I need advice--windsor and aua

[ilovepath]

I was dismissed from a US medical school but have decided to pursue a medical degree. In the US school I have completed up until the end of 3rd year minus a core pediatrics rotation. Currently I applied to carribean schools and have been accepted into windsor and aua. I appreciate honest advice from well-informed and intentioned and non-biased people who sincerely want to help. My target residency is path.

I need to move fast to make sure the start is in january as opposed to may. A decision should be made fast and depends on aua vs. windsor in the following areas:

ability to get laons, both don't have federal sallie mae and will likely be high interest private
relative success of getting a path residency based on history of success of prior grads @ windsor vs aua
amount of credit awarded
ease/availability of electives/ green book viable elective sites.

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[ilovepath]

If WIndsor gives me more credit would that be a deal-breaker--they said they would start me where I left off, plus they are 5K/sem, vs aua which I believe is 11K. At this point if aua decides to only give since beginning of 3rd yr, we are talking a good 20-40k difference in tuition. My honest question would be would a difference in reputation mean that much? I personally would rather crank out a great step2 and work my butt off in electives to shine. Keep in mind I'm not rich, and 20-40k means a lot right now.

Again for those reading and not posting, I appreciate your time and energy to help a colleague trying to pull themselves back up.

 

[Joe Richards]

If you go to Ross/SGU/AUC/SABA you will be able to practice medicine anywhere in the USA.

You may have to redo 3rd year. But at the end you are in a far better place.

You get what you pay for.

 

[ilovepath]

Keep in mind the only options on the table are AUA and Windsor. Advice I've received so far is that step 2/lor derived from electives help to level out the playing field slightly, and institution name at least when comparing aua and windsor doesn't have as much weight as step 2 and lors.

 

[ilovepath]

Are there any states you can't get your license in in both windsor and aua? Are there any that you can't do you residency in, with both windsor and aua?

 

[dragonfly99]

Ilovepath,
According to what someone has posted above, it looks like Windsor and AUA both haven't been approved in several states. Each state (individually) gets to make its own rules about what credentials you have to have to be licensed there. Some won't approve licenses for folks from certain schools. You need to be really careful, and at least to check with the medical boards of several states where you'd consider practicing in the future, and make sure these school(s) are accepted by them before you even think of going there.

windsor, from what I know, isn't really that reputable. The other school that you mentioned I don't know.

Keep in mind also that certain states require that you did most of your med school at the same school/location. I think California has some sort of rule like that. I mean, it seems you are looking to get credit for most of your 3rd year, but the thing is, a lot of states might not accept your MD from Windsor anyhow (either because they don't accept that place as a legitimate medical school, or because they won't accept a graduate who did only slightly >1 year at the school where he graduated). I know you want to avoid paying more money, but you have to think about what you are paying money FOR. You are paying money so that you'll have a shot at getting a residency, not just graduating. Graduating and then not being able to get any residency leaves you with an almost useless degree, assuming that practicing in the USA is what you want.

Just as an example of what states may require, you can check the web site of the California Medical Board. They have a list of approved medical schools on there. It's a long list containing many foreign schools. They also have a list of schools that they have specifically disapproved...I don't see Windsor and AUA on there, but St Matthews is on the disapproved list (for example). Here's the link for the list of "approved" schools:

http://www.medbd.ca.gov/applicant/schools_recognized,html

Another thing you need to think about really, really hard is that all states that I know of have a lot of questions on their medical license applications that you have to answer. One of them is always a question about whether you have ever been dismissed or withdrawn from a medical school. If you answered yes then you have to explain why, etc. I don't have any idea of the circumstances of why you left your old school, but I'm pretty sure they'll investigate that. I am worried it might hurt your chances for getting a license anywhere, especially if your old school tells them something unflattering about you. And you don't want to do another couple years of school and then residency for a couple of years and then find out you can't get a license anyhow - that would suck. Also it might be hard to get a residency to take you if they find out about your history...some I guess depends on why you left your old school and how it reflects on you.

