All Branch Topic (ABT) I hate weigh ins

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Perrotfish said:
Its that time again. A month of dieting, culminating in 36 hours of fasting and dehydration. How the f- do people do this into their 50s?

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I'm going to get good at making a prosthetic neck enhancement and go for tape
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Cooperd0g said:
You could actually stay in decent physical condition year round. Lots of people do it. Just saying.
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I never run less than an outstanding on the PRT. The problem.with the weigh in is that its a nightmare for people who lift. The Marine Corps gets this, that's why they don't weigh anyone with an outstanding. The Navy has somewhat less common sense.
 
Perrotfish said:
I never run less than an outstanding on the PRT. The problem.with the weigh in is that its a nightmare for people who lift. The Marine Corps gets this, that's why they don't weigh anyone with an outstanding. The Navy has somewhat less common sense.
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Do y’all have the tape measurements like the army?
 
sb247 said:
Do y’all have the tape measurements like the army?
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I'm Navy and yes, we do. I'm not entrusting my next 6 months of sanity to the E3 doing the measurement, though. Even with the self tensioning tape my practice measurements have varied by 4 inches depending on the day and the operator.

Also my waist has dropped by 3 inches as I've dropped water weight. You'd think that would be a hint that this isn't an accurate test.
 
When I was active, the guys running the height/weight stations would measure me anywhere from 5'10" to 6'2" (I have been 6'1" since I was fifteen). It's infuriating, as I was ~190lbs but never knew if I'd be measured incorrectly and be judged overweight.

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psychbender said:
When I was active, the guys running the height/weight stations would measure me anywhere from 5'10" to 6'2" (I have been 6'1" since I was fifteen). It's infuriating, as I was ~190lbs but never knew if I'd be measured incorrectly and be judged overweight.

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I get that too. I'm actually under the weight for 5'11, but I have learned I need to be prepared for them to shave off an inch and overwigh by 3 pounds, so I need to be 3 pounds under the 5'10 weight.
 
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There are billboards for plastic surgeons all over my small military town. I wonder how many people in my command have made their bodies more tape friendly?
 
psychbender said:
Are the spas around you advertising "PRT wraps" that consist mainly of Preparation H and saran wrap? One of my Navy co-residents told us stories about the senior enlisted doing that around Norfolk.

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We keep getting warning Emails that those wraps aren't legal. I'm guessing that means a bunch of people are doing it.
 
During residency, height/weight and the events were the same day. Change posts, and they're on separate days, because too many people were using diuretics and laxatives to cut weight, then falling out during the run. Rather than actually address the problem, they just said, "you shouldn't do that," then enabled bad behavior.

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psychbender said:
During residency, height/weight and the events were the same day. Change posts, and they're on separate days, because too many people were using diuretics and laxatives to cut weight, then falling out during the run. Rather than actually address the problem, they just said, "you shouldn't do that," then enabled bad behavior.

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That's tough. You don't need to be getting into diuretics to have the weigh in affect your PRT. I don't think even half of my command could pass the weigh in if they had to eat a full dinner the night before, and if you're not doing that you're hurting your score .

Maybe they could just measure fat using something that's not affected by crash diets? Like a bod pod? If its important enough to end thousands of careers a year over maybe the cheapest option is not the best option.
 
Ah yes the fun of tape tests. The ideal soldier in the Army either has Klinefelter's Syndrome or a goiter.......
 
To all potential future military people reading this thread: the level of whining here is quite ridiculous.

With 24 years in the Navy I can count on one hand the number of people who had difficulty passing the weigh in, but no difficulty passing the actual PRT. One was a legit hobby body builder and two were freaks of nature that looked like fat bodies, but kicked my ass in any PT. The overwhelming majority of people who struggle with the weigh in are true fat bodies who also struggle with the PRT because they are way out of physical condition.

And if half of your command can’t pass a random weigh in or PRT then ... well, I don’t actually believe that, but if it were true, then that is a serious command leadership issue worthy of acting on.
 
