I need a pain fellowship

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

Dryacku

Member
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2006
Messages
186
Reaction score
1
Hey I will be applying for a pain fellowship this upcoming year for start in 2011.

I scored a 32 on my ITE during my CA-1 year and have a few pending publications. I am looking for a fellowship in the northeast, thats heavy in procedures. I want to have as much experience doing different procedures. I do not care if I have to do 2 years to gain the full experience.

My question is are there any hidden small programs out there that are strong but overlooked? Also any non accredited programs that are strong? and what does it mean to do a non accredited program for the future (is there anyone out there that has done this and doing well)?

This whole applying to every program separately is a real pain, is there any faster way to do this?

Thanks

Members don't see this ad.
 
i think you should go into Family Practice......Obama and the Dems are forcing it. I probably wouldnt go into medicine period. But it's too late for me.
 
Hey I will be applying for a pain fellowship this upcoming year for start in 2011.

I scored a 32 on my ITE during my CA-1 year and have a few pending publications. I am looking for a fellowship in the northeast, thats heavy in procedures. I want to have as much experience doing different procedures. I do not care if I have to do 2 years to gain the full experience.

My question is are there any hidden small programs out there that are strong but overlooked? Also any non accredited programs that are strong? and what does it mean to do a non accredited program for the future (is there anyone out there that has done this and doing well)?

This whole applying to every program separately is a real pain, is there any faster way to do this?

Thanks

If you want to do Pain Medicine, go all the way. Dont try to do an unaccredited fellowship.

Patients dont want to go to someone like this. Referring physicians wont want to refer to you. You wil have difficulties to getting priveleged to hospitals for procedures.

Dont sell yourself or the patient short. Go through the real route or just dont do it.

Of course you will hear 'anecdotal' stories, but ESPECIALLY now, I think they will be the exception more thn the norm.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
If you want to do Pain Medicine, go all the way. Dont try to do an unaccredited fellowship.

Patients dont want to go to someone like this. Referring physicians wont want to refer to you. You wil have difficulties to getting priveleged to hospitals for procedures.

Dont sell yourself or the patient short. Go through the real route or just dont do it.

Of course you will hear 'anecdotal' stories, but ESPECIALLY now, I think they will be the exception more thn the norm.

and you know all of this how? in the real world referring docs don't care as long as the patient gets results. half the time i see patients get crappy results but the physicians are personal friends so the referrals keep going. some good training programs are non-ACGME accredited. if you join a group or go solo you can do most things in your own office and forget about hospitals almost entirely.
 
and you know all of this how? in the real world referring docs don't care as long as the patient gets results. half the time i see patients get crappy results but the physicians are personal friends so the referrals keep going. some good training programs are non-ACGME accredited. if you join a group or go solo you can do most things in your own office and forget about hospitals almost entirely.

Again this is common knowledge. Yes, there's always 'anecdotal' stories.
I think most people applying will want to do an ACGME accredi fellowship than not as well.
 
Again this is common knowledge. Yes, there's always 'anecdotal' stories.
I think most people applying will want to do an ACGME accredi fellowship than not as well.

You need the paper (ACGME) to get privileges....and to advertise yourself.
The competition will try to kill you if you are not "board" certified.
 
and you know all of this how? in the real world referring docs don't care as long as the patient gets results. half the time i see patients get crappy results but the physicians are personal friends so the referrals keep going. some good training programs are non-ACGME accredited. if you join a group or go solo you can do most things in your own office and forget about hospitals almost entirely.

I have first hand knowledge that this information is NOT true...at least not anymore. Interventional pain is very different than other subspecialties. Because it's such a new and lucrative (at least it used to be) subspecialty, there are A LOT of "weekend warriors" with substandard training, providing substandard care and getting substandard outcomes. Hospitals, referring physicans AND insurers are starting to take notice. I have one carrier who initially DENIED my application because my fellowship "wasn't ACGME accredited". My fellowship was at a top ACGME program, so...after having a good laugh, I provided them with the documentation and they approved me. I wonder how many others would have denied me if they thought my fellowship was non-accredited. Also, it's been my experience that referring physicians (at least surgeons) DO care about where you trained. Having gone to a highly regarded program was the ONLY reason I landed my current gig, which is really sweet! There were other pain docs that were VERY interested in this group, but they weren't interested in them.

The way you describe things USED to be true, but not anymore. Almost every urban area is completely saturated. "In the real world", there are too many interventionalists, but too FEW ACGME fellowship trained physicians. Yes, there are some good programs that are non-accredited, but because of the current environment, they're either shutting down or trying to gain accreditation because they can't attract good applicants.
 
Last edited:
Hey I will be applying for a pain fellowship this upcoming year for start in 2011.

This whole applying to every program separately is a real pain, is there any faster way to do this?

Thanks

No...there isn't a faster way! I had a STRONG application but still applied to 20 programs! It was a major pain. However, better to do that than end up without a spot.
 
