I swear if residency interviews are virtual this year

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sanfran256 said:
Oh no, sorry new M4s!!
Traveling for interviews was fun but at least you guys will save a lot of money! Regardless I'm sure things will work out
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Dude I would pay $5000 in a heartbeat to avoid being unhappy for the next 3-7 years. Without visiting a single city or meeting a single resident in person, odds of a bad fit just went up astronomically.
 
Scrubs101 said:
word in the ortho reddit sheet is the aamc will release guidelines for auditions sometime in the next week and AAOS plans to follow their rec, obviously just words in an anon excel sheet at this point but sounds reasonable to me
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Any notion on what these guidelines are going to say??[emoji28]


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Scrubs101 said:
word in the ortho reddit sheet is the aamc will release guidelines for auditions sometime in the next week and AAOS plans to follow their rec, obviously just words in an anon excel sheet at this point but sounds reasonable to me
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Based on all the specialty guidelines that already came out, its 100% going to be an embargo for students with home departments, with an exception to do one local audition if you lack a home department.
 
RamsFan&FutureDO said:
Any notion on what these guidelines are going to say??[emoji28]


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no idea but my guess is similar to efle's above^^, there's some speculation in the sheet but it seems to be mostly just opinions passed down from attendings
 
efle said:
Dude I would pay $5000 in a heartbeat to avoid being unhappy for the next 3-7 years. Without visiting a single city or meeting a single resident in person, odds of a bad fit just went up astronomically.
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Yeah, i definitely would prefer in person interviews for sure, even with the cost.
If they are well done, hopefully you guys can get a decent sense of the program, but this will vary inevitably.

At the beginning of this pandemic I thought M4s had it the worst, but boy was I wrong...
 
sanfran256 said:
Yeah, i definitely would prefer in person interviews for sure, even with the cost.
If they are well done, hopefully you guys can get a decent sense of the program, but this will vary inevitably.

At the beginning of this pandemic I thought M4s had it the worst, but boy was I wrong...
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For some people like me, virtual interviews won't make any difference (edit: will make a difference but not to the extent that i would have been screwed if not for physical interviews). Would be happy I am saving money.

But I get there are people who care about "fit" so hope things work out in your favor.

For IM, just realize that all the well known academic programs are pretty good and have been around for decades. The chances of you getting stuck in a malignant reputable academic program are close to non-existent in my opinion.
 
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throwaway1000000 said:
For some people like me, virtual interviews won't make any difference. Would be happy I am saving money.

But I get there are people who care about "fit" so hope things work out in your favor.

For IM, just realize that all the well known academic programs are pretty good and have been around for decades. The chances of you getting stuck in a malignant reputable academic program are close to non-existent in my opinion.
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“Fit” aside I could see big programs in big cities being pretty easy to get the low down on regarding area, crime, food, social scene, hospital resources, etc. But I feel like itll be harder to get a good idea for the smaller cities/programs, which i believe are the vast majority of programs (? Legit just guessing here idk for sure)
 
throwaway1000000 said:
For some people like me, virtual interviews won't make any difference. Would be happy I am saving money.

But I get there are people who care about "fit" so hope things work out in your favor.

For IM, just realize that all the well known academic programs are pretty good and have been around for decades. The chances of you getting stuck in a malignant reputable academic program are close to non-existent in my opinion.
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This might be true, but if you look at the Interview Impressions from this past cycle's IM reddit spreadsheet there were more than a few people who had disappointing/underwhelming/negative experiences at the well known academic programs, even places like UCLA, Vandy, JHU, etc, for a variety of reasons. Different things for different people rubbed them the wrong way based on their personal preferences. Maybe these don't become things that would lead to a negative experience overall as a resident there, but still important to think about.
 
Scrubs101 said:
“Fit” aside I could see big programs in big cities being pretty easy to get the low down on regarding area, crime, food, social scene, hospital resources, etc. But I feel like itll be harder to get a good idea for the smaller cities/programs, which i believe are the vast majority of programs (? Legit just guessing here idk for sure)
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Yeah that is why i said it will be different for different people.
I honestly went to med school in what is considered a ****ty city, think cleveland, st. louis, detroit. But even in those cities, they are areas that are decent and fine for me. So, the city was pretty low in my things that i cared about. i was really looking for another cheap city where i can save a lot of money.
also, maybe this was just me, but i just went to the city the night before for the dinner. didn't really explore anything. i think google will teach you much more about the city than the 1 night you spend there. but that is just me.
 