Cooperd0g said:
To all potential future military people reading this thread: the level of whining here is quite ridiculous.

With 24 years in the Navy I can count on one hand the number of people who had difficulty passing the weigh in, but no difficulty passing the actual PRT. One was a legit hobby body builder and two were freaks of nature that looked like fat bodies, but kicked my ass in any PT. The overwhelming majority of people who struggle with the weigh in are true fat bodies who also struggle with the PRT because they are way out of physical condition.

And if half of your command can’t pass a random weigh in or PRT then ... well, I don’t actually believe that, but if it were true, then that is a serious command leadership issue worthy of acting on.
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Depends what you mean by ''trouble' passing the weigh in. Trouble like failing? You're right that the people who lack the discipline to make weight are usually the same ones who have trouble passing the PRT. I've never been withing 5 pounds of failing on weigh in day and neither has anyone I know who could score an excellent or above. Trouble meaning 'you need to put yourself through an absolutely miserable weight cutting routine to pass?'. That's a problem for everyone who lifts seriously, which is a lot.of the command. Which is infuriating: it's a test that harasses people who are doing the thing that they are supposed to be doing, and that's pretty easy to pass for people who just do cardio once per week.

This is one of those things people don't talk about much. High weight is stigmatized in the military even ifiyou pass the tests, and the more extreme weight cutting techniques (Miralax, diuretics, wraps, surgery) are theoretically illegal and would void your weigh in. Much like depression or financial problems this is a subject that no one starts conversations about, but you' be shocked how many.people come forward to talk about it if you start th conversation. I don't even have to resort to the truely illegal stuff but the weekend before the weigh in still sucks.

And again, if you're right and its just a handful, then there's no reason not to follow the Marine Corp's example and waive the weigh in for anyone with a high enough PRT score.
 
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A timed run is pretty objective and can't really be gamed, but let's be honest about the quality of sit ups and push ups that are being done and counted.

How many of these out-of-weight-standards people would really be getting "outstanding" level scores if their push up count wasn't being inflated 50% by scorers who count chin dips and elbow bends as "push ups"?

If you're going to waive the weight standards for people who score high enough, let's see the elbows break 90 degrees and the shoulders touch the ground for each sit up.

Marines get jump starts at pull ups and do ab flexing routines that would make gymnasts proud to inflate those scores.

21 years I've been in and never once have I ever seen a person stopped and scoring halted for bad (cheating) form.


The main problem is that it's a pseudo-objective test to measure something that's really pretty subjective: They don't want fat people spilling out of uniforms and looking bad, and they want people fit enough to do the job they were hired for.

Do what you got to do, game the system, move on.
 
@Perrotfish your hospital must be a statistical anomaly to be filled with such high percentages of muscle bound docs and corpsmen.

@Para_Doc_S. max weight for the Navy at 72 inches is 201lbs, not 184. Source: Navy Personnel Command

Yes, the system is broken. But it isn't THE SKY IS FALLING broken as bad as this thread is trying to make it out to be.
 
Cooperd0g said:
@Perrotfish your hospital must be a statistical anomaly to be filled with such high percentages of muscle bound docs and corpsmen.
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Is it that wierd? Most corpsman are young men who want to look like they're in the military. The HNs mostly lift. So do a lot of the male docs. It's just part of the culture. You don't need to carry around all that much fat to break 191 at 5'10" if you've been lifting regularly for more than a couple of years.
 
Perrotfish said:
Is it that wierd? Most corpsman are young men who want to look like they're in the military. The HNs mostly lift. So do a lot of the male docs. It's just part of the culture. You don't need to carry around all that much fat to break 191 at 5'10" if you've been lifting regularly for more than a couple of years.
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I don't buy this. I am 5'10" and have lifted since high school. I am a little chubbier than I would like to be and weigh in at 175. If I was 191 I would be grossly overweight.
 
