAT's? I'm getting A's and B's and hopefully will get much better then 1000 on the SAT. I'm not really worrying about getting into college at all, in fact I almost laugh at that. There are just tons of colleges that I could easily get into. They're not Harvard or Yale, but they're not community or state colleges either.

But many of the pre-med students I know now are very smart and really excelled in everything. That is what gives me the worries, since I'm not all straight A's and get 1580's on the SAT. That kid ended up going to a college with a 3.5GPA average and 1270SAT average. If I do well on the SAT's, I could have a shot of going to that college too.

But the college I'm planning on going to at the moment has a 3.5GPA average and about 1100 SAT. So, that's not a bad one either.

My plans are to go to college, work my butt off non-stop to get the best grades(they say 3hrs of studying for every 1hr of class), then apply to med schools. Like I said earlier, I'll just go on to get my master's degree before giving up so easily if I don't get in. That'll give me another chance to get in. If that wouldn't work, I'll get a teaching job or something, and then reapply.

 

[davidw11]

oh...and another thing about the person that went on about how I shouldn't be taking the courses I am.

First, Communications is REQUIRED of all juniors.

Second, Gym is REQUIRED to graduate. I could have picked from regular gym or weight training. You need 2.0 credits, which equals taking the course every year.

Third, Drivers Ed is REQUIRED to graduate. It is required of all 10th graders, but since I didn't go to school then, I'm taking it now, in my junior year.

Any questions? You need a certain amount of credits from each area to graduate. There is nothing I can do about it. What would be the point of scrapping all those for academic subjects gain me anyways if I could?

Well, not sure if I mentioned this earlier...but I'm going on a college visitation trip in early November to Goshen. And I put down my area of interest as Biology. What that means is that I'll sit in some of those classes, as we arrive early Friday morning and classes are in session. So it will give me a chance to check them out. This college doesn't have a Political Science major, so that's the only area of interest at Goshen. Plus, they have a good reputation, as about 90% get accepted into med schools.

 

[docquaker]

david, i'll put in my two cents...

first of all, med schools don't care about what you did in high school. some ask for your sat scores, but that's it. the amcas app only asks for post-secondary (read: in college) experiences and awards. of course, if you took a college level course in high school, you need to send a transcript of that since you have to send transcripts from any school you've been enrolled in. oh and you can also list AP courses.

in college, most of your classes will be graded solely on two or three exams plus a final. it's not like high school where you have chapter tests and have multiple opportunities to improve your grade. since there are less tests, the tests cover more material so you need to stay on top of things. also, the classes are graded on a curve and achieving the mean usually correlates to a B-/C+, which really isn't that impressive to med schools.

so my advice to you is to figure out why you're having trouble in your classes, so that you can study more effectively in college. learn from your mistakes and try to improve your study skills.

seems like you're pretty set on Goshen College, so go there and study hard. it may not be as well known as some other colleges, but if you do well, the adcom's have to take notice. take the premed requirements, but i would encourage you to volunteer in a hospital and see for yourself whether medicine is right for you. it's not for everyone.

hope that helps a little. quick question...how'd you learn about SDN? just thought that you seem a little young to be on here...

 

[Sweet Tea]

excellent advice from docquaker.

 

[davidw11]

I search around...that's how I find everything I've been researching this career field for a long time, so I'm pretty well informed on a lot of areas.

seems like you're pretty set on Goshen College, so go there and study hard. it may not be as well known as some other colleges, but if you do well, the adcom's have to take notice.

Well, they have an excellent pre-med program, equal to any other private college. Except for Yale or harvard, nowhere else would be much better or have better acceptance rates to med school. Plus, it's a nice small school. That would give me oppurtunities for personalized research with my professors. And they local things set up with nearby hospitals, as the college is in a pretty small town. I think I could really build up a nice profile by the time applying to med schools come around.

