I am so depressed after i have learned how i was getting paid as a dentist...

[scapleman]

I started a job as a General Dentist for this practice, where the owner of the practice doesn't practice but collects the money from all 7 of his practices.

When I was interviewed, I was told I would get paid, $450/ day and 35% of collections at the end of each month....so I thought, I would get what I was told, but after working for three weeks, I was told by the office manager my collections were around $30,000.00, so I assumed I would get 35% after lab fees, etc. Meaning I work 4days/ week/4weeks/month=$7200/month.

So, after lab fees 7% was taken from the $30,000, it leaves the collection amount to $27,900 so they took 35% of that which came out to $9765. So, my 35% collection for the month was determined by subtracting the daily $450/day salary($7200/month).....$9765-$7200=($2565 is my 35% monthly collection)....CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT?...I just finished residency this year and this is what I am getting paid, by assuming so much RISK.

Do you see how much money I have to make this guy to get my salary. If I can make my monthly salary in a couple of days based on cash payments(credit cards, cash, etc. by patients), then I could make some okay money?....besides, i just wanted to share this to students and to get some up lifting spirit from some specialist or dentist.

I am so depressed, and I can use a word of encouragement.

Thank You, and Happy New Year Guys!

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[Lily143]

So you work 4 days a week and make $10K a month? That's not bad at all. You are making more than me and working less hours. I didn't do a residency though, and I work in a big city with low cost of living.

 

[dmd87]

I started a job as a General Dentist for this practice, where the owner of the practice doesn't practice but collects the money from all 7 of his practices.

When I was interviewed, I was told I would get paid, $450/ day and 35% of collections at the end of each month....so I thought, I would get what I was told, but after working for three weeks, I was told by the office manager my collections were around $30,000.00, so I assumed I would get 35% after lab fees, etc. Meaning I work 4days/ week/4weeks/month=$7200/month.

So, after lab fees 7% was taken from the $30,000, it leaves the collection amount to $27,900 so they took 35% of that which came out to $9765. So, my 35% collection for the month was determined by subtracting the daily $450/day salary($7200/month).....$9765-$7200=($2565 is my 35% monthly collection)....CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT?...I just finished residency this year and this is what I am getting paid, by assuming so much RISK.

Do you see how much money I have to make this guy to get my salary. If I can make my monthly salary in a couple of days based on cash payments(credit cards, cash, etc. by patients), then I could make some okay money?....besides, i just wanted to share this to students and to get some up lifting spirit from some specialist or dentist.

I am so depressed, and I can use a word of encouragement.

Thank You, and Happy New Year Guys!

so ur total for the month is 9765 then? cuz its 7200+the 2565?

 

[psiyung]

I started a job as a General Dentist for this practice, where the owner of the practice doesn't practice but collects the money from all 7 of his practices.

When I was interviewed, I was told I would get paid, $450/ day and 35% of collections at the end of each month....so I thought, I would get what I was told, but after working for three weeks, I was told by the office manager my collections were around $30,000.00, so I assumed I would get 35% after lab fees, etc. Meaning I work 4days/ week/4weeks/month=$7200/month.

So, after lab fees 7% was taken from the $30,000, it leaves the collection amount to $27,900 so they took 35% of that which came out to $9765. So, my 35% collection for the month was determined by subtracting the daily $450/day salary($7200/month).....$9765-$7200=($2565 is my 35% monthly collection)....CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT?...I just finished residency this year and this is what I am getting paid, by assuming so much RISK.

Do you see how much money I have to make this guy to get my salary. If I can make my monthly salary in a couple of days based on cash payments(credit cards, cash, etc. by patients), then I could make some okay money?....besides, i just wanted to share this to students and to get some up lifting spirit from some specialist or dentist.

I am so depressed, and I can use a word of encouragement.

Thank You, and Happy New Year Guys!

ur depressed making a six figure salary and working 4 days a week? What's the world coming to?

 

[mike3kgt]

When I was interviewed, I was told I would get paid, $450/ day and 35% of collections at the end of each month....so I thought, I would get what I was told, but after working for three weeks, I was told by the office manager my collections were around $30,000.00, so I assumed I would get 35% after lab fees, etc. Meaning I work 4days/ week/4weeks/month=$7200/month.

So you are paid the greater of the two, either $450 /day or 35% of collections?

That's a pretty good job. Suck it up... you are whining. I know many other people who are working at medicaid clinics who pay the greater of $250 /day or 28% of collections (on MEDICAID fee schedule!).

Gross of nearly 10K month is pretty darn good straight out of residency. If you want to earn more, up your production. Dentistry is tough and not an easy job, but $120,000 a year your first year ain't too bad.

