I got in to both M.D. and D.O.

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eimaise

eimaise

eimaise
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I got in to both VCU (M.D.) in Richmond, Virginia as well as the Virginia College of Osteopathic Medicine (the D.O. school partnered with Virginia Tech) in Blacksburg, Virginia.

I am impressed with both schools, but don't know what to do.

So what would you do?

I am a Virginia native with a wife who will be working as a nurse.

I am considering ENT or Orthopedic Surgery as a specialty
 
M.D. they have an "easier" time in obtaining competitive residencies compared to D.O.'s - not that they can't be an ENT or an ortho, but it may give you a small edge however minor that may be.
 
Well, do you want to be a M.D. or a D.O.? Silly question, I know, but from what I understand, D.O.'s tend to match into primary care. With the specialties you mentioned, you probably would want to go M.D. However, it's not impossible to get a M.D. residency with a D.O.

If I were you I'd do some serious reflecting on my shadowing experiences (or shadow more if you need to), talk to current M.D. and D.O. students, and compare the curriculums of both schools to see which is a better fit.
 
eimaise said:
I got in to both VCU (M.D.) in Richmond, Virginia as well as the Virginia College of Osteopathic Medicine (the D.O. school partnered with Virginia Tech) in Blacksburg, Virginia.

I am impressed with both schools, but don't know what to do.

So what would you do?

I am a Virginia native with a wife who will be working as a nurse.

I am considering ENT or Orthopedic Surgery as a specialty
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Honestly, my orthopedic surgeon is a DO and he is amazing... So its really up to you and what you want to be. Do some research into the different philosophies. DO's have more of a whole person approach... They believe in treating the mind, body and spirit together. The orthopedic surgeon I mentioned above made a house call when my brother though he had broken his arm and had a wrestling tournament the next day... Don't know too many MD's that will do that
 
Neither ENT or ORS is out of the question at MD or DO. It's said to be easier MD, but keep in mind there are a number (52 total ENT+ORS) of residencies for DO only (http://www.opportunities.osteopathic.org/search/search.cfm) that are not open to MD graduates. These are in addition to a few hundred spots in allopathic centers. Some people will tell you that there are MD programs closed to DO but it's largely hearsay and anecdotal.

Whichever you think will give you a better education, test preparation, clinical experience, and lowest debt load (if applicable) would be your best choice.

A former coworker of mind chose DO over MD and has been very happy except for some of her rotations that left something to be desired. She characterized it as a problem of the school focusing on primary care and designing rotations around that goal. I do know of at least 2 residents in a competitive subspecialty from VCOM. Anecdotal, yes, but proof that it does happen.
 
ENT has become extremely competitive, more competitive than ortho. I believe that your chances of matching into ENT would be better with an MD. I really do not buy the whole mind, body, spirit argument. Sounds a little woo woo to me.
 
searun said:
ENT has become extremely competitive, more competitive than ortho. I believe that your chances of matching into ENT would be better with an MD. I really do not buy the whole mind, body, spirit argument. Sounds a little woo woo to me.
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woo woo? All it really means is treating the person and not the symptom
 
searun said:
ENT has become extremely competitive, more competitive than ortho. I believe that your chances of matching into ENT would be better with an MD. I really do not buy the whole mind, body, spirit argument. Sounds a little woo woo to me.
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Not really woo woo at all. All it means its balance. Mind-try to learn some stuff, expand your knowledge. Body-Dont sit on ur ass all day learning, go for a run or lift some weights. Spirit-dont sit around studying or exercising all the time, go hang out with some friends or do stuff that you have fun doing.

Sounds pretty common sense, but when you put it into the construct of mind,body and spirit its just sticks with you more.

Now apply this to your patients. Body might be healing but how bout their spirit or their mind? Its easy to overlook when you have a hundred things to do.

As for the OP: Also consider whether you want to learn OMM. If surgery is your thing it may help you. There have been studies done showing that OMM helps patients leave the hospital sooner post surgery.