My biggest fear of doing any fellowship is not being trained as well as I should be. Realistically this is a whole new world to most fellows and to be able to "crush" the competition and offer your patients all the opitions you have to do a variety of procedures and be efficient as well as provide them with a variety of options

How does one during the interview season protect themselves from sub standard programs and is it possible to gain extra skills once your finshed with your fellowship?

Thanks









No...there isn't a faster way! I had a STRONG application but still applied to 20 programs! It was a major pain. However, better to do that than end up without a spot.
 
I have first hand knowledge that this information is NOT true...at least not anymore. Interventional pain is very different than other subspecialties. Because it's such a new and lucrative (at least it used to be) subspecialty, there are A LOT of "weekend warriors" with substandard training, providing substandard care and getting substandard outcomes. Hospitals, referring physicans AND insurers are starting to take notice. I have one carrier who initially DENIED my application because my fellowship "wasn't ACGME accredited". My fellowship was at a top ACGME program, so...after having a good laugh, I provided them with the documentation and they approved me. I wonder how many others would have denied me if they thought my fellowship was non-accredited. Also, it's been my experience that referring physicians (at least surgeons) DO care about where you trained. Having gone to a highly regarded program was the ONLY reason I landed my current gig, which is really sweet! There were other pain docs that were VERY interested in this group, but they weren't interested in them.

The way you describe things USED to be true, but not anymore. Almost every urban area is completely saturated. "In the real world", there are too many interventionalists, but too FEW ACGME fellowship trained physicians. Yes, there are some good programs that are non-accredited, but because of the current environment, they're either shutting down or trying to gain accreditation because they can't attract good applicants.

"used to be".....like how long ago? its not that clear cut yet in my area and i am in a large city. i have firsthand experience that what i wrote still holds true. and you made my point: have good outcomes, patients will come. you don't have to have an ACGME-accredited fellowship to have good outcomes, though you may think so.
 
Again this is common knowledge.


You need the paper (ACGME) to get privileges....and to advertise yourself. The competition will try to kill you if you are not "board" certified

Regardless what your instructors may have told you, I think you guys should get out in practice for a few years and then look back to see if you still believe this.

My perspective is from working in a top 5 (possibly top 3) market in regards to specialist saturation.

Referring physicians don’t view pain management the same way they may view, say, “Harvard trained Neurosurgeon specializing in spinal tumors”. They view pain management the same way they may think of, say, Addictionology. In a competitive region, given a greater choice of pain management physicians, they will refer to the physician who will gladly take the difficult patients, and do so with a good bedside manner. The procedures are an afterthought.

In my area, one of the busiest “pain management” physicians is a primary care physician that does palliative care. Why does he get so many referrals? Because he does a lot of hospital consults and does a good job with the difficult patients. A few of the interventionalists who have a lockdown on the market are not fellowship trained.

If I need to send a patient for a discectomy, I literally have 15+ Ortho spine/Neurosurgeons close by that I can refer to. They’re all well trained so it doesn’t mean much at that point. I’ll refer to the surgeon who is conservative, good clinically and technically, and most of all, has a good bedside manner and spends time educating the patient.

When I refer to an Addiction specialist or Psychiatrist, I don’t even look at where they trained. I go by reputation as it pertains to bedside manner and being able to handle difficult patients.

In my area, if the surgeons are looking to bring someone in house for procedures, while a good global institutional name (don’t expect them to know Texas Tech has a good fellowship program) looks good on your application, the bottom line is “Who can churn out injections/EMGs quickly and will do so for the lowest salary”.

Hospital credentialing is generally not an issue, because no one in my area wants to use the hospitals. They all want to use their own surgery centers or office procedure room. The cases that should be done in a hospital are the cases that most interventional pain physicians here don’t want to do.
 
My biggest fear of doing any fellowship is not being trained as well as I should be. Realistically this is a whole new world to most fellows and to be able to "crush" the competition and offer your patients all the opitions you have to do a variety of procedures and be efficient as well as provide them with a variety of options

How does one during the interview season protect themselves from sub standard programs and is it possible to gain extra skills once your finshed with your fellowship?

Thanks

wait a minute.....lets think about this. the majority of people, and i mean 99% of the people you will see, have relatively simple problems. facet pain, disk pain, etc. you will treat them just fine with simple things like facet injections, epidurals, RF, etc. you are worried about having to do the exotic procedures that you will not need as often and will not be reimbursed well in the future anyway. from what i have seen, a fellowship often is when i guy or gal learns how to do procedures, but sometimes doesn't have the basics. i don't know, its just my experience that SOME fellowship trained guys (not anyone here of course!) look at the MRI, decide the plan, and procedurize, without really looking at the patient, talking to the patient, examining the patient and deciding what might be best. true, everyday experience in my office.
 