 

[djh597]

I bought a fantastic practice out of school 3.5 years ago. I work 4 days a week. In 09 I took home a little over $260,000. All I want to do is go back to school for Pedo. I have been trying for a year to sell my practice but no takers. Why? Because it is in Kansas.

People join the Army so they will pay for Dental School. Then they have to move where ever the Army sends them. Buy my practice, work it for four years, make over a million bucks, then sell it to the next guy and move where you want.

I know it sounds too good to be true, but it is true. Email me/ PM me/ post on here for details.

 

[Daurang]

$120K a year just coming out of school is not too bad but you need to make a lot more soon. In contrast to your highly specialized skills, the average government worker, who typically does very little and knows very little, average that much plus pension, vacation, union representation, etc., without all the debts and headaches and years of school sacrifices. Even a toll collector in NY or MA make as much as you!😡 Why bother with higher education if we can all work for such the government jobs right out of high school?

 

[mmasurf]

120k isnt bad but think about how much stress it took to become a dentist, on top of that all the loans. with MTA workers and even garbage collectors making 70-90k and even physician assistants who make 110k with only 2 yrs of education and nothing to worry about cause they work under the physician i say thats a really bad deal. Not to keep pushing it but in california hygienists push for 100-110k . so 120k isnt a bad start but u need to push for higher.

 

[tncekm]

120k isnt bad but think about how much stress it took to become a dentist, on top of that all the loans. with MTA workers and even garbage collectors making 70-90k and even physician assistants who make 110k with only 2 yrs of education and nothing to worry about cause they work under the physician i say thats a really bad deal. Not to keep pushing it but in california hygienists push for 100-110k . so 120k isnt a bad start but u need to push for higher.

Dentists who make money have successful private practices. You have an opportunity, as a dentist, that neither the PA (6 yrs of school, BTW) nor the MTA worker have. E.g. my wife's employer works 4.5 days/wk, often leaving by 1PM and he has a million dollar practice. (Not sure what he's personally netting, but it's a lot...anybody who can make 10k+ in production in a day is killing it).

 

[Daurang]

A million dollar practice will typically net you $350K. After paying your typical 12% self employment tax, 40% federal income tax, 9% Cali tax, and funding your IRA $49K, what do you really have at the end? I just want everyone here to have a realistic expectation of what you're really making.

 

[scapleman]

i can't believe how my post got so much positive perspective about my present job....i was told in dental school to always buy your practice and now, i see....especially by learning from the doc of Kansas..

thank you guys for your support....i will take my blessings and consider them most humbly.

 

[scapleman]

120k isnt bad but think about how much stress it took to become a dentist, on top of that all the loans. with MTA workers and even garbage collectors making 70-90k and even physician assistants who make 110k with only 2 yrs of education and nothing to worry about cause they work under the physician i say thats a really bad deal. Not to keep pushing it but in california hygienists push for 100-110k . so 120k isnt a bad start but u need to push for higher.

you're absolutely right, i got it!...thanks!

 

[scapleman]

So you are paid the greater of the two, either $450 /day or 35% of collections?

That's a pretty good job. Suck it up... you are whining. I know many other people who are working at medicaid clinics who pay the greater of $250 /day or 28% of collections (on MEDICAID fee schedule!).

Gross of nearly 10K month is pretty darn good straight out of residency. If you want to earn more, up your production. Dentistry is tough and not an easy job, but $120,000 a year your first year ain't too bad.

thanks Mike, b/c life could be a lot worse...

 

[Oracle DMD]

A million dollar practice will typically net you $350K. After paying your typical 12% self employment tax, 40% federal income tax, 9% Cali tax, and funding your IRA $49K, what do you really have at the end? I just want everyone here to have a realistic expectation of what you're really making.

that's right, if you're not using an accountant to use very legal tax loopholes to "hide" that 350k. and put you under that 40% tax bracket. what do you mean 12% self employment tax? isn't that why you work under an S-Corp or a C-Corp? that should make you exempt from that 12%. so you might be "making less" but keeping much much more. right?

 

[mike3kgt]

thanks Mike, b/c life could be a lot worse...

Sorry to come down on you hard but you have a pretty good situation... especially if you are not taking Medicaid with that office.

$120k right now is the moderate end of most associate positions. I know some who are making 150-200k a year but I also know some who are making 70-110k a year.