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sharkbyte said:
This might be true, but if you look at the Interview Impressions from this past cycle's IM reddit spreadsheet there were more than a few people who had disappointing/underwhelming/negative experiences at the well known academic programs, even places like UCLA, Vandy, JHU, etc, for a variety of reasons. Different things for different people rubbed them the wrong way based on their personal preferences. Maybe these don't become things that would lead to a negative experience overall as a resident there, but still important to think about.
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i don't disagree. but like you said, maybe you didn't like UCLA during your interview but it's been around for decades with a solid reputation with many people that love it.
the chance that you match at UCLA and your life will be miserable is pretty low. you will adjust pretty quickly.
if you are interviewing at not well-known community programs, i agree with you that you might be stuck at a malignant program without going and checking it out in person.
i am not saying there is no worth in physical interviews, but just realize you are not as screwed as you think you might be. for academic IM programs.
 
Well our deans just dropped the bomb on us, we are officially resuming direct patient care rotations in 2 weeks. I'm shocked tbh since my school is right in the middle of the northeast hot zones that currently span from DC through philly and NYC all the way up to Boston.

So maybe we will also be pleasantly surprised by resumption of normal interviews, I no longer have any faith in my gauge of anything COVID related.
 
efle said:
I no longer have any faith in my gauge of anything COVID related.
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Same bro....same. Idk what to think anymore, family/friends always ask “when do you think we’ll go back” and the only answer im confident anymore is “i dont know”.

one of our base hospitals has said theyll be taking base students back starting mid may, and our school has told us they are letting the base hospitals decide individually when students can go back. With 25ish base hospitals my entire class is going to be a mixed bag of back to rotations and doing online rotations

edit: this decision has since been changed and my whole school is off til end of june now, but we will still be going back pending individual base hospitals decisions
 
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Scrubs101 said:
Same bro....same. Idk what to think anymore, family/friends always ask “when do you think we’ll go back” and the only answer im confident anymore is “i dont know”.

one of our base hospitals has said theyll be taking base students back starting mid may, and our school has told us they are letting the base hospitals decide individually when students can go back. With 25ish base hospitals my entire class is going to be a mixed bag of back to rotations and doing online rotations
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I just can't reconcile this behavior with all the national orgs. The same day that AAMC recommends no residency interviews, my admin announces we're going back on the floors in two weeks, in a hotspot in the peak of first wave?

Like, are we dangerous vectors or are we not? So much cognitive dissonance
 
efle said:
I just can't reconcile this behavior with all the national orgs. The same day that AAMC recommends no residency interviews, my admin announces we're going back on the floors in two weeks, in a hotspot in the peak of first wave?

Like, are we dangerous vectors or are we not? So much cognitive dissonance
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I'm not in a particularly hard hit area, but we have a handful of MS4s currently on Sub-Is, with many more to start in less than two weeks. And our home institution ban on applying to away rotations was in place for around a month and then lifted like a week before the VSAS shutdown began. The entire situation has been confusing, to say the least.
 
Boy this is going to be a real ****show if programs start making independent decisions that differ from one another. How can we even pretend the process is fair if only some students have access to surgical aways, sub-Is, or ED rotations for letters? If only some students get in-person interviews while others get Zoom? If some people are stuck doing Pass/Fail online modules while others can go back to Honoring real rotations?

I don't envy PDs trying to keep a fair and unbiased approach to their stack of apps this year. Or should I say mountain of apps, since there are no caps.
 
...
efle said:
Boy this is going to be a real ****show if programs start making independent decisions that differ from one another. How can we even pretend the process is fair if only some students have access to surgical aways, sub-Is, or ED rotations for letters? If only some students get in-person interviews while others get Zoom? If some people are stuck doing Pass/Fail online modules while others can go back to Honoring real rotations?

