I need some advice. Should I do Master's instead? Low GPA and other issues

[LunaCaelum]

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I need some advice. I was planning on applying this year to vet school. But after calculating some of my GPAs I think I should go the Master's route first.

Overall: ~3.16
Science GPA: 2.88 (I'm not sure I calculated this correctly, I was doing it in excel and may have messed it up)
Last 45 GPA: 3.08
GRE: Quant: ~460 Verbal: ~590 Analytical: 5.5 (Definitely retaking this during this summer)

The low GPA is mostly a result of my less-than-stellar chemistry grades. I got C's in both semesters of O-chem; however I was also working ~25 hours a week during those semesters, in addition to taking between 16-18 hours every semester of my undergraduate career. (Rigor points???)

I was thinking about applying to master's programs. I've looked at some like for animal science and a biology one here in town. I would rather go straight to vet school; but I don't really think that is an option here. I want to apply anyway for the hell of it, but money is a huge issue at the moment.

Any advice on what I should do?
Thanks!😕

 

[lalzi22]

I personally have no idea how I would proceed if I were in your position, but I think you will get some great advise from people on this forum, many whom may have been in similar positions, but one thing I would recommend is calling a vet school or two to see if you can have a review of your application with the admissions committees. Some schools (I know Tufts and UPenn specifically, but probably many others) will look at your entire file before you apply and can tell you your strengths and weaknesses and can perhaps lead you (although none of them will tell you directly) in the right direction. Good luck, and def. use this forum as a resource. It is invaluable.

 

[LunaCaelum]

Thanks everyone. I'm actually interested in doing research after vet school, that's why I was thinking a master's program would be good for me anyway.

Also, my experience is basically: tons of small animal, FFA-showing pigs and rabbits (which I also did for 2 years in college), emergency hospital (includes avian/exotics), showing a vet that looks at pretty much everything-avian, exotics, small animal, the occasional farm animal;

 

[TrocarKarin]

It might be worth applying this year, especially if you can boost your GRE scores. Your stats aren't that far off from mine, and I got into 2 US schools.

 

[lunajett]

I'm always surprised at the number of people who seem to look at a master's as an alternate route to vet school. I know many have done it and it may work out fine for them, but I just don't see the logic, and generally think the time and money spent on a master's can be much better spent directly boosting your odds for vet school. Sure, a master's may help you if research is your ultimate goal, but certainly a DVM will open just about any research doors out there. There are also many dual master's/DVM programs out there if you really feel the need for a master's.

But if DVM is really your goal, commit to that wholeheartedly. Yeah, your grades will put you at a disadvantage applying, but people have gotten in with grades like that or worse. Are all your pre-reqs done? If not, do whatever you have to do get A's on whatever you have left to give you whatever little boost. Do whatever you can to boost that GRE by at least 200 points - most schools will tell you a higher GRE can compensate somewhat for a low GPA. If you could get like 1400, that low GPA will not looks so worrisome. And then get as much experience as you can. Not shadowing and FFA shows, but get yourself a fulltime job working with vets. That will help you learn everything you can about the field and build relationships with vets - prove to them you have what it takes, and they can write you great LOR's that will really make a difference. Then volunteer some other places to get more diverse experiences.

So, in short, IF you really want to be a vet, my advice would be to not spend however many tens of thousands of dollars and the next two years on a Master's. Work FT in the field, prove you are committed and that vets you work with will vouch for you, and ACE the GRE. I would maybe even not apply this year - focus on that stuff, take a GRE prep class, take the GRE next spring, and apply in 2011. If you did the master's, you wouldn't be getting into vet school for at least a couple years anyway. So why not spend the time making yourself a better applicant and forget the master's distraction?

 

[BugVet]

First of all I would suggest you try and set up some sort of meeting (via phone/in person/etc) with an admissions counselor at a college of veterinary medicine you would be interested in attending. A little insider's insight is always beneficial! You would be able to discuss your individual situation and hopefully you'll receive some honest feedback. Also, keep in mind that a large amount of animal experience along with a kick-a** admissions essay and some great LORs can outshine a lower GPA.

