I am so depressed after i have learned how i was getting paid as a dentist...

[UnD3R0aTh]

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you're so depressed? hahaha! come work in Egypt, you won't even make 500$ a month!

oh btw, what do you do with all that moneh? xD

(im a 2nd year dental student btw)

 

[djh597]

I would also like to add that $120,000 is not a good salary for a student who is making the doc $40,000 a month.

If your satisfied with this salary go work for indian health service and sit on your rear all day and have the good life.

anybody actually making the doc $40,000 a month is not getting paid 120,000. just because you produce 40,000 a month, does not mean you are making the doc that much.

 

[DrJeff]

anybody actually making the doc $40,000 a month is not getting paid 120,000. just because you produce 40,000 a month, does not mean you are making the doc that much.

It's not like the doc owner incurs any increase in overhead when they bring an associate on 😉

Although being completely honest as an owner, the overhead increase to bring in an associate under most circumstances isn't equivalent to the overhead for the rest of the practice (especially if no new rooms need to be built), the increase in the overhead to bring in an associate is often less. (i.e. if the office prior to bringing in an associate has an overhead of say 60% more often than not the percentage of collections from that new associate that goes to the increase in overhead incurred from bringing on that associate may only be 45%)

 

[charlestweed]

Charlestweed:

When you first started solo practices that were open maybe a few days per month, how did you handle patient emergencies?

Yeah, because of my full time associate job, my office only opened 2 days/month when I first started 5 years ago. Even now, I still only work 5 days/month at this office, 4 days/month at my 2nd office, and 2 days/month at my 3rd office.

The good thing about ortho is 99.9% of the emergency calls can easily be taken care of over the phone. My office manager is very good at handling these calls. For more urgent problems (such as poking wires, quad helix cutting the pt's tongue etc.), I asked the pt to drive to my wife's perio office and she helped take care of the problem for me. My wife only had to this 3-4 times during the 1st year. Sometimes, I had to drive to my office right after I finished working at Western Dental.

 

[DentStudent2010]

anybody actually making the doc $40,000 a month is not getting paid 120,000. just because you produce 40,000 a month, does not mean you are making the doc that much.

THINK! dont be ignorant, the original poster said he was making the owner 10k a week x 4 weeks = 40,000.

If I produce 40,000 a month then I am bringing into that office a cash flow of $40,000 before expenses and if not its the owners fault for not hiring someone competent to collect the money. I don't care what the expenses are because as an employee I have no control over expenses thats the owner's responsibility.

All I know is that If you produce400k a year and only get paid $120k then your a fool.

 

[djh597]

THINK! dont be ignorant, the original poster said he was making the owner 10k a week x 4 weeks = 40,000.

If I produce 40,000 a month then I am bringing into that office a cash flow of $40,000 before expenses and if not its the owners fault for not hiring someone competent to collect the money. I don't care what the expenses are because as an employee I have no control over expenses thats the owner's responsibility.

All I know is that If you produce400k a year and only get paid $120k then your a fool.

You have a lot to learn son. Good luck with the remainder of school.

 

[DentStudent2010]

You have a lot to learn son. Good luck with the remainder of school.

I will! Good luck sleeping at night with your slave labor!

 

[DentStudent2010]

All I know is that If you produce 420k a year and only get paid $120k then your a fool and the dentist you are working for is beyond greedy!!!

 

[mike3kgt]

THINK! dont be ignorant, the original poster said he was making the owner 10k a week x 4 weeks = 40,000.

If I produce 40,000 a month then I am bringing into that office a cash flow of $40,000 before expenses and if not its the owners fault for not hiring someone competent to collect the money. I don't care what the expenses are because as an employee I have no control over expenses thats the owner's responsibility.

All I know is that If you produce400k a year and only get paid $120k then your a fool.

40,000 a month x 12 months = 420,000

420,000 * 30% production/collection = $126,000 gross (assuming you worked every week and only took vacation on weekends)

Sorry man, if you think you should be taking home 300k just because you produce 400k for your senior doc, then you are in for a very very hard reality when you graduate and start looking to get a job (or purchase a practice).

 

[Daurang]

You have a lot to learn son.