You might want to get advice from a lawyer experienced with your type of case before you re-enroll in medical school - it might be hard fo find one but I think there are some. You just don't want to end up wasting your time in any school. Above all I wouldn't be in a super big rush to just go somewhere...you want a degree that means something, and to be sure you have a chance at actually practicing or what is the point? Otherwise it might be better to just go into some type of other business or health care management, etc.

 

[dragonfly99]

Agree with Drrichards,
you should listen to him - he is an attending.
I don't see how any medical school can provide any type of education for just 5k/semester. You want your degree to mean something, and residency programs are wise to the fact that some Caribbean schools are just diploma mills. I'm not saying this school is or it isn't, but you'd better beware and do your research. Many schools will take your money, but you want your MD degree to mean that you are ready for residency, and also that the degree isn't just a piece of paper, that it gives you a chance at getting where you want to go. I mean I can go get a master's degree online, maybe even a PhD, but some of them are useless crap because the schools aren't accredited and nobody takes the degree seriously...you don't want that.

 

[ilovepath]

I'm just letting you know that I know of someone like me who did the windsor track and managed to get a residency successfully.

 

[dragonfly99]

OP, just because you know of a person or two who went to a particular school and got a residency doesn't mean a whole lot. What you want to know is was the person well trained, and also did they get any kind of residency that you would want, and also probably what % of students who go through that school actually get a residency? You just don't want to put yourself behind the 8-ball more than you already are. Certain ones of the schools down there (like St George, Ross, probably SABA) have a decent track record but a lot of those other ones don't. They WILL take your money, but from your point of view you just want to make sure you aren't wasting your money.

 

[ashah0224]

this person you know ... what did they get a residency in? and in where?

have you found any statistics about other graduates from windsor?

be careful ... you dont want to be stuck, you know.

 

[ilovepath]

Neurology, I don't know the exact %. Thank you for your sincere help.
I suppose the most important issue is to call state licensing boards like ny and fl to determine if they allow windsor graduates to be licensed. THe unanimous opinion is aua enjoys a better accrediation, though I need to get the hard facts from the licensing boards. Thank you so much for your sincere help, this is a decision I need to make promptly, and would like to make it as well-informed as possible.

 

[ilovepath]

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Is there a website or licensing phone number to call to incontravertibly determine the status or MD graduates to obtain licenses, specifically for aua and windsor? I keep hearing california etc in the forum, but would like an original source if anyone has one? Also is there a %/type of residents generated found anywhere online? Thank you, hopefully this may help fellow colleagues that are as ignorant as myself.

 

[dragonfly99]

http://www.medbd.ca.gov/applicant/sc...ecognized,html

This is the link that has all the schools that are approved in California. If your 2 schools are not on this list, then you will not be able to get a California medical license if you graduate from one of these. I don't think there is a definitive list for all states anywhere...you need to check with them individually.

California is one of the tougher states...I'm sure there are several states that would probably accept these schools. However, a more important problem will be can you get a residency coming from there, with a history of having withdrawn from a US school. That's kind of a double whammy. I would worry more about that.

 

[howelljolly]

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Is there a website or licensing phone number to call to incontravertibly determine the status or MD graduates to obtain licenses, specifically for aua and windsor? I keep hearing california etc in the forum, but would like an original source if anyone has one? Also is there a %/type of residents generated found anywhere online? Thank you, hopefully this may help fellow colleagues that are as ignorant as myself.

when you find it, let me know.

Check the websites for each school to see where they send their grads. AUA is a newer school, but is accredited in NY... so I think thats a good thing.

 

[ilovepath]

Yeah, what I hear is New York and Florida are moderately hard to get, California is the most difficult to get.

 

[NAVYLABTECH08]

Neither.

 

[ilovepath]

I clearly want to make an informed decision--I called some licensing boards like new york, where they knew they accepted aua but haven't heard of windsor. I also called other places I was accepted at, like St Matthews University who said there were a bunch of windsor students transferring there bc they thought windsor was closing their doors. I'm just trying to make an honest, informed decision and there are a few things about windsor that make me uncomfortable: no real loans (they ask you to register for a college called midwest to get sallie mae loans wtf?), they have never returned my calls, I still haven't been sent an acceptance letter, they have a bunch of malpractice and hospital fees added which should be part of tuition, when you call the clinical coordinator up to ask what hospitals you are allowed to rotate in they say they are not allowed to disclose unless you are a student. On the other hand they are on WHO ECFMG and have made residents, unsure about fully licensed. Am I seeing a sufficient # of red flags? Does St Kitts have a hx of non-accredited, shady institutions eg. St Theresa's? If anyone has more knowledge let me know--I am assuming on the other hand aua is pretty reputable and def. accredited as it pops up on lisencure lists like in NY.