I don't understand why everyone calls me young. Yeah I'm only 16, but things need to get planned out. Like I said earlier, I don't have parents paying for my college. I have to take a complete loan out for my education. I can't afford to mess around and switch majors "if I feel like it". That would set me back another $20,000. Plus, I need to have this figured out by Feb. of this coming year, as that's when I pick next years courses.

 

[musiclink213]

I don't understand why everyone calls me young. Yeah I'm only 16, but things need to get planned out. Like I said earlier, I don't have parents paying for my college. I have to take a complete loan out for my education. I can't afford to mess around and switch majors "if I feel like it". That would set me back another $20,000. Plus, I need to have this figured out by Feb. of this coming year, as that's when I pick next years courses.

OK, hold up a second. I dont' have my parents paying every cent for me either. In fact, the only reason i'm in a private college and not a city school (CUNY) is because i got a scholarship and a fair amount of financial aid. and switching majors is not going to set you back anything. You don't even really start taking classes for your major until you hit junior year. Before that, it's mostly about taking cores, so it won't matter what your major is.

About picking courses for next year, that is really not going to play a role in how well u do in school. I never took AP chemistry in high school, but i became a biochem major, and just got a 96 on a quant exam. In gen. chem, i was taking the honors section of it, and everybody else there had already taken AP chem, and thought the class would be a breeze. THe fact that they had that class really played no part in how well they did in the class. If they really knew it, they'd be exempt and not have to take it at all. besides, a lot of teh concepts, you dont' really cover in ap classes, so it really doesn't make that big a deal.

just don't stress about it, and it'll all work out.

 

[davidw11]

You don't even really start taking classes for your major until you hit junior year. Before that, it's mostly about taking cores, so it won't matter what your major is.

That's true for most majors, since you have a bunch of general education requirements. However, if you are in a pre-med program, they tend to re-arrange your schedule so you'll have all the necessary courses finished by the time you're ready for the MCAT and med school admissions. So it's not like you'll only have general courses in the first two years. If that was so, how would you get to explore the various areas to even see if Biology is what you want?

i got a scholarship and a fair amount of financial aid

Are your parents paying anything? Giving you $20 here and there? All that goes a long way. Did you get a car when you were 16 too? I am soon going to be 17, and I haven't had a job yet nor got a car. In fact, I didn't even get my permit yet. My mom didn't have time to drive me to jobs before I turned 16 so I would have money banked up to buy a car. It's easy once you get the car, then you can go anywhere to get a job. If you grow up in a small town away from everything, it's hard to find any jobs in walking distance.

 

[Sweet Tea]

David-- calm down, lots of people put themselves through school. I changed my major from music/biology to english and back to biology and still managed to graduate in 4 years. And I put myself through school, too. And before you start making assumptions, no I did not have a car through HS or into college. So chill.

I think people are getting frustrated because you come here asking for advice but already seem to have all the answers. People on this forum are incredibly helpful, but one thing I've learned is that you shouldn't ask questions unless you have an open mind for lots of honest answers. People may not always tell you what you want to hear, but at least they're giving you good, honest opinions.

 

[docquaker]

one thing david, be very wary when colleges boast about a 90% acceptance rate into medical school...sometimes, these numbers can be inflated because the schools "weed out" a lot of potential applicants either through hard introductory classes or by simply refusing to write letters of recommendation for applicants under a certain GPA (i've heard stories about this)

also, sorry to burst your bubble, but penn state medical school is a private school (although they do take 40% PA residents).

 

[Doctor Bagel]

changing your major won't necessarily delay your graduation. i switched my major twice in college and still graduated in four years. i'd recommend getting your basic science courses out of way early on, but then you'd have no problem switching to something like politics later on even in your junior year.

thinking that you need to know right now to avoid wasting money in college is wrong. take a variety of courses your first year and try to decide on a major by your sophomore year. that way, you'll have no problem graduating on time, unless, of course, you go to huge, overcrowded state school where you can't get into the courses you need (supposedly a big problem at places like the university of texas).