Even if you have your own practice and produces $400,000 a year, guess how much you will net at the end of the year to pay youself? $100,000-$150,000. I don't understand why you think you're being ripped off.

 

[mrlantern]

There are a lot of people out there with the intention of building new dental offices and selling them. Some of these proprietors aren't even dentists themselves but just small business investors looking for a quick buck. This includes some of my ex-employers and two of them recently opened new offices on blocks that already have multiple dental clinics.

Before anyone starts giving me flack for living and working in one of the most saturated markets in the country, these 'enterprising' dentists and 'investors' are also setting up new offices in high-demand rural areas in Maine and Texas. So don't think this can't or won't happen elsewhere. Now, this is only what I personally witnessed so I'm sure there's a lot more going on that I don't know about. New dental offices are opening quicklier than other types of businesses.

Does anyone else notice this trend? Why are dentists experiencing this more than physicians or even pharmacies?

 

[charlestweed]

All I know is that If you produce 400k a year and only get paid $120k then your a fool and the dentist you are working for is beyond greedy!!!

This dentist is very smart businessman. Instead of criticizing him for being too greedy, you should learn how to run a business from him. Maybe some day you can run one (or several) successful practices like him.

I guess I am a fool too since the corporate office I currently work at only pays me 20% of my production. I know many new grad orthos who wish they can have my current job….I guess they're fools too.

 

[mrlantern]

Maybe it's that you live in one of the highest price-of-living areas in the country that is simultaneously oversaturated (to extreme levels) with dentists?

That is no excuse for not being paid by an employer. Given that, for me, there was no daily salary guarantee or benefits of any kind, it was highly unethical and unprofessional of him not to pay me my measly commission-based income. I'm just astounded by how they received three resumes for a replacement dentist in under two hours of uploading a craigslist ad.

By the way, this thread isn't about me. It's about the OP.

 

[DrJeff]

All I know is that If you produce 400k a year and only get paid $120k then your a fool and the dentist you are working for is beyond greedy!!!

I don't necessarily agree with that statement. There are plenty of dental practices out there that run with an overhead in the 70-75% range. They may not be the most efficiently run offices, but there are plenty of them.

 

[mike3kgt]

Does anyone else notice this trend? Why are dentists experiencing this more than physicians or even pharmacies?

Unfortunately, there is a growing trend across the country where exactly this is happening. Heck, you talk with many dental students (and some on this thread... haha) who think that "owning several offices would be great because it means lots of $$ and less work!"

Corporatization of dentistry is rapidly increasing and rapidly. I find it nauseating and full of philosophy that production is king over all, including the patient's well-being. Dentistry has been a great profession for many, many years because it has avoided a medical model of small business and instead, focused upon the solo practitioner in a small business providing care to a group of patients in an intimate setting.

The ADA, AGD has been doing quite well in the past few months in being proactive with the health reform debates. I have been pleased with their action (with exception of Medicaid), and I hope that after health reform, they can focus the same amount of energy into promoting solo practitioners or small groups of partners as opposed to corporate. Maybe, just maybe, they'll pull their hands out of the pocket of Delta Dental and start looking out for the GP.

There are many, many factors which have contributed to this increase, but I care not to go into them. mrlantern, your posts have been upbeat and well-written after you have left this previous job... kudos! Go out and find something great and give it another try. Your experiences can only make you stronger and hopefully you can inform others as to the ills of medicaid, DHMOs, and corporate dentistry.

 

[NileBDS]

Great discussion going on here.

 

[NileBDS]

Yes. On the corner of Senter/Tully Rd where I once lived, there's a new small stripmall with FIVE dental offices (among many other stripmalls nearby with many other dental offices). When I look at the census data in 1999 showing California with more dental offices (22,000) than there are car repair shops (20,000), I packed and left the left coast.

Another thing to keep in mind is Cali is an extremely high tax state with extremely unfriendly business environment. The state's small business bankrupcies rose 85% last year. The state itself has been running $20 billion deficit every year for the past couple years. Toyota in Fremont is leaving next month for Texas. Boeing is leaving Long Beach at the end of the year. Grumman Northrop announced today they're leaving. 5000 of the richest wage earners from California also left recently, taking with them $8 billion worth of income tax the state would have had. Keep all that in mind as you return to Cali from dental school to work for Western Dental and Smilecare.