 

[howelljolly]

I clearly want to make an informed decision--I called some licensing boards like new york, where they knew they accepted aua but haven't heard of windsor. I also called other places I was accepted at, like St Matthews University who said there were a bunch of windsor students transferring there bc they thought windsor was closing their doors. I'm just trying to make an honest, informed decision and there are a few things about windsor that make me uncomfortable: no real loans (they ask you to register for a college called midwest to get sallie mae loans wtf?), they have never returned my calls, I still haven't been sent an acceptance letter, they have a bunch of malpractice and hospital fees added which should be part of tuition, when you call the clinical coordinator up to ask what hospitals you are allowed to rotate in they say they are not allowed to disclose unless you are a student. On the other hand they are on WHO ECFMG and have made residents, unsure about fully licensed. Am I seeing a sufficient # of red flags? Does St Kitts have a hx of non-accredited, shady institutions eg. St Theresa's? If anyone has more knowledge let me know--I am assuming on the other hand aua is pretty reputable and def. accredited as it pops up on lisencure lists like in NY.

St. Kitts is associated with something bad.. but i cant remember what. AUA has residents, but its not old enough to have attendings... no idea about windsor.

 

[dragonfly99]

These things don't sound good ilovepath. Be careful.
AUA sounds best of the schools you have listed... did you check to see if California accepts AUA vs. not? You can search by country (on the California medical board web site) to see if it's considered an accredited school in California vs. not. Not that it's necessary unless you ever want to practice in California, but my impression is California sets the bar fairly high, and they go and inspect the schools also (interesting report r.e. SABA and St Matt's on their web site).

I would still worry about you running into licensing issues later in the US due to being withdrawn or dismissed from a US school. The licensing boards can be a pain. If you did transfer to the Caribbean, passed all your boards first try and then did well in residency it might not be much of an issue though...I really don't know. I do know that folks who have any sort of "red flag" in their medical licensure application tend to have their license applications scrutinized a lot harder than other folks. In some states you even have to go for a personal interview, etc.

 

[howelljolly]

AUA is neither approved nor denied by Cali. It is too new of a school for Cali to even consider them for approval.... California wont even think about approving a school that does not have 10 years (if im not wrong) worth of graduating classes. So this state (and any state that follows the California list) will more than likely not give you a license if you go there.

 

[ilovepath]

Thank you all for your insights. In spite of the challenges it may bring me, I am still passionate about medicine; moreso than ever before. I've seen a long hx of ppl in the past succeding--I am very much leaning toward AUA--they are a young but growing program; windsor has only given me a whole lot of red flags. If anyone still wants to put in their comments, please do so; sdn/vmd have been invaluable to researching these programs.

 

[ashah0224]

Neurology, I don't know the exact %. Thank you for your sincere help.
I suppose the most important issue is to call state licensing boards like ny and fl to determine if they allow windsor graduates to be licensed. THe unanimous opinion is aua enjoys a better accrediation, though I need to get the hard facts from the licensing boards. Thank you so much for your sincere help, this is a decision I need to make promptly, and would like to make it as well-informed as possible.

Yeah, find out if NY will actually allow windsor grads. Windsor is supposed to be getting NY after their new building is done - but who knows for sure ... nobody would answer my phonecalls or questions about it. FL already has a windsor grad there. I researched it - but couldnt get in contact with the person.

Ultimately you control how well you do and where you end up. If you work ur butt off, are motivated, and persistent ... you can succeed from practically any school. School just helps make things easier - so essentially you pay for resource.

Thats great to find a windsor grad in Neurology. Has that person been able to give you any advice?