Perrotfish said:
Is it that wierd? Most corpsman are young men who want to look like they're in the military. The HNs mostly lift. So do a lot of the male docs. It's just part of the culture. You don't need to carry around all that much fat to break 191 at 5'10" if you've been lifting regularly for more than a couple of years.
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Yes, if your description is accurate, it is incredibly weird. I didn't think I was beating around the bush. 24 years in the Navy, most in the Line, and as I said, I only saw 3-5 people that were actually in good physical condition and were concerned/had to make an effort to pass BCA, or got taped regularly. A lot of people lift regularly and don't come anywhere near height/weight limits. People in good physical condition almost never have trouble meeting BCA. It is a VERY rare situation.

If you happen to be one of those people, then I'm sorry, I'm sure it is annoying. At 5'10" and 191 you are either pro football player ripped (Julian Edelman is 5'10" and 195) or you are fat. I am 5'9" and 165 with a max weight of 186 per BCA. I would be a monster at 186 ... or fat as phuck. So don't try and pass it off like it is a common issue or that half of your corpsmen have the same issue. I'm not buying it. And no one reading this thread should buy it either.
 
Like others said, the killer is the ambiguity. I am between two height measurements. If I come in at the higher one. I am chilling and basically just can't eat a heavy breakfast. If they pick the lower one...it's rough. Literally on PRIMS i am two different heights depending on the month/year. The taping is variable. Excellent or outstanding on PRT events. My understanding from the policy is that anything over the strict height difference is rounded up to the next whole inch but that hasn't been the practice over multiple different people.
 
The military should just authorize the Dadbod and be done with it. I offer myself as the poster child: 5'11" and typically weigh between 200-210, approaching middle age. No problems with pushups or situps but I have to work at the run. I never make weight but I make tape with plenty to spare. I lift weights and run but also eat pizza and donuts and wash it down with a six-pack. My time in the gym has not resulted in a gain of 40lbs of lean mass, I assure you. I used to think that the weight charts were outdated, but I did some rough mathematics on myself and came to the conclusion that I am just fat.

It's like I tell my guys: to stay in the service, you have to a) pass an APFT and ht/wt/tape; b) be deployable; c) do your job well, or at least not exceedingly poorly. Miss any one of those and you're on your way out. Unless of course you're a physician, in which case you will be moved to a non-deployable unit or kept out of residency/fellowship.
 
Mace1370 said:
I don't buy this. I am 5'10" and have lifted since high school. I am a little chubbier than I would like to be and weigh in at 175. If I was 191 I would be grossly overweight.
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I don't know your build but it's really not that hard for most guys to hit the 190s. Don't get me wrong, you don't have visible abs at that weight unless you're built like a linebacker, but you can look a lot thinner than a lot of other people in the Navy and still fail to make weight if you lift
 
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They also need to get one height, and stick with it. Like I said, I've been measured anywhere from 5'10" to 6'2", when I've been 6'1" for over a decade. That's a difference of 25lbs. I was 187-192 for the majority of my active duty time (total dad bod, not ripped, but not disgusting, and easily passed the events), and that would be overweight if they dropped three inches off my actual height, as happened before.

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pgg said:
21 years I've been in and never once have I ever seen a person stopped and scoring halted for bad (cheating) form.
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I have. Several times per prt. We’ve had chiefs get booted for prt failures on the pushups and curl ups. But it is highly variable command to command, and there is definitely a lot of inflation going on.
 
Perrotfish said:
I mean, they kinda did. They won't fire you for weight anymore, they just keep you in FEP purgatory forever.
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They DOPMA'd out a really excellent double boarded anesthesiologist intensivist here a couple years ago. He hadn't promoted past O4 a couple or three times due to PFA failures, and they gave him the boot at around 15 (?) years. ADSO was up. He wanted to stay and they said no.

This may be the exception that proves the rule, perhaps.
 
pgg said:
They DOPMA'd out a really excellent double boarded anesthesiologist intensivist here a couple years ago. He hadn't promoted past O4 a couple or three times due to PFA failures, and they gave him the boot at around 15 (?) years. ADSO was up. He wanted to stay and they said no.

