I hate this field

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psyched2graduate

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I think I've known for awhile but felt I'd invested too much time to quit toward the end of grad school. I'm currently in my second year of postdoc and have no motivation to pursue licensure. People have told me it gets better when you're not a trainee, but I don't think that's the issue. I guess I'm just interested in hearing about people who have left the field and what they decided to do. What were their experiences like? What non-traditional jobs are out there for people with clinical psych PhDs? I'm terrified to leave the only career I know but too miserable not to at least consider it. Does anyone else feel the same?
 
what do you hate about the field? it sounds like you have your PhD in hand and are close to becoming licensed -- Are there ways for you to use your degree to better match with your interests? -- i.e., moving from a mostly clinical gig to a more research-focused spot, vice-versa, teaching?
 
A close friend of mine left during his last year of grad school prior to when he was applying for internship. He cited leaving largely due to his "observations of the great discrepancies in the field between what psychologists say they do in the helping profession, and what they actually do day to day." He really was just done with dealing with, what he described as, large unchecked egos, as well as the business that he observed his older neuro-mentors take part in. It was pretty sad, largely due to the fact that he was one of the best neuro candidates for internship/postdoc I've ever known. He ended up taking an administrative job in the forensic system in his state and was hired on as a supervisor. He also started writing and now makes a good amount of money off of a website and app he started focused on film. Dude is way happier now.
 
What jobs? Literally boatloads depending on your skillset and credentials. We had a thread on this fairly recently and unfortunately it seemed like that individual had largely backed themselves into a corner by not having research skills/interest, not being willing to move, having limited clinical experience in higher-paying settings, etc. but I don't think that is the norm.

I think the real question is what has you feeling miserable and what do you want to do.

Jobs/Roles I have considered:
Staff scientist at a "Diet academia" research institute - RAND, RTI, etc.
Informatics Analyst in health insurance
Test Development/Analysis at a major testing company
Freelance stats/research consulting for small businesses
Marketing researcher
Healthcare administration
Conference/Event Planning
Medical Writing
Grant Writing
Academic "support" role (i.e. assistant dean's office for XYZ, though this feels a little like turning to the dark side based on my present views)
CDC, State Health Departments, etc.

This is off the top of my head in 30 seconds, so there are a lot more options than this. I'm reasonably confident if I made a firm decision to do so, I could move into any one of these fields over the course of maybe 1-2 years and land steady work (though not necessarily comparable to my current job in pay/benefits). We need more info on what you want. .
 
OP, sucks that you feel that way. Looks like some soul searching is on the way. I'd want to be sure the the dissatisfaction was with the field, and not with some jobs in the field. I've been in a soul-sucking job that left me pretty dissatisfied and that started to leach over into my general satisfaction in other areas. Since leaving that job, I have been much happier, and wealthier. Sometimes that change of scenery can make all of the difference.
 
I am in a TT position at a teaching university. I don't hate the field (or anything close). However, I feel I have an informed understanding of academia, both the business of teaching and research, and clinical health practice. I am not happy by the limitations but not demoralized by them either. This likely represents a personality trait rather than learning. I enjoy most of my job, though I had to change jobs for that to happen. I feel I am on track to receive tenure. I could see myself doing this till retirement or retiring after I am vetted in the state system (8 more years). One thing that this career path has provided me is time to reflect, introspect, and mature in a bit of a bubble. I delayed life for a while and I am less afraid of change.

The bigger point is that I was very excited to move on from postdoc to the next professional step. If you dread moving forward, I doubt your view will change. I still recommend getting licensure since that will provide you a lot of flexibility. When I was applying for faculty positions I saw a lot of other potential jobs (e.g., Amazon and the CIA). You could also go back to school for something that will be more interesting and incorporates your current training. You can start selling pseudo-scientific therapies or devices. The world is your oyster. I think you have lots of options, the real question is what is out there that would be better?
 