As for pursuing a Masters degree, I would say go for it IF it is something you are really interested in. It may improve your chances of acceptance into a CVM but it may not. Vet school is intense and often very costly, you don't want to burn yourself out before you even get there! Have you thought about retaking any of your science courses? Improving some of your past grades may also be an option.

Good Luck!

 

[nyanko]

I'm always surprised at the number of people who seem to look at a master's as an alternate route to vet school. I know many have done it and it may work out fine for them, but I just don't see the logic, and generally think the time and money spent on a master's can be much better spent directly boosting your odds for vet school. Sure, a master's may help you if research is your ultimate goal, but certainly a DVM will open just about any research doors out there.

You don't see the logic because you aren't looking at it the right way. I agree in the sense that nobody should do a thesis-based MS solely to improve a vet school application, but if you are interested in a field and really want to get experience with real research and prove that you are committed to it, a MS is a great way to do that. And guess what, if you do well in the coursework in a MS and show that you can handle graduate level research, it does directly boost your odds for vet school. In addition, a DVM itself will not open "just about any" research doors.

But if DVM is really your goal, commit to that wholeheartedly.

You've said this kind of ignorant trash before. It's like you are completely blind to the fact that there are many different paths you can take with a DVM. Committing yourself to a 2 year program that involves upper division science coursework and independent graduate level research prior to starting a DVM does not in any way convey a lack of commitment to getting a DVM.

So why not spend the time making yourself a better applicant and forget the master's distraction?

Look, while I might agree with some of your points in that this person probably needs to get more veterinary experience in a clinical setting and definitely needs to improve that GRE score (particularly the Quant section), there are serious flaws in your logic. It may not be the best thing to do in this case, but to dismiss a graduate degree as a "distraction" and act as if it isn't ever the best option for somebody looking to get into vet school is absolutely, mind blowingly preposterous.

By the way, in the sciences there are easily ways to not have to pay for a graduate degree. I certainly have not spent "tens of thousands of dollars" and in fact am making nearly $2800/month before taxes (plus tuition remission and health insurance) while I'm getting my MS. The least I've made in the course of the degree is $1800/month. Which is still more than I made at a full time job with a veterinarian.

 

[GellaBella]

in fact am making nearly $2800/month before taxes (plus tuition remission and health insurance) while I'm getting my MS. The least I've made in the course of the degree is $1800/month. Which is still more than I made at a full time job with a veterinarian.

Whaaaa?! How come my graduate school only pays me ~$2100/month before taxes (plus tuition remission and health insurance)?! Daaaaamn. I'm getting screwed. And of the schools I interviewed at this one offered me the most money! (UNH PhD program offered an $18000/yr stipend...seriously yuck).

But yeah, I agree with Nyanko. There are so many different paths a veterinarian can take. You don't have to be in a clinic treating peoples pets. You can be in industry, working for the government, in academia, involved with public policy. I think that if people need to bump up their GPA and are truly interested in getting a taste of research then a MS is an excellent way to go. In my mind getting a masters degree in no way shows that you are not dedicated to the field, in fact it shows that you know how valuable research is and that you are open to different aspects of being a veterinarian.

 

[HopefulAg]

Another option is something like an MBA. Pretty easy classes, you can tie your pursuit of it directly into what you want to do with a DVM (well, assuming you want to practice and not research/teach), and it's some what unique. Plus it's still considered upper-level class work.

Admittedly, I wouldn't recommend doing it (I find it boring as hell personally, regardless of it being beneficial) but it's another option to consider. Best part is you don't have to go a year without applying. Oh and they won't pay you to do it.

I'm always surprised at the number of people who seem to look at a master's as an alternate route to vet school.

Actually a ton of people take this as an alternate route to vet school. Was considering a Master's in Immunology before I decided to do an MBA (which is good because I wouldn't have been able to apply this year). It's a very legit path as long as you have some degree of interest in the field you pick to do your Masters in. It's not really fair to your PI to be completely disinterested in their (and your) work just for your own gain.