Sobering facts right there !

 

[DentStudent2010]

Even if you have your own practice and produces $400,000 a year, guess how much you will net at the end of the year to pay youself? $100,000-$150,000. I don't understand why you think you're being ripped off.

NO!

We are not talking about if this person owned his own practice and made 400k.

Were discussing that this person went and worked for another dentist who already had a business.

Adding an additional dental associate does not add ass this enormous overhead that you are referring to. The overhead was already there!!!
the new dental associate is adding value and dollars that were not present before.

dont be ignorant!

 

[DentStudent2010]

I don't necessarily agree with that statement. There are plenty of dental practices out there that run with an overhead in the 70-75% range. They may not be the most efficiently run offices, but there are plenty of them.

Then you should not go work for them as they will do exactly what I stated - RIP OFF THE DENTAL ASSOCIATE.


As a dental associate why should I get paid less because my boss is poor at business management???

Think, thats all I ask.

 

[DentStudent2010]

This dentist is very smart businessman. Instead of criticizing him for being too greedy, you should learn how to run a business from him. Maybe some day you can run one (or several) successful practices like him.

I guess I am a fool too since the corporate office I currently work at only pays me 20% of my production. I know many new grad orthos who wish they can have my current job….I guess they’re fools too.

With the majority of new graduate positions paying 30 - 37% of production I see that you already know the answer to your question.

If not Ill answer it. Yes, you are!

 

[DentStudent2010]

All I know is that If you produce 400k a year and only get paid $120k then your a fool and the dentist you are working for is beyond greedy!!!

Do you students really think that if you produce 400k and make 120k that the doctors overhead is 280,000 to have you there?

fools.

 

[DrJeff]

Then you should not go work for them as they will do exactly what I stated - RIP OFF THE DENTAL ASSOCIATE.


As a dental associate why should I get paid less because my boss is poor at business management???

Think, thats all I ask.

While I agree with your point, let me play devil's advocate as a practice owner here.

Why shouldn't I (as the practice owner) make a bit of $$ off the associate since it was I (the practice owner) that built the rooms that the associate works in, spent (likely) years to establish and build the reputation of the practice. You gotta remember, especially if the owner doc is in his/her 50's and started the practice from scratch, right when they got out of d-school/ residency and opened the practice more than likely their 1st year out they didn't make 50k(sure times and fees are different), so that salary of 120k in retrospect sure seems like a good deal to the owner.

This is also why I fully think that it's in the best interest of an associate the vast majority of the time to be paid on a percentage of production or collections and not have a straight salary.

 

[DentStudent2010]

While I agree with your point, let me play devil's advocate as a practice owner here.

Why shouldn't I (as the practice owner) make a bit of $$ off the associate since it was I (the practice owner) that built the rooms that the associate works in, spent (likely) years to establish and build the reputation of the practice. You gotta remember, especially if the owner doc is in his/her 50's and started the practice from scratch, right when they got out of d-school/ residency and opened the practice more than likely their 1st year out they didn't make 50k(sure times and fees are different), so that salary of 120k in retrospect sure seems like a good deal to the owner.

This is also why I fully think that it's in the best interest of an associate the vast majority of the time to be paid on a percentage of production or collections and not have a straight salary.

Oh I agree completely!

however, look at what I said.

You get paid 120k. you just produced 400k.

Id say 280,000 is quite a bit extra to cover a 10/hr assistant, payroll taxes and owner's profit.

There would still be enough for all this as well if the employee was paid 160,000. that would leave 240,000 to cover whatever.


PLEASE NO ONE ELSE POST TO MY QUOTES IF YOU DONT HAVE THE INTELLIGENCE TO THINK THIS THROUGH!

 

[DrJeff]

Do you students really think that if you produce 400k and make 120k that the doctors overhead is 280,000 to have you there?

fools.

Since you apparently know all there is about the business side of dentistry, what do you think the difference in overhead between an associate that is brought into a practice and the owner(s) overhead is???

 

[DrJeff]

Oh I agree completely!

however, look at what I said.

You get paid 120k. you just produced 400k.

