I hate PBL

[deleted80996]

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I `ve start PBl session about 2 month ago and I hate it .Attending it is a stress for me.I`m quiet along the session.In addition ,the PBL is evaluate whether you are active or not for viva.I don`t know what to do.Anyone can help me out???

 

[DoctorFunk]

I don`t know what to do.Anyone can help me out???

You know what you just did with the keyboard? You know...transforming thoughts into symbols that others can understand and respond to? Well, when I participate in a PBL session, I find a good start is to go ahead and transform my thoughts into words that others can understand and respond to.

Seriously though, what else can you do for a PBL session than prepare for the material in advance of the session and force yourself to make points, no matter how obvious or ridiculous they are.

 

[Ezekiel20]

I `ve start PBl session about 2 month ago and I hate it .Attending it is a stress for me.I`m quiet along the session.In addition ,the PBL is evaluate whether you are active or not for viva.I don`t know what to do.Anyone can help me out???

Is PBL a major part of the program at your school?

I am studying at Sydney University (in Australia of course) and PBL is THE way to learn. From week 1, we get given a new PBL case each week, and the prac classes and lectures revolve around the case of the week.

I quite enjoy the PBL based approach, since it allows me to learn things in context, rather than learning for the sake of learning. The important thing though, is to make sure we learn around our PBL case as well. For example, if the PBL case of the week was asthma, we must do some self-directed learning on atopy, hypersensitivity and immunology.

As per your question, I think it would be a good idea to do read ahead so you go in knowing your stuff already. That way the PBL can be a way of reinforcing what you know, not learning new things.

Regards

 

[superdood68]

you should have looked at the school's curriculum before you took the acceptance.

 

[ear-ache]

you should have looked at the school's curriculum before you took the acceptance.

Easy... No one has any idea what PBL experience is really like until your immersed in it.



I thought PBL would be cool; a great way to learn the material and say out of lecture halls. Instead it was mostly people who wanted to monopolize the discussions to share their own personal experiences about medical topic 'X' and inflate their own fragile egos in the process. It was painful – putting a lot of hard work & research into your topic/objective only to have your fellow group members spend 30sec copying & pasting Harison’s Online. But I survived my two years of it and you will too. Just suck it up and get through it. The clinical years are soooooo worth the pain of PBL, and besides, many PBL programs have higher USMLE scores than traditional programs.

 

[gclax30]

Easy... No one has any idea what PBL experience is really like until your immersed in it.



I thought PBL would be cool; a great way to learn the material and say out of lecture halls. Instead it was mostly people who wanted to monopolize the discussions to share their own personal experiences about medical topic 'X' and inflate their own fragile egos in the process. It was painful – putting a lot of hard work & research into your topic/objective only to have your fellow group members spend 30sec copying & pasting Harison’s Online. But I survived my two years of it and you will too. Just suck it up and get through it. The clinical years are soooooo worth the pain of PBL, and besides, many PBL programs have higher USMLE scores than traditional programs.

I totally agree. Every third year student that went through PBL has said the same thing to me. I'm in my second year of PBL and I've never been more frustrated, especially with boards just around the corner. I routinely get marked down for not participating enough and blah blah blah but I'm not going to make myself into a gunner just to get a decent grade. I would say participate when and where you can, even if it is just a little each day, and just make sure you nail the content exam. If you stay out of the drama and the BS of the group, the faculty members will remember that and give you props later on for being way more mature than the stupid gunners. Good luck.

 

[beary]

PBL totally sucks. I don't have any advice how to get through it except to hang in there. I am an M4 and we still have PBL-like activities, though with a different name.

 

[Blake]

Seems like our PBL is slightly different. You get graded on your PBL performance ? We only get either ''genius/great/good/needs to speak a bit more'' kind of comments. Is there a numerical grade in some PBL schools ?