I'm not a fan of the field in general. My opinions:

1) It's easier to get licensed and never use it, than try to get it 10 years later.
2) Psychologists are not great at making a very brutal self assessment of skills and weaknesses. Everyone should. If you have a list of skills, then you can explore where there is need for these skills. Maybe you write well. Maybe your stats skills are awesome. Maybe you're willing to work more hours than anyone. If you don't know what you have to sell, and how that stacks up against the outside world, it will be hard to sell yourself.
3) It's important to know what you want, so you can pursue it.
4) It's important to know your own risk tolerance.
5) It's important to learn about other fields. For example, marketing is highly data driven and not too creative. If you walk in with your psych theories, you'll get laughed out of the room.
6) It's important to network.

As for alternative fields that I know psychologists are in and am willing to share:

1) Famously, the Netflix algorithm guy.
2) UI design
3) Marketing
4) Travel retreat owner
5) Research assistant/grant writer/
6) Pharma trials
7) Priest
8) Author(s)
9) Electrophysiology monitor (does not pay great)
 
WisNeuro said:
Ah, so a slightly fancier eeg tech, who still needs less than an undergraduate education 🙂 Was this person unlicensable for some reason?
Click to expand...

Not at all. Top notch education. More of a developed software in a lab at at time when industry had a need.
 
WisNeuro said:
Fair enough, as long as it's not the Amen clinic software, more power to them.
Click to expand...
Oh my goodness, I had a client that almost underwent 'treatment' at the Amen clinic. That was a difficult conversation to balance 😵 (respecting client autonomy vs. wanting to save them from bad science and an empty wallet).
 
OP, I believe that you know yourself best and why you feel the way you do. But for the sake of playing devil's advocate, are there any other significant life stressors going on right now for you that may be bleeding into how you feel about your work or perhaps amplifying feelings of dissatisfaction? I say this with good intent 🙂, one of my close friends in grad school also left the field but I wonder if it may have been somewhat impacted by other stressors.
 
This may or may not apply to you, but for others who might be reading - if you have any interest or skills in advanced stats/programming, pursue it. I’ve had so many job opportunities thrown my way.
 
mlwg1 said:
This may or may not apply to you, but for others who might be reading - if you have any interest or skills in advanced stats/programming, pursue it. I’ve had so many job opportunities thrown my way.
Click to expand...

Most definitely. My best friend has a non-clinical PhD in psych with a heavy state component. Now he works for a major pharma co making more than 120k+ in base salary, with quarterly bonuses. Definitely lucrative opportunities if you are stats savvy.
 
This is one of the reasons it bugs me that so many people seem to have this weird belief that "I don't want to be a professor so I don't need research skills."

The opportunities for folks with research skills are abundant. Many pay very well. Don't take it for granted.
 
Ollie123 said:
This is one of the reasons it bugs me that so many people seem to have this weird belief that "I don't want to be a professor so I don't need research skills."
Click to expand...

Regarding this, I am less concerned about their ability to get research related jobs, as I am about clinicians who have no idea to evaluate research and start practicing woo medicine because they are ignorant of basic stats, research methodology, or understanding of placebo and related effects.
 
psyched2graduate said:
I think I've known for awhile but felt I'd invested too much time to quit toward the end of grad school. I'm currently in my second year of postdoc and have no motivation to pursue licensure. People have told me it gets better when you're not a trainee, but I don't think that's the issue. I guess I'm just interested in hearing about people who have left the field and what they decided to do. What were their experiences like? What non-traditional jobs are out there for people with clinical psych PhDs? I'm terrified to leave the only career I know but too miserable not to at least consider it. Does anyone else feel the same?
Click to expand...

I PMed you because I did experience a significant decline in general interest/intellectual curiosity about the field, and what I was doing within it (mostly clinical work in the VA system) at about the 3-4 year post licence mark.

I switched jobs (and arguably careers), but am still able to use my skills whilst building/expanding as a professional. My current job is the least adverse in terms of setting, schedule, and demands that I can think of for a licensed psychologist. I probably should have become a meteorologist, but I am over 35 and have a family and 2 kids in Catholic School. No more school for me.