 

[musiclink213]

That's true for most majors, since you have a bunch of general education requirements. However, if you are in a pre-med program, they tend to re-arrange your schedule so you'll have all the necessary courses finished by the time you're ready for the MCAT and med school admissions. So it's not like you'll only have general courses in the first two years. If that was so, how would you get to explore the various areas to even see if Biology is what you want?

are u speaking from experience or just what all your friends tell you? because me, and just about everyone else on this board are currently in, or finished a pre-med education. there are no required classes to take the MCAT. in order to be "prepared" for it, u need the bio, chem and physics. But even if you wind up not going to med school, you can always count those towards elective credit or make a minor in something. most schools require at least a semester of a science, and if you have ever had a general interest, u take the more advanced science to see if that's what you want. maybe my school is just unique, but i have been taking basically only cores, save for the intro bio, gen and O-chem my first 2 years, and the last 2, we start cramming in the required classes, cause it makes scheduling easier, and gives you a better prespective on understanding abstract concepts once u have finished the cores (thats what they tell us anyway.)

Are your parents paying anything? Giving you $20 here and there? All that goes a long way. Did you get a car when you were 16 too? I am soon going to be 17, and I haven't had a job yet nor got a car. In fact, I didn't even get my permit yet. My mom didn't have time to drive me to jobs before I turned 16 so I would have money banked up to buy a car. It's easy once you get the car, then you can go anywhere to get a job. If you grow up in a small town away from everything, it's hard to find any jobs in walking distance.

First off, you're assuming you know me, when you really don't. first of all, i do not get a 20 here and there as you like to say. that's what a bank account is for, one in which i save MY OWN money. When i need money, i head over to the bank and take out my money. Secondly, i did not get a car when i turned 16. i am 18, and i still don't have a car. if i want a car, i have to pay for it myself, which i am currently saving up to do.

my mother never drove me to jobs. fortunantly, i grew up in a city with a massive mass transit system, but even for you, there are other ways to get to a job if you need it (ever hear of carpooling?)

but here may be the most important piece of advice i could give you: just chill out a bit, stop assuming everyone is rich and has a mommy and a daddy that support them, and realize that there are all kinds of people, it's not just you in one category and the rest of the world in another. Also, you need to stop and have fun a bit. it's good to be determined, but it's one thing to be determined, and entirely another to be obsessed. if you really want to go to med school for the right reasons, than the other stuff (financial, background, whatever) doesn't matter.

sorry this was so long, i'll try to keep it short next time.

 

[doc05]

Originally posted by davidw11
I search around...that's how I find everything I've been researching this career field for a long time, so I'm pretty well informed on a lot of areas.

Well, they have an excellent pre-med program, equal to any other private college. Except for Yale or harvard, nowhere else would be much better or have better acceptance rates to med school. Plus, it's a nice small school. That would give me oppurtunities for personalized research with my professors. And they local things set up with nearby hospitals, as the college is in a pretty small town. I think I could really build up a nice profile by the time applying to med schools come around.

I don't understand why everyone calls me young. Yeah I'm only 16, but things need to get planned out. Like I said earlier, I don't have parents paying for my college. I have to take a complete loan out for my education. I can't afford to mess around and switch majors "if I feel like it". That would set me back another $20,000. Plus, I need to have this figured out by Feb. of this coming year, as that's when I pick next years courses.

Wow. It sounds like you are sincere, but seriously, david, you very uninformed.

My 1st suggestion is that you relax. If money is tight, what about a state school? A private school gets very pricey, and with a few rare exceptions, isn't worth the money.

We all are calling you young and na?ve because you are. You 16 -- so I guess you're in 10th grade? What's the rush to figure out your high school program? How much is there to decide, really? Just take the most difficult course in each discipline, plus PE. There is little wrong with switching majors, and as I've told you, there is very little difference between any 2 majors -- history versus biology, for example. Major courses typically only count for about 1/4 to 1/3 of the total courses required for the BA. So lighten up. You've got time to decide; perhaps you should wait until you've actually entered college.