This may be the exception that proves the rule, perhaps.
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I was referring to the new rule that they won't boot you for two PRT failures anymore. It just came out this year. It t also wouldn't have helped that anesthesiologist, because it still let's them boot you at the end of an ADSO, you just have until your ETS to find a way to pass the thing.

That is a ridiculous story, BTW. I'm not against physical fitness standards but they really do need to find some way to balance the need for fitness against their need to have people who can actually do things.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
I have. Several times per prt. We’ve had chiefs get booted for prt failures on the pushups and curl ups. But it is highly variable command to command, and there is definitely a lot of inflation going on.
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It seemed likelthey were watxhing form much more closely at my residency hospital than at my current small hospital. Maybe it's just harder to fail people when you know that you will need to keep running into them in the halls?
 
Perrotfish said:
It seemed likelthey were watxhing form much more closely at my residency hospital than at my current small hospital. Maybe it's just harder to fail people when you know that you will need to keep running into them in the halls?
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Possibly. I was on a boat 500-ft long and 50-ft wide. Our cfl did not give a **** about failing someone and having to see them in the p-way.
 
I agree it's totally subjective with the tape test. I saw that at MEPS on my visits. I'm not a small build. I am 5'11 and weigh in at around 215. I'm not skinny, but I am not fat. I lift constantly. I'm not doing 50 lb neck curls on the regular because I enjoy it that's for sure, but when you are stocky in build and have a long neck the tape test is not your friend. I've been measured anywhere from 21% to 28% body fat depending on who is doing the taping. Can I pass a tape test? Yep it just means maybe not eating for a day before and a couple weeks of low carbing. Can I smoke the physical fitness test? Oh yes and I'm not a runner. I think the Army gets a lot of folks because of the 2 mile run. I can smoke the Navy and Air Force 1.5 mile run times without hardly breaking a sweat. I'm sure it's a mental thing but that last .5 miles for the Army PFT is hard on a non-runner.

I'm hoping to see a change in the PFT (like they've been talking about for years) where they look more at actual applications for fitness vs. how many push ups, sit ups, and how fast I can run. I know marathon runners and sprinters who can smoke the PFT, but you put the gear on them and they can't keep up with the fatties. I would love to see things like how much can you did lift of farmer's carry or can you pick a person up and carry them this far. Can you lift yourself over a wall with full battle rattle. Those to me are much more applicable to real life situations.

Just my 2 cents. I ain't complaining. I'll make the tape and do what I need to do to be in the military, but I won't lie when I say it's definitely too subjective of a way to measure physical fitness and body fat.
 
TheEarDoc said:
I'm hoping to see a change in the PFT (like they've been talking about for years) where they look more at actual applications for fitness vs. how many push ups, sit ups, and how fast I can run. I know marathon runners and sprinters who can smoke the PFT, but you put the gear on them and they can't keep up with the fatties. I would love to see things like how much can you did lift of farmer's carry or can you pick a person up and carry them this far. Can you lift yourself over a wall with full battle rattle. Those to me are much more applicable to real life situations.
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I’ve been saying for years (and I’m sure I’m not the first) that the fleet Navy needs to go to a modified firefighter/police PRT. How many push-ups you can do or how fast you can run a mile and a half in no way indicates if you’re going to be able to drag hose and gear up ladderwells in FFGs and SCBAs or in a vest and gun belt.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
I’ve been saying for years (and I’m sure I’m not the first) that the fleet Navy needs to go to a modified firefighter/police PRT. How many push-ups you can do or how fast you can run a mile and a half in no way indicates if you’re going to be able to drag hose and gear up ladderwells in FFGs and SCBAs or in a vest and gun belt.
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The downside of that is the injury and failure rate will be dramatically higher for a couple of rounds.
 
Cooperd0g said:
The downside of that is the injury and failure rate will be dramatically higher for a couple of rounds.
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Not if they make command PT mandatory leading up to the cycle and ease people into it over the 10 weeks prior to the PRT. I mean, people might still get injured, but there are definitely ways to mitigate that.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
Not if they make command PT mandatory leading up to the cycle and ease people into it over the 10 weeks prior to the PRT. I mean, people might still get injured, but there are definitely ways to mitigate that.
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IIdon't think so. I think there are a lot of ages/body types that just couldn't adapt to that, no matter how much they PT.