35% collections before lab bill is good, but 7% for lab is rather steep. Your actual compensation is 28% if you consider lab expenses... Are you actually doing that much crown/bridge or removable in a month? $2100 seems high for a junior associate when you should be sharing the cost with your senior dentist, not taking the whole cost upon your shoulders. Usually practices want you to pay a % of the lab bill, either 30-35% or 50%. This numbering is based upon several factors, your take home comission % is one of them. Your employer actually seems fair in the way their compensation is structured... i.e. the greater of the two, either daily minimum or % of collection aggregate over the month. Many people I talk with only take home a % of collections... which can be very tricky in an office where they aren't motivated to schedule you high production procedures.

Do not compare yourself to others, especially other professions. I learned that one that hard way. Only compare yourself and your salary to how much it takes for you to live comfortably on and to put a few in the bank for a rainy day (which for most of us, is right now). If you can go to sleep at night knowing you are doing right for your patients, paying your expenses and putting some green in the bank, what a great feeling... no matter what the guy down the street CLAIMS they are doing....

Good luck to you as you begin your career.

 

[HuyetKiem]

that's right, if you're not using an accountant to use very legal tax loopholes to "hide" that 350k. and put you under that 40% tax bracket. what do you mean 12% self employment tax? isn't that why you work under an S-Corp or a C-Corp? that should make you exempt from that 12%. so you might be "making less" but keeping much much more. right?

12% ? It's 15% for FICA and SS tax. It doesn't matter if you work under S-corp, C-corp or Independent contractor, you will have to pay that 15% to IRS

 

[HuyetKiem]

A million dollar practice will typically net you $350K. After paying your typical 12% self employment tax, 40% federal income tax, 9% Cali tax, and funding your IRA $49K, what do you really have at the end? I just want everyone here to have a realistic expectation of what you're really making.

I heard you man. Sending lots money every month to EFTPS is so painful 😕😕

 

[Oracle DMD]

12% ? It's 15% for FICA and SS tax. It doesn't matter if you work under S-corp, C-corp or Independent contractor, you will have to pay that 15% to IRS

you will have to pay the IRS, but not the self employment tax.

Self-Employment Tax Break: Profits of the S-Corp which pass through to the shareholders are not subject to self-employment tax (Social Security and Medicare which is approximately 15%). Rather, self-employment is only taxed on the portion classified as a "reasonable salary". LLCs and sole-proprietorships must pay self-employment tax on all income. The ability to minimize self-employment tax is deemed to be one of the greatest benefits of a s-corporation.

(from http://www.businessknowhow.com/startup/llc-scorp.htm)


can dentists not do this?

 

[Slack3r]

Don't you have staff salaries to pay on top of your overheard? With most practices in the 50%-60% of just overhead alone, you'd also have staff to pay before yourself. And then, as mentioned, the highest tax-bracket since you're a rich greedy doctor.

 

[armorshell]

Don't you have staff salaries to pay on top of your overheard? With most practices in the 50%-60% of just overhead alone, you'd also have staff to pay before yourself. And then, as mentioned, the highest tax-bracket since you're a rich greedy doctor.

Staff salaries ARE overhead.

 

[jay47]

120k isnt bad but think about how much stress it took to become a dentist, on top of that all the loans. with MTA workers and even garbage collectors making 70-90k and even physician assistants who make 110k with only 2 yrs of education and nothing to worry about cause they work under the physician i say thats a really bad deal. Not to keep pushing it but in california hygienists push for 100-110k . so 120k isnt a bad start but u need to push for higher.

70-90 for garbage collectors? I'm pretty sure that in my area garbage collectors (at least the guys that do the actual collecting) make nowhere near that much....Maybe ini Cali they do, where everything else is also overpriced.

Hygienists making 110 in Cali? That's pretty good, and I'm certain they don't make that much here either.

 

[The Hammer]

that's right, if you're not using an accountant to use very legal tax loopholes to "hide" that 350k. and put you under that 40% tax bracket. what do you mean 12% self employment tax? isn't that why you work under an S-Corp or a C-Corp? that should make you exempt from that 12%. so you might be "making less" but keeping much much more. right?

Actually for a "million" dollar practice I would expect your net to be less than $350K. Your net before taxes assuming a 65% overhead( which IIRC is the national average) would be $350K. You can then deposit $40K pretax in your retirement (and more if you have a spouse or kids on the payroll) so depending on your tax bracket you wouldn't be clearing $350K unless your gross was a little more like $1.3 million.

But when looking at a practice gross production numbers are misleading and generally useless as they only reflect what was charged out. Not what was collected, what the percentage overhead the practice has and how many hours were worked to produce that. And if you are looking at buying a practice you also need to consider what the Accounts receivable is and what the ongoing (if any) depreciation of equipment the practice still has.