 

[doc05]

Originally posted by davidw11
That's true for most majors, since you have a bunch of general education requirements. However, if you are in a pre-med program, they tend to re-arrange your schedule so you'll have all the necessary courses finished by the time you're ready for the MCAT and med school admissions. So it's not like you'll only have general courses in the first two years. If that was so, how would you get to explore the various areas to even see if Biology is what you want?

wrong again, kid. Pre-med is a bunch of crap, really. Everybody in college takes some math, some science, and some english. BY being "pre-med" you are basically adding a handful of additional courses; at about 1-2/semester, you'll be done by junior year. That will still leave plenty of time for more interesting studies, and maybe even a life.

 

[pud129]

David, you gotta just chill out and enjoy yourself. I'll echo what many people are saying here: get good grades, pick a college that is right for you, and just enjoy your high school life. You only get one shot at high school, so have a good time with it!

My situation: I took a couple honors classes in high school, no AP, got good grades, did the stuff I enjoyed (music, church, community service through fun organizations, hanging out with friends, sports), and got into a good liberal arts college. I repeated the same thing in college, while leaning a little bit more toward medically related stuff and shadowing, got involved with research, and now am starting to get acceptances to medical school. Main point: enjoy your life, do things you want to do, and do them well. Don't tailor your life to what you think people on ADCOMs are gonna want, cause then its not your life.

One thing you can start doing is reading good books about medicine. Doesn't take a lot of time/money/effort, and it'll help you start to learn about medicine. Do a search on these books, but some good ones are Complications by Atul Gawande and LEarning to play god by Robert Marion.
Anyway, just my two cents. Good luck David!

 

[musiclink213]

Do a search on these books, but some good ones are Complications by Atul Gawande and LEarning to play god by Robert Marion.

I read Complications. it was a good reading, and on sale for 25% OFF in the bookstore on campus. There was also some really sad, and funny stories in there.

 

[twinklz]

I feel the need to reiterate what Pud said. Make sure you do not tailor your life to what you think med schools want to see.

My pre med advisor has a great track record for getting people into medical school, and yet they all emerge cookie cutters of one another. You have all your life to be a doctor so don't force yourself to do strictly medically related stuff now. Plus, not fitting in to the "pre-med mold" makes for more interesting med school interviews, IMHO.

 

[davidw11]

You completely mis-took me.

First, I was saying that I want to get this stuff figured out so I know what good HS courses to take. There are some really good courses for pre-law, and some really good courses for pre-med. Although, I will admit I love "think" courses alot better then "know the answer, period" courses. Know what I'm saying? I would rather have test questions that don't have a specific answer.

Second, I was just saying my financial status. 90% of people in med school borrow money to pay for it. You know what I see? 10% that don't have to borrow a dime!! Hmm...either they're extremely lucky in getting $70/hr jobs at age 21, or their parents are paying for it. There is no other way. ( I do realize some get schlorships...not not enough to explain the difference).

Third, is everyone here saying they grew up extremely poor? If your parents made more then $17,000/yr, that's rich to me. I live with my mom only, and it's not above that. So even if you have two parents with crappy jobs, that's still at least $35-40,000 a year combined.

Maybe I am informed, but I get my answers from pre-med websites. Must be alot of misinformed webmasters then.

Basically, I am very open to opinions. Just don't attack anyone, I'm didn't. If you think I did, I apologize as it wasn't meant that way. I want to know what your thoughts regarding jobs and stuff is.

Is it easier to major in Biology and get into a med school, or easier to major in Political Science and get into a top 20 law school? Such as Harvard or Yale. I heard that law schools put a lot of strength on the LSAT, whereas MCAT's are just a factor. In many law schools, the LSAT is counted more then the GPA. I can prove that if you want. I didn't believe it when I first heard it.

