I am ORM. Bad idea to mention this in PS?

[jq_dr]

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I am writing and editing my PS at the moment. In it, I discuss how I realized how much I learned to value my family's mother language and use it to connect with patients. The language that i speak would indicate that I am ORM. I just saw an old thread where someone said they would advise against including any mention of being an ORM applicant in the personal statement. Is this true? Would my current PS hurt my chances? I already have indicated that I am Asian when I filled out the demographics portion of the primary app. Please help!

 

[meronebib]

What, no, of course this is not a problem. Schools know you are ORM. Being an ORM does not put you at a disadvantage for admissions (hint hint, most matriculants are ORM, hence the “over-represented” part). You should not be ashamed of being ORM. Please don’t worry about this. It’s a good thing that you’re using another language to communicate with patients and provide them comfort. Most people in this country only speak one language. That aspect of your application is a positive that should be highlighted, and it makes you “diverse.” Embrace it!

 

[capriccio]

Not a big deal, especially since your heritage sounds like it's been a significant part of your experience. They already know you're Asian anyways lol, so no point in trying to hide it. If it reassures you to know, I explicitly talked about some aspects of my Asian heritage in some of my secondaries/interviews and it never hurt me.

 

[gyngyn]

All languages are valuable.

 

[deleted965528]

I have a similar question. Since there are so many ORM applicants, would using this as one of a few diversity factors even be taken seriously? Since there are so many applicants who may have the same skills with similar background or stories, would it be equivalent of putting "dean's honor list" like every third applicant? I meant for my culture to be one of three important themes of my application, especially because I did a lot of volunteer work with under-served Asian populations using my language and grew up in a similar environment.

 

[gyngyn]

I have a similar question. Since there are so many ORM applicants, would using this as one of a few diversity factors even be taken seriously? Since there are so many applicants who may have the same skills with similar background or stories, would it be equivalent of putting "dean's honor list" like every third applicant? I meant for my culture to be one of three important themes of my application, especially because I did a lot of volunteer work with under-served Asian populations using my language and grew up in a similar environment.

All service is valuable.

 

[907914]

I have a similar question. Since there are so many ORM applicants, would using this as one of a few diversity factors even be taken seriously? Since there are so many applicants who may have the same skills with similar background or stories, would it be equivalent of putting "dean's honor list" like every third applicant? I meant for my culture to be one of three important themes of my application, especially because I did a lot of volunteer work with under-served Asian populations using my language and grew up in a similar environment.

I would spin it in such a way that your diversity is not highlighted by who you are but by your willingness and desire to help others like you? Maybe?

 

[capriccio]

I have a similar question. Since there are so many ORM applicants, would using this as one of a few diversity factors even be taken seriously? Since there are so many applicants who may have the same skills with similar background or stories, would it be equivalent of putting "dean's honor list" like every third applicant? I meant for my culture to be one of three important themes of my application, especially because I did a lot of volunteer work with under-served Asian populations using my language and grew up in a similar environment.

IMO talking about being Asian (or any race really) is only problem when it's being brought up for the sole purpose of saying "I'm not white therefore I'm diverse." If there is a meaningful experience involved, it deserves to be on the application.

 

[907914]

IMO talking about being Asian (or any race really) is only problem when it's being brought up for the sole purpose of saying "I'm not white therefore I'm diverse." If there is a meaningful experience involved, it deserves to be on the application.

Believe it or not, for URMs who have sufficient stats, this strategy tends to be pretty effective.

EDit: Except it is not "I am not white" it is "I am this group." It is better to highlight what you are that is beneficial as opposed to what you are not that is detrimental.

 

[deleted965528]

I would spin it in such a way that your diversity is not highlighted by who you are but by your willingness and desire to help others like you? Maybe?

Was thinking about that, thanks!

IMO talking about being Asian (or any race really) is only problem when it's being brought up for the sole purpose of saying "I'm not white therefore I'm diverse." If there is a meaningful experience involved, it deserves to be on the application.

I agree. I was just wondering if having the experience tied to being ORM loses its value due to the number of applicants who may say similar things (like what happened with "I like science and I want to help people")

 

[LizzyM]

Language skils are very important, particularly if you are fluent and if there are a large number of non-English speaking people using that language in the area near the medical school. Being able to communicate in the patients' language and having insights into their culture is a tremendous skill to have.