 

[TrocarKarin]

Another option is something like an MBA. Pretty easy classes, you can tie your pursuit of it directly into what you want to do with a DVM (well, assuming you want to practice and not research/teach), and it's some what unique. Plus it's still considered upper-level class work.

Admittedly, I wouldn't recommend doing it (I find it boring as hell personally, regardless of it being beneficial) but it's another option to consider. Best part is you don't have to go a year without applying. Oh and they won't pay you to do it.

When I did my file review at CSU, I told them that if I didn't get in, I was considering either an MS or an MBA, but was leaning more towards an MBA (since I want to own my own practice at some point, and it seemed more useful.)

They basically told me not to bother with the MBA, as if you're doing a masters to improve your chances, they want to see upper level science coursework, not just upper level coursework. YMMV.

 

[HopefulAg]

They basically told me not to bother with the MBA, as if you're doing a masters to improve your chances, they want to see upper level science coursework, not just upper level coursework. YMMV.

It likely does vary from college to college then. It should be noted I was rejected by Colorado flat out lol.

Iowa, Ohio, and Kansas all commented on my working towards an MBA and Iowa especially liked it. It corresponded with their new MBA/DVM program and entrepreneurial class they're doing for vet students.
Then, on the other hand, I was waitlisted at both Iowa and Ohio, so take it with a grain lol.

 

[nyanko]

Whaaaa?! How come my graduate school only pays me ~$2100/month before taxes (plus tuition remission and health insurance)?! Daaaaamn. I'm getting screwed. And of the schools I interviewed at this one offered me the most money! (UNH PhD program offered an $18000/yr stipend...seriously yuck).

Haha, I'm actually on the second highest pay grade for grad student researchers here at UCD (out of 10 grades) for some reason, so that is about $2400/month. Then I work at the VMTH in the diagnostic micro lab on weekends, which my PI has tried to get me to quit doing multiple times but I enjoy it too much, and it's not really a distraction since it's only 8-10 hours over the weekends and it gets me to campus (and in closer proximity to our lab 😛) every weekend when most others aren't here. So that's the other $400 or so.

edit: if you do a MS at a vet school, there's the added bonus that you can get more "traditional" veterinary experience during it if you play your cards right. In addition to my research, I manage my professor's cat colony which has involved getting to perform, help out with and see a wide variety of veterinary techniques and procedures. I've helped with electroretinograms on cats, seen a lot of ultrasounds, helped document a handful of necropsies at path, euthanized and dissected our own research cats, monitored and induced cats with dystocia, done routine nursing stuff for the cats and a ton of routine handling for exams at different services in the VMTH, all during the course of my MS.

 

[sumstorm]

Just a side note: another reason for pursueing an MS or other degree is to increase earnings potential if one never gets into vet school. No matter how dedicated one is to vet med, it may take 6 or 7 or more tries to get in. not everyone can afford to do that on a vet assistants income. I would encourage folks to pursue Master's degrees that are useful/interesting to them, but it can set people up for a sucessful alternative if the acceptance never materializes.

 

[that redhead]

My GPA is lower than yours. I have a lot of other factors that I'm hoping will help me out, and the successful applicants thread is a good place to look to cheer yourself up. I'm applying this cycle, but I'm open to the strong possibility that I will have to reapply next year. I've opted to take an extra year of undergrad (which is depressing right about now, with all of my friends graduating 🙁) to include upper level science courses as well as a full course schedule. I will also continue with my animal/vet experiences.

I think it's at least worth applying to a few schools. In regards to going for a Masters, its something I have (at least temporarily) decided against because I'm really not into the idea of research or writing a thesis/etc (although I'm sure there are good programs out there that are non-thesis based). From what I've gathered from various people getting their Masters or who have already gotten their Masters, it isn't something to be taken lightly! If you heart isn't in it, you may be pretty miserable trying to slog through it just for the sake of your application. On the other hand, as mentioned above, if there is an area you are really into and don't mind research, go for it!