 

[musiclink213]

Second, I was just saying my financial status. 90% of people in med school borrow money to pay for it. You know what I see? 10% that don't have to borrow a dime!! Hmm...either they're extremely lucky in getting $70/hr jobs at age 21, or their parents are paying for it. There is no other way. ( I do realize some get schlorships...not not enough to explain the difference).

OK, dude, chill. you gotta get over this whole, i have no money shpeel. a lot of people are in the same position as you. what do you want to do? banish the world of the wealthy? if you want to be a doctor, you're gonna be working and interacting with a lot of people with different backgrounds, some rich, some middle class, some poor, some complete jack-asses, some whatever. if you're gonna react to those people the same way you are reacting now, you're going to have a lot of problems. just deal with it, it'll make your life 30 times easier in the future.

Third, is everyone here saying they grew up extremely poor? If your parents made more then $17,000/yr, that's rich to me. I live with my mom only, and it's not above that. So even if you have two parents with crappy jobs, that's still at least $35-40,000 a year combined.

firrst off, did u ever realize that just because somebody makes 40,000 or even 50,000 a year does not make them well off? ya gotta see where they live. The cost of living in NYC is arguably much higher than some small town. i.e.--we HAVE to spend more money to get what we need. Also, there are families with many kids, having kids costs money. especially when they're all in college at the same time. everybody has problems, not just you.

Is it easier to major in Biology and get into a med school, or easier to major in Political Science and get into a top 20 law school? Such as Harvard or Yale. I heard that law schools put a lot of strength on the LSAT, whereas MCAT's are just a factor. In many law schools, the LSAT is counted more then the GPA. I can prove that if you want. I didn't believe it when I first heard it.

whatever you enjoy doing is going to be easier. it seems to me you only want to doctor or lawyer for the money. but guess what? it'll take a while until you actually get to keep the money (student loans anyone?) just do what you enjoy, the money will come, but by then, it won't really matter cause you'll love what you're doing, and you'd do it even if it weren't getting paid.

And yes, some people do work for the love of it. my dad did, he had a store in manhattan, and he loved going to work every day. if he could, he would still be working there, but he had to pay rent for hte store, and for our apartment, which in ny, is ridiculously high. now he works a job 9-5, monday to friday, as opposed to 8-7, mon-sat, more pay, and hates every second.

 

[davidw11]

Funny, you say:

"having kids cost money. Especially when they're in college at the same time".

Um...it would only cost more if the parents were paying anything. If they were all in college, then the parents should have the MOST money, not having to support them. But, my point wasn't to attack the wealthy. I'm just saying, it's a heck of alot easier to get somewhere when you come from a well-to-do family. It's a fact...ask any sociology professor. Is it just a coincidence President GW Bush became president? Was it that he was so super smart and hard worker that he got there? Or was it that from his father being able to send him to prep schools in HS, parents paying for Yale, and parents having tons of connections.

Clinton got where he was because he was super smart and earned it. Can I say the same for bush? BTW, I like republicans, I'm just saying...for him to beat Al Gore is still mind blowing.

 

[davidw11]

a lengthy diatribe on the injustices of societal social class?

My darn pre-law side of me kicks in at times The thing is, I'd rather talk about that then molecular structures of biatomic atoms. Wierd thing is, I never knew you had to go to a top 20 law school to be successful. Is that really true...or is it like saying you need to go to Harvard to get into med school...which isn't true.

I'm thinking about applying to NYU(New York University) for college, but I hear they are very selective. That's why I'm putting all my serious effort(like trips) into colleges I can actually get into.

You see, the thing is, our report cards are given only with A+, A-, A, B+, B, B-, etc. So, it's sort of unfair when it comes to calculating GPA, since a C equals a 2.0. That wouldn't be bad except that a 85% at my school is a 2.0. That sucks and seems unfair compared to people at other schools who get a 80%(with probably easier courses), and they get a 3.0. I don't think courses at my school are weighted, such as honors or AP.

