Humanities forced in curriculum?

[Waldeinsamkeit]

A recent article has been released and seems to be making the rounds. The claim is that medical students who have more exposure to the humanities are more likely to be higher in empathy, "wisdom" (21 item scale), and less likely to burn out. I can seen this being true.

But they seem making a case for including humanities in medical school. It was more exclusively laid out in an article referenced from 2015: To Create Better Doctors, Cultivate Their Creative Side

To me, this seems way too far, and I was wondering if there is anything medical students can do to push back against this trend? A petition or a PAC or group or something? I took humanities in undergraduate, I didn't want my career to be in it. We are in school for so long as it is, why do we need another class? Why do we need to pay more money for this?

I think it is good for the schools to support artistic endeavors of their students. I actually really enjoy writing and art, but I do hate narrative medicine writing assignments foisted on me. I can't imagine living in a narrative writing assignment for an entire block. I think it is wrong to mandate students participation in them, or grade the students for it.

EDIT: I am not referring to things like bioethics, or cultural sensitivity. I meant classes like art, or music, or creative writing.

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[neoexile]

A recent article has been released and seems to be making the rounds. The claim is that medical students who have more exposure to the humanities are more likely to be higher in empathy, "wisdom" (21 item scale), and less likely to burn out. I can seen this being true.

But they seem making a case for including humanities in medical school. It was more exclusively laid out in an article referenced from 2015: To Create Better Doctors, Cultivate Their Creative Side

To me, this seems way too far, and I was wondering if there is anything medical students can do to push back against this trend? A petition or a PAC or group or something? I took humanities in undergraduate, I didn't want my career to be in it. We are in school for so long as it is, why do we need another class? Why do we need to pay more money for this?

I think it is good for the schools to support artistic endeavors of their students. I actually really enjoy writing and art, but I do hate narrative medicine writing assignments foisted on me. I can't imagine living in a narrative writing assignment for an entire block. I think it is wrong to mandate students participation in them, or grade the students for it.

I personally hate this idea. I would advocate for community service or volunteering in the curriculum.

 

[softball2344]

We have a humanities requirement in our curriculum and it's a huge waste of time and my tuition money

This is just another example of the disconnect between educators and the students they are supposed to be serving. It's not as infuriating as case-based learning though

 

[Pepe18]

.

 

[Anti-PD1]

I was science and humanities.

So how did we all allow the logical jump: humanities majors are more empathetic, therefore we should teach humanities to med students to increase empathy. I'm not stupid.

 

[Save a life]

When you say “humanities” if you are referring to classes such as ethics, public health, healthcare laws, research methods, and the art of being a doctor, then yes. Even if they require us to write essays. These are fundamental to clinical practice and step. Otherwise, probably not.

 

[W19]

A few schools right now are heading toward 1.5 year basic science instead of 2 years... Maybe someday the whole med school curriculum will be 3-year instead of 4. Cut out the useless crap.

 

[Pepe18]

.

 

[W19]

I'm in a 1.5yr curriculum. They cut out redundant medical knowledge. They keep the useless crap and leave it to us to schedule around it.

What is weird about that whole thing is that you keep seeing people in SDN arguing against a 3-year curriculum. Not sure why they keep arguing against something so obvious...

 

[DocFluffy]

If it's not going to be on the licencing exam, then no.

 

[softball2344]

.

 

[akuko2]

Get ready to cough up 1,500$ for STEP 2 CES (Clinical empathy skills) in 4 or 5 yrs...

 

[hmockingbird]

When you say “humanities” if you are referring to classes such as ethics, public health, healthcare laws, research methods, and the art of being a doctor, then yes. Even if they require us to write essays. These are fundamental to clinical practice and step. Otherwise, probably not.

Yeah we had an ethics class and it was useful/interesting. We also had Healers Art which was optional but most people did it. I liked some of it, but definitely think something like that should be optional.

 

[TypeADissection]

This sounds really stoopid. People don't become empathetic because you cram it down their throats. Cheers.