 

[TheIllusionist]

What, no, of course this is not a problem. Schools know you are ORM. Being an ORM does not put you at a disadvantage for admissions (hint hint, most matriculants are ORM, hence the “over-represented” part). You should not be ashamed of being ORM. Please don’t worry about this. It’s a good thing that you’re using another language to communicate with patients and provide them comfort. Most people in this country only speak one language. That aspect of your application is a positive that should be highlighted, and it makes you “diverse.” Embrace it!

half truth. yeah should include it. but ORMs do have a disadvantage. Look at gpa mcat tables publically available. Asians would be even more overrepresented in race blind admissions

 

[chlorocruorin]

There’s literally no disadvantage for being an ORM. Look at the population of the ORMs in the US along with the population that are in med school/doctors. Actually, The AAMC data table shows that Blacks and Latinos have the lowest percentage of getting an MD acceptance

..plus if you really think putting down a language will deter your chances of gaining an admissions offer then that speaks more on your confidence of your application.

 

[TheIllusionist]

There’s literally no disadvantage for being an ORM. Look at the population of the ORMs in the US along with the population that are in med school/doctors. Actually, The AAMC data table shows that Blacks and Latinos have the lowest percentage of getting an MD acceptance

..plus if you really think putting down a language will deter your chances of gaining an admissions offer then that speaks more on your confidence of your application.

not when adjusting for mcat and gpa...

3.6 to 3.79 gpa 30-32 mcat admit rates by race

hispanic 83.8 percent

blacks 93.7 percent

asians 57.7 percent

whites 63 percent

FACTS

Data on U.S. medical school applicants, matriculants, enrollments, and graduates; as well as data on MD-PhD students, residency, and residency applicants.

www.aamc.org

All publically available

People can defend this with pro social engineering narrative. But I laugh at those who deny reality

 

[JUNGLEKING]

There’s literally no disadvantage for being an ORM. Look at the population of the ORMs in the US along with the population that are in med school/doctors. Actually, The AAMC data table shows that Blacks and Latinos have the lowest percentage of getting an MD acceptance

..plus if you really think putting down a language will deter your chances of gaining an admissions offer then that speaks more on your confidence of your application.

Come on man, be intellectually honest when making comparisons. You don't compare just race to race, compare stats too. The stats speak for themselves, leave it at that.

 

[Isoval]

I hate that we call non-underrepresented groups ORMs, or, literally, "over-represented in medicine". It implies there's a disadvantage for being one.

Your application will not get an express trip to the garbage bin because of your race.
Your application will largely not be looked at differently because of your race.
If you happened to be underrepresented, you may or may not be cut some slack in some areas by some reviewers.
Being a certain race cannot harm you.

If you have a home-field advantage with certain patient groups, you should be screaming about it from the rooftops. This speaks to your humanistic abilities, one of the most important thing that's required as a doctor.

In less words, I think it would be really, really, really stupid not to talk about this if you feel it's a formative experience.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Your application will largely not be looked at differently because of your race.

Well this is just a falsehood.

 

[deleted480308]

What, no, of course this is not a problem. Schools know you are ORM. Being an ORM does not put you at a disadvantage for admissions (hint hint, most matriculants are ORM, hence the “over-represented” part). You should not be ashamed of being ORM. Please don’t worry about this. It’s a good thing that you’re using another language to communicate with patients and provide them comfort. Most people in this country only speak one language. That aspect of your application is a positive that should be highlighted, and it makes you “diverse.” Embrace it!

There’s literally no disadvantage for being an ORM. Look at the population of the ORMs in the US along with the population that are in med school/doctors. Actually, The AAMC data table shows that Blacks and Latinos have the lowest percentage of getting an MD acceptance

..plus if you really think putting down a language will deter your chances of gaining an admissions offer then that speaks more on your confidence of your application.

These posters are incorrect and either have not seen or do not understand the statistics

For any specific given mcat/gpa, the race of an applicant significantly changes their acceptance rates. It’s publicly posted data on this forum for years.