Alright, I checked some more and this is currently what I have seen so far:

Honors Chemistry- 2.0
Drivers Ed- 4.0
Communications- 2.0
Computer Apps- 4.0
Weight Trn- 4.0
Spanish- 4.0

And the only reason those are 2.0 are because of the stupid grading scale. I have an 85 in both of those 2.0 subjects, which is so unfair. So my current GPA equals a 3.3. If it wasn't for that dumb grading scale, I'd have a 3.6. Are these really so horrible grades???

And can somebody answer something for me. Is it easier getting into any old med school, or into a top 20 law school? I know med schools are tougher to get into then law schools, but that much tougher?

 

[Elysium]

Man, you are all over the place. I thought you were going to your religious private school in PA that your church was paying for. How are you going to pay for NYU? Sure, it's a great school, but its hella expensive.

And from what I've been reading from you (and sadly I've read all these posts) I think your heart is indeed with the law profession. That chip on your shoulder about being "disadvantaged" could really work to your benefit in a law practice. Think of all the good you could do for others in your situation! The point is that you are 16 friggin' years old! A wee one! I didn't know I wanted to be a doctor until I was 26 and I had to go back to finish all my pre-med courses. And yes, even though my dad is a doctor and makes quite a bit more than $17,000 a year I'm still $38,000 in debt just from my post-bacc. So life sucks for everyone, kid. Don't get too bogged down with what you think you're supposed to do. Listen to your heart, take a lot of college classes, and spend as little money as possible.

As far as law schools: it's easier to get into any law school (by far) than any med school. It's harder to get into a top 20 law school, by far, but I don't think it's absolutely required to go to a top 20 to get a decent job. Have you checked out lawconnections.com (I think that's the URL???)? It has links to all the law schools. Check out their sites. Most top schools want GPAs of 3.5-3.8 and LSATs of 160+ (which is around 90%). THe good thing is that there are no prereqs.

From Univ of Texas Law, for example, the starting salary in private practice was $70,000. Not too shabby.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

in general, the most important factor for law school admission is the lsat. if you have a 4.0 from a top school and below 160 on your lsat, you're not getting into a top school. while you can do well, if you don't go to a top law school, it's much harder. if you look at the statistics for lower-ranked schools, you'll see that students have to pay upwards of $100k to get their jd to compete for $40k a year jobs, so the math just doesn't work out. if you don't go to a top law school, you must go to law school in the geographic region where you want to practice, and you must do really well there. like with everything in life, there are a few exceptions, but you're life as a lawyer is a lot harder if you don't go to a top school.

as for the post about the university of texas, ut is ranked 15th in the country, so it is a good law school. you can't compare the experiences of ut law grads with grads from lower ranked schools.

that being said, it's not something to worry about now. you might be able to get into a top law school, and you might not. i wouldn't lose sleep about it before i even graduated from high school.

 

[ducam]

**** kid, I admire all the planning you are doing and it does go a long way. (Hell I planned out my college courses for all four years) but stuff changes. There is no chance that you won't second guess yourself about medicine, about your college, about your major. That's what life is, dealing with all the crap that happens to our plans. But calm down, everyone here is trying to help, mind you in there own way, but it is help. I understand where you are coming from on the major thing, I go to school in CA and there is like a 30% four year grad rate, so the more time you spend in school the more money that is spent.

On the money topic, get off it. There is always someone richer and poorer. You can really start complaining about money when you have a job. It doesn't matter everyone has to suck it up and deal with the loans. If you are going so crazy about this money stuff and could see yourself in the military look at ROTC.

Side note: law school is by numbers only. almost nothing else matters you have the LSAT and the GPA and you'll be in a law school.

IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT THE HELL YOU MAJOR IN. I can't say this loud enough. actually it's better that you DON'T major in biology for med school or poli sci for law. Those schools like it when applicants have the balls to do what ever they want. I actually think music majors have the best chance of getting into med school according to the last stats I saw.