Anyway, from my albeit limited PBL experience, people who never speak are either incredibly shy, still drunk from last night med party, or they just don't know the material well enough. (I can hear the flames coming right at me. *ducks* ). I'll admit that I end up speaking a lot during my PBL sessions, but here's the thing, it's all a matter of respect and common sense, which doesn't seem to be that common lately. Look, if we're all supposed to talk about the pathophysiology of a disease and there's like a 10 second silence, of course I'll start talking to break the ice and get this thing started. And then magically, everyone starts adding their piece of info and we're working as a group.

If a subject was discussed superficially, me and others will try to get in deeper into the material. Whenever someone speaks, you let them talk and when they're done, you can ask more questions or add some details. It's not about being a gunner, it's about doing your job as a med student. Of course some people will perform better than some others, but hey, that's life. There's still a way for everyone to be a winner in this PBL experience. Anyway, I've never received complaints by anyone, and we get evaluated by our whole PBL group and our PBL attending or resident, so you can already drop the '' you're a lame gunner. I hate your guts and hope you die in an horrible way'' stuff. It's old and childish.

These are my 2 cents. Sorry to hear you're hating this. What makes you stress about it ? Maybe some kind of advisor can help you at your school. G'luck !

Favorite gunner out 😳

 

[ear-ache]

Seems like our PBL is slightly different. You get graded on your PBL performance ? We only get either ''genius/great/good/needs to speak a bit more'' kind of comments. Is there a numerical grade in some PBL schools ?

Anyway, from my albeit limited PBL experience, people who never speak are either incredibly shy, still drunk from last night med party, or they just don't know the material well enough. (I can hear the flames coming right at me. *ducks* ). I'll admit that I end up speaking a lot during my PBL sessions, but here's the thing, it's all a matter of respect and common sense, which doesn't seem to be that common lately. Look, if we're all supposed to talk about the pathophysiology of a disease and there's like a 10 second silence, of course I'll start talking to break the ice and get this thing started. And then magically, everyone starts adding their piece of info and we're working as a group.

If a subject was discussed superficially, me and others will try to get in deeper into the material. Whenever someone speaks, you let them talk and when they're done, you can ask more questions or add some details. It's not about being a gunner, it's about doing your job as a med student. Of course some people will perform better than some others, but hey, that's life. There's still a way for everyone to be a winner in this PBL experience. Anyway, I've never received complaints by anyone, and we get evaluated by our whole PBL group and our PBL attending or resident, so you can already drop the '' you're a lame gunner. I hate your guts and hope you die in an horrible way'' stuff. It's old and childish.

These are my 2 cents. Sorry to hear you're hating this. What makes you stress about it ? Maybe some kind of advisor can help you at your school. G'luck !

Favorite gunner out 😳

Hmmmm... I don't recall ever saying something like "people who speak up in PBL are lame gunners, and I hate their guts kinda stuff".

All I'm saying is that PBL isn't for everyone and it can be painfulllllll. If you are introverted and stuck in a group with a bunch ignorant chest thumpers (Ex; "Yea... I can interpret this EKG because I was an EMT for a summer - there's no need to do an objective on it") it can be a long two years. I'm NOT saying that if you speak-up, contribute, and acknowledge holes in your knowledge base, that you are a gunner. Au contraire, those are the idea PBL partners.

My two big turn offs to PBL (if you haven’t already guessed) are;
1. People that over-reach their knowledge base. Hey, we're not supposed to know this stuff. It's OK to be ignorant on this topic, that's why we're going to Med school. Let's just look it up instead of reliving someone's childhood experience with a next-door neighbor's 2nd cousin with CF.
2. The workload not being equally distributed. Someone always seems to get stuck with the extra objectives/topics, and there always seem to be people who are content to turn in cr@p for objectives. Our tests questions were from topic X,Y, and Z, and if your group didn't cover them well enough, then you were likely to miss questions come test day. There were countless times I did loads of extra work because person 'X' turned in a pile of cr@p and I wanted to be well prepared come test day and boards.

PBL is great if everyone contributes, is respectful, is cognizant of their knowledge base, and researches their objectives/topics/'homework'. When it works - it works well. But when it doesn't, it makes you long for the lecture hall and independent learning.