I have first hand knowledge that this information is NOT true...at least not anymore. Interventional pain is very different than other subspecialties. Because it's such a new and lucrative (at least it used to be) subspecialty, there are A LOT of "weekend warriors" with substandard training, providing substandard care and getting substandard outcomes. Hospitals, referring physicans AND insurers are starting to take notice. I have one carrier who initially DENIED my application because my fellowship "wasn't ACGME accredited". My fellowship was at a top ACGME program, so...after having a good laugh, I provided them with the documentation and they approved me. I wonder how many others would have denied me if they thought my fellowship was non-accredited. Also, it's been my experience that referring physicians (at least surgeons) DO care about where you trained. Having gone to a highly regarded program was the ONLY reason I landed my current gig, which is really sweet! There were other pain docs that were VERY interested in this group, but they weren't interested in them.

The way you describe things USED to be true, but not anymore. Almost every urban area is completely saturated. "In the real world", there are too many interventionalists, but too FEW ACGME fellowship trained physicians. Yes, there are some good programs that are non-accredited, but because of the current environment, they're either shutting down or trying to gain accreditation because they can't attract good applicants.

This is what I was saying and I agree with this.

I can tell you that a lot of referring docs DO look at where you've trained etc. I think ACGME fellowship trained docs SHOULD advertise the fact that there is difference b/w the two, that way there's transparency b/w those that are and those that are not.

When given the choice, between a Mercedes and a Toyota Corrolla....the choice is usually obvious, usually.

There's no question there are a lot of 'quacks' out there that advertise themselves as "Pain Docs" including chiropractors! Patients need to know the difference and deserve to know the difference.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Hey I will be applying for a pain fellowship this upcoming year for start in 2011.

I scored a 32 on my ITE during my CA-1 year and have a few pending publications. I am looking for a fellowship in the northeast, thats heavy in procedures. I want to have as much experience doing different procedures. I do not care if I have to do 2 years to gain the full experience.

My question is are there any hidden small programs out there that are strong but overlooked? Also any non accredited programs that are strong? and what does it mean to do a non accredited program for the future (is there anyone out there that has done this and doing well)?

This whole applying to every program separately is a real pain, is there any faster way to do this?

Thanks

There are no "strong but overlooked" programs or "hidden gems". If a program is strong, it is NOT overlooked. The competition for good programs is intense.
 
My biggest fear of doing any fellowship is not being trained as well as I should be. Realistically this is a whole new world to most fellows and to be able to "crush" the competition and offer your patients all the opitions you have to do a variety of procedures and be efficient as well as provide them with a variety of options

How does one during the interview season protect themselves from sub standard programs and is it possible to gain extra skills once your finshed with your fellowship?

Thanks

The way you protect yourself, is by not applying to subpar programs. I had a mentor who educated me about where to apply. There is also a lot of information on this forum about which programs are good and which ones are not.
 
"used to be".....like how long ago? its not that clear cut yet in my area and i am in a large city. i have firsthand experience that what i wrote still holds true. and you made my point: have good outcomes, patients will come. you don't have to have an ACGME-accredited fellowship to have good outcomes, though you may think so.

Are you a practicing physician? What you wrote may hold true in YOUR area. I sald, "ALMOST every urban area is saturated". I have friends in LA, Houston, Cleveland, and Philadelphia. Those areas are saturated. I've HEARD that NY, Chicago, Atlanta, Dallas and Boston are saturated. I have a friend in New Orleans. That city is not saturated. I've HEARD that Kansas City is not saturated.

I'm in a smaller midwestern city, with a population of approximately 850,000 (including suburbs). We are saturated. I know of at least 18 interventionalists in the area. Of these, only a few are from well known programs...Texas Tech, MD Anderson, Cleveland Clinic, B&W, Baylor. But many of the others have at least completed some type of ACGME fellowship. In MY area, it is the people from accredited fellowships, but especially those from big name programs who "own" the market. The people from non-accredited programs or those without fellowship training are left to pick up the crumbs and scrape by.

No, I DON'T think you have to have an ACGME accredited fellowship to have good outcomes. I never said that. I specifically said there ARE some good non-accredited programs. I also said that one carrier initially denied my application because they thought my fellowship was non-accredited. How many other carriers have, or will have this type of policy? I don't know. But I do know that no matter HOW good you are, if the insurance won't pay, the patient will go elsewhere.
 
Last edited:
Regardless what your instructors may have told you, I think you guys should get out in practice for a few years and then look back to see if you still believe this.

My perspective is from working in a top 5 (possibly top 3) market in regards to specialist saturation.

Referring physicians don't view pain management the same way they may view, say, "Harvard trained Neurosurgeon specializing in spinal tumors". They view pain management the same way they may think of, say, Addictionology. In a competitive region, given a greater choice of pain management physicians, they will refer to the physician who will gladly take the difficult patients, and do so with a good bedside manner. The procedures are an afterthought.