Id say 280,000 is quite a bit extra to cover a 10/hr assistant, payroll taxes and owner's profit.

There would still be enough for all this as well if the employee was paid 160,000. that would leave 240,000 to cover whatever.


PLEASE NO ONE ELSE POST TO MY QUOTES IF YOU DONT HAVE THE INTELLIGENCE TO THINK THIS THROUGH!

Okay, are you going to do any fixed/removeable prosth??? Lab fees

Are you going to have the hygienists of the practice see your patients, and are you going to be getting paid from the exam fees?? If so, you're basically paying the hygienists salary while your patient is in her/his chair

Are you going to process the insurance claims yourself, of will more work be created for the front desk staff??

Are you going to need to have additional materials purchased for you and used by you???

Are you going to pay the power company, the water company, the equipment servicing company yourself??

Will the extra hours you'll be using an assistant and/or the new assistant hired for you quialify for the practices health insurance plan/retirement plan/ uniform allowance plan/continuing education plan(yes in many states, assistants need CE too to keep their CDA status) and if so are you going to pay for these???

There's alot more that get paid out of one's collections than just one's salary, some of it is obvious, much of it isn't initially thought of(especially if you're not the one signing the checks to pay for the other ancillary items).

As I've said before, if you're joining a practice as an associate, if the owners DON'T have to build new room(s) for you to practice in, you're overhead will the vast majority of the time be less than the overhead of the practice prior to you joining. However, in most cases you're looking at maybe 10 to 15% less, NOT 40 to 50% less

 

[NOsaintsfan]

Do you students really think that if you produce 400k and make 120k that the doctors overhead is 280,000 to have you there?

fools.

I have some food for thought? Why is it that whenever someone brings up an example of a business person making money people say their greedy or a slavedriver or whatever? What happened to capitalism and the opportunity to make money?

No one is forced to work anywhere. If you decide to sign a contract or engage in employment somewhere then so be it, don't complain about your employer making money. You have a choice!

I think some people forget/never learned the whole reason for business--PROFIT. Thats it...period. Don't confuse profit motive with unethical practice. Most business try to find a balance between serving customers (doing the right thing) and making money. However lets remember that no one (except the government) employes anyone because its the "nice" or "fair" thing to do. Your get offered a job because you will bring value (money) into the business.

I also think people forget the business owners role/entitlement in business. Keep in mind that for all the successful businesses you run across their are many more that didn't make it (ie. went under). As the owner of the business you invest your capital to start the company. By doing so you are taking the risk of losing everything you have put into it, you also DESERVE the reward of profit should your business be successful.

As an employee what have you risked to join the business? Your time however you are paid for your time at an agreed upon rate. You agree to your pay rate BEFORE you risk/devote any time into the business. You deserve and have a right to be paid as an employee. However as unfair as it may seem to some you have and never will have risked as much as the owner did to start the business. This is why you will never and don't deserve to make as much money as the owner. You simply don't have as much on the line (risk) as the owner does.

Just remember every job you will ever have (as an employee) is because you can add value (money) to the business you work for. This value is expected to translate into money in the owners pocket. If the owner of the business didn't EXPECT you to make them money then you would not be offered a job. This is a fact. Whether you agree/choose to accept it is up to you.

 

[charlestweed]

With the majority of new graduate positions paying 30 - 37% of production I see that you already know the answer to your question.

If not Ill answer it. Yes, you are!

Where do you get this info that the MAJORITY of the new grad associates get 30-37%?

Yep, I am a fool….but at least I paid off my student loans. Hopefully, I won't have to worry about mortgage payments when I reach 40. I've seen a couple of dentists who refused to get "low" paying jobs….they set up high end offices ….and they are crying right now.

 

[charlestweed]

This is also why I fully think that it's in the best interest of an associate the vast majority of the time to be paid on a percentage of production or collections and not have a straight salary.

Due to medicaid cut and bad economy, my company recently switched from paying straight salary to paying the associate dentist 23% (I only get 20% because ortho produces a lot more than general....mostly cash and insurance patients). Many associate dentists at this company told me that they prefer getting straight salaries because most of the patients they treat are HMO and medicaid patients….the kind of patients that MRLANTEN usually talks about. Their daily earning fluctuates a lot…one day they only make 100 bucks and the next day they make 500 bucks.