To the OP: Regardless... the clinical years rock! Especially 4th year 😉 (I love my afternoon naps)
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=235615

 

[Blake]

My post wasn't targetting anyone in particular. My bad if it seemed that way. It's just that the term gunner gets thrown way too easily these days. Anyway, I see your point, but our PBL seems to be different. We don't have a concept of workload divided between students. We learn all the same things and then we discuss it as a group. From what you're saying, I get the impression that someone will study chapter 1 while another student studies chapter 2 and they all share their info in the next PBL session. Is that right ? Honestly, this doesn't sound like much fun, and it does look more stressful.

 

[tiredmom]

[ There were countless times I did loads of extra work because person 'X' turned in a pile of cr@p and I wanted to be well prepared come test day and boards.
PBL is great if everyone contributes, is respectful, is cognizant of their knowledge base, and researches their objectives/topics/'homework'. When it works - it works well. But when it doesn't, it makes you long for the lecture hall and independent learning.]

I agree... and those are the people you end up baby-sitting in your clinical years because they never step up (sorry, venting 🙂 ) and take their fair share. If you get to pick groups for clerkships - remember who they are - I certainly wish I had. We had mainly lecture/labs, with a few attempts at PBL throughout, I wish we would have had more.

 

[ear-ache]

My post wasn't targetting anyone in particular. My bad if it seemed that way. It's just that the term gunner gets thrown way too easily these days. Anyway, I see your point, but our PBL seems to be different. We don't have a concept of workload divided between students. We learn all the same things and then we discuss it as a group. From what you're saying, I get the impression that someone will study chapter 1 while another student studies chapter 2 and they all share their info in the next PBL session. Is that right ? Honestly, this doesn't sound like much fun, and it does look more stressful.

For example, we might have a case on DM for that week. So the group would then come up with "core objectives" on DM - topics we could be tested on. There would be an objective on epidemiology, pathogenesis, diagnosis/screening, treatment & pharmacology, pathology, etc, etc, etc. All those "objectives" are then divided up to the group and you research your objectives (we were encouraged to use peered reviewed sources and some primary literature, not board review books) and boil everything you learned into a 2 page handout. There is occasionally a tendency to skimp on objectives if someone felt they already had a good enough knowledge base to teach to group without doing the objective and hence save work (not a good idea in mho). You then study for your quarter exams using the objective handouts your group prepared. If a group member slacked on the the pathogenesis of DM1, you could be screwed come test day when they ask about the current thinking of the pathogenesis of DM1.



Very self directed learning… but we usually do well on boards…

 

[robotsonic]

I chose my medical school partly because I liked the focus on PBL that it had. Now that I'm a fourth year, I can say that PBL was an almost complete waste of time.

And it was not because of the "gunners" or whatever. It was because we spent many hours discussing and giving presentations on crap that doesn't matter. We would spend an entire week on one case, and since each person in the group had to present a couple of topics each week, that meant really having to stretch to come up with topics. During first and second year, I kind of felt like this was a bit ridiculous and a waste of time, but once I got to clinical years I realized that it was really ridiculous and a huge waste of time. I think my time would have been better spent just studying on my own.

I will grant that learning in small groups is often very useful. But instead of spending an entire week on one case and forcing yourself to think of bizarre things to discuss, why not go over a few cases each day? For example, the preceptor would hand out a sheet with three case scenarios on it, and over the course of an hour or two, the group of 10 students would discuss the differential diagnosis, work-up, and possible treatment options. This would be extremely useful, and would be much better preparation for the wards and for step 1.

 

[Blake]

So there are different versions of PBL. Never knew that, naively thought they were basically all the same. Having 2 pages handout all the time, relying totally on your classmate for some objectives and discussing esotheric cases really gives PBL a whole new look. Anyway, thanks for the info 👍

 

[ear-ache]

I chose my medical school partly because I liked the focus on PBL that it had. Now that I'm a fourth year, I can say that PBL was an almost complete waste of time.