 

[Oracle DMD]

Actually for a "million" dollar practice I would expect your net to be less than $350K. Your net before taxes assuming a 65% overhead( which IIRC is the national average) would be $350K. You can then deposit $40K pretax in your retirement (and more if you have a spouse or kids on the payroll) so depending on your tax bracket you wouldn't be clearing $350K unless your gross was a little more like $1.3 million.

But when looking at a practice gross production numbers are misleading and generally useless as they only reflect what was charged out. Not what was collected, what the percentage overhead the practice has and how many hours were worked to produce that. And if you are looking at buying a practice you also need to consider what the Accounts receivable is and what the ongoing (if any) depreciation of equipment the practice still has.

so its really hard to tell what a dentist means when they say "i made x dollars last year".

 

[djh597]

you can believe them as much as you can believe your neighbor telling you what they make. The less bells and whistles the office has, they more that dentist is probably making.
remember: Its not what you make, Its what you keep.

 

[Slack3r]

Staff salaries ARE overhead.

I was under the impression that in the strictest sense of the word, overhead did not include staff salaries. Perhaps I'm mistaken?

 

[zoralsurgeon]

staff salaries are a huge part of overhead..affecting both indirect and direct costs/expenses in the end..

 

[gryffindor]

I was under the impression that in the strictest sense of the word, overhead did not include staff salaries. Perhaps I'm mistaken?

Staff salaries are the largest part of overhead.

 

[mike3kgt]

The less bells and whistles the office has, they more that dentist is probably making.

Not always... but I have seen many many times the case where a SIMPLE office design = less overhead costs and higher net returns for the dentist. I have also seen where a beautiful office design = higher overhead costs but yet higher net returns for the dentist.

I am sure there are books about pros & cons of office design regarding overhead costs vs. patient comfort & office esthetics, high tech vs. low tech etc. Don't always assume the guy with the basic design is making more money than the fancy office. If you fees are too low, you cannot afford to have a piano in your waiting room or a fresh coat of paint on the walls every 6 months. It depends on your practice location, competition, patient demands, and staff demands.

Your statement is a very difficult yet simplistic analysis, don't assume either way. Go get a few issues of dental economics and see office designs, I bet you those beautiful office designs weren't cheap. I also bet you if they submitted their offices to DE, they are the type of dentist who has spent a lot of time researching and implementing a practice plan prior to investing all of that $$ in redesign and furthermore, submitting their plans to DE.

 

[The Hammer]

staff salaries are a huge part of overhead..affecting both indirect and direct costs/expenses in the end..

yep salaries are the biggest percentage of overhead. Also dentist draw and associate pay factor in as well.

 

[The Hammer]

so its really hard to tell what a dentist means when they say "i made x dollars last year".

Unless you have some intimate financial details (like if you were buying the practice) what a practice grosses is only indicative of busyness and not profitability.

I'll give you an example. Several years ago when air abrasion was all the rage there was an ad of a dentist testimonial for Whisperjet that read " I bought a whisper jet and took my practice from $330K a year to $1.2MILLION!!! Is it me or the Whisperjet?

I knew someone who did practice management with this doc and I called them up and got the details of this amazing practice boost.

The practice that the doc was talking about was one that he bought at a fire sale from a doc who's health was failing. The office was open 3 days a week for about 27 hours and about 175 days a year. Once the new doc bought it he had it open 7 days a week, 10 hours a day for about 220 days a year (using multiple docs and hygienists). I punched in the figures for a per day average gross and the practice was actually doing slighter better gross-wise BEFORE it was sold.

 

[Slack3r]

The practice that the doc was talking about was one that he bought at a fire sale from a doc who's health was failing. The office was open 3 days a week for about 27 hours and about 175 days a year. Once the new doc bought it he had it open 7 days a week, 10 hours a day for about 220 days a year (using multiple docs and hygienists). I punched in the figures for a per day average gross and the practice was actually doing slighter better gross-wise BEFORE it was sold.

I wonder...do you think most dentists only work 4 days a week because they want to? Or because patient volume doesn't warrant being open more days?

 

[tncekm]

A million dollar practice will typically net you $350K. After paying your typical 12% self employment tax, 40% federal income tax, 9% Cali tax, and funding your IRA $49K, what do you really have at the end? I just want everyone here to have a realistic expectation of what you're really making.

I am pretty sure this guy is netting more than that. He only has about $200k/yr in staff overhead. But, $350k/yr is still a nice chunk of change even if that's all he were to net. Not to mention the fact that he goes home by about 1:00 PM most of the 4.5days/wk he works!!

But, overall, your point is very well made. People need to realize that if they want to be loaded, then there is a very low chance of that happening just by working a medical/dental job. What you do get is opportunity, stability, and more than enough money to live comfortably on.