It doesn’t mean you should lie and you may not be able to hide but it does literally hurt your application. It sucks, sorry

 

[Instatewaiter]

Time to expound upon this with data. Were race to not impact how you are looked at by the admissions committee you wouldn't see massive differences in acceptance rates for a given set of stats.

Those who think race plays little role have either their not seen the data or have their head in the sand. The data tables are available publically but here are some highlights with acceptance rates.

Mcat 21 gpa 3.6-. White rate 7%, Asian 1.4%, black 34
Mcat 24 gpa 3.6-. White rate 22%, Asian 17%, black 75%- these are stats that wouldn't get you into most DO schools but very likely get you into an MD school if African american.
Mcat 27 gpa 3.6-. White rate 43% Asian 35%, black 86%

to have a above an 80% chance of acceptance you need a
36/3.6 if Asian (just under 80%)
3.6/3.6 if white (just over 80%)
27/3.4 if black (just over 80%)

 

[chlorocruorin]

not when adjusting for mcat and gpa...

3.6 to 3.79 gpa 30-32 mcat admit rates by race

hispanic 83.8 percent

blacks 93.7 percent

asians 57.7 percent

whites 63 percent

FACTS

Data on U.S. medical school applicants, matriculants, enrollments, and graduates; as well as data on MD-PhD students, residency, and residency applicants.

www.aamc.org

All publically available

People can defend this with pro social engineering narrative. But I laugh at those who deny reality

You’re looking at the percentage without looking at the actual number of people applying. You’e not making any effort to put those percentages in context. Is 8/10 more likely than 58/100? Yeah 80% is higher than 58%, but the total aggregate number implies that that there are MORE ORMs with that mcat/gpa in med school. Because if I just told you (in which I did) to look at the overall acceptance rate for each race, URMs have the lowest, You’ll probably say “oh there are less URMs applying anyway that’s why” well use that same knowledge when it comes to the individual mcat/gpa.

If person A ran a mile on a track with track spikes in 5 minutes and person B ran a mile in sand with no shoes in 5:30 minutes. Which is more impressive?

If track coaches all over noticed that person B actually is good in track and picked more of them up DESPITE having a lower time then is person A at a DISADVANTAGE?????? HES RUNNING ON A TRACK WITH TRACK SPIKES???

 

[chlorocruorin]

Y’all are literally like okay 4/5 = 80% vs 2,345/4,324 = ~50%

Therefore it’s much harder for Asians to get in.

Do you not have any awareness on how many applicants are Asians/ORMs?

Look up the ORMs percentage in the country, and look up their percentage of medical school/ doctors..... Yeah man they are at a HUGE disadvantage

I’ll save y’all the work:
Via US census: Asians make up 5% of the country yet account for 22% of current medical students per AAMC

Blacks make up 13% of the US yet account for less than 7% of applicants and 7% for current students.

Wow that’s a huge disadvantage for Asians

 

[chlorocruorin]

Last point I’ll make is you all are forgetting why ORMs are considered ORMs and the same for URMs. Hint it’s not because ORMs are smarter.

It’s because of SES, poverty, institutional racism, poverty, education... etc


For those that wanna be in healthcare shouldn’t you be able to read past the numbers?

 

[deleted480308]

Y’all are literally like okay 4/5 = 80% vs 2,345/4,324 = ~50%

Therefore it’s much harder for Asians to get in.

Do you not have any awareness on how many applicants are Asians/ORMs?

Look up the ORMs percentage in the country, and look up their percentage of medical school/ doctors..... Yeah man they are at a HUGE disadvantage

I’ll save y’all the work:
Via US census: Asians make up 5% of the country yet account for 22% of current medical students per AAMC

Blacks make up 13% of the US yet account for less than 7% of applicants and 7% for current students.

Wow that’s a huge disadvantage for Asians

You truly don't understand the statistics here.

We 're not discussing if an asian person born in the country has higher odds from birth of becoming a doctor than anyone else born in the country of another race (they do have higher odds at that point)

We're discussing their current status. The time applications start, when gpa/mcat are decided. If 4 people show up (white/black/hispanic/asian) with a 3.4/510 the Asian applicant is less likely to get in.