 

[Crayola227]

something like Principles of Clinical Medicine or Patient Centered Medicine or whatever, should be included

actually, doctors do become better doctors when they are taught things like the average person's reading level is at the 8th grade level

that doctor speak at the college level, whereas the average patient can only understand at the junior high level

that when you tell a patient that an SSRI has a 20% chance of causing sexual dysfunction, the majority interpret that to mean 20% of the time they try to engage in sex, not 80% of people have no problems on the medication

the list continues

no, not all med students know this

 

[Crayola227]

lecture at my school on addiction by a specialist:

"how many of you in this room think of addiction as a brain disease?"

class of over 100, only like 5 hands went up (mine was one)

the rest of the lecture used brain scans and the like to prove the point

 

[Crayola227]

a lot of med students come from backgrounds where they find it difficult to relate to the average American, who has very poor health literacy

I think all of these things need to be taught to improve how doctors relate and empathize with their patients

so many people really have no idea what it is to be poor, under-educated, come from dysfunctional and substance-abusing families, low health literacy, and how all those things impact health, how to work around them, and maintain empathy for the 23 yo IVDU heroin user on their 3rd heart valve replacement

 

[sunshinefl]

I think it’s important to include. However, this thread highlights what I’ve noticed about my classmates during our humanism lectures. The ones already aware/open/think it’s important are usually being told things they already know/would do. The ones who need the information think it’s dumb, don’t pay attention, and laugh at it afterwards.

 

[operaman]

I think humanities are vitally important to being a physician in ways that are nearly impossible to measure. I spent my life before medicine as an artist and I can say honestly that I probably use more every day of what I learned as an artist than what I learned in the first two years of medical school.

Do I think medical schools should teach this stuff? In general: heck no. They’re terrible at it! I have so many good ideas for himmanties work that would benefit students, but I can imagine medical school bastardizing it into some mandatory session complete with a list of objectives. I could get behind adding some “recommended” classes to the undergrad requirements. Faculty dedicated to teaching those courses will probably be better at it that’s some poor junior med school faculty who picks the short straw at the faculty meeting.

 

[ndafife]

I think the point in requiring an undergraduate degree is that students should be getting humanities as part of their education before even starting medical school. There were already so many lectures that had very little point the 1st 2 years of school, why add more.

 

[deleted480308]

Oh look, another well intentioned addition to an already cramped curriculum!

Boooooooo

 

[libertyyne]

We had a great session during orientation. We visited an art museum and then analyzed some of the famous works at the museum. It was an interesting experience and felt like it was an appropriate time to have the activity. Am i going to be a better Physician because of it? I sincerely doubt it.

 

[Nucleophile1]

I voted yes but I don't think it should be a block. I think it should be something naturally integrated in the "Doctoring" aspect of the 1st 2 years. I think my school does a good job on emphasizing the importance of empathy, patient friendly language, ethics, etc. I think that it's more effective to integrate it when appropriate rather than making it a whole course.

 

[Mass Effect]

What is weird about that whole thing is that you keep seeing people in SDN arguing against a 3-year curriculum. Not sure why they keep arguing against something so obvious...

There will never be a 3-year curriculum unless it's a fast-track where you choose your specialty prior to applying. There's just no way to continue to reduce the pre-clinical years any further while science and the intersection between healthcare and the law is growing every year. The material is growing, not scaling back.

We had a great session during orientation. We visited an art museum and then analyzed some of the famous works at the museum. It was an interesting experience and felt like it was an appropriate time to have the activity. Am i going to be a better Physician because of it? I sincerely doubt it.

A field trip to an art museum isn't humanities.

Humanities should be included. Many doctors are totally ignorant about anything non-science related. Like previous posters have said, there comes a time when basic literacy about your fellow human beings means something in providing care.

 

[EleanorAbernathyMD]

A recent article has been released and seems to be making the rounds. The claim is that medical students who have more exposure to the humanities are more likely to be higher in empathy, "wisdom" (21 item scale), and less likely to burn out. I can seen this being true.