EDIT: Also, people really shouldn't whine about how they "have" to put money into retirement and then not count that money toward their salary. Dentists aren't the only people on the planet who take money out of their paychecks and apply it toward retirement. What you net is what you net.

I wonder...do you think most dentists only work 4 days a week because they want to? Or because patient volume doesn't warrant being open more days?

LOL. I'd say it's 50/50 with the dentists I know.

Bells and whistles in practice

A lot of that fancy equipment is an amazing asset to an office. Intra-oral camera's, diagnodent's, digital-everything, etc. all allow your patients to trust you and your diagnoses, and as a result you get higher patient compliance. Good staff will do the same for you because patients almost instinctively trust the staff 100x more than the dentist. The guy I spoke of earlier with a 1mln+ practice considers his hygienst to be essentially priceless because she has improved patient compliance so much. So, not only is she making $45/hr, she now gets benefits b/c she makes him cash. You've got to spend in order to make. Spend wisely, but not frugally IMHO.

 

[djh597]

I wonder...do you think most dentists only work 4 days a week because they want to? Or because patient volume doesn't warrant being open more days?

Because they want to.

 

[charlestweed]

The less bells and whistles the office has, they more that dentist is probably making.
remember: Its not what you make, Its what you keep.

👍Agree with this 100%. I've always been a strong advocate of simple low overhead office design. I try to keep all of my offices as simple as possible for the following reasons:

- To weed out picky, pain in the a-- patients….they think they can do anything they want when they pay the above average fees. I'd rather treat blue-collar patients who are very appreciative of what I've done for them….I don't mind lower my fees to treat these nice hard-working people.

- With lower overhead, I can afford to buy a nice home a dream car a lot sooner. I don't want to wait 4-5 years for my business to pick up….life is short.

- I don't have to fool the patients by making them to believe that I provide better treatment b/c I have those belts and whistles in my practice. When people ask me if I use the self ligating brackets in my practice, I tell them that good tx outcomes depend on the doctor's clinical and diagnostic skills…..not on the type of brackets he/she uses.

- I don't face the pressure of having to maintain high production every month. Many owners of high end offices are struggling during this recession because they still have to make payments on those high tech gadgets and high office rent. For me, I simply reduce my staff hours and close 1-2 days/month and still bring home the same net amount.

- With lower overhead, I can set up multiple offices and don't have to borrow $$$ from the banks. With 3 offices I currently own, I can see more patients in wider area and I can meet more referring GPs.

 

[TJNova2011]

👍Agree with this 100%. I’ve always been a strong advocate of simple low overhead office design. I try to keep all of my offices as simple as possible for the following reasons:

- To weed out picky, pain in the a-- patients….they think they can do anything they want when they pay the above average fees. I’d rather treat blue-collar patients who are very appreciative of what I’ve done for them….I don’t mind lower my fees to treat these nice hard-working people.

- With lower overhead, I can afford to buy a nice home a dream car a lot sooner. I don’t want to wait 4-5 years for my business to pick up….life is short.

- I don’t have to fool the patients by making them to believe that I provide better treatment b/c I have those belts and whistles in my practice. When people ask me if I use the self ligating brackets in my practice, I tell them that good tx outcomes depend on the doctor’s clinical and diagnostic skills…..not on the type of brackets he/she uses.

- I don’t face the pressure of having to maintain high production every month. Many owners of high end offices are struggling during this recession because they still have to make payments on those high tech gadgets and high office rent. For me, I simply reduce my staff hours and close 1-2 days/month and still bring home the same net amount.

- With lower overhead, I can set up multiple offices and don't have to borrow $$$ from the banks. With 3 offices I currently own, I can see more patients in wider area and I can meet more referring GPs.

Thank you for your advice/experience.

What's that dream car? 😀

 

[HuyetKiem]

👍Agree with this 100%. I’ve always been a strong advocate of simple low overhead office design. I try to keep all of my offices as simple as possible for the following reasons:

- To weed out picky, pain in the a-- patients….they think they can do anything they want when they pay the above average fees. I’d rather treat blue-collar patients who are very appreciative of what I’ve done for them….I don’t mind lower my fees to treat these nice hard-working people.

- With lower overhead, I can afford to buy a nice home a dream car a lot sooner. I don’t want to wait 4-5 years for my business to pick up….life is short.

- I don’t have to fool the patients by making them to believe that I provide better treatment b/c I have those belts and whistles in my practice. When people ask me if I use the self ligating brackets in my practice, I tell them that good tx outcomes depend on the doctor’s clinical and diagnostic skills…..not on the type of brackets he/she uses.