If its not something your interested in I would say whichever school is cheaper.

Either way you can get where you want to from either path.
 
rhesuspieces said:
Well, do you want to be a M.D. or a D.O.? Silly question, I know, but from what I understand, D.O.'s tend to match into primary care. With the specialties you mentioned, you probably would want to go M.D. However, it's not impossible to get a M.D. residency with a D.O.

If I were you I'd do some serious reflecting on my shadowing experiences (or shadow more if you need to), talk to current M.D. and D.O. students, and compare the curriculums of both schools to see which is a better fit.
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When will this bullsh*t END? 👎thumbdown👎
 
Doesn't really matter but go with the one you are sure you will be happest with and can be a strong successful student. Do you have friend close to any school? Which school has the better library? Ask a few med student what they think of the schools what could be better or worse and there experences? Is there any good help studying for the USMLE or COMPLEX exams? Housing? Cost of the school? Where to spend down time?
Dude there has to be something.... Does M.D. or D.O. sound better behind your name?

You do understand that most people on this site would kill to have your issue.
 
Go MD. Make it easier on yourself. Just because you could do everything with a DO, why put yourself at a disadvantage in terms of future options (however small that disadvantage may be)?

The exception being that you really believe in the philosophy (e.g, OMM, etc). If you do, then of course you should go DO.
 
If you are interested in competitive residencies, you are putting yourself at a major disadvantage by going to a DO school. This one is a no-brainer. Go to VCU.
 
OtoHNS said:
If you are interested in competitive residencies, you are putting yourself at a major disadvantage by going to a DO school. This one is a no-brainer. Go to VCU.
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i would listen to the ENT..
 
OtoHNS said:
If you are interested in competitive residencies, you are putting yourself at a major disadvantage by going to a DO school. This one is a no-brainer. Go to VCU.
Click to expand...
OP, this is straight from the horse's mouth. Just sayin'.
 
denco88 said:
woo woo? All it really means is treating the person and not the symptom
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Oh, thanks, so DOs treat the person and MDs just treat the symptoms. Really? Sorry, I am not buying it.
 
guys/gals, we can be as PC and Kumbaya on these forums as we want, but the fact is that in the big bad world, DO's do still face obstacles to obtaining competitive residencies. It's not that they won't let you apply, but they don't look on your application as favorably. It's a fact.

I mean, seriously. An attending just told you so.
 
gravitywave said:
guys/gals, we can be as PC and Kumbaya on these forums as we want, but the fact is that in the big bad world, DO's do still face obstacles to obtaining competitive residencies. It's not that they won't let you apply, but they don't look on your application as favorably. It's a fact.

I mean, seriously. An attending just told you so.
Click to expand...
Cue JaggerPlate to run in and argue about that...
 
gravitywave said:
guys/gals, we can be as PC and Kumbaya on these forums as we want, but the fact is that in the big bad world, DO's do still face obstacles to obtaining competitive residencies. It's not that they won't let you apply, but they don't look on your application as favorably. It's a fact.

I mean, seriously. An attending just told you so.
Click to expand...


Fascinating... Why is that I wonder?

Do attendings and residency overseers view the medical education at a DO school as sub-par?

It seemed to me at my interview at VCOM that they give you great classes and excellent clerkship opportunities.

Is it the philosophy difference that DO's have regarding OMM and the musculoskeletal system?
 
Well medicine is a very conservative profession. Certain areas within medicine even more so (eg surgery). They are going to prefer "their own" first. Some specialties more than others (anes, pm&r, em) are going to be open. Others (surgical specialties, some other competitive ones) are going to be very hard. They are hard already but they'd be even harder. Many have DO only residencies but they are often in either less desirable locations and mostly not in big time academic centers.

Now I want to do md/phd and academic medicine and maybe you don't care. But consider this: most people change their minds. If I change my mind at a md school, I won't be at a disadvantage if I want to do community based family practice. But if I went to DO, and wanted to do academic ENT, I would definitely have a disadvantage.