But they seem making a case for including humanities in medical school. It was more exclusively laid out in an article referenced from 2015: To Create Better Doctors, Cultivate Their Creative Side

To me, this seems way too far, and I was wondering if there is anything medical students can do to push back against this trend? A petition or a PAC or group or something? I took humanities in undergraduate, I didn't want my career to be in it. We are in school for so long as it is, why do we need another class? Why do we need to pay more money for this?

I think it is good for the schools to support artistic endeavors of their students. I actually really enjoy writing and art, but I do hate narrative medicine writing assignments foisted on me. I can't imagine living in a narrative writing assignment for an entire block. I think it is wrong to mandate students participation in them, or grade the students for it.

Nice use of the word "foisted" to prove the point you are good to go on the writing and humanities front

 

[libertyyne]

There will never be a 3-year curriculum unless it's a fast-track where you choose your specialty prior to applying. There's just no way to continue to reduce the pre-clinical years any further while science and the intersection between healthcare and the law is growing every year. The material is growing, not scaling back.



A field trip to an art museum isn't humanities.

Humanities should be included. Many doctors are totally ignorant about anything non-science related. Like previous posters have said, there comes a time when basic literacy about your fellow human beings means something in providing care.

a Field trip to art museum is more humanities than my school had before. since you yourself have indicated that the amount of material that needs to be covered in medical school is growing, where is the evidence to support the implementation of more humanities in the curriculum? Anecdotally the "humanities" section of our doctoring class has lead to plenty of moans and no one really taking it seriously. I sincerely doubt shoehorning it into curricula will make a big difference. Maybe the more empathetic individuals are drawn towards humanities and it is not humanities that makes them more empathetic?

 

[Mass Effect]

a Field trip to art museum is more humanities than my school had before. since you yourself have indicated that the amount of material that needs to be covered in medical school is growing, where is the evidence to support its implementation if more humanities in the corriculum? Anecdotally the "humanities" section of our doctoring class has lead to plenty of moans and no one really taking it seriously. I sincerely doubt shoehorning it into corricula will make a big difference. Maybe the more empathetic individuals are drawn towards humanities and it is not humanities that makes them more empathetic?

Once you get out of med school, you'll see the "evidence" first-hand when you see physicians hitting the wards with nothing but a science background. Understanding bioethics, healthcare law (beyond the basics of HIPAA), cultural references and sensitivity are all important in daily patient interactions.

 

[mistafab]

The problem with humanities courses is that the people who learned those lessons in real life already don’t get helped by the courses. The students that need the help never “get it,” and end up blowing a hundred at the bar right after.

Edit: So to be clear, I think it is well intentioned and ineffective. The perfect maelstrom of “waste of time” combined with “teachers feeling good.”

 

[libertyyne]

Once you get out of med school, you'll see the "evidence" first-hand when you see physicians hitting the wards with nothing but a science background. Understanding bioethics, healthcare law (beyond the basics of HIPAA), cultural references and sensitivity are all important in daily patient interactions.

I have seen it. I worked in a hospital setting for sometime before medical school and I would joke with my colleagues that most Docs are somewhere on the spectrum. But that being said, implementing humanities in medical school doesn't seem like it would solve that. We select for highest MCATS and GPAs vs other characteristics and this has more to do with what we see on the floors. A personal observation of mine is that DO's tend to be more relatable and personable vs MDs I am unsure if it is their training or selection that contributes to this phenomenon. The point I am trying to make is that forcing humanities into the curricula is likely to result in med students anki-ing crib notes of crime and punishment to pass the test and move on.

 

[W19]

I have seen it. I worked in a hospital setting for sometime before medical school and I would joke with my colleagues that most Docs are somewhere on the spectrum. But that being said, implementing humanities in medical school doesn't seem like it would solve that. We select for highest MCATS and GPAs vs other characteristics and this has more to do with what we see on the floors. A personal observation of mine is that DO's tend to be more relatable and personable vs MDs I am unsure if it is their training or selection that contributes to this phenomenon. The point I am trying to make is that forcing humanities into the curricula is likely to result in med students anki-ing crib notes of crime and punishment to pass the test and move on.