 

[lunajett]

You've said this kind of ignorant trash before. It's like you are completely blind to the fact that there are many different paths you can take with a DVM. Committing yourself to a 2 year program that involves upper division science coursework and independent graduate level research prior to starting a DVM does not in any way convey a lack of commitment to getting a DVM.

😕 Are you just having a really bad day or do we have some history I'm unaware of? If you think the idea of committing to becoming a DVM wholeheartedly is "ignorant trash," well, good luck to you. I understand you did an MS and maybe that had a lot to do with you getting accepted, and if so, awesome. Whatever works. I didn't mean to imply that it would "hurt" the OP's chances and that NObody should do an MS if they ultimately want to be a DVM. My point, which maybe I didn't make clear enough or maybe you missed because you got all butthurt about any perceived slight of an MS, was simply that there might be *better* ways to improve her odds, to get more bang for her buck. Spending her time focusing on upping the GRE and increasing her experience might make more of a difference in an adcomm's calculus, and probably at much less cost and time committment than an MS. She didn't seem all that committed to an MS, it was more an avenue to get to the DVM, so it would seem to me to make more sense in her case (NOT your's, it wasn't about you) to work on the things that are expected by the adcomms and actually have boxes to fill out on the VMCAS.

ABSOLUTELY, as you say, "there are many different paths you can take with a DVM." If you want to start comparing paths and handing out points for how "different", I think I would have most of you beat - even though my hair is not dyed pink 😛. Believe me, I am ALL about alternative paths, that's how I got in, and I thank dog the adcomms will look outside the box these days. Sorry if my comments offended you, but I don't think I've said anything that was so off base as to start hurling insults.

 

[nyanko]

😕 Are you just having a really bad day or do we have some history I'm unaware of? If you think the idea of committing to becoming a DVM wholeheartedly is "ignorant trash," well, good luck to you.

You posted similarly in the UC Davis thread. And you know that's not what I'm referring to when I say it's ignorant. I am referring to the idea that a graduate degree automatically equals not being sincere or committed to veterinary medicine. Like this (from page 9 of the UCD 2014 thread, in response to someone asking whether applying to a graduate program hurt their chances for the DVM program):

But look at it from the adcoms perspective - they want students who are 100% committed to vetmed. If there are 900 other equally qualified candidates who are going all in to pursue vet school, why should they consider someone who, from their perspective at least, might not be all that committed?

She didn't seem all that committed to an MS, it was more an avenue to get to the DVM, so it would seem to me to make more sense in her case (NOT your's, it wasn't about you) to work on the things that are expected by the adcomms and actually have boxes to fill out on the VMCAS.

I realize it isn't about me, and I even posted as such. But what you are posting reads as if it is never a viable option. Your wording is that you understand it's worked for some people but you don't see the logic. Well, the logic is that for some people it is the best way to do it. And that isn't what you said there. An impartial person who reads your post would likely see it the same way.

ABSOLUTELY, as you say, "there are many different paths you can take with a DVM." If you want to start comparing paths and handing out points for how "different", I think I would have most of you beat - even though my hair is not dyed pink 😛. Believe me, I am ALL about alternative paths, that's how I got in, and I thank dog the adcomms will look outside the box these days.

I'm talking about paths to take post-DVM, not pre. If someone is pretty sure that they're interested in research post-DVM, doesn't it make sense to try to get experience doing intensive grad level research pre-DVM?

Sorry if my comments offended you, but I don't think I've said anything that was so off base as to start hurling insults.

It's not about personal offense. And I'm not personally insulting you, just a specific idea that you put forth more than once on this forum that is objectively wrong.

 

[crittergal]

If I was in your shoes- oh wait, I WAS in your shoes 'bout this time last year 🙄 You have my deepest sympathy.

Anyhoo, you say your chem grades are C's? You've got room to improve and prove that you do have the capacity to understand the chemistry you'll need for your vet school physio classes, etc. You could also take additional upper level Bio classes to boost your cGPA, sGPA, and last 45.