You're trying to defend the race based admissions which isn't the point of the thread, the question was "does my race change my odds at this point".

It does. Literally

 

[chlorocruorin]

You truly don't understand the statistics here.

We 're not discussing if an asian person born in the country has higher odds from birth of becoming a doctor than anyone else born in the country of another race (they do have higher odds at that point)

We're discussing their current status. The time applications start, when gpa/mcat are decided. If 4 people show up (white/black/hispanic/asian) with a 3.4/510 the Asian applicant is less likely to get in.

You're trying to defend the race based admissions which isn't the point of the thread, the question was "does my race change my odds at this point".

It does. Literally

And I’m saying there is no inherent disadvantage of an ORM before he/she takes the mcat because of the higher SES, more education, less incarceration, less poverty than their URM counterpart. I see what you are saying but it’s not significant. Using the word disadvantage implies that a system is currently hindering your chances. That’s not the truth here

 

[Moko]

Y’all are literally like okay 4/5 = 80% vs 2,345/4,324 = ~50%

Therefore it’s much harder for Asians to get in.

Do you not have any awareness on how many applicants are Asians/ORMs?

Look up the ORMs percentage in the country, and look up the percentage in medical school/ doctors..... Yeah man they are at a HUGE disadvantage

There was once a department that was accused of sexism given the lower number of women in their residency program. Women made up the minority of that program. When an analysis was performed, they found that for a given set of credentials, women actually were more likely to be ranked highly than men. However, if women were more likely to be ranked than men, why were there fewer women in that department? Well, the answer is simple: women were simply not interested in that particular field, but for those who were, they were more likely to be ranked highly compared to men with similar backgrounds. This is why stratification is important when trying to interpret numbers, and also why statistics is part of the medical school curriculum so we can critically interpret studies. Sample size is only relevant for assessing significance in these scenarios.

Interpreting the admissions statistics here is similar in my opinion. There are fewer URMs than ORMs in medical school. However, for almost any given GPA / MCAT combination (I say 'almost' because I am too lazy to look up the entire chart), the acceptance rates for URMs are higher than ORMs. These are facts. You are right in that there are more Asians in medical school relative to the general population -- this too is a fact. Having said that, that is likely a result of Asians being more likely to apply to medical school compared to blacks and Hispanics. This would account for the discrepancy that you're mentioning here.

Ultimately, URMs are given extra leeway in the admissions process exactly for the reasons that you pointed out: low socioeconomic status, fewer community resources, educational disadvantages, etc. It's done with the understanding that a ORM with stellar stats who came from a more privileged background (college educated parents, living in a well funded school, etc), if placed in the situations that many URM applicants come from, would likely have worse statistics.

If URMs did not have an advantage, then for any given GPA / MCAT combination, the acceptance rates should be mostly similar (with variation depending on the sample size as you pointed out).

 

[deleted480308]

And I’m saying there is no inherent disadvantage of an ORM before he/she takes the mcat because of the higher SES, more education, less incarceration, less poverty than their URM counterpart. I see what you are saying but it’s not significant.

it's very significant because they aren't asking you guess the odds of a 3yr old. We're past all that now.

 

[chlorocruorin]

it's very significant because they aren't asking you guess the odds of a 3yr old. We're past all that now.

I guess whites are at a disadvantage too. My SDN advice to all white people is try not to mention anything that’ll expose your race.

When you add favor to one race, people will always think you’re TAKING AWAY favor from another race

 

[deleted480308]

I guess whites are at a disadvantage too. My SDN advice to all white people is try not to mention anything that’ll expose your race.

When you add favor to one race, people will always think you’re TAKING AWAY favor from another race

compared to everyone but asians, yeah.....whites are at a disadvantage when compared to applicants with the same stats

and yes, racially discriminating for one group means you racially discriminate against another

 

[chlorocruorin]

There was once a department that was accused of sexism given the lower number of women in their residency program. Women made up the minority of that program. When an analysis was performed, they found that for a given set of credentials, women actually were more likely to be ranked highly than men. However, if women were more likely to be ranked than men, why were there fewer women in that department? Well, the answer is simple: women were simply not interested in that particular field, but for those who were, they were more likely to be ranked highly compared to men with similar backgrounds. This is why stratification is important when trying to interpret numbers, and also why statistics is part of the medical school curriculum so we can critically interpret studies. Sample size is only relevant for assessing significance in these scenarios.