- I don’t face the pressure of having to maintain high production every month. Many owners of high end offices are struggling during this recession because they still have to make payments on those high tech gadgets and high office rent. For me, I simply reduce my staff hours and close 1-2 days/month and still bring home the same net amount.

- With lower overhead, I can set up multiple offices and don't have to borrow $$$ from the banks. With 3 offices I currently own, I can see more patients in wider area and I can meet more referring GPs.

yep, keep it simple as possible. Just adding new paints and pretty landscaping would do the trick. 😀😀

 

[perioplasticman]

The answer to your problem is dont work for someone. You are basically give the owner of the practice 65 cents on every dollar you make. We are in a bad economy so my advice is rent some space from someone 1-2 days a week, sign up with some insurance companys and build your practice. Eventually, you can complete cut out working for someone.

 

[mike3kgt]

The answer to your problem is dont work for someone. You are basically give the owner of the practice 65 cents on every dollar you make.

Easier said than done these days when many students have over 150-200k in student loans to pay off each month. The need for immediate income often takes priority over working on your own, even part time, until you can get you dental and business skills advanced enough to realize that there's more to a dental practice than just doing crowns and endo. At that point, can you handle opening a practice and making it work?... I couldn't imagine opening a practice these days straight out of school. The absolutely quickest I would go would to buy a practice right out of school with a guarantee the retiring doctor would be leaving in 1-2 years to mentor you as to how to run the practice.

Furthermore, of that $1.00, you may be paid 35 cents (35% collections), but how much is going to office expenses? Assuming total practice overhead averages 60%, then the owner dentist is only netting (before taxes) 5 cents (5%) from you on every dollar.

This may be a lot, or a little, but any time you can get paid for other people's work... HEY.... that sounds great! Just don't make it sound like the owner dentist is totally shafting the associate dentist. There are a lot of risks to assume as the owner dentist hiring a young associate doc and some with a payoff, others with a cost. Solo owner-associate agreements aren't as apt for abuse as much as a corporate associate position. When you accept a corporate position, get ready to get swindled at every opportunity!

 

[Daurang]

.

 

[The Hammer]

👍Agree with this 100%. I’ve always been a strong advocate of simple low overhead office design. I try to keep all of my offices as simple as possible for the following reasons:

- To weed out picky, pain in the a-- patients….they think they can do anything they want when they pay the above average fees. I’d rather treat blue-collar patients who are very appreciative of what I’ve done for them….I don’t mind lower my fees to treat these nice hard-working people.

- With lower overhead, I can afford to buy a nice home a dream car a lot sooner. I don’t want to wait 4-5 years for my business to pick up….life is short.

- I don’t have to fool the patients by making them to believe that I provide better treatment b/c I have those belts and whistles in my practice. When people ask me if I use the self ligating brackets in my practice, I tell them that good tx outcomes depend on the doctor’s clinical and diagnostic skills…..not on the type of brackets he/she uses.

- I don’t face the pressure of having to maintain high production every month. Many owners of high end offices are struggling during this recession because they still have to make payments on those high tech gadgets and high office rent. For me, I simply reduce my staff hours and close 1-2 days/month and still bring home the same net amount.

- With lower overhead, I can set up multiple offices and don't have to borrow $$$ from the banks. With 3 offices I currently own, I can see more patients in wider area and I can meet more referring GPs.

The last 7 years of my practice I did nothing but full mouth restoration, fixed and removable. Insurance wasn't an issue because at a $1000 limit the treatment usually ran pass that at exam phase.

My patients were a mix of about 50% blue collar workers and 50% professionals (lawyers, accountants, other dentists and their wives etc). Of all of those my favorites were the "blue collar" workers. The always showed up early, paid promptly in cash and were super appreciative for what you were doing.

To add a little more fuel to the fire did you know that the ADA reports that only about 6% of dentists have enough money to retire when they reach retirement age?

 

[perioplasticman]

Easier said than done these days when many students have over 150-200k in student loans to pay off each month. The need for immediate income often takes priority over working on your own, even part time, until you can get you dental and business skills advanced enough to realize that there's more to a dental practice than just doing crowns and endo. At that point, can you handle opening a practice and making it work?... I couldn't imagine opening a practice these days straight out of school. The absolutely quickest I would go would to buy a practice right out of school with a guarantee the retiring doctor would be leaving in 1-2 years to mentor you as to how to run the practice.

Furthermore, of that $1.00, you may be paid 35 cents (35% collections), but how much is going to office expenses? Assuming total practice overhead averages 60%, then the owner dentist is only netting (before taxes) 5 cents (5%) from you on every dollar.