I guess we should pay the price when adcoms fail to do their job.

 

[Pepe18]

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[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

There will never be a 3-year curriculum unless it's a fast-track where you choose your specialty prior to applying.

Accelerated Three-Year MD at NYU School of Medicine | NYU Langone Health

 

[Mass Effect]

Accelerated Three-Year MD at NYU School of Medicine | NYU Langone Health

Yes, thank you for proving my point. That was nice of you.

What I said: "There will never be a 3-year curriculum unless it's a fast-track where you choose your specialty prior to applying."

What the program you cited says: "NYU School of Medicine’s three-year MD degree pathway is designed to provide students who have already decided on a career path accelerated entry into a variety of medical specialties."

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Yes, thank you for proving my point. That was nice of you.

What I said: "There will never be a 3-year curriculum unless it's a fast-track where you choose your specialty prior to applying."

What the program you cited says: "NYU School of Medicine’s three-year MD degree pathway is designed to provide students who have already decided on a career path accelerated entry into a variety of medical specialties."

It also says you can opt in during third year. So you know, after you’ve applied, matriculated, and gotten some clinical exposure.

Edited to not sound mean.

 

[Mass Effect]

Clearly you didn’t read far enough. It also says you can opt in during third year. So you know, after you’ve applied, matriculated, and gotten some clinical exposure.

Actually, it says before third year, not during. Anyway, it's not a 3-year curriculum. It's a fast-track, which is what I said. They cut things out for people who are dead set on a specialty, which was my point. The MD curriculum itself is 4 years because it provides exposure to ALL fields of medicine. The only way to cut it down is to make people decide what they want to do and tailor that education to that. Sounds great in theory until you read about all the people who thought they wanted one thing and ended up matching into another.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Actually, it says before third year, not during.

• Matriculated students in our MD program can opt in to the three-year pathway during their first year of training or halfway through the clerkship year.

Depending on how you read that, halfway through the clerkship year is either the beginning of third year (after 6 months of clerkships) or halfway through third year. Either way, it’s after you have applied, matriculated, and had at least 6 months of rotations.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

So yeah. They exist. Definitely not the point of this thread though. Moving on before we get warned to stay on topic.

 

[intubesteak]

I think the type of person to willingly take humanities classes is probably more the empathetic/thoughtful type to begin with. I don't think its something you can teach at this stage of the game. Plus, if you did this, the people who the class is supposed to benefit will be ANKI-ing the whole time anyways...

 

[softball2344]

Accelerated Three-Year MD at NYU School of Medicine | NYU Langone Health

If my school offered that I'd takeout in a heartbeat they are so lucky

edit: never mind I didn't realize that they have to stay at NYU during residency...

 

[Waldeinsamkeit]

I'm in painting and drumming (so that's not what is referred to in my case), but we have healthcare laws, research methods, etc also in our curriculum and it's just way too much. None of us study it and then because like 70% of the class fails those questions they give them back to us its a silly cycle of waste

Painting & Drumming in medical school? Are you ****ting me?

 

[Waldeinsamkeit]

a lot of med students come from backgrounds where they find it difficult to relate to the average American, who has very poor health literacy

I think all of these things need to be taught to improve how doctors relate and empathize with their patients

so many people really have no idea what it is to be poor, under-educated, come from dysfunctional and substance-abusing families, low health literacy, and how all those things impact health, how to work around them, and maintain empathy for the 23 yo IVDU heroin user on their 3rd heart valve replacement

And you believe teaching them how to paint will solve this problem?