In my area, one of the busiest "pain management" physicians is a primary care physician that does palliative care. Why does he get so many referrals? Because he does a lot of hospital consults and does a good job with the difficult patients. A few of the interventionalists who have a lockdown on the market are not fellowship trained

If I need to send a patient for a discectomy, I literally have 15+ Ortho spine/Neurosurgeons close by that I can refer to. They're all well trained so it doesn't mean much at that point. I'll refer to the surgeon who is conservative, good clinically and technically, and most of all, has a good bedside manner and spends time educating the patient.

In my area, if the surgeons are looking to bring someone in house for procedures, while a good global institutional name (don't expect them to know Texas Tech has a good fellowship program) looks good on your application, the bottom line is "Who can churn out injections/EMGs quickly and will do so for the lowest salary".

Hospital credentialing is generally not an issue, because no one in my area wants to use the hospitals. They all want to use their own surgery centers or office procedure room. The cases that should be done in a hospital are the cases that most interventional pain physicians here don't want to do.

Regarding the importance of obtaining an ACGME fellowship, after being in practice for a few years I believe this is more important than ever! Most of MY friends and colleagues, feel the same way.

In my market, there are several pain management physicians who ONLY do medication management. The rest of us are interventionalists and most of us work for ourselves...not the surgeons or the hospitals, therefore, the procedures are not an afterthought, they ARE our business, so it goes without saying that one must have a good bedside manner, be flexible, easy to work with and provide good patient care.

If you have interventionalists who "have a lockdown on the market" but don't even have fellowship training, I'll bet they're all nearing retirement.

Many of us work in house with surgical groups, but as I said earlier, we don't work for them, we work for ourselves. Therefore, salary isn't an issue, but good patient care is. Given a choice of interventionalists (all known to have good outcomes and provide good, compassionate care), they'll take the person with the well known fellowship. I mean really...who wouldn't? This is exactly what recently happened to me.

In my area, hospital credentialing IS an issue. While some of us have or use ASC's or office suites, we still need hospital privileges. Some of us work exclusively in hospitals. The last two hospitals I worked for/with required ACGME fellowships.

Obviously, your particular area is different in many ways. However, I've kept in close contact with all my colleagues from fellowship. We're scattered across the country. We're ALL very thankful we had the privilege of going to a top ACGME fellowship.
 
Last edited:
Hey I will be applying for a pain fellowship this upcoming year for start in 2011.

I scored a 32 on my ITE during my CA-1 year and have a few pending publications. I am looking for a fellowship in the northeast, thats heavy in procedures. I want to have as much experience doing different procedures. I do not care if I have to do 2 years to gain the full experience.

My question is are there any hidden small programs out there that are strong but overlooked? Also any non accredited programs that are strong? and what does it mean to do a non accredited program for the future (is there anyone out there that has done this and doing well)?

This whole applying to every program separately is a real pain, is there any faster way to do this?

Thanks

Obviously an ACGME accredited program, followed by ABMS Boards will open the most doors. But, like it's been said, there are some great non-accredited programs too. There are many opportunities to learn and improve your skills once you're in practice. There are other pain boards too. If I'm not mistaken, Elliot Krames is a pretty big name in neuromodulation (past president of INS) and he's involved with the ABPM and their boards which have totally different standards and requirements. Certainly try your best to get an ACGME accredited program, but don't freak out if you don't get one. I finished my fellowship in 08' and haven't sat for the pain boards yet. Only one patient has asked me, "Are you board certified?" And they weren't even talking about pain boards.
 
Regarding the importance of obtaining an ACGME fellowship, after being in practice for a few years I believe this is more important than ever! Most of MY friends and colleagues, feel the same way.

In my market, there are several pain management physicians who ONLY do medication management. The rest of us are interventionalists and most of us work for ourselves...not the surgeons or the hospitals, therefore, the procedures are not an afterthought, they ARE our business, so it goes without saying that one must have a good bedside manner, be flexible, easy to work with and provide good patient care.

If you have interventionalists who "have a lockdown on the market" but don't even have fellowship training, I'll bet they're all nearing retirement...

They’re actually in their mid 40’s, and spread amongst several practices.

You misunderstood me about the procedures being an afterthought. “Afterthought” for the PCPs, not the pain doctor. Sure, the PCPs may send some patients directly for ESIs, but in the big picture, their main concern is that the pain doctor help them out with patients that have narcotic issues they don’t feel comfortable dealing with, or don’t want to deal with.

Hospital privileges vary depending on locale, so we probably shouldn’t make blanket statements on this.

Of the three hospitals I have privileges at, one had one delineation of privileges sheet for anesthesiologists (which required an ACGME fellowship) and a separate one for Physiatrists where the procedures were listed under core privileges and did not require any fellowship. The second hospital had a sheet of core anesthesiology privileges and then a blank sheet where you would write in the pain procedures you were applying for, but did not require an accredited fellowship. The third had a long checklist of pain procedures, but no mention of accreditation status.