This may be a lot, or a little, but any time you can get paid for other people's work... HEY.... that sounds great! Just don't make it sound like the owner dentist is totally shafting the associate dentist. There are a lot of risks to assume as the owner dentist hiring a young associate doc and some with a payoff, others with a cost. Solo owner-associate agreements aren't as apt for abuse as much as a corporate associate position. When you accept a corporate position, get ready to get swindled at every opportunity!

I agree with you totally, Thats way I said start on your own 1-2 days a week. When I started I worked 7 days and had 200k to pay back. I worked for someone and the as I built up my practice, I added days until I was done working for someone else.

You have to take the plunge at some point.

 

[MAXIMUS PRIME]

I started a job as a General Dentist for this practice, where the owner of the practice doesn't practice but collects the money from all 7 of his practices.

When I was interviewed, I was told I would get paid, $450/ day and 35% of collections at the end of each month....so I thought, I would get what I was told, but after working for three weeks, I was told by the office manager my collections were around $30,000.00, so I assumed I would get 35% after lab fees, etc. Meaning I work 4days/ week/4weeks/month=$7200/month.

So, after lab fees 7% was taken from the $30,000, it leaves the collection amount to $27,900 so they took 35% of that which came out to $9765. So, my 35% collection for the month was determined by subtracting the daily $450/day salary($7200/month).....$9765-$7200=($2565 is my 35% monthly collection)....CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT?...I just finished residency this year and this is what I am getting paid, by assuming so much RISK.

Do you see how much money I have to make this guy to get my salary. If I can make my monthly salary in a couple of days based on cash payments(credit cards, cash, etc. by patients), then I could make some okay money?....besides, i just wanted to share this to students and to get some up lifting spirit from some specialist or dentist.

I am so depressed, and I can use a word of encouragement.

Thank You, and Happy New Year Guys!

This is what it takes for you to wake up and be a specialist

 

[mrlantern]

So, my 35% collection for the month was determined by subtracting the daily $450/day salary($7200/month).....$9765-$7200=($2565 is my 35% monthly collection)...

Do you see how much money I have to make this guy to get my salary.

I am so depressed, and I can use a word of encouragement.

Here's some encouragement you can use:

I recently left a part-time position. Unlike my other dental positions, this one was somewhat decent. Except.... I had to quit this one because they weren't paying me, for at least one month. I quit without giving them any notice because there was no point in staying there for an extra day if I wasn't going to get paid. Heck, I wasn't even put on a daily guarantee. By putting me purely on a 33% commission-based pay, you'd think they would have the decency to at least pay me on time. Being the stupid nice guy I am, I parted ways with them while smiling and thanking them for letting me be there.

You're also making a lot more money than me. It's been a few years since I got out of d-school and I never made it close to 100k/yr even when working 6 days/week. I don't know why I'm having a hard time. Maybe it's just me. Maybe it's the shady practices. I don't know but, regardless, I can't hack it in dentistry and can no longer survive like this. If all turns out well for me, I will leave dentistry for another career in 2011.

So don't feel too bad. There are dentists who are doing a lot worse than you. You're still a new dentist, and there is a learning curve to this profession. For a beginner, your income isn't bad and I'm sure it will go up if you continue learning and practicing the right way.

 

[Slack3r]

Here's some encouragement you can use:

I recently left a part-time position. Unlike my other dental positions, this one was somewhat decent. Except.... I had to quit this one because they weren't paying me, for at least one month. I quit without giving them any notice because there was no point in staying there for an extra day if I wasn't going to get paid. Heck, I wasn't even put on a daily guarantee. By putting me purely on a 33% commission-based pay, you'd think they would have the decency to at least pay me on time. Being the stupid nice guy I am, I parted ways with them while smiling and thanking them for letting me be there.

You're also making a lot more money than me. It's been a few years since I got out of d-school and I never made it close to 100k/yr even when working 6 days/week. I don't know why I'm having a hard time. Maybe it's just me. Maybe it's the shady practices. I don't know but, regardless, I can't hack it in dentistry and can no longer survive like this. If all turns out well for me, I will leave dentistry for another career in 2011.

So don't feel too bad. There are dentists who are doing a lot worse than you. You're still a new dentist, and there is a learning curve to this profession. For a beginner, your income isn't bad and I'm sure it will go up if you continue learning and practicing the right way.

Maybe it's that you live in one of the highest price-of-living areas in the country that is simultaneously oversaturated (to extreme levels) with dentists?

 

[gryffindor]

Maybe it's that you live in one of the highest price-of-living areas in the country that is simultaneously oversaturated (to extreme levels) with dentists?