 

[softball2344]

Painting & Drumming in medical school? Are you ****ting me?

unfortunately not... it's not a huge time sink tbh just very annoying on principle

When you say “humanities” if you are referring to classes such as ethics, public health, healthcare laws, research methods, and the art of being a doctor, then yes. Even if they require us to write essays. These are fundamental to clinical practice and step. Otherwise, probably not.

they should just require a medical ethics class or public health for premeds, not make a very stressful time in most people's lives even more stressful

 

[Mass Effect]

Depending on how you read that, halfway through the clerkship year is either the beginning of third year (after 6 months of clerkships) or halfway through third year. Either way, it’s after you have applied, matriculated, and had at least 6 months of rotations.

The text is pretty clear. It says if you want to fast-track (which means you're in the regular curriculum), you have to do it before third year.

So yeah. They exist. Definitely not the point of this thread though. Moving on before we get warned to stay on topic.

LOL, nice try, but nope. They don't, unless you're fast-tracking. Thanks for derailing the thread only to draw the same conclusion I made hours ago.

 

[Redpancreas]

Medical education is terribly one-dimensional and favors the ones who are good at it while stifling the creative potential and analytical skills of so many...but the fact remains that it’s medical school and learning basic medicine takes 4 years already. If you put non-medical crap in the curriculum, people won’t pay attention to it and it’ll create busy work because standards are ridiculously low and it will just add unneeded stress to medical school which the LCME fails to understand. Plus the people who facilitate/grade these humanity exercises things are hardly qualified.

 

[intubesteak]

Medical education is terribly one-dimensional and favors the ones who are good at it while stifling the creative potential and analytical skills of so many...but the fact remains that it’s medical school and learning basic medicine takes 4 years already. If you put non-medical crap in the curriculum, people won’t pay attention to it and it’ll create busy work because standards are ridiculously low and it will just add unneeded stress to medical school which the LCME fails to understand. Plus the people who facilitate/grade these humanity exercises things are hardly qualified.

agree 100%. We had some crap interdisciplinary thing run by nurses and pharmacists and it turned into a "why we don't need the big bad doctors" class. Same thing happened to my friend at another school. Waste of time and caused me to feel angst towards some people in those professions when I had none before. These ideas are often great in theory, but terrible in practice.

 

[trapperjohn4077]

The total amount of medical science knowledge that exists is increasing at an enormous rate. In the first 2 years, medical schools should focus on what they do best: teaching medical science. Schools that add humanities classes waste medical students' time, time that could be spent learning medicine and understanding medical research.

I am *not* saying that an understanding of humanities is unimportant for physicians, what I am saying is this: If you want physicians who are more familiar with humanities, then change your admissions process, don't change the curriculum. Pre-meds have way more time to learn about art, history, literature, cooking, or music than medical students. If you value those learning experiences, let students learn it as a premed and only accept students who have demonstrated that learning. Then the medical school can focus on teaching medicine.

 

[giantswing]

This is a bunch of BS. Who says Drs. aren't empathetic? I've seen nurses be way ruder to any patient (and co worker) than I am ever allowed to be.

Also, if they're concerned about empathy and burn out, they should look at our work hours. By the end of a q3day call rotation, I have no empathy for anyone who doesn't have something for me to eat and somewhere for me to sleep.

 

[intubesteak]

This is a bunch of BS. Who says Drs. aren't empathetic? I've seen nurses be way ruder to any patient (and co worker) than I am ever allowed to be.

Also, if they're concerned about empathy and burn out, they should look at our work hours. By the end of a q3day call rotation, I have no empathy for anyone who doesn't have something for me to eat and somewhere for me to sleep.

You are so right. Its hard to give a crap when you're exhausted and burnt out. No amount of humanities can change that.

 

[Waldeinsamkeit]

agree 100%. We had some crap interdisciplinary thing run by nurses and pharmacists and it turned into a "why we don't need the big bad doctors" class. Same thing happened to my friend at another school. Waste of time and caused me to feel angst towards some people in those professions when I had none before. These ideas are often great in theory, but terrible in practice.

I had those too, and they are complete bull****. It makes me hate nurses so much, because in the classes thing they push this "doctors and nurse togetherness model" and then their lobby goes out and tries to pass legislation to make them able to practice independently. It is all bull****.