Interpreting the admissions statistics here is similar in my opinion. There are fewer URMs than ORMs in medical school. However, for almost any given GPA / MCAT combination (I say 'almost' because I am too lazy to look up the entire chart), the acceptance rates for URMs are higher than ORMs. These are facts. You are right in that there are more Asians in medical school relative to the general population -- this too is a fact. Having said that, that is likely a result of Asians being more likely to apply to medical school compared to blacks and Hispanics. This would account for the discrepancy that you're mentioning here.

Ultimately, URMs are given extra leeway in the admissions process exactly for the reasons that you pointed out: low socioeconomic status, fewer community resources, educational disadvantages, etc. It's done with the understanding that a ORM with stellar stats who came from a more privileged background (college educated parents, living in a well funded school, etc), if placed in the situations that many URM applicants come from, would likely have worse statistics.

If URMs did not have an advantage, then for any given GPA / MCAT combination, the acceptance rates should be mostly similar (with variation depending on the sample size as you pointed out).

Yes I agree with your post but my whole point was that admission committees are giving an advantage to underrepresented minorities to level the playing field, however they are not taking away favor from other races because of socioeconomic factors we mentioned.

 

[Moko]

I guess whites are at a disadvantage too. My SDN advice to all white people is try not to mention anything that’ll expose your race

Relatively speaking compared to blacks and Hispanics? Whites are at a relative disadvantage when it comes to med school admissions. This is what the statistics show.

This doesn't mean that whites have a harder time in life getting to where they are. I think that we all agree that blacks and Hispanics have a harder time moving up the social ladder for all the reasons that you brought up earlier. But when it comes to the admissions process, URMs are given an advantage, all else being equal.

admission committees are giving an advantage to underrepresented minorities to level the playing field,

Seems like we're all in agreement then 😉

 

[chlorocruorin]

Relatively speaking compared to blacks and Hispanics? Whites are at a relative disadvantage when it comes to med school admissions. This is what the statistics show.

This doesn't mean that whites have a harder time in life getting to where they are. I think that we all agree that blacks and Hispanics have a harder time moving up the social ladder for all the reasons that you brought up earlier. But when it comes to the admissions process, URMs are given an advantage, all else being equal.


Seems like we're all in agreement then 😉

The words white and disadvantaged don’t even sound correct nor should they be together lol

 

[Moko]

The words white and disadvantaged don’t even sound correct nor should they be together lol

Everything is relative and it depends on the context.

When it comes to life in general, blacks are at a relative disadvantage. The data supports this in my opinion (though interpretation also differs based on political views and whatnot).
When it comes to the admissions process specifically, ORMs are at a relative disadvantage. The data supports this too. ORMs are essentially expected to have higher stats, exactly because of the extra resources and opportunities afforded to them in life.

 

[chlorocruorin]

compared to everyone but asians, yeah.....whites are at a disadvantage when compared to applicants with the same stats

and yes, racially discriminating for one group means you racially discriminate against another

Admission committees value Resilience and overcoming adversity. But since you are clearly an adcom go on.

 

[chlorocruorin]

Everything is relative and it depends on the context.

When it comes to life in general, blacks are at a relative disadvantage. The data supports this in my opinion (though interpretation also differs based on political views and whatnot).
When it comes to the admissions process specifically, ORMs are at a relative disadvantage. The data supports this too. ORMs are essentially expected to have higher stats, exactly because of the extra resources and opportunities afforded to them in life.

Never knew I needed data to support how blacks are at a disadvantage. Guess I’ve been rolling the dice all my life without the data:/.... But as I said before giving someone an advantage doesn’t mean making someone disadvantaged

 

[chlorocruorin]

Lastly, everyone has mentioned mcat and GPA in terms of ORMs and whites for being at a disadvantage. What about the other components to the application? Why have we failed to mention that?

 

[chlorocruorin]

Everything is relative and it depends on the context.