Is it fair? No. DOs learn the same and if they've taken the USMLEs, they should be compared directly with MD students. In many cases they are.

But in plenty of cases, they are not. That's a fact, so it doesn't make sense to disadvantage yourself unnecessarily.
 
eimaise said:
Fascinating... Why is that I wonder?

Do attendings and residency overseers view the medical education at a DO school as sub-par?

It seemed to me at my interview at VCOM that they give you great classes and excellent clerkship opportunities.

Is it the philosophy difference that DO's have regarding OMM and the musculoskeletal system?
Click to expand...

Its because back in the day the matriculating stats were alot lower than the MD schools. Now that gap has closed considerably.

I think that in 10 years these threads wont even exist anymore.

As for OMM, there arent a ton of studies on it, but more are currently being done. When I first started learning it I thought it was really dumb. Then I saw it used on actual patients with real dysfunctions (instead of the other people in my class) and heard them say how much better they felt after being treated. Changed my mind about omm.

Also some people take omm breaks during while studying. Its great after being hunched over and sitting for so damn long.

In the end its up to you. It may be a little easier to get into competitive specialties, but they are still competitive even if you goto an MD school.
So go whichever place you feel comfortable at or whichever is cheaper. If you think it will give you more piece of mind to goto the MD school then you should go there.
 
Look closely at the third year rotation schedule. How many times will you have to move? Does the DO school have rotations in ENT or ortho? How will your wife feel if you are gone most of third and/or fourth years? Are there research opportunities at the DO school, because you will need to have done research to match into ENT or ortho.
Of course, you can change your mind about your career plans and these questions may become moot.
 
Dr Oops said:
As for OMM, there arent a ton of studies on it, but more are currently being done. When I first started learning it I thought it was really dumb. Then I saw it used on actual patients with real dysfunctions (instead of the other people in my class) and heard them say how much better they felt after being treated. Changed my mind about omm.
Click to expand...
I'm sure you'd hear the same from patients who visited chiropractors, homeopaths, naturopaths, faith healers etc....
 
WorldChanger36 said:
Doesn't really matter but go with the one you are sure you will be happest with and can be a strong successful student. Do you have friend close to any school? Which school has the better library? Ask a few med student what they think of the schools what could be better or worse and there experences? Is there any good help studying for the USMLE or COMPLEX exams? Housing? Cost of the school? Where to spend down time?
Dude there has to be something.... Does M.D. or D.O. sound better behind your name?

You do understand that most people on this site would kill to have your issue.
Click to expand...

You should edit the D.O. stuff, save this, and bring it back again in March/April when these threads begin to pop up: "HARVAHAHAHAHD VS. J. HOPPNIKS: Can't decide! Help! Which one is better?! S.O.S! Thinking about academic ROAD specialty!"
 
article-1318246-0B716BF0000005DC-815_470x636.jpg
 
eimaise said:
I got in to both VCU (M.D.) in Richmond, Virginia as well as the Virginia College of Osteopathic Medicine (the D.O. school partnered with Virginia Tech) in Blacksburg, Virginia.

I am impressed with both schools, but don't know what to do.

So what would you do?

I am a Virginia native with a wife who will be working as a nurse.

I am considering ENT or Orthopedic Surgery as a specialty
Click to expand...

I vote VCU, but I may be a bit biased since I went to VCU. I personally feel there is a huge difference between VCOM and VCU based on education and what the school can do for you.

First look at where they do rotations. VCU has its own hospital attached to the medical school that is almost 800 beds, is a level 1 trauma center, is the major tertiary care center for central virginia and is a NCI designated cancer center. They have been running a med school for >150 years. VCOM can not say the same thing.

In terms of what the school can do for you just look at the respective match lists. IM is a good indicator of what you can get from a given school.

VCOM's IM list included only a few decent matches (VCU and wake forrest)
VCU's IM list included 2 to Duke, hopkins hospital, Yale, as well as emory, Pitt, Hopkins Bayview, chicago, 3 to UMD, cedars sinai and of course VCU

Personally I don't think there is much of a competition.
 