I think fitness standards really need to be job specific. A corpsman who can't do a carryout is a huge issue, but do we care if the submarine guys have upper body strength issues? Do we care if the Pediatric Surgeon can't run ?
 
Perrotfish said:
IIdon't think so. I think there are a lot of ages/body types that just couldn't adapt to that, no matter how much they PT.

I think fitness standards really need to be job specific. A corpsman who can't do a carryout is a huge issue, but do we care if the submarine guys have upper body strength issues? Do we care if the Pediatric Surgeon can't run ?
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Have you ever been in a mass conflag (or even a regular fire) or a medical emergency on a ship or a sub? Yes, you definitely care if the submariner has upper body strength issues. I get that there are body types and ages that can't do certain things, but that's why we have different standards for different ages. Honestly, if you can't drag me out of a space that's on fire, I don't really want you on my ship (with some exceptions, e.g., the senior guys and gals who won't be leaving the locker or the mess decks anyway). I've been in those situations, and people who can't do the job are dangerous.

I do agree with job specific/command specific PRTs though. That's why I said specifically the fleet Navy (i.e., ships and subs). A CTI in the basement at DLI doesn't need to be able to drag hose down three ladder wells fully dressed out. Anyone who is on a ship needs to be able to effectively respond to fires, flooding, medical emergencies, security alerts, etc. You are waaaaay more likely to be injured or killed in a DC casualty than in a combat situation at sea.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
Have you ever been in a mass conflag (or even a regular fire) or a medical emergency on a ship or a sub? Yes, you definitely care if the submariner has upper body strength issues. I get that there are body types and ages that can't do certain things, but that's why we have different standards for different ages. Honestly, if you can't drag me out of a space that's on fire, I don't really want you on my ship (with some exceptions, e.g., the senior guys and gals who won't be leaving the locker or the mess decks anyway). I've been in those situations, and people who can't do the job are dangerous.

I do agree with job specific/command specific PRTs though. That's why I said specifically the fleet Navy (i.e., ships and subs). A CTI in the basement at DLI doesn't need to be able to drag hose down three ladder wells fully dressed out. Anyone who is on a ship needs to be able to effectively respond to fires, flooding, medical emergencies, security alerts, etc. You are waaaaay more likely to be injured or killed in a DC casualty than in a combat situation at sea.
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Yep if the Navy didn't feel fire safety on a ship was an important matter than they would stop forcing all enlistees at Great Lakes to undergo firefighting training on their awesome simulator.

I know I had read the Army was talking about kicking in certain PFT's based on MOS. I think it's a great idea. I am all for having to have a basic level of physical fitness (ie. can you run at least a mile if you had to or ruck march for 5 miles if you had to evac with full battle rattle), but I think the one size fits all idea is not really that helpful, but then again I am just a civi and not a military person at this point, so my opinion means nill and I understand that.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
Not if they make command PT mandatory leading up to the cycle and ease people into it over the 10 weeks prior to the PRT. I mean, people might still get injured, but there are definitely ways to mitigate that.
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Yeah, that's a great idea. Is everyone going to come in at 4 AM, or stay until 7 PM, or are we going to cut a couple hours of clinic and OR time every day so a bunch of docs and nurses can go out and do pretend calisthenics in a parking lot?
 
pgg said:
Yeah, that's a great idea. Is everyone going to come in at 4 AM, or stay until 7 PM, or are we going to cut a couple hours of clinic and OR time every day so a bunch of docs and nurses can go out and do pretend calisthenics in a parking lot?
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Maybe you should read what I actually wrote. I said the fleet Navy. Ships and submarines. I didn’t say anything about clinics or any shore commands at all, except to say that a PRT like that doesn’t apply to them.

And our commands did command PT at lunch. Worked fine on a ship. Which is what I was talking about. Again.
 
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