And it was not because of the "gunners" or whatever. It was because we spent many hours discussing and giving presentations on crap that doesn't matter. We would spend an entire week on one case, and since each person in the group had to present a couple of topics each week, that meant really having to stretch to come up with topics. During first and second year, I kind of felt like this was a bit ridiculous and a waste of time, but once I got to clinical years I realized that it was really ridiculous and a huge waste of time. I think my time would have been better spent just studying on my own.

I will grant that learning in small groups is often very useful. But instead of spending an entire week on one case and forcing yourself to think of bizarre things to discuss, why not go over a few cases each day? For example, the preceptor would hand out a sheet with three case scenarios on it, and over the course of an hour or two, the group of 10 students would discuss the differential diagnosis, work-up, and possible treatment options. This would be extremely useful, and would be much better preparation for the wards and for step 1.

I agree.

To Blake: NP 🙂

 

[superdood68]

cases are a great way to enforce what is taught in lecture. i remember tutoring a student who had some trouble with the cases. now, when i look back on it, the cases were a great way to each. that's about all i liked about pbl. pbl in general was interesting in the beginning when i had no clue what was going on, but eventually the group activities got old.

 

[njbmd]

Hi there,
Problem-based learning has to be done properly to be effective. If the faculty facilitator is not competent, the whole process can break down. As a faculty facilitator, I made sure that every student had a role in the process. I also set limits and goals as to what I expected of the group. I has a couple of evening sessions at my house (complete with gormet food and beverages) on a couple of ethics cases so that my students could meld with each other a bit better. This toned down the gunners and ramped up the folks who didn't have much to say at first. (Yeah it was a bit touchy-feely at first). When the group dynamics are good, PBL is good.

My PBL groups have rocked on USMLE Step I and have done very well in residency. I guess it is because I emphasized clinical thinking and approach from the very first day. I guided at first but later on, the students picked up the ball and kept moving along.

Some schools do PBL better than others and some schools are having a dismal time getting their PBL courses off the ground. I was fortunate to be on a faculty that trained the facilitators pretty well and took great interest in the student's progress as most of us studied under a systems-based or classical curriculum.

Just a few throughts from a faculty perspective!
njbmd 🙂

 

[marooner]

i have a hard time looking for answers for the problems. you have to read lot of books just to anwer a single question. and those books ranges from anatomy, to internal medicine, and even medical journals!

 

[robotsonic]

i have a hard time looking for answers for the problems. you have to read lot of books just to anwer a single question. and those books ranges from anatomy, to internal medicine, and even medical journals!

I think that is one of the points. In fact, the only benefit I think I got from PBL was all that practice searching for journal articles.

To njbmd, you said your pbl groups did well on step 1 and residency... does this mean that you were with a group for their entire time in med school? During my first and second years, the facilitator (and the students in the group) changed about every month.

 

[njbmd]

I think that is one of the points. In fact, the only benefit I think I got from PBL was all that practice searching for journal articles.

To njbmd, you said your pbl groups did well on step 1 and residency... does this mean that you were with a group for their entire time in med school? During my first and second years, the facilitator (and the students in the group) changed about every month.

Hi there,
I had the same group for a year either first year or second year. We did not change groups around very much. When we first started PBL we found that it took too much time to get the group dynamics under control if we changed often. We first changed every six weeks then every semester. Neither worked well so we went with changing every year. Again, the facilitators were pretty redundant as we all had the same training course.
njbmd 🙂

 

[Kimmer]

My 1st year PBL was the worst part of the whole year. I think it was one of the worst classes I ever had. My school has a very half-ass PBL b/c we have a traditional curriculum with PBL as a tag on thing we do once a week. The group leader was psycho. He would yell at people for 45 minutes at a time if there were errors on their presentations. Frequently his idea of an error was accusing students of leaving out information they had discussed while he was spacing out. If you asked a question he would tell you how lazy you are and that you will be a terrible doctor. We have the same leader this year but we have all kind of learned how to diffuse him and so things go smoother.
I guess it is good practice working with difficult people, but I could get THAT kind of experience for free you know? Really I think if I didn't have to turn in attendance sheets for half of my classes I could have done the 1st 2 years of med school by correspondence course and saved a lot of rent $.
🙁