I don't envy PDs trying to keep a fair and unbiased approach to their stack of apps this year. Or should I say mountain of apps, since there are no caps.
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Hopefully there are caps coming. There were tangible caps on how many interviews a person could feasibly attend and the number of applications were already out of hand. With virtual interviews, there's nothing to keep competitive students from attending an obscene number of interviews.
 
holdthemayo said:
...


Hopefully there are caps coming. There were tangible caps on how many interviews a person could feasibly attend and the number of applications were already out of hand. With virtual interviews, there's nothing to keep competitive students from attending an obscene number of interviews.
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I know of one person who received >40 interview invitations last year. I shudder to think what a cycle would look like where superstars could actually attend all their interviews.

This data is once again extremely relevant, and very scary for anyone not in the best 10-20% of apps...
 
holdthemayo said:
...


Hopefully there are caps coming. There were tangible caps on how many interviews a person could feasibly attend and the number of applications were already out of hand. With virtual interviews, there's nothing to keep competitive students from attending an obscene number of interviews.
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Peds recommended a cap of 15-16. Wonder if other specialties will follow suit.

This is shaping up to be a very interesting application cycle, and I am not looking forward to being a test subject. Lol.
 
efle said:
Boy this is going to be a real ****show if programs start making independent decisions that differ from one another. How can we even pretend the process is fair if only some students have access to surgical aways, sub-Is, or ED rotations for letters? If only some students get in-person interviews while others get Zoom? If some people are stuck doing Pass/Fail online modules while others can go back to Honoring real rotations?

I don't envy PDs trying to keep a fair and unbiased approach to their stack of apps this year. Or should I say mountain of apps, since there are no caps.
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Will they even bother trying to be fair and unbiased...
 
MC_Infarction said:
Peds recommended a cap of 15-16. Wonder if other specialties will follow suit.

This is shaping up to be a very interesting application cycle, and I am not looking forward to being a test subject. Lol.
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the cap was a recommendation. There is no enforcement mechanism. There is no way people are going to stop applying to programs.
 
NotAProgDirector said:
The AAMC statement is interesting, but programs are not beholden to the AAMC. I think most programs will be prepping for virtual interviews, and will make final decisions in the fall.
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What are your thoughts on how virtual interviews will affect the amount of interviews people can/will choose to attend? Do you think a cap on applications is reasonable?
 
I think they should just rip the bandaid off implement the virtual interviews, limit applications, and limit CS to FMG IMGs.
A lot of this posturing , and fracturing of the process by specialty is not making things easier for applicants or PDs i imagine.
 
In my ideal interview year, I would interview with 20 programs, go to 4 in-person second looks, send one LOI. It would save thousands, still let me get a good feel for my top programs and the second looks would help represent interest.
 
efle said:
Dude I would pay $5000 in a heartbeat to avoid being unhappy for the next 3-7 years. Without visiting a single city or meeting a single resident in person, odds of a bad fit just went up astronomically.
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It won't be as bad as you think. You probably already have a decent idea of where you want to be geographically and if you want to be a big city or not and most people also already know how heavily they weight prestige / academics. That will narrow down programs pretty quickly. That in addition to a well done virtual social with residents will give you enough to make a good decision. Plus if you're doing rads you won't have any idea about the 3 most important classes in your program anyway (PGY1 is off doing prelim year, your class is a crapshoot and you probably would only meet a couple of them on the trail in a normal year, and the class below you obviously you won't meet for another couple years).
 
bobjonesbob said:
It won't be as bad as you think. You probably already have a decent idea of where you want to be geographically and if you want to be a big city or not and most people also already know how heavily they weight prestige / academics. That will narrow down programs pretty quickly. That in addition to a well done virtual social with residents will give you enough to make a good decision. Plus if you're doing rads you won't have any idea about the 3 most important classes in your program anyway (PGY1 is off doing prelim year, your class is a crapshoot and you probably would only meet a couple of them on the trail in a normal year, and the class below you obviously you won't meet for another couple years).
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Yeah, narrowing down to a few dozen programs to apply to will be easy. But I never would have agreed to live in cities like St Louis and Baltimore without visiting first, their reputations precede them for all the wrong reasons.