 

[dentwannabe]

I have some food for thought? Why is it that whenever someone brings up an example of a business person making money people say their greedy or a slavedriver or whatever? What happened to capitalism and the opportunity to make money?

No one is forced to work anywhere. If you decide to sign a contract or engage in employment somewhere then so be it, don't complain about your employer making money. You have a choice!

I think some people forget/never learned the whole reason for business--PROFIT. Thats it...period. Don't confuse profit motive with unethical practice. Most business try to find a balance between serving customers (doing the right thing) and making money. However lets remember that no one (except the government) employes anyone because its the "nice" or "fair" thing to do. Your get offered a job because you will bring value (money) into the business.

I also think people forget the business owners role/entitlement in business. Keep in mind that for all the successful businesses you run across their are many more that didn't make it (ie. went under). As the owner of the business you invest your capital to start the company. By doing so you are taking the risk of losing everything you have put into it, you also DESERVE the reward of profit should your business be successful.

As an employee what have you risked to join the business? Your time however you are paid for your time at an agreed upon rate. You agree to your pay rate BEFORE you risk/devote any time into the business. You deserve and have a right to be paid as an employee. However as unfair as it may seem to some you have and never will have risked as much as the owner did to start the business. This is why you will never and don't deserve to make as much money as the owner. You simply don't have as much on the line (risk) as the owner does.

Just remember every job you will ever have (as an employee) is because you can add value (money) to the business you work for. This value is expected to translate into money in the owners pocket. If the owner of the business didn't EXPECT you to make them money then you would not be offered a job. This is a fact. Whether you agree/choose to accept it is up to you.

Well the reason why some people have a difficult time with dentistry being seen through the lens of a business model is that its a healthcare field. Many people do not like the idea of healthcare fields as cold, calculating profit-making machines. After all, we are a society, and people's health is a hard thing to quantify. I'm saying this because a lot of dentistry is medicine. Sure, cosmetic veneers or whitening may be a little different. But in most societies around the world, the "DOCTOR" is someone you go to to feel better. Sure, he MAKES GOOD MONEY because he provides a rare skill. But it is a unique service due to its nature of helping someone feel better medically. I'm clearly not articulating it well enough. But basically, its a different profession from your average "lets make $$$" business scheme.

 

[BiomajorPreDent]

From the ADA 2008 Survey of New Dentists, which is available from the ADA:

(I am pretty sure you need to be a member of the ADA to pull these off the website)

Of the respondants:

11.8% of respondants were on an hourly rate with a mean of $68 an hour with a range of $30 to $187 an hour

18% of respondants were paid an annual salary, mean of $108,610 with a range of $22,000 to $200,000

34.5% of respondants were paid on percent of production. the mean being 32% with a range of 1 to 50%

30.7% of respondants were paid with percent of collections, the mean being 34.3% with a range of 5 to 60%

The other respondants was listed as "other"

This is from Table 32: Income Information for Employees/Associates in their Primary Practice, 2007

 

[NOsaintsfan]

Well the reason why some people have a difficult time with dentistry being seen through the lens of a business model is that its a healthcare field. Many people do not like the idea of healthcare fields as cold, calculating profit-making machines.

I think I know what your trying to relay however you need to take reality into account. I know many people think healthcare should be altruistically driven and profit shouldn't be part of the equation, but this isn't the reality of the world we live in.

Also get the notion out of your mind that to seek a profit means that your cold and money hungry. If you don't like the current system of providing health care then get involved. Vote, contact your congressman or senator and work to get socalized medicine that doesn't allow for individual owners of medical offices. This in my mind would be a horrible thing however if that is your view of how things should be then do something about it. If not then understand how business (yes dentistry is a business) works in this country.

The OP is an actual dentist who is an employee of another dental office. As crazy as it may sound the place he works for is a BUSINESS and it is there to serve patients and make MONEY. That is reality.

I'm not trying to be cold or combative but I think people need to get a better idea of the real world. There are places where you can practice dentistry/medicine and not worry about profit or your employer making money off of you. Im refering to community health clinics and most would be more than happy to offer licensed professionals employment.