When it comes to life in general, blacks are at a relative disadvantage. The data supports this in my opinion (though interpretation also differs based on political views and whatnot).
When it comes to the admissions process specifically, ORMs are at a relative disadvantage. The data supports this too. ORMs are essentially expected to have higher stats, exactly because of the extra resources and opportunities afforded to them in life.

So admissions process equals more leeway in mcat/GPA. What about the other components? PS, experiences, interviewing? Can’t measure those, but also based on resources one would assume that ORMs and whites have the edge in writing and opportunities relating to experiences and interviewing. So an edge in one aspect of the application means advantage in the entire application now?

 

[TheIllusionist]

Sophistry is an intellectual sin

 

[Moko]

Never knew I needed data to support how blacks are at a disadvantage. Guess I’ve been rolling the dice all my life without the data:/.... But as I said before giving someone an advantage doesn’t mean making someone disadvantaged

Well fortunately there is plenty of data out there that supports your / our viewpoint. Ideally, everything we say or do as doctors should be backed by some sort of data -- though in practice, this is not really the case, but that's a discussion for another thread...

When it comes to a limited resource, by giving one group an advantage, you are inherently (relatively speaking) making another group disadvantaged. Consider a barrel of water that's placed 1 mile away from 100 people. Now suppose you pick 10 people and place them just a 1/2 mile away from the barrel of water and tell everyone to go to the barrel to get as much water as they can. The 10 people placed closer to the barrel will be able to get a lot more water than the folks who needed to start 1 mile away.

Now, were the folks starting further away directly disadvantaged? Well no. It's not like someone went and broke their legs, blind folded them, or shackled them to extra weights. But, those who started further away would on average also have gotten less water in this scenario than if everyone started from the same distance away. So by giving one group an advantage here, the other groups were disadvantaged on a relative basis.

So admissions process equals more leeway in mcat/GPA. What about the other components? PS, experiences, interviewing? Can’t measure those, but also based on resources one would assume that ORMs and whites have the edge in writing and opportunities relating to experiences and interviewing. So an edge in one aspect of the application means advantage in the entire application now?

Generally speaking, I do expect that those from privileged backgrounds have better ECs relative to a socioeconomically disadvantaged applicant. They have more guidance, accessible volunteering sites, extra time to pursue these activities from not needing to take care of siblings, not needing to commute from home, etc. It just so happens that a larger proportion of socioeconomically disadvantaged applicants are URM, and a larger proportion of applicants coming from privileged backgrounds are ORM. But essentially all of these 'adjustments' are made exactly because of the socioeconomic factors that you brought up earlier in this thread.

 

[chlorocruorin]

Well there is plenty of data out there that supports your viewpoint. Ideally, everything we say or do as doctors should be backed by some sort of data -- though in practice, this is not really the case.

When it comes to a limited resource, by giving one group an advantage, you are inherently (relatively speaking) making another group disadvantaged. Consider a barrel of water that's placed 1 mile away from 100 people. Now suppose you pick 10 people and place them just a 1/2 mile away from the barrel of water and tell everyone to go to the barrel to get as much water as they can. The 10 people placed closer to the barrel will be able to get a lot more water than the folks who need to start 1 mile away. Now, were the folks starting further away directly disadvantaged? Well no. It's not like someone went and broke their legs, blind folded them, or shackled them to extra weights. But, those who started further away would on average also have gotten less water in this scenario than if everyone started from the same distance away.

Great scenario, but I’d reckon that those who started half way are the whites/ ORMs

 

[dr_kateb]

Never knew I needed data to support how blacks are at a disadvantage. Guess I’ve been rolling the dice all my life without the data:/.... But as I said before giving someone an advantage doesn’t mean making someone disadvantaged

There are limited seats in med school. Giving one person boost means docking another person.

Lastly, everyone has mentioned mcat and GPA in terms of ORMs and whites for being at a disadvantage. What about the other components to the application? Why have we failed to mention that?

So admissions process equals more leeway in mcat/GPA. What about the other components? PS, experiences, interviewing? Can’t measure those, but also based on resources one would assume that ORMs and whites have the edge in writing and opportunities relating to experiences and interviewing. So an edge in one aspect of the application means advantage in the entire application now?