Looking back, I do not think my experience had much to do with the actual setting that I was working (the VA is one of the best protected and remunerated clinical positions in the field), but was simply a fundamental mismatch that I failed to acknowledge years earlier, despite multiple warning signs...as you allude to in your post.
 
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BuckeyeLove said:
A close friend of mine left during his last year of grad school prior to when he was applying for internship. He cited leaving largely due to his "observations of the great discrepancies in the field between what psychologists say they do in the helping profession, and what they actually do day to day." He really was just done with dealing with, what he described as, large unchecked egos, as well as the business that he observed his older neuro-mentors take part in. It was pretty sad, largely due to the fact that he was one of the best neuro candidates for internship/postdoc I've ever known. He ended up taking an administrative job in the forensic system in his state and was hired on as a supervisor. He also started writing and now makes a good amount of money off of a website and app he started focused on film. Dude is way happier now.
Click to expand...

I'm curious by what you mean by "he business that he observed his older neuro-mentors take part in". Currently on internship and feeling burnt out myself...
 
Ollie123 said:
This is one of the reasons it bugs me that so many people seem to have this weird belief that "I don't want to be a professor so I don't need research skills."

The opportunities for folks with research skills are abundant. Many pay very well. Don't take it for granted.
Click to expand...
Many of them pay far better than being a professor, that's for sure.
 
WisNeuro said:
I'd say most jobs in the field pay far better than being a professor, especially in the early years.
Click to expand...

Eh - depends where. Certainly true if we are talking small colleges. Not so much at AMCs or universities. I know few folks making < 90k fresh out of post-doc. Many earning significantly more. This is on the AMC side - university side is less in dollars, but if you account for the fact it is a 9 month appt it works out about the same. Payscale seems roughly equal to VAs and actually quite a bit higher than many/most clinical jobs I see advertised - especially once you factor in benefits (which typically adds at least 20-30k). Not to say that it isn't possible to earn (significantly) more in other gigs, just that I think folks overestimate the availability of 100k+benefits jobs for folks fresh out of post-doc. They are out there for sure, but I'd bet for every one of those there are at least three Counseling Center/CMHC/State or Private Hospital gigs paying more in the 70k range.

That said, I'm quite certain nearly I'd get at least a 10k bump in some of the industries I listed above and potentially more like 30-40k in some others.
 
Ollie123 said:
Eh - depends where. Certainly true if we are talking small colleges. Not so much at AMCs or universities. I know few folks making < 90k fresh out of post-doc. Many earning significantly more. This is on the AMC side - university side is less in dollars, but if you account for the fact it is a 9 month appt it works out about the same. Payscale seems roughly equal to VAs and actually quite a bit higher than many/most clinical jobs I see advertised - especially once you factor in benefits (which typically adds at least 20-30k). Not to say that it isn't possible to earn (significantly) more in other gigs, just that I think folks overestimate the availability of 100k+benefits jobs for folks fresh out of post-doc. They are out there for sure, but I'd bet for every one of those there are at least three Counseling Center/CMHC/State or Private Hospital gigs paying more in the 70k range.

That said, I'm quite certain nearly I'd get at least a 10k bump in some of the industries I listed above and potentially more like 30-40k in some others.
Click to expand...

True, I imagine it's quite dependent on location and how much you're pulling in with grant money. I've looked in my area, and I'd be looking at a 25-40% pay cut for most of the academic jobs I see being posted. One of the diploma mills in town is constantly hiring for a neuro-based clinical faculty. I'm always tempted to apply to see how laughable the salary is as they do not post ranges with it.
 