I still have many questions though - How small really is Rochester MN? Is it a bad part of Cleveland that the Clinic is in? How Southern does the research triangle feel? You get the idea.

And this is coming from someone who has already ripped off the bandaid twice with the cities I've moved to. Someone who has spent their entire life thus far in just CA or New England or New York is going to really be taking a leap of faith if they don't have a spot secured near home.
 
efle said:
Boy this is going to be a real ****show if programs start making independent decisions that differ from one another. How can we even pretend the process is fair if only some students have access to surgical aways, sub-Is, or ED rotations for letters? If only some students get in-person interviews while others get Zoom? If some people are stuck doing Pass/Fail online modules while others can go back to Honoring real rotations?
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libertyyne said:
A lot of this posturing , and fracturing of the process by specialty is not making things easier for applicants or PDs i imagine.
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I have lost all faith in the powers that be and fully expect this fall to be a fractured **** show at the expense of applicants as you two highlight. We can adjust to changes in the process if they are uniform, but if the expectations are wildly different from program to program, specialty to specialty, then we are completely hosed.

The big problem is that there is no centralized decision being made. The AAMC has no real authority on their own. Every leadership organization (ACGME, AAMC, AOA, NBME, NBOME, specialty colleges, etc) needs to get together in one big group, like this supposed Visiting Student Coalition thing with VSAS, and make an overarching decision that everyone will be expected to follow.

It's absolutely the worst possible scenario for all of us. Obviously some will be affected more than others but every single student, from @efle at JHU to me at my DO school, will be negatively impacted in some way.

I've been getting pretty depressed about all of of this lately. It just sucks.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
I have lost all faith in the powers that be and fully expect this fall to be a fractured **** show at the expense of applicants as you two highlight. We can adjust to changes in the process if they are uniform, but if the expectations are wildly different from program to program, specialty to specialty, then we are completely hosed.

The big problem is that there is no centralized decision being made. The AAMC has no real authority on their own. Every leadership organization (ACGME, AAMC, AOA, NBME, NBOME, specialty colleges, etc) needs to get together in one big group, like this supposed Visiting Student Coalition thing with VSAS, and make an overarching decision that everyone will be expected to follow.

It's absolutely the worst possible scenario for all of us. Obviously some will be affected more than others but every single student, from @efle at JHU to me at my DO school, will be negatively impacted in some way.

I've been getting pretty depressed about all of of this lately. It just sucks.
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The normal match is already a fractured process with some specialties expecting Step 2CK/CS, some expecting 4 away rotations, some expecting no away rotations, some matching early, some having SLOEs, etc. I don’t think there’s any way to make even a half-fair decision for all specialties without significantly disadvantaging certain applicants beyond the point of repair. It’s one thing for JHU applicants to get 15 interview invites instead of 20, but I can see many DO applicants being completely screwed applying to EM with no away rotations. Similarly, the lack of in-person interviews would be way worse for certain specialties like neurosurgery or vascular surgery, for example, where they are selecting a location for the next 5-7 years and are often the sole person of the team, as opposed to IM. I wouldn’t be opposed to having smaller specialties like NSG do in-person interviews even though I myself likely won’t for my specialty.
 
ace_inhibitor111 said:
The normal match is already a fractured process with some specialties expecting Step 2CK/CS, some expecting 4 away rotations, some expecting no away rotations, some matching early, some having SLOEs, etc. I don’t think there’s any way to make even a half-fair decision for all specialties without significantly disadvantaging certain applicants beyond the point of repair.
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Yes but things were fairly uniform within the specialties. Currently there is a real chance that within the same specialty the expectations will be wildly different from program to program. I.e certain programs still expecting you to audition, while others punishing those that did auditions.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
I have lost all faith in the powers that be and fully expect this fall to be a fractured **** show at the expense of applicants as you two highlight. We can adjust to changes in the process if they are uniform, but if the expectations are wildly different from program to program, specialty to specialty, then we are completely hosed.