Any way, just do what you want. Don't worry about all this stuff until at least your freshman year. Have lots of fun. And i hope you are cool enough to go to your prom and have fun. Let loose (ie drink and have lots of sex) but don't get arrested! Good luck.

 

[davidw11]

Funny....I don't have a prom here Guess I can't be cool enough to go yet. Of course, I could always hook up with some hot cheerleader from another school...but I think there's a better chance getting into Yale with a 1.0GPA then that happening.

Let's see, what do you mean I"m all over the place? I'm just looking at colleges. I didn't say I was going to a college that my church was paying for. I'm going to a HS that's being paid for by the church, not college!! Heck, I'm on my own completely for college. I'm going to need to save a ton of money back from a senior year(if I get a job) just to afford to send in the application fees. I know there are waivers for that stuff, but it's rediciously low. For example, to get reduced lunch and stuff, you need to make under $14,000/yr. Well, we're above that so technically we don't get that stuff. We don't qualify for anything.

And, we don't have a new car(our car which we finally just got cost about $800), nor have a house mortgage, or a fancy apartment, or even a trailer. Or health insurance. There are alot of rich people that claim they don't have money, but that's because they have nice houses, new cars, etc. If life is so bad...file for bankruptcy and start over. Then you don't have past bills. But I'm not going on about this stuff, so don't mistake me.




I'm merely saying that I've seen over and over again "rich" kids changing their majors and fooling around in college way more then poor kids who have to finance everything theirselves. They realize that if they fail a class, they have to take another loan out for $1000 to retake the class.

Plus, I think Political Science is what I'd really love to do. Even if I don't get into Law School, I'd go for a graduate or even a Ph.D before giving up, since I would love to be a college teacher in that subject. I remember back to my civics class I had in middle school, it was just the best class. I liked the stuff, and scored an A without ever studying.

 

[musiclink213]

I'm merely saying that I've seen over and over again "rich" kids changing their majors and fooling around in college way more then poor kids who have to finance everything theirselves. They realize that if they fail a class, they have to take another loan out for $1000 to retake the class.

OK, first off, you are way too much into stereotyping. at my college, there are plenty of wealthy kids (i go to school out on long island) but that doesn't mean they fool around. almost none of them do fool around. they work hard for their grades, and plenty of them are also paying for themselves with loans and the like. they also don't have the luxury to fool around. if you want to spend your life doing nothing, you don't go to college. plain and simple.

secondly, it seems as if law is what you really want to do. especially considering you'd rather talk about it (or type as the case may be) than anything else relating to medecine or science. and although you don't have to be a science major to go to med school, you still have to like it, cause once you hit med school, you'll only be taking sciences.

on a side note, a friend of mine is pre-law, but he's a physics and math double major. apparently, they like to see that a person has the ability to think critically and abstractly.

 

[davidw11]

but that doesn't mean they fool around. almost none of them do fool around.

There is no stereotypes here, I'm merely stating what I see. Maybe you just go to a very good school. There really isn't much usefulness on this topic, so I'll just quit.

Now regarding pre-law, that is what I'd like to do more. However, I don't want to take something where I'll only get anywhere if I get into Harvard or Yale. I could understand if you want to be the president needing to get a good top-20 education, but for just a regular lawyer? I'm not talking about making millions a year, just average lawyer salaries of like $100,000. Which seems like a lot, but law schools cost more then med schools. Not to mention doctors make more, alot more.

 

[periodic]

Originally posted by davidw11
law schools cost more then med schools. Not to mention doctors make more, alot more.

med school definitely costs more. on a per year basis, the private med schools and law schools cost a similar amount, close to 45k-50k per year with expenses.

but med school is an additional year of tuition. not sure about the public/state school side of things. law schools also seem to give out more merit-based money.

on average, a doctor makes more than a lawyer, but there are probably more lawyers pushing into the high end of six figures than doctors.

average salaries vary pretty widely depending on what kind of medicine you practice also, ranging from 90k for something like family practice to close to 300k for some specialties.