Stats are the most important metric. GPA indicates if you can succeed in med school classes and MCAT shows if you can pass board exams.

A PS on the other hand could be written in one night really. I personally would not put too much weight on a 5300 character essay.
Experiences are already overvalued in my opinion. They’re a recent requirement because of how many apps schools get. Older doctors never had to do any of these ECs and all the doctors I’ve interacted with say they feel bad for newer premeds that have to do them.
The interview is pretty subjective too. 2 different interviewers could have a vastly different opinion of an applicant.

 

[chlorocruorin]

There are limited seats in med school. Giving one person boost means docking another person.




Stats are the most important metric. GPA indicates if you can succeed in med school classes and MCAT shows if you can pass board exams.

A PS on the other hand could be written in one night really. I personally would not put too much weight on a 5300 character essay.
Experiences are already overvalued in my opinion. They’re a recent requirement because of how many apps schools get. Older doctors never had to do any of these ECs and all the doctors I’ve interacted with say they feel bad for newer premeds that have to do them.
The interview is pretty subjective too. 2 different interviewers could have a vastly different opinion of an applicant.

You my friend are ill-advised. T10 adcoms have all regarded the PS as the most important piece of the application. The stats are becoming more and more nominal as everyone is scoring higher. I suggest you talk to some in person like I have. They will expose many myths pre meds have

 

[chlorocruorin]

There are limited seats in med school. Giving one person boost means docking another person.




Stats are the most important metric. GPA indicates if you can succeed in med school classes and MCAT shows if you can pass board exams.

A PS on the other hand could be written in one night really. I personally would not put too much weight on a 5300 character essay.
Experiences are already overvalued in my opinion. They’re a recent requirement because of how many apps schools get. Older doctors never had to do any of these ECs and all the doctors I’ve interacted with say they feel bad for newer premeds that have to do them.
The interview is pretty subjective too. 2 different interviewers could have a vastly different opinion of an applicant.

And based of your logic. If seats are limited, wouldn’t the race that has the most seats have the highest advantage? The aggregate number as I already mentioned is significantly stratified NOT in favor of URMs. So statistically your limited seat is being taken by an ORM or White person

 

[Raryn]

Ah pre-allo, never change.

The URM arguments are the same as they were a decade ago, and no one has ever been convinced one way or the other by arguing on this forum. The values used for the arguments are different, and while I agree with one side more than the other, both sides have sincerely held beliefs as to the (in-)justice of the current implementation of race in the setting of medical school admissions. There's a reason the admins have basically ruled we should stop talking about this subject.

I am writing and editing my PS at the moment. In it, I discuss how I realized how much I learned to value my family's mother language and use it to connect with patients. The language that i speak would indicate that I am ORM. I just saw an old thread where someone said they would advise against including any mention of being an ORM applicant in the personal statement. Is this true? Would my current PS hurt my chances? I already have indicated that I am Asian when I filled out the demographics portion of the primary app. Please help!

Presumably some combination of your name, photo, race box (if you checked it), and/or activities gives away your ethnicity. Mentioning it again is not going to harm you. The above topic is a little odd for a personal statement, but if you can connect it to your motivations to becoming a physician, it is perfectly fine to discuss. If you choose not to use it for your personal statement, you could use it for your diversity essays.

 

[MyOdyssey]

You my friend are ill-advised. T10 adcoms have all regarded the PS as the most important piece of the application. The stats are becoming more and more nominal as everyone is scoring higher. I suggest you talk to some in person like I have. They will expose many myths pre meds have

The ad coms who post on SDN do not take this position at all. They do consider it but I don't recall a single one saying it's the most important piece of the application and several have said it's not the most important part.

I'm not here to change your mind (it's clear yours is already made up) or to argue with you (what's the point?) but I had to add this because you're giving bad advice to current and future applicants by posting what you did.

 

[chlorocruorin]

not when adjusting for mcat and gpa...