MD.

this does sound a tad bit troll-y
 
wanderer100 said:
I'm sure you'd hear the same from patients who visited chiropractors, homeopaths, naturopaths, faith healers etc....
Click to expand...

gettheleadout said:
Agreed, I think basing the effectiveness of procedures solely on how the patient "feels" (i.e. how strong the placebo effect happens to be) is a bad method of judgment.
Click to expand...

I never said you have to believe it. As for it being a placebo effect, there are some studies that have shown patients improved after omm.

One Study showed patients needed less postoperative morphine when combined w/ OMM. Another Showed that pts w/ post operative illeus left the hospital sooner when they received OMM.

Sorry to derail the thread. 'Don't Want this to turn into the usual crap
 
IvyHopeful20 said:
Well medicine is a very conservative profession. Certain areas within medicine even more so (eg surgery). They are going to prefer "their own" first. Some specialties more than others (anes, pm&r, em) are going to be open. Others (surgical specialties, some other competitive ones) are going to be very hard. They are hard already but they'd be even harder. Many have DO only residencies but they are often in either less desirable locations and mostly not in big time academic centers.

Now I want to do md/phd and academic medicine and maybe you don't care. But consider this: most people change their minds. If I change my mind at a md school, I won't be at a disadvantage if I want to do community based family practice. But if I went to DO, and wanted to do academic ENT, I would definitely have a disadvantage.

Is it fair? No. DOs learn the same and if they've taken the USMLEs, they should be compared directly with MD students. In many cases they are.

But in plenty of cases, they are not. That's a fact, so it doesn't make sense to disadvantage yourself unnecessarily.
Click to expand...

the_more_you_know.jpg
 
eimaise said:
I got in to both VCU (M.D.) in Richmond, Virginia as well as the Virginia College of Osteopathic Medicine (the D.O. school partnered with Virginia Tech) in Blacksburg, Virginia.

I am impressed with both schools, but don't know what to do.

So what would you do?
Click to expand...

I personally would attend the school that's 150+ years old (read generations of alumni connections), in a city, with the huge hospital, and 70+ residency/fellowship programs, including the two I am tentatively interested in.

I would avoid the new school, miles from anywhere, with 40 affiliated training sites.

I would avoid any school with a dress code and mandatory attendance like the plague.
 
I would choose VCU. If i were you. You want to do orthopedic surgery or ENT, not too much OMT involved there. Also they tend to be highly competitive and the fact is that it will be easier with an MD school. Your wife is a working nurse and i can't think of a better place to be then MCV (they have the best nursing program)- so if your wife decides to further her education, the school is there. I choose a DO school over an MD, well because it was cheap and i knew i wanted to do primary care (hospitalist). I knew my chances would be the same and OMT seemed cool I agree with the whole philosophy thing to, but that isn't copyrighted (many MDs follow it and many DOs don't). So you don't have to go to a DO school to ingrain it in you. So again VCU, plus i went there for undergrad and i loved it, so take it for what it is. Best of luck and IM me if you have any more questions. Also what is up with everyone wanting to do ortho. I have like 30 ppl in our class who want ortho and so on and it seems nonsensical to come to a DO school to do that :-/
 
a winner is you said:
1. MD
2. 95% sure this is an intentional troll thread
Click to expand...

Well, considering I asked the question because I feel like it is truly a difficult decision, I can confirm that you are 95% wrong that this is not trolling.

I honestly don't even know what trolling is Haha, but I think it's something bad.

I appreciate all the good responses to my questions (The answer I quoted was not one of the good ones)

I was truly looking for FACTS and data about the two schools and what other people might do in my situation. I am torn between the two because there seem to be lots of pros and cons.

One thing about VCOM that impressed me was there commitment to outreach in appalachia and central america. I also liked their systems-based block schedule and the location is so much better (I would choose Blacksburg over Richmond any day) because I do not like cities as much.