As long as you get admitting privileges somewhere, the requirement for insurance is typically fulfilled (**I had privileges for RF denied at one hospital because they didn’t have an RF generator, this didn’t cause any carriers to stop paying for RF).

I don’t doubt your experience with the insurance company who required an accredited fellowship, but the major carriers are not doing this i.e. the Blues, Aetna, United/Pacificare, Liberty Mutual and Traveler’s for Work Comp, etc.

Regarding the surgical groups, obviously Mayo, CCF, Hopkins, Harvard, etc. would look good on anyone’s CV, for any specialty. Outside of the global reputations of certain institutions, the surgeons don’t know which pain fellowships are good, unless there is a pain doctor in the group who tells them. The more competitive a given area, the more likely a surgical group will be able to find a new grad willing to work for cheap.

Obviously, there are only advantages in going to a good fellowship. I don’t think anyone would claim otherwise. However, in the context of the OP, as it pertains to this specialty (possibly due to fledgling status of the specialty), it is not the determining factor of success.
 
I can tell you that a lot of referring docs DO look at where you've trained etc. I think ACGME fellowship trained docs SHOULD advertise the fact that there is difference b/w the two, that way there's transparency b/w those that are and those that are not.

How do you make these types of statements not having gotten out of training yet?

Sure, if someone's looking up your profile on the internet, it looks good to have big name institutions on your CV. Do you want chronic pain patients seeking out your services in this manner?

In my area, many of the pain docs do just as you've described: advertise ABMS, ACGME, etc. on their letter heads, websites, etc. Has it put certain practices ahead of others in terms of referrals and growth? No it has not.

The reason it hasn't is the same reason other specialties (Cards, GI, Neurosurg, etc.) don't need to advertise ABMS, ACGME, etc. It has to do with the way the specialty is perceived and the way patients and other physicians wish to utilize pain management services.

Pain Medicine is not there yet in terms of respect or recognition by other physicians or patients, which is why there is all the talk about lengthening fellowships, pain residency, etc.

I think you're confusing the way things are with the way you'd like them to be.
 
How do you make these types of statements not having gotten out of training yet?

Sure, if someone's looking up your profile on the internet, it looks good to have big name institutions on your CV. Do you want chronic pain patients seeking out your services in this manner?

In my area, many of the pain docs do just as you've described: advertise ABMS, ACGME, etc. on their letter heads, websites, etc. Has it put certain practices ahead of others in terms of referrals and growth? No it has not.

The reason it hasn't is the same reason other specialties (Cards, GI, Neurosurg, etc.) don't need to advertise ABMS, ACGME, etc. It has to do with the way the specialty is perceived and the way patients and other physicians wish to utilize pain management services.

Pain Medicine is not there yet in terms of respect or recognition by other physicians or patients, which is why there is all the talk about lengthening fellowships, pain residency, etc.

I think you're confusing the way things are with the way you'd like them to be.

Agreed. Sleep you will soon see notes from the primary care physician. the plan says, refer to pain management. NO name, no practice usually. primary care practices have referral coordinators that try to get the patient into wherever they can get them the soonest. you can buy these referrals with some starbucks giftcards and cookies, which maybe i should start doing.
 
You misunderstood me about the procedures being an afterthought. “Afterthought” for the PCPs, not the pain doctor. Sure, the PCPs may send some patients directly for ESIs, but in the big picture, their main concern is that the pain doctor help them out with patients that have narcotic issues they don’t feel comfortable dealing with, or don’t want to deal with.

.


I repectfully disagree. PCP send me patients because i take care of their PROBLEMS, whether it be through interventons, PT, meds, and rarely narcs. PCPs dont look at me as their narcotic solutions, unless they are of course a PCP that i dont really know and they dont know what i do. The majority of my bigger referral sources rarely, if ever send me a narcotic dump. they send me patients because i do what i can,get good results, and do it without putting them through the ringer, and without putting them on life long "coping medication".

i would get more PCP referrals, at least some of the docs who dont like to send patients to me becuase all they have are drug addled patients, if i did more medication management, i will agree with that...
 
How do you make these types of statements not having gotten out of training yet?

Sure, if someone's looking up your profile on the internet, it looks good to have big name institutions on your CV. Do you want chronic pain patients seeking out your services in this manner?

In my area, many of the pain docs do just as you've described: advertise ABMS, ACGME, etc. on their letter heads, websites, etc. Has it put certain practices ahead of others in terms of referrals and growth? No it has not.

The reason it hasn't is the same reason other specialties (Cards, GI, Neurosurg, etc.) don't need to advertise ABMS, ACGME, etc. It has to do with the way the specialty is perceived and the way patients and other physicians wish to utilize pain management services.