3.6 to 3.79 gpa 30-32 mcat admit rates by race

hispanic 83.8 percent

blacks 93.7 percent

asians 57.7 percent

whites 63 percent

FACTS

Data on U.S. medical school applicants, matriculants, enrollments, and graduates; as well as data on MD-PhD students, residency, and residency applicants.

www.aamc.org

All publically available

People can defend this with pro social engineering narrative. But I laugh at those who deny reality

Who's more likely to take an applicants seat for that same mcat/GPA range? Because 1,100 Asians got accepted and only 179 blacks. You wanna know reality?

I’ll tell you. Your precious medical school seat is statistically more likely to be taken from an ORM/ white with those stats

 

[chlorocruorin]

The ad coms who post on SDN do not take this position at all. They do consider it but I don't recall a single one saying it's the most important piece of the application and several have said it's not the most important part.

I'm not here to change your mind (it's clear yours is already made up) or to argue with you (what's the point?) but I had to add this because you're giving bad advice to current and future applicants by posting what you did.

Bad advice because of the select ad coms here don’t agree. Okay. I advise you open your horizon and have more faith in someone sitting across from you than an account online but what’s the point of arguing. This is all subjective lol. One ad com saying something is not important doesn’t make it more or less true than if another adcom said it wasn’t important.

 

[dr_kateb]

And based of your logic. If seats are limited, wouldn’t the race that has the most seats have the highest advantage? The aggregate number as I already mentioned is significantly stratified NOT in favor of URMs. So statistically your limited seat is being taken by an ORM or White person

That’s assuming that the med school applicant pool is proportional to US overall demographics. They aren’t. Less URMs apply than ORMs, and if race “conscious” admissions were removed, ORMs would be given even more seats.

 

[meronebib]

These posters are incorrect and either have not seen or do not understand the statistics

For any specific given mcat/gpa, the race of an applicant significantly changes their acceptance rates. It’s publicly posted data on this forum for years.

It doesn’t mean you should lie and you may not be able to hide but it does literally hurt your application. It sucks, sorry

compared to everyone but asians, yeah.....whites are at a disadvantage when compared to applicants with the same stats

and yes, racially discriminating for one group means you racially discriminate against another

We’re not dumb, we understand these “complicated statistics” that the MCAT average is higher for ORM applicants. That’s not the point of this thread (which was if being ORM is something that should be hidden in the personal statement).

You’re using the word “disadvantage” too freely. Just because being URM is an advantage in admissions, doesn’t mean the opposite condition (ORM) is a disadvantage (this is simple inversion logic here). Being ORM is the normal condition, the neutral condition.

Having an IA? That’s a disadvantage, shouldn’t be highlighted in the personal statement. Having no clinical experience? Also a disadvantage, don’t highlight in the personal statement. Being ORM? No, not a disadvantage, completely normal, and not a problem if highlighted in the personal statement.

 

[deleted480308]

We’re not dumb, we understand these “complicated statistics” that the MCAT average is higher for ORM applicants. That’s not the point of this thread (which was if being ORM is something that should be hidden in the personal statement).

You’re using the word “disadvantage” too freely. Just because being URM is an advantage in admissions, doesn’t mean the opposite condition (ORM) is a disadvantage (this is simple inversion logic here). Being ORM is the normal condition, the neutral condition.

Having an IA? That’s a disadvantage, shouldn’t be highlighted in the personal statement. Having no clinical experience? Also a disadvantage, don’t highlight in the personal statement. Being ORM? No, not a disadvantage, completely normal, and not a problem if highlighted in the personal statement.

you take any application from any other race applicant and change the race to asian and it lowers their odds of getting in, that's a disadvantage.

 

[meronebib]

you take any application from any other race applicant and change the race to asian and it lowers their odds of getting in, that's a disadvantage.

Did you not even read my post?

This is what you sound like:

Someone with the average MCAT for matriculants (511 or so) is at a DISADVANTAGE because we have another group of applicants (those with 525+ MCATS) that get in 99% of the time! So you should retake that MCAT!

See how silly that sounds? A 511 MCAT isn’t a disadvantage—it’s neutral. A 500 MCAT? Yes, that’s a disadvantage.

Being URM is an advantage for admissions. Being ORM is neutral. Having an IA, criminal record, being a very old applicant... those are all active disadvantages.