Many schools don't calculate your masters level grades into your GPA calcuations. That could seriously hurt your chances. Schools will look at your grad school experience, research, etc. However, much of this admissions process is a numbers game (and dart boards and voodoo). If you don't make the numbers cut, then they never bother to evaluate the remaining just-so-happens-to-be-awesome portion of application package. Although maybe that was just my app getting the file 13 at the numbers game stage...

Oh- and before anyone gets up in arms because they think I implied "if you don't get A's in chemistry you'll not make it in vet school", that is sooo not what I meant. Look for the bigger message here folks 😉

 

[nyanko]

I honestly think if we're talking about the numbers game, the only thing this person can probably really improve on is that last 45 hours and the GRE. Most schools are pretty crap about replacing prereq grades and so I doubt the cumulative or science GPAs are going to budge much.

Anecdotally, my cumulative and prereq GPAs are essentially the same as yours, OP. My last 45 (including my distraction of a MS 😉) was in the 3.7-3.8 range, and my GRE was >1400. So if we're talking numbers that's how you need to improve. However, I had the same numbers on my first application (pre-distraction) with the last 45 more in the 3.4 range and passed the numbers portion and was rejected after interview largely due to lack of depth of experience in my field of interest.

 

[crittergal]

You're right about the difficulty to get cGPA and sGPA to increase significantly, especially if you have tons of hours in either category. Last 45 and GRE are completely do-able though.

OP- have you considered the schools that have grade forgiveness programs? Do you have older poorly graded coursework? Maybe you could benefit from something of that nature. Often they will overlook courses older than X yrs, depending on the school. Just a thought and it may not even apply to your case.

You may have mentioned experience and I overlooked it. Do you have adequate to awesome experience that will help you shine in another area?

 

[lunajett]

Nyanko, seriously?? You went and dug up a similar quote of mine from a different thread from, what, like 6 months ago? Do you not have anything better to do than track my references to MS programs on the rare occasions I even post here?

Listen, in the interests of moving along like mature adults and not making any more of a stupid distraction in this thread, let me apologize for my ignorant comments on MS programs. Clearly, you are the authority on the subject and I will make every effort to avoid commenting on the same in the future, OK? Now take a friggin' pill.

Seriously, if this is the drama you bring to the table, it's going to be a long four years for you and your classmates.

 

[nyanko]

Nyanko, seriously?? You went and dug up a similar quote of mine from a different thread from, what, like 6 months ago? Do you not have anything better to do than track my references to MS programs on the rare occasions I even post here?

Listen, in the interests of moving along like mature adults and not making any more of a stupid distraction in this thread, let me apologize for my ignorant comments on MS programs. Clearly, you are the authority on the subject and I will make every effort to avoid commenting on the same in the future, OK? Now take a friggin' pill.

Seriously, if this is the drama you bring to the table, it's going to be a long four years for you and your classmates.

Actually, I just remembered that something along the same vein had been posted before, because it was before my interview (3 months ago) and like most of us here, was not exactly thinking 100% rationally at that time and started to wonder if anyone on the adcom would actually feel like that before I caught myself. And I was pretty sure that it was you who posted it, so I just looked back on the early pages of the thread and it was there. Not really much trouble when I already remembered it happened in the first place.

But I do appreciate your resorting to actual personal attacks though. 🙂

 

[crittergal]

*looks around confused* Am I in the pre-allo forum? Kinda feels like it in here

 

[HopefulAg]

But at least it's active for a bit!

 

[StartingoverVet]

But at least it's active for a bit!

I agree. Been so boring around here lately I have been forced to fall back on studying for my classes.

 

[animals2x2]

TrocarKarin, just curious, what schools did you get into and which one did you accept?

 

[nyanko]

edit bc even i don't care. 😉

 

[twelvetigers]

Trocar got into Kansas and Western. She chose Western. 🙂

 

[TrocarKarin]

Trocar got into Kansas and Western. She chose Western. 🙂

TT, did you have to look that up, or are you such a goddess of SDN that you knew off the top of your head?

Its worth taking a look through the Successful Applicant Stats thread, to see what people got in with different stats.

 

[twelvetigers]

Goddess. Definitely.