The big problem is that there is no centralized decision being made. The AAMC has no real authority on their own. Every leadership organization (ACGME, AAMC, AOA, NBME, NBOME, specialty colleges, etc) needs to get together in one big group, like this supposed Visiting Student Coalition thing with VSAS, and make an overarching decision that everyone will be expected to follow.

It's absolutely the worst possible scenario for all of us. Obviously some will be affected more than others but every single student, from @efle at JHU to me at my DO school, will be negatively impacted in some way.

I've been getting pretty depressed about all of of this lately. It just sucks.
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It's discomfiting that each organization is coming out with its own recommendations and at different times. I agree that it doesn't portend well for the actual execution of everything where the rubber meets the road. It's impossible to know what things will look like for interview season, but the decisions about interview season need to be made soon.

ace_inhibitor111 said:
The normal match is already a fractured process with some specialties expecting Step 2CK/CS, some expecting 4 away rotations, some expecting no away rotations, some matching early, some having SLOEs, etc. I don’t think there’s any way to make even a half-fair decision for all specialties without significantly disadvantaging certain applicants beyond the point of repair. It’s one thing for JHU applicants to get 15 interview invites instead of 20, but I can see many DO applicants being completely screwed applying to EM with no away rotations. Similarly, the lack of in-person interviews would be way worse for certain specialties like neurosurgery or vascular surgery, for example, where they are selecting a location for the next 5-7 years and are often the sole person of the team, as opposed to IM. I wouldn’t be opposed to having smaller specialties like NSG do in-person interviews even though I myself likely won’t for my specialty.
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But I also agree with this notion that the different players have irreconcilable interests and handing down a single solution for every specialty, program, and applicant is going to cause a lot of damage.

I see this situation as a variant on the trolley problem. The status quo, the normal application process, produces winners and losers as is. Do nothing and some people will still get hurt. Any dramatic change will alter the winners and losers, which is a tough pill for the new losers to swallow, but I think it's clear that it needs to be done. A national policy making exceptions for certain small specialties is not going to go over well—I think it's going to be an all-virtual interview year.
 
efle said:
I just can't reconcile this behavior with all the national orgs. The same day that AAMC recommends no residency interviews, my admin announces we're going back on the floors in two weeks, in a hotspot in the peak of first wave?

Like, are we dangerous vectors or are we not? So much cognitive dissonance
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No offense, but i don't see what's so hard to comprehend about this. We are vectors, so we should avoid unnecessary risk. Interviews are an unnecessary risk because video chat interviews are an acceptable, though far from perfect, alternative. Being at home and doing flashcards is not an acceptable alternative to completing in-person rotations, so we have to take a calculated risk
 
efle said:
I just can't reconcile this behavior with all the national orgs. The same day that AAMC recommends no residency interviews, my admin announces we're going back on the floors in two weeks, in a hotspot in the peak of first wave?

Like, are we dangerous vectors or are we not? So much cognitive dissonance
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Well I do think there is a big difference between resuming necessary schooling vs unnecessary interviews.

We all have to assess risks and what is necessary vs unnecessary. This virus is here to stay with no good vaccine or treatment for the foreseeable future. It’s not realistic to continue medical (nursing, PA, etc) schooling all online for the next 3 years. It is realistic to decide that interview travel isn’t necessary for the next cycle.

And as far as the decision being made now, it’s better to be prepared than not. I also don’t think it’d be fair to start out with in person interviews and then switch to virtual or vice versa. People would be even more outraged. As of what we know right now it’s likely a good idea to not plan to travel for the rest of the year.
 
Smh. This whole situation is just BB. If you know what I mean
 
RamsFan&FutureDO said:
The AAMC just removed that article from their website completely. Methinks they got some serious blowback


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these People are supposed to have been working on this for the last 3 weeks with people from all over medicine and they can’t figure out what they are doing. Literally the best and brightest and back to square one.
 
You shall know the Truth said:
these People are supposed to have been working on this for the last 3 weeks with people from all over medicine and they can’t figure out what they are doing. Literally the best and brightest and back to square one.
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The best and brightest are busy actually contributing to medicine and don't join any of these organizations lol.
 
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