Ollie123 said:
Eh - depends where. Certainly true if we are talking small colleges. Not so much at AMCs or universities. I know few folks making < 90k fresh out of post-doc. Many earning significantly more. This is on the AMC side - university side is less in dollars, but if you account for the fact it is a 9 month appt it works out about the same. Payscale seems roughly equal to VAs and actually quite a bit higher than many/most clinical jobs I see advertised - especially once you factor in benefits (which typically adds at least 20-30k). Not to say that it isn't possible to earn (significantly) more in other gigs, just that I think folks overestimate the availability of 100k+benefits jobs for folks fresh out of post-doc. They are out there for sure, but I'd bet for every one of those there are at least three Counseling Center/CMHC/State or Private Hospital gigs paying more in the 70k range.

That said, I'm quite certain nearly I'd get at least a 10k bump in some of the industries I listed above and potentially more like 30-40k in some others.
Click to expand...
Agreed.

9month adjustment plus the fringe schedule benefits make it a pretty solid earning/life balance for research intensive universities. There is a lot of value to having a month off at Christmas and several in the summer
 
Been out of town for a few weeks, interesting thread. I would say that hate is a strong word, but I definitely love the science of psychology more than reality of the clinical job market. Had I to do it over again, I would have spent more time focusing on applied research, statistics, or program development. Healthcare is a cluster**** and there is more money to be had elsewhere with less hoops to jump through.
 
WisNeuro said:
True, I imagine it's quite dependent on location and how much you're pulling in with grant money. I've looked in my area, and I'd be looking at a 25-40% pay cut for most of the academic jobs I see being posted. One of the diploma mills in town is constantly hiring for a neuro-based clinical faculty. I'm always tempted to apply to see how laughable the salary is as they do not post ranges with it.
Click to expand...

I actually think 90k is largely the AMC standard anywhere - I did an informal poll of friends when negotiating and that was around the norm even among rust belt/midwest/south/etc. Seemed true whether we were discussing clinical or research jobs - I actually take a bit of a hit here being a researcher, though it is incredibly worth it.

You would almost certainly take a pay cut moving to academia, but if memory serves you are a boarded (or applying for boarding) neuropsychologist with a pretty strong background. Without any offense intended, I suspect you are somewhat out of touch with what "most jobs" in the field are paying and wouldn't even think to look let alone consider them. See what a nearby small hospital is paying regular staff psychologists or your local college is paying folks in the counseling center. It ain't pretty. Academics certainly isn't going to get you rich, but at least research-heavy academics or AMC clinicians you are likely doing equal or better than "most."
 
Ollie123 said:
You would almost certainly take a pay cut moving to academia, but if memory serves you are a boarded (or applying for boarding) neuropsychologist with a pretty strong background. Without any offense intended, I suspect you are somewhat out of touch with what "most jobs" in the field are paying and wouldn't even think to look let alone consider them. See what a nearby small hospital is paying regular staff psychologists or your local college is paying folks in the counseling center. It ain't pretty. Academics certainly isn't going to get you rich, but at least research-heavy academics or AMC clinicians you are likely doing equal or better than "most."
Click to expand...

I'll agree with you somewhat about the "most jobs" part, but only because we have a saturated field, and most jobs are filled with mediocre-ish people. There are plenty of jobs I wouldn't touch because I know what their ceiling on pay is, and it's something that I would not even bother considering at this point in my career. But, I think if you take the diploma mill and mediocre people out, you can see people doing well into the 90's and six figures pretty easily. I believe the ceiling is much higher in clinical work, and there are more opportunities for the higher end of the ay scale. Also, even with things being equal, small pay differences (10kish) shouldn't come into the equation when thinking about academic vs clinical. If someone is not a fan of research and teaching, you can give them an extra 10-20 thousand and that's probably not enough to offset the job dissatisfaction. Same thing for the inverse.
 
Sanman said:
Been out of town for a few weeks, interesting thread. I would say that hate is a strong word, but I definitely love the science of psychology more than reality of the clinical job market. Had I to do it over again, I would have spent more time focusing on applied research, statistics, or program development. Healthcare is a cluster**** and there is more money to be had elsewhere with less hoops to jump through.
Click to expand...