Pain Medicine is not there yet in terms of respect or recognition by other physicians or patients, which is why there is all the talk about lengthening fellowships, pain residency, etc.

I think you're confusing the way things are with the way you'd like them to be.

Yah I'm still in training, but so what?

I've taken consults as a resident and have given consults to Pain docs (when my attending when I was an intern would tellus to refer to Dr. SoandSo). Now, at the end of my training, I've gotten back to those same PCPs and asked them WHY they refer to Dr. X. The reply I usually get is very similar to what PainDr and I have been saying on here.

PCPs are not stupid. I cant speak for how referrals were done BACK in the day..but nowadays many (again not ALL) look at where the Pain doc went to training and check out if they are BC/ACGME certified.

Look you might be successful and that's great. You may be the exception. If the original poster graduates from a non-acgme fellowship, he would be taking a gamble. why would he want to take a gamble after working for one extra year at a resident salary (potentially loosing out on 200K or) and then come out and NOT get priveleged,etc?

Do it the right way, go to a ACGME accredited fellowship and you will not have to worry...in ANY market.
 
I did an ACGME accredited fellowship because I wanted to be board certified and wanted the best training FOR ME.(I was and still am interested in academics) Now that I'm in private practice, it's my bedside manner, the timely notes/phone calls to the referring docs, and the feedback my patients give the referring PCPs that matter more than my training. Obviously being pain boarded makes me a little more competitive in a saturated market with a lot of pain doctors - and that's one less thing those competitors can use as reason why they are superior. Some patients are more educated about board certifications and institutions - those patients usually have family members who are physicians or are physicians themselves.

I don't know if it makes a difference in a medico legal situation (I have heard of non-fellowship trained docs taking a weekend course or two then having catastrophic outcomes getting successfully sued) but as long as you are a conscientious (i.e. knows his/her own comfort zone and limits) and ethical (no used car salesman or overly aggressive vibe) physician who communicates well with not just the patients but also referring docs (whether internal or external), you will do well.

just my 2cents.
 
They're actually in their mid 40's, and spread amongst several practices.

You misunderstood me about the procedures being an afterthought. "Afterthought" for the PCPs, not the pain doctor. Sure, the PCPs may send some patients directly for ESIs, but in the big picture, their main concern is that the pain doctor help them out with patients that have narcotic issues they don't feel comfortable dealing with, or don't want to deal with.

Hospital privileges vary depending on locale, so we probably shouldn't make blanket statements on this.

Of the three hospitals I have privileges at, one had one delineation of privileges sheet for anesthesiologists (which required an ACGME fellowship) and a separate one for Physiatrists where the procedures were listed under core privileges and did not require any fellowship. The second hospital had a sheet of core anesthesiology privileges and then a blank sheet where you would write in the pain procedures you were applying for, but did not require an accredited fellowship. The third had a long checklist of pain procedures, but no mention of accreditation status.

As long as you get admitting privileges somewhere, the requirement for insurance is typically fulfilled (**I had privileges for RF denied at one hospital because they didn't have an RF generator, this didn't cause any carriers to stop paying for RF).

I don't doubt your experience with the insurance company who required an accredited fellowship, but the major carriers are not doing this i.e. the Blues, Aetna, United/Pacificare, Liberty Mutual and Traveler's for Work Comp, etc.

Regarding the surgical groups, obviously Mayo, CCF, Hopkins, Harvard, etc. would look good on anyone's CV, for any specialty. Outside of the global reputations of certain institutions, the surgeons don't know which pain fellowships are good, unless there is a pain doctor in the group who tells them. The more competitive a given area, the more likely a surgical group will be able to find a new grad willing to work for cheap.

Obviously, there are only advantages in going to a good fellowship. I don't think anyone would claim otherwise. However, in the context of the OP, as it pertains to this specialty (possibly due to fledgling status of the specialty), it is not the determining factor of success.

Hmmm...first you said they "had a lockdown on the market", now you say they are "spread amongst several practices". If they are "spread amongst several practices, how are THEY dominating their market and exactly how many are we actually talking about...out of how many interventionalists in your market? We BOTH know the specialty is evolving RAPIDLY. What's true today, regarding credentialling, or acceptance by insurance carriers may not be true tomorrow.

Remember the old days, when ALL you needed to be a generalist was a medical degree and internship?!?! Would ANYONE think that's OK now? We all know the cream will rise to the top (by that, I actually mean the BEST physicians). However, if you going to sit here and advise young physicians to seek out non-accredited fellowships or to forgo fellowship training altogether...well sorry...I just don't know how to end this without being insulting so I'll just stop now.
 
Last edited:
Hmmm...first you said they "had a lockdown on the market", now you say they are "spread amongst several practices". If they are "spread amongst several practices, how are THEY dominating their market and exactly how many are we actually talking about...out of how many interventionalists in your market? We BOTH know the specialty is evolving RAPIDLY. What's true today, regarding credentialling, or acceptance by insurance carriers may not be true tomorrow.