If you are employeed by a business then you will have to understand how business works (at least on a basic level). If not you will always be bitter or disgruntled because your employer makes money off of you.

 

[DentStudent2010]

Where do you get this info that the MAJORITY of the new grad associates get 30-37%?

Yep, I am a fool….but at least I paid off my student loans. Hopefully, I won't have to worry about mortgage payments when I reach 40. I’ve seen a couple of dentists who refused to get "low" paying jobs….they set up high end offices ….and they are crying right now.

Well Ive seen dental students who didnt take low paying jobs and then got very nice higher salary positions.

thats great you paid off your loans, if you would have gotten a better job it would have taken less time!

 

[DentStudent2010]

Due to medicaid cut and bad economy, my company recently switched from paying straight salary to paying the associate dentist 23% (I only get 20% because ortho produces a lot more than general....mostly cash and insurance patients). Many associate dentists at this company told me that they prefer getting straight salaries because most of the patients they treat are HMO and medicaid patients….the kind of patients that MRLANTEN usually talks about. Their daily earning fluctuates a lot…one day they only make 100 bucks and the next day they make 500 bucks.

dude if your an orthodontist then quit chiming in on our GP threads!

 

[dentwannabe]

I think I know what your trying to relay however you need to take reality into account. I know many people think healthcare should be altruistically driven and profit shouldn't be part of the equation, but this isn't the reality of the world we live in.

Also get the notion out of your mind that to seek a profit means that your cold and money hungry. If you don't like the current system of providing health care then get involved. Vote, contact your congressman or senator and work to get socalized medicine that doesn't allow for individual owners of medical offices. This in my mind would be a horrible thing however if that is your view of how things should be then do something about it. If not then understand how business (yes dentistry is a business) works in this country.

The OP is an actual dentist who is an employee of another dental office. As crazy as it may sound the place he works for is a BUSINESS and it is there to serve patients and make MONEY. That is reality.

I'm not trying to be cold or combative but I think people need to get a better idea of the real world. There are places where you can practice dentistry/medicine and not worry about profit or your employer making money off of you. Im refering to community health clinics and most would be more than happy to offer licensed professionals employment.

If you are employeed by a business then you will have to understand how business works (at least on a basic level). If not you will always be bitter or disgruntled because your employer makes money off of you.

Where did I say profit shouldn't be part of the equation? Also, where did I say making a profit makes you cold? I didn't say either.

What I said was that there is a difference between being BUSINESS-DRIVEN and CARE-DRIVEN. In business driven, you will cut corners and screw patients (i.e. you wouldnt treat them like that if they were your dad) with the sole goal to make a bigger profit. In care-driven, you will administer care while at the same time making a healthy profit (keeping costs down, etc). Obviously, theres 2 extremes, with moderation being key.

Dentistry SHOULD NOT be a business like any regular business (car dealership, dollar store). Your sole interest should not be making money. Historically, in ALL societies, the 'doctor' has been one who cares for the human body. Due to medicine actually starting to work efficiently in the early 20th century, doctors started making good money using new technology and medicine. To say that - BAM - now its 2010 and we pop up on the scene with a drill and a credit card machine is ignoring the traditional role our profession has played in society.

 

[Slack3r]

Dentistry SHOULD NOT be a business like any regular business (car dealership, dollar store). Your sole interest should not be making money. Historically, in ALL societies, the 'doctor' has been one who cares for the human body. Due to medicine actually starting to work efficiently in the early 20th century, doctors started making good money using new technology and medicine. To say that - BAM - now its 2010 and we pop up on the scene with a drill and a credit card machine is ignoring the traditional role our profession has played in society.

Yawn. 🙄

 

[Buckethead]

Yawn. 🙄

Also, yawn. Quite contagious, really.

In response to the instigator of the yawns, health professionals in general have traditionally been providers for others rather than themselves, this much is true. This tradition is as old as Hippocrates where physicians roamed cities and nations offering their services for small fees, meals, and lodging, but we've come a long way since then to arrive where we are now -- capitalism. To me, capitalism in healthcare is about looking out for number one, yourself, while taking care not to harm number two, others. This translates to making a tidy profit while not sacrificing the quality of care too much or skimping on the pay or benefits for your employees too much.