As I have gone through graduate school, this has been my experience. I have worked hard on applied research, statistics, program development/evaluation, and programming. In addition to being interested in these areas over and above clinical work, they seem to be more generally applicable. I am just wondering how to try and translate this experience as I search out post-doc positions that are more focused on research, especially since the program I came from was not especially research-heavy.
 
iliketohelppeople said:
As I have gone through graduate school, this has been my experience. I have worked hard on applied research, statistics, program development/evaluation, and programming. In addition to being interested in these areas over and above clinical work, they seem to be more generally applicable. I am just wondering how to try and translate this experience as I search out post-doc positions that are more focused on research, especially since the program I came from was not especially research-heavy.
Click to expand...

Those skills are great to have, especially if you are looking outside of academic institutions for future employment. However, to be competitive for research-focused postdocs in psychology you need to have strong evidence of productivity. In other words, how well have you put those skills to use to produce publications, grants, etc.?
 
MamaPhD said:
Those skills are great to have, especially if you are looking outside of academic institutions for future employment. However, to be competitive for research-focused postdocs in psychology you need to have strong evidence of productivity. In other words, how well have you put those skills to use to produce publications, grants, etc.?
Click to expand...

Thanks for your feedback, MamaPhD. My sub-field can sometimes be quite slow due with regards to publications due to logistics. In terms of pubs, I have one published (distantly related), one to be reviewed, one in preparation, and possibly can get another one in preparation this spring. I have several posters/presentations, as well. Definitely more productive than others from program, but likely not compared to others from especially research-heavy programs. Trying to get more experience on internship, but these experiences are limited (and definitely won't have data until later in the training year) in a topic closely related to my sub-field. I fully recognize these limitations on my application to post-docs that deal with research, for sure.

Also looking into post-docs that are not housed within psychology departments, which I think could have me be competitive in a different way (bringing more clinical experience, which was the focus of my program). I guess, at the very least, I see these skills as extremely helpful, for even if I do not transition to a research post-doc, to move into other areas (data analysis, consulting) in the future.
 
I highly recommend The Professor Is In (book and also a website) for advice on post-ac or alt-ac job search and dealing with academia-related burnout. This book is an excellent resource, including tips on how to translate academia-specific skills into skills that would impress non-ac employers. Good luck!
 
iliketohelppeople said:
Also looking into post-docs that are not housed within psychology departments, which I think could have me be competitive in a different way (bringing more clinical experience, which was the focus of my program).
Click to expand...

Do you mean at places like medical schools, VA facilities, etc.? Generally speaking, those research postdocs will be similarly focused on evidence of productivity. One postdoc I'm aware of even has candidates prepare a job talk, which IMO is over the top.

Or do you mean postdocs that are not specific to psychology?
 
MamaPhD said:
Do you mean at places like medical schools, VA facilities, etc.? Generally speaking, those research postdocs will be similarly focused on evidence of productivity. One postdoc I'm aware of even has candidates prepare a job talk, which IMO is over the top.

Or do you mean postdocs that are not specific to psychology?
Click to expand...

I am applying to a couple of VAs that have some related research to what I have been doing, but I am more focused on postdocs not specific to psychology (e.g., public health, some in social work departments). With the latter, the challenge is finding clinical work that would meet the criteria for post-doc experience to satisfy licensure requirements in the states I could move to in the future.
 
iliketohelppeople said:
I am applying to a couple of VAs that have some related research to what I have been doing, but I am more focused on postdocs not specific to psychology (e.g., public health, some in social work departments). With the latter, the challenge is finding clinical work that would meet the criteria for post-doc experience to satisfy licensure requirements in the states I could move to in the future.
Click to expand...

Some states have done away with the requirement for a postdoc year, so there's that. Of the states that do require a postdoctoral year, what counts as acceptable experience varies, but one commonality is the need for supervision by a psychologist during the training year. So there are tradeoffs to doing a research postdoc outside of psychology. But if you are really committed to a research, applied, or other nonclinical position, it might be worth it.
 
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