Note: Tuition is about 5k a semester. That does not mean there are not other costs. It is still cheaper than other schools. And according to people whom I have spoken with, living accomodations are there and education is comparative to the big 4.

St. Kitts is associated with something bad.. but i cant remember what. AUA has residents, but its not old enough to have attendings... no idea about windsor.

Is it possible for you to find out again? I'm curious as to what bad thing is associated with St Kitts ...

I havent been able to personally speak with any Attendings who graduated from Windsor, but they are there.

 

[urgentcase]

AUA is a great school. It will soon be a tip tier medical school as soon as it completes its campus. AUA does have NY rotations and NY state approval. Getting a residency out of AUA is possible but difficult, but its not much more difficult than from a top tier carrib school. After all carrib, is a carrib, is a carrib... not much difference. Get yourself a 99 on step 2 and you will pre-match. get in the top 80's and you might pre-match into family medicine. get < 85 and you can kiss your medical carreer good bye. Harsh but true.

As far as the licensing issues, ... who knows.. I'd appreciate if someone would comment on which states are the easiest to get a license in and how they view people that have voluntarily withdrawn from a US school?

 

[dylantanis]

AUA DEFINITELY over Windsor.
Simply because of NY approval, thus NY residency.

However, I would try SGU/Ross/Saba/AUC before considering AUA.
Also, if you're going to consider AUA you might as well well consider MUA,
the other school that has NY approval.

Good luck.

 

[urgentcase]

I know someone who is in the same situation as yourself. In fact the person also completed most of 3rd year and then transferred to AUA. Do not waste time with the big 4, they will most likely count about 3 semesters and make you do a 4th semester on the island. In short you will wind up losing about 1.5 years of your school work. Its not worth it. Go to AUA, they will accept most of your credits, and you will most likely still graduate no more than a year late. Going to the big 4 will cost you an additional 2 years of your life!!!!! As far as residency is concerned, carrib=carrib=carrib, its not the rep that counts but your scores. Rock step 2 and you will get an Family Medicine Residency. That's all you really need. Then you can do botox and ortho injections and rack up just as much cash as any other doc who went to a prestegious american born and bred program. Also, most of the carrib schools focus on the 1st 2 years and make it a pain. Once you are at the end of your 3rd year, finishing whatever they will give you will be a walk in the park... much easier than your american med school experience. This is another reason why you should avoid the big 4. There is no wrong way to skin this cat.... don't look for prestiege. In medicine the most important thing is making it. When you are a practicing MD, your pts won't care where you went to med school. Cheers!!!

 

[DRJJ1]

i know someone who is in the same situation as yourself. In fact the person also completed most of 3rd year and then transferred to aua. Do not waste time with the big 4, they will most likely count about 3 semesters and make you do a 4th semester on the island. In short you will wind up losing about 1.5 years of your school work. Its not worth it. Go to aua, they will accept most of your credits, and you will most likely still graduate no more than a year late. Going to the big 4 will cost you an additional 2 years of your life!!!!! As far as residency is concerned, carrib=carrib=carrib, its not the rep that counts but your scores. Rock step 2 and you will get an family medicine residency. That's all you really need. Then you can do botox and ortho injections and rack up just as much cash as any other doc who went to a prestegious american born and bred program. Also, most of the carrib schools focus on the 1st 2 years and make it a pain. Once you are at the end of your 3rd year, finishing whatever they will give you will be a walk in the park... Much easier than your american med school experience. This is another reason why you should avoid the big 4. There is no wrong way to skin this cat.... Don't look for prestiege. In medicine the most important thing is making it. When you are a practicing md, your pts won't care where you went to med school. Cheers!!!

this guy is on da money excellent

 

[ChiMD27]

It's possible with those schools but there are many states that will outright refuse a license. California and all states using their list (something like 4-8 schools so far)...plus more. I don't really care enough to do the research for you, but it is out there.

Except for the fact that without the big 4, there is only 30-35 states that you can get a license.

This is inaccurate. The only states that will not grant a license to a Windsor grad are Kansas (until 2015 due to their 15-years in existence policy) and California. The states you are referring to utilize California's disapproved schools list; Windsor is not on that list.