Plus, it seems that 40+ sites at VCOM is more than enough to do clerkships at. Why would you need more than 40 as if that weren't enough? (someone mentioned this earlier in the thread).

I do like the fact that VCU has the hospital right there. That is huge.

But I feel that I am getting such a mixed report about specializing. All the D.O. faculty say that there is no problem going into any specialty you want. In fact, they emphasize the fact that you actually have MORE options than M.D.'s do because of all the so-called "osteopathic-only" residencies.

I have this feeling that if I posted my original question in the "pre-osteopathic" thread I would have gotten almost 99% of the people saying "Go DO!"

So maybe it is all just perspective.

You all have given me a lot to think about!
 
I think some MDs, especially older ones, still have a bias against DOs, at least to a greater degree than the discussions on SDN would reflect. I suspect some portion of them would not articulate this bias but may still consider it when making any sort of decisions (hiring, acceptance for residency or other programs, whatever). Basically, I'm not saying DOs face a ton of discrimination or stigma, but I think the picture SDN gives ("there's no stigma whatsoever, how dare you even question whether DOs are as good as MDs, you troll!") is not a complete reflection of reality.

But those are just unsupported ramblings about the gut feelings of someone who hasn't been accepted to medical school yet... not something that in short supply on SDN.

As always, what really matters is outcomes. Do data exist for how MDs and DOs do in the MD match, especially for more competitive specialties?

Personally, in this situation I wouldn't ever make a choice which has some questionable, murky, likely unquantifiable possibility of limiting my future career options (DO over MD as someone interested in competitive specialties).

And I don't buy the whole DOs are more holistic thing as a good argument. You can become a MD and be a great, caring physician who treats his/her patients with dignity and keeps nonbiological contributions to health in mind, or you can be a DO who never uses any OMM or any of the DO "extras" and exemplifies the wrong approach to medicine just as well as the worst of the MDs. I think the person, not the philosophy of the school doing the training, is the most important factor with regards to your overall style of practice and how "holistic" of a physician you become (whatever that means, anyway).
 
eimaise said:
I am considering ENT or Orthopedic Surgery as a specialty
Click to expand...

OP, do you see yourself doing a fellowship after you complete residency? Would you prefer to work as a community doctor or go academic? Just a premed talking, but I would think both of these factors make a difference. I've never heard of the AOA having any ortho or ENT fellowships (I could totally be wrong here).
 
Sigh. When will this end!?

If I had a choice between MD and DO, I'd go DO route, simple! Being an MD is so overrated these days😛
 
Warning, personal opinion and anecdotal evidence to follow: 😉

I have friends applying DO and MD. I personally applied only MD this cycle because of a few things

1) Out of the two hospitals I work with in my current job, when asking questions in my original pursuit of medical school I found a lot of (surely unwarranted) bias against DO (and while some of these docs/nurses were old, most were 30s/40s).

2) My husband is from Austria and if we ever move back to Europe I want to make sure my degree is recognized.

Had I not been accepted this cycle I planned on applying to both next year because I personally had no problem with the DO system, but I thought due to the above issues MD would be the best choice for me, personally.

I think there are several good arguments for both but in the end you have to choose what is best for you, not everyone on SDN. Good luck.
 
gujuDoc said:
Yeah the only way I'd go DO over MD if both were in my hand is if I really absolutely felt that school or its DO philosophy fit me better.

But I don't believe in OMT so I'm not sure I'd go DO. I'd say you should go to VCU. Like others pointed out, it is an older, more reputed, more highly connected school with reputation that will help in getting residency of choice. The sad truth is that a lot of DOs don't use OMT so the point of going to a DO school is defeated. I would choose VCU any day over such especially as this school is new even at that and not like PCOM or Nova which have been around for a while as far as DO schools with reputation go.

On a side note, I thought Virginia Tech opened up a MD school? Was it a DO school instead or do they have both affiliated with them?
Click to expand...
VaTech has an MD school (in roanoke i think) and VCOM is the DO school which is STRONGLY affiliated because it's private.
 
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