Actually I think California, particularly LA and SF are worse than NYC in terms of saturation. I remember seeing strip malls in San Jose and on the way to Napa that had not one, but two completely separate dental offices. In the same mall??? I've never seen that in New Jersey, home of the strip mall and the most densely populated state in the nation.

 

[Daurang]

Actually I think California, particularly LA and SF are worse than NYC in terms of saturation. I remember seeing strip malls in San Jose and on the way to Napa that had not one, but two completely separate dental offices. In the same mall??? I've never seen that in New Jersey, home of the strip mall and the most densely populated state in the nation.

Yes. On the corner of Senter/Tully Rd where I once lived, there's a new small stripmall with FIVE dental offices (among many other stripmalls nearby with many other dental offices). When I look at the census data in 1999 showing California with more dental offices (22,000) than there are car repair shops (20,000), I packed and left the left coast.

Another thing to keep in mind is Cali is an extremely high tax state with extremely unfriendly business environment. The state's small business bankrupcies rose 85% last year. The state itself has been running $20 billion deficit every year for the past couple years. Toyota in Fremont is leaving next month for Texas. Boeing is leaving Long Beach at the end of the year. Grumman Northrop announced today they're leaving. 5000 of the richest wage earners from California also left recently, taking with them $8 billion worth of income tax the state would have had. Keep all that in mind as you return to Cali from dental school to work for Western Dental and Smilecare.

 

[DrJeff]

Yes. On the corner of Senter/Tully Rd where I once lived, there's a new small stripmall with FIVE dental offices (among many other stripmalls nearby with many other dental offices). When I look at the census data in 1999 showing California with more dental offices (22,000) than there are car repair shops (20,000), I packed and left the left coast.

Another thing to keep in mind is Cali is an extremely high tax state with extremely unfriendly business environment. The state's small business bankrupcies rose 85% last year. The state itself has been running $20 billion deficit every year for the past couple years. Toyota in Fremont is leaving next month for Texas. Boeing is leaving Long Beach at the end of the year. Grumman Northrop announced today they're leaving. 5000 of the richest wage earners from California also left recently, taking with them $8 billion worth of income tax the state would have had. Keep all that in mind as you return to Cali from dental school to work for Western Dental and Smilecare.

One of these days, maybe, just maybe enough folks in gov't will realize that they should be kissing the backsides of business (both small and large) and the wealthy in the form of fair taxes, since its these groups (business and often closely associated the wealthy) that pay such a lionshare of the taxes and they the vast majority of the time they didn't become successful by being stupid and quickly realize that they can often do business for less in other areas where they'll very often find an equally satisfying quality of life. The more businesses in a state, the more people employed, the more people paying taxes, the more the gov't takes in and the less they have to pay out - it really is that simple.

 

[Jone]

Charlestweed:

When you first started solo practices that were open maybe a few days per month, how did you handle patient emergencies?

👍Agree with this 100%. I’ve always been a strong advocate of simple low overhead office design. I try to keep all of my offices as simple as possible for the following reasons:

- To weed out picky, pain in the a-- patients….they think they can do anything they want when they pay the above average fees. I’d rather treat blue-collar patients who are very appreciative of what I’ve done for them….I don’t mind lower my fees to treat these nice hard-working people.

- With lower overhead, I can afford to buy a nice home a dream car a lot sooner. I don’t want to wait 4-5 years for my business to pick up….life is short.

- I don’t have to fool the patients by making them to believe that I provide better treatment b/c I have those belts and whistles in my practice. When people ask me if I use the self ligating brackets in my practice, I tell them that good tx outcomes depend on the doctor’s clinical and diagnostic skills…..not on the type of brackets he/she uses.

- I don’t face the pressure of having to maintain high production every month. Many owners of high end offices are struggling during this recession because they still have to make payments on those high tech gadgets and high office rent. For me, I simply reduce my staff hours and close 1-2 days/month and still bring home the same net amount.

- With lower overhead, I can set up multiple offices and don't have to borrow $$$ from the banks. With 3 offices I currently own, I can see more patients in wider area and I can meet more referring GPs.

 

[DentStudent2010]

120k isnt bad but think about how much stress it took to become a dentist, on top of that all the loans. with MTA workers and even garbage collectors making 70-90k and even physician assistants who make 110k with only 2 yrs of education and nothing to worry about cause they work under the physician i say thats a really bad deal. Not to keep pushing it but in california hygienists push for 100-110k . so 120k isnt a bad start but u need to push for higher.

Can you provide your source for this?

 

[DentStudent2010]

I would also like to add that $120,000 is not a good salary for a student who is making the doc $40,000 a month.

If your satisfied with this salary go work for indian health service and sit on your rear all day and have the good life.