Remember the old days, when ALL you needed to be a generalist was a medical degree and internship?!?! Would ANYONE think that's OK now? We all know the cream will rise to the top (by that, I actually mean the BEST physicians). However, if you going to sit here and advise young physicians to seek out non-accredited fellowships or to forgo fellowship training altogether...well sorry...I just don't know how to end this without being insulting so I'll just stop now.

That's correct, a group of practices have a lockdown on the market. I never said that every member of each group was without fellowship training.

You need to calm down.

Nobody is advising the OP to seek out non-accredited fellowships or to forego fellowship training.

We are simply providing information that may be useful.

You and SleepIsGood seem to be confusing that with the way you would like to see things pan out for the specialty.
 
That's correct, a group of practices have a lockdown on the market. I never said that every member of each group was without fellowship training.

You need to calm down.

Nobody is advising the OP to seek out non-accredited fellowships or to forego fellowship training.

We are simply providing information that may be useful.

You and SleepIsGood seem to be confusing that with the way you would like to see things pan out for the specialty.

It's not where I'd like to see things pan out for the specialty. It's where things are panning out for the specialty. Don't shoot the messenger.
 
It's not where I'd like to see things pan out for the specialty. It's where things are panning out for the specialty. Don't shoot the messenger.

I thought we were providing information for the OP. That is your opinion and perspective. Let's not put that our there as fact.

From what I see, the way things are panning out is that the government is going to take a very big bite out of all of us (especially Interventional Pain Management) in the near future.
 
That's correct, a group of practices have a lockdown on the market. I never said that every member of each group was without fellowship training.

You need to calm down.

Nobody is advising the OP to seek out non-accredited fellowships or to forego fellowship training.

We are simply providing information that may be useful.

You and SleepIsGood seem to be confusing that with the way you would like to see things pan out for the specialty.

Agree. People tend to menstruate when they feel their turf is being threatened.
 
I thought we were providing information for the OP. That is your opinion and perspective. Let's not put that our there as fact.

From what I see, the way things are panning out is that the government is going to take a very big bite out of all of us (especially Interventional Pain Management) in the near future.

This may be slightly off topic, but at what point will practices tell the government/insurance to "pound sand" and switch to cash only/decent insurance only?
 
This may be slightly off topic, but at what point will practices tell the government/insurance to "pound sand" and switch to cash only/decent insurance only?

When it becomes economically advantageous to do so. Even with the declining reimbursements we're seeing, not enough people in this country would be willing to pay the same amount or more of their own money for our services. Out of all the spinal cord stims I've placed, maybe 1% of my patients would have considered the cost worthy of their own money. For blocks, maybe 50%. For opiates 100%. That's why our health care system is so expensive, people have no clue, nor do they care, about the cost of services. But that's another story...
 
This may be slightly off topic, but at what point will practices tell the government/insurance to "pound sand" and switch to cash only/decent insurance only?

How many people are going to pay you out-of-pocket $500 for an injection and fork over another $1500 to the ASC or $2500 to the hospital where you did it?

How many will look at that $500 bill and scream "$500 for 15 minutes of work?!?!? What the hell did you inject in my back, GOLD?!?"

I believe we overvalue our work due to the history of insurance payments and patients undervalue our work for the same reasons.

Pain Management + Cash only = Drug seeker and DEA target.
 
How many people are going to pay you out-of-pocket $500 for an injection and fork over another $1500 to the ASC or $2500 to the hospital where you did it?

How many will look at that $500 bill and scream "$500 for 15 minutes of work?!?!? What the hell did you inject in my back, GOLD?!?"

I believe we overvalue our work due to the history of insurance payments and patients undervalue our work for the same reasons.

Pain Management + Cash only = Drug seeker and DEA target.

I agree. If I were to go to a cash business. No one woul pay for procedures. They get pissed off about how much they sometimes have to pay WITH insurance. Forget SCS. no one would pay for that. Some might pay for spine injections. But pretty much everyone will say, "wouldn't it be cheaper just to get a pill" If the governement devalues these procdures then our field will become purely med mgt for the most part
 
.
That's correct, a group of practices have a lockdown on the market. I never said that every member of each group was without fellowship training.

You need to calm down.

Nobody is advising the OP to seek out non-accredited fellowships or to forego fellowship training.

We are simply providing information that may be useful.

You and SleepIsGood seem to be confusing that with the way you would like to see things pan out for the specialty.

I live in a top 4 city in terms of population. My experience in the pain market is similar to what disciple has said.

I am ACGME trained and board certified. However many pain doctors who are not still have no problem getting privaledges and have no problems getting on any insurance plan. and they certainly get referrals. trust me I know they are the competition.
 