This system can be executed equitably such that all patients are able to afford some tier of healthcare while all healthcare workers can go home happy. The problem is that some of the "bosses" from all sectors of healthcare are getting a bit too greedy and hurting everyone else. The solution is not reverting back to the old system where healthcare providers ignore their own needs to cater to those of others. If you are that altruistic, I welcome you to volunteer all of your time on mission trips and pro bono work while subsiting on the food, lodging, and small fees like those of the "tradition" you mentioned did. Otherwise, run your business (also known as a practice) in such a manner that it is both profitable and fair so that at the end of the day you know you aren't a part of the problem, but you can still pay your bills and invest the surplus towards an early retirement.

 

[NOsaintsfan]

What I said was that there is a difference between being BUSINESS-DRIVEN and CARE-DRIVEN. In business driven, you will cut corners and screw patients (i.e. you wouldnt treat them like that if they were your dad) with the sole goal to make a bigger profit. In care-driven, you will administer care while at the same time making a healthy profit (keeping costs down, etc). Obviously, theres 2 extremes, with moderation being key.

Dentistry SHOULD NOT be a business like any regular business (car dealership, dollar store). Your sole interest should not be making money. Historically, in ALL societies, the 'doctor' has been one who cares for the human body. Due to medicine actually starting to work efficiently in the early 20th century, doctors started making good money using new technology and medicine. To say that - BAM - now its 2010 and we pop up on the scene with a drill and a credit card machine is ignoring the traditional role our profession has played in society.

I agree with your sentiments however I take exception with your idea that if a business is operated with the idea of making profit this means they will "cut corners and screw patients".

Dentistry and medicine is already not like any regular business. Have you ever heard of malpractice? Its there as one form of protection for consumers (patients) from the evil greedy care giver that cuts corners to only make a profit.

There is another concept in health care that your missing that applies to most business as well. Its the force of competition. For example why do some people buy one car brand over another? Perceived difference in quality? Preference? Style? These are factors that work in the business of dentistry as well. Believe me word of mouth accounts for alot. Just as no one is forced to work anywhere in this country, consumers (patients) are not forced to go to any specific health care provider.

If your a good dentist and do quality work word will spread. By the same token if your a shotty dentist and "cut corners and screw patients" then word will spread of this as well. This is no different than most businesses. However since dentistry is not like most businesses you also can/will get sued. This can lead to higher practice costs (increased malpractice premiums) or possible revoke of your liscense.

Bringing this full circle back to the OP and the origional track of the thread. You didn't take the DAT or the step exams without studying did you? When you take a job make sure you study the pay averages for the region and have a good idea of what your worth before you agree to an employment contract. Once you agree to work for someone don't be upset when you find out how much you "could have got" or how much your boss is making off of you. YOU HAD A CHOICE.

 

[omaralt]

dude if your an orthodontist then quit chiming in on our GP threads!

I love how the most arrogant and idiotic posts are coming from somebody that's still in school. While i agree that producing 400k and making 120 is a little on the low side, it's not a crazy number. If u produced 400 but the practice only collected 380k (95%, not a un-realistic number) then 33% of the 380 is roughly 120. That's a realistic number and u need to get uses to it before u graduate. The big bucks are in owning ur own practice not as an associate. Work as an associate for asl short time to get ur speed and confidience up and then buy a practice.

 

[DentStudent2010]

Even if you have your own practice and produces $400,000 a year, guess how much you will net at the end of the year to pay youself? $100,000-$150,000. I don't understand why you think you're being ripped off.

Because I am talking about an associate position and not owning my own practice.

you need to discuss the subject at hand and not add extra variables to make your case correct.

I am speaking of associate only! Dont be ignorant as well!!!

As an associate you don't get to expense your clothes, car, fund extra retirement as an owner. You have to do what the owner says and work with who the owner hires. This requires a premium in my opinion!

 

[DentStudent2010]

I love how the most arrogant and idiotic posts are coming from somebody that's still in school. While i agree that producing 400k and making 120 is a little on the low side, it's not a crazy number. If u produced 400 but the practice only collected 380k (95%, not a un-realistic number) then 33% of the 380 is roughly 120. That's a realistic number and u need to get uses to it before u graduate. The big bucks are in owning ur own practice not as an associate. Work as an associate for asl short time to get ur speed and confidience up and then buy a practice.