It seems that the responders with the most experience have been saying the same thing. Hmmm, I wonder who is right? The ones with experience or the ones who actually haven't been there.

I am a resident too and I have done several pain consults in the hospital as well during residency but I don't this qualifies me to respond as if I am working on my own for several years.
 
It seems that the responders with the most experience have been saying the same thing. Hmmm, I wonder who is right? The ones with experience or the ones who actually haven't been there.

I am a resident too and I have done several pain consults in the hospital as well during residency but I don't this qualifies me to respond as if I am working on my own for several years.

Actually, it's not been a consistent theme and the ones with the most experience have NOT been saying the same thing. I THINK that Disciple and I have the most real life experience, but have very different opinions. Our opinions are based on our experiences in our own respective markets.

i don't know of any study evaluating the importance of having an ACGME fellowship, therefore, all we really have are opinions. Mine are based on my market and those of my friends. My opinions are no less valid than those of Disciple.
 
Hello all, would like someone in this forum for an opinion..
I have been practicing anesthesiology in private for 3 years now. Not satisfied overall with career choice. Feel Pain Medicine will close the gap between what I do now (the impersonal, unrecognized OR production line) and what I think would have been a better choice for me in the first place (an interventional medical specialty ie GI, cardio, etc)
I consider myself very good with procedures and feel it can't hurt in a field like interventional pain medicine so I am all for it. Decision is already made...
The questions are regarding the future of the specialty:

1)recognition (someone mentioned PCP's don't really care who their patients are been refered as long as they can get in fast) is this true for everyone? Would like to hear different peoples experiences in their "markets"
2)reinbursement: over the past say, 5 years, can someone give a figure how the change has bee? ie, percentage decrease per patient visit/procedure, etc. Has anyone has an actuall increase?? Obviously things can change dramatically in the coming years for everyone in medicine period, but if not...would like to have an idea of where the current trend is heading to...
3)Liability: anyone could disclose their area typical malpractice insurance rates? Can anyone coment in general about malpractice in the field, incidence, typical cases or procedures that triggers malpractice, typical complications, typical patient that initiates sues, etc.
4)Cost of running a typical Pain office
5)Quality of Life compared to Anesthesiology. If I like somenthing about my job is the time I get off. Of course, weekend and nigths off as a Pain doctor are ver atractive. But I wonder what is the true story in Pain Medicine as far as quality of life..

I think that is it for now, Thanks
 
Actually, it's not been a consistent theme and the ones with the most experience have NOT been saying the same thing. I THINK that Disciple and I have the most real life experience, but have very different opinions. Our opinions are based on our experiences in our own respective markets.

i don't know of any study evaluating the importance of having an ACGME fellowship, therefore, all we really have are opinions. Mine are based on my market and those of my friends. My opinions are no less valid than those of Disciple.

You're right...your posts were different.
 
Hello all, would like someone in this forum for an opinion..
I have been practicing anesthesiology in private for 3 years now. Not satisfied overall with career choice. Feel Pain Medicine will close the gap between what I do now (the impersonal, unrecognized OR production line) and what I think would have been a better choice for me in the first place (an interventional medical specialty ie GI, cardio, etc)
I consider myself very good with procedures and feel it can't hurt in a field like interventional pain medicine so I am all for it. Decision is already made...
The questions are regarding the future of the specialty:

1)recognition (someone mentioned PCP's don't really care who their patients are been refered as long as they can get in fast) is this true for everyone? Would like to hear different peoples experiences in their "markets"
2)reinbursement: over the past say, 5 years, can someone give a figure how the change has bee? ie, percentage decrease per patient visit/procedure, etc. Has anyone has an actuall increase?? Obviously things can change dramatically in the coming years for everyone in medicine period, but if not...would like to have an idea of where the current trend is heading to...
3)Liability: anyone could disclose their area typical malpractice insurance rates? Can anyone coment in general about malpractice in the field, incidence, typical cases or procedures that triggers malpractice, typical complications, typical patient that initiates sues, etc.
4)Cost of running a typical Pain office
5)Quality of Life compared to Anesthesiology. If I like somenthing about my job is the time I get off. Of course, weekend and nigths off as a Pain doctor are ver atractive. But I wonder what is the true story in Pain Medicine as far as quality of life..

I think that is it for now, Thanks

Sure - glad to give you an answer - puff, puff, pass......
 
Thanks for the discouragement words, you are not the first.
I have the feeling the insecure people in the field, probably a minority, just want to discourage the rest of us from their precious little market with your kind of response...when nothing positve to say better stay quiet right?

First of all I would like to apologize if I made you feel bad...
Join the private forum and there are a lot of experienced pain medicine physicians (way better than me) to answer some of your question.
You asked a lot of questions and seems that you didn't do your own research before...
Your last post shows anger (thank you Dr. Phil :laugh:) - chill down dude!
Pain medicine is a cool field with cool doctors.
 
Top