Thank you for agreeing with me then trying to get rude. Now whos the idiot? If your so busy with your practice then quit posting on this website.

 

[DentStudent2010]

I love how the most arrogant and idiotic posts are coming from somebody that's still in school. While i agree that producing 400k and making 120 is a little on the low side, it's not a crazy number. If u produced 400 but the practice only collected 380k (95%, not a un-realistic number) then 33% of the 380 is roughly 120. That's a realistic number and u need to get uses to it before u graduate. The big bucks are in owning ur own practice not as an associate. Work as an associate for asl short time to get ur speed and confidience up and then buy a practice.

You call my posts idiotic?

Learn how to spell!

 

[lotexigeus]

I love how the most arrogant and idiotic posts are coming from somebody that's still in school. While i agree that producing 400k and making 120 is a little on the low side, it's not a crazy number. If u produced 400 but the practice only collected 380k (95%, not a un-realistic number) then 33% of the 380 is roughly 120. That's a realistic number and u need to get uses to it before u graduate. The big bucks are in owning ur own practice not as an associate. Work as an associate for asl short time to get ur speed and confidience up and then buy a practice.

ding ding ding

 

[mike3kgt]

Because I am talking about an associate position and not owning my own practice.

you need to discuss the subject at hand and not add extra variables to make your case correct.

I am speaking of associate only! Dont be ignorant as well!!!

As an associate you don't get to expense your clothes, car, fund extra retirement as an owner. You have to do what the owner says and work with who the owner hires. This requires a premium in my opinion!

Seriously dude, we are trying to have an intelligent discussion here and the diarrhea coming from your posts will just close the thread. Please stop. You are wrong, simply wrong, and clueless. Sorry but you need to do some legitimate research (NOT ON SDN) to figure out exactly how the real world works. Call up a practice broker and schedule a lunch. If he/she wants to put you into an office, they'll be happy to discuss the topics you have such a strong opinion of. You will be very, very surprised of exactly how things work out there, and if you still don't get it then, you will be forced to start-up or purchase a practice, which, I hope you get it then because if you don't, you may want to switch careers...

 

[Oracle DMD]

 

[omaralt]

Thank you for agreeing with me then trying to get rude. Now whos the idiot? If your so busy with your practice then quit posting on this website.

You call my posts idiotic?

Learn how to spell!

you have got to be the biggest douche/****** i have ever had the pleasure with arguing on the internet with.

1- i didn't agree with you. I said that it's a little on the low side, but it's the realistic range that a new associate can expect. good luck getting something more when you graduate

2- who said i own a practice? who said i was very busy with my practice?

3- the way i spell (i did post from my iphone so forgive my grammer) has anything to do with this discussion?

4- i feel sorry for the people around you

 

[anschutz1913]

you have got to be the biggest douche/****** i have ever had the pleasure with arguing on the internet with.

1- i didn't agree with you. I said that it's a little on the low side, but it's the realistic range that a new associate can expect. good luck getting something more when you graduate

2- who said i own a practice? who said i was very busy with my practice?

3- the way i spell (i did post from my iphone so forgive my grammer) has anything to do with this discussion?

4- i feel sorry for the people around you

HAHAHAHA this is hilarious! Burned! I think we can all agree some dental STUDENT took an undergrad class in accounting or something and is suddenly the business expert.

 

[jaiceman]

....

 

[Oracle DMD]

HAHAHAHA this is hilarious! Burned! I think we can all agree some dental STUDENT took an undergrad class in accounting or something and is suddenly the business expert.

you may need kneepads or other protective gear if you keep this up. "oh dentists are the greatest! 😍 dental students are dumb! haha!"

 

[anschutz1913]

you may need kneepads or other protective gear if you keep this up. "oh dentists are the greatest! 😍 dental students are dumb! haha!"

i take it your feelings are still hurt ....I apologize

 

[Daurang]

Obama yesterday announced spending $2.3 billion to create 17,000 new "green jobs." That's $135,000 per job! Maybe mrlantern can apply for this well paying job. Which union do I join if I want this job?