I thought getting in was the hard part

[TwoHighways]

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Gross anatomy has been more soul crushing than MCAT prep. Seriously, what’s the point memorizing such a huge volume of **** in such a small timeframe that we’ll forget as soon as the block is over? I get that we need to know the body, but every intricate tendon, ligament, artery, nerve in the hand/fingers? Hard to stay positive when you don’t see the point and suck at memorizing large volumes of information you see little utility in learning. It’s mindless. There’s nothing conceptual other than clinical correlates. I could easily refer to an atlas for anatomy that is unrelated to whatever field I end up specializing in.

 

[deleted480308]

Gross anatomy has been more soul crushing than MCAT prep.

getting in is the more uncertain part, getting out is definitely harder

 

[CliveStaples]

You'll probably make it. Remember, somebody's life will depend on it.

 

[stickgirl390]

Me, watching in third year:

oh, it gets worse.

 

[slowthai]

You'll probably make it. Remember, somebody's life will depend on it.

If somebody's life depends on my knowledge of anatomy, we are truly facked

 

[deleted987519]

I’ve been overwhelmed too, just keep reminding myself I don’t need an A like in undergrad 🙂

 

[CliveStaples]

If somebody's life depends on my knowledge of anatomy, we are truly facked

Reminds me of the time an intern errantly dilated the carotid artery during an IJ CVC placement my own intern year. Apparently the kid held pressure for an hour waiting for vascular to arrive and take over.

 

[Yorick]

Biochem was the worst imo, anatomy can at least come in handy but I hated needing to memorize every stupid little cofactor, nadh, kinases, blah blah blah

 

[TwoHighways]

Biochem was the worst imo, anatomy can at least come in handy but I hated needing to memorize every stupid little cofactor, nadh, kinases, blah blah blah

Metabolism is far more interesting to me, if only because our mitochondrial functioning is at the heart of aging/cellular degeneration.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Lol at least anatomy could supposedly have value to the majority of your class at some level.

Just wait until you’re answering questions about chromosome numbers, pharyngeal arches, and the ways different bacteria develop resistance to different antibiotics.

Anyway, HbC lysine, A Fat Santa Claus, Ataxic GAAit!

#itonlygetsworse

 

[IMGASMD]

Reminds me of the time an intern errantly dilated the carotid artery during an IJ CVC placement my own intern year. Apparently the kid held pressure for an hour waiting for vascular to arrive and take over.

My icu attending just had me hold pressure, for my senior’s fucck up. Watched a lot of day time TV that day. But this was in the era of only 2 ultrasounds for the whole house. ie she didn’t use one. It shouldn’t happen much anymore.

 

[Kardio]

Gross anatomy has been more soul crushing than MCAT prep. Seriously, what’s the point memorizing such a huge volume of **** in such a small timeframe that we’ll forget as soon as the block is over? I get that we need to know the body, but every intricate tendon, ligament, artery, nerve in the hand/fingers? Hard to stay positive when you don’t see the point and suck at memorizing large volumes of information you see little utility in learning. It’s mindless. There’s nothing conceptual other than clinical correlates. I could easily refer to an atlas for anatomy that is unrelated to whatever field I end up specializing in.

As much as I (truly) want to join in the complaining, I can easily imagine how a good foundation in anatomy will be beneficial in the future for basically all fields.

 

[Captain_Falcon]

For all muscles simply know innervation plus action (origins and insertions are so low yield it's not worth your time if you feel behind already)

There are a lot of mnemonics for vessels and nerves too. Download Anking deck and just search all arteries and nerves and you will be a step ahead of many

 

[iqe2010]

Our first anatomy test is in less than a week and I don’t feel prepared at all even though all I do is study.

I have a professor that will spend 15 minutes explaining a single PowerPoint slide and will say “now do you need to know this for the test, absolutely not but I thought it was interesting.”

 

[Captain_Falcon]

Our first anatomy test is in less than a week and I don’t feel prepared at all even though all I do is study.

I have a professor that will spend 15 minutes explaining a single PowerPoint slide and will say “now do you need to know this for the test, absolutely not but I thought it was interesting.”

If your school records lectures theres no reason to show up in person. You couldve saved time at 1.5 speed AND found out from a classmate (that says they learn best going to lecture) that the professor spent 15min on nonsense. That 50min lecture just became 35min/1.5

 

[IMG69]

Haha wait for pharm and micro, was it CMV, EBV, HIV or A1c and pip/taz go brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

Anatomy is what it is; at least you don't have to think about it really.

 

[Tenk]

Soooo you decided on a career that specializes in understanding the human body and you’re upset that you have to learn everything about that body. Maybe medicine is the wrong field for you cause anatomy is generally one of the more enjoyable subjects. Just wait until you learn the 300+ diseases you will never see once in your career.

 

[spartan25]

Soooo you decided on a career that specializes in understanding the human body and you’re upset that you have to learn everything about that body. Maybe medicine is the wrong field for you cause anatomy is generally one of the more enjoyable subjects. Just wait until you learn the 300+ diseases you will never see once in your career.

Oh give me a break. Gross anatomy sucks. It’s asinine to say that you should pick a different career if you don’t like memorizing muscle origins and insertions

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Oh give me a break. Gross anatomy sucks. It’s asinine to say that you should pick a different career if you don’t like memorizing muscle origins and insertions

No one cares if you don't like it. That's not unusual.

But soul crushing and pointless? That's not a particularly good sign.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

If your school records lectures theres no reason to show up in person. You couldve saved time at 1.5 speed AND found out from a classmate (that says they learn best going to lecture) that the professor spent 15min on nonsense. That 50min lecture just became 35min/1.5

Or just do what I do and don’t watch school lectures at all.

 

[wanderingorion]

Learn it all the first time, then refine based on use.

 

[operaman]

It always amazes me how much we tell premeds about the rigors of medical education yet some still seem genuinely surprised by it. My guess is we’re all a bunch who have spent years hearing that the next level of school was harder only to find it pretty similar to the last one. Until Med school that is.

Anatomy is definitely a rite of passage and must be doubly difficult with all the covid restrictions in place. It’s also a subject that you actually use more than you realize, especially in procedural fields. I also find that I’m still learning more about anatomy 10 years after I took it the first time. Believe it or not the M1 gross anatomy is grossly oversimplified and doesn’t cover a lot of things!

 

[jurassicpark]

Gross anatomy has been more soul crushing than MCAT prep. Seriously, what’s the point memorizing such a huge volume of **** in such a small timeframe that we’ll forget as soon as the block is over? I get that we need to know the body, but every intricate tendon, ligament, artery, nerve in the hand/fingers? Hard to stay positive when you don’t see the point and suck at memorizing large volumes of information you see little utility in learning. It’s mindless. There’s nothing conceptual other than clinical correlates. I could easily refer to an atlas for anatomy that is unrelated to whatever field I end up specializing in.

Like Operaman just said, Anatomy is like a rite of passage into medical school, and believe it or not it, may be one of your easiest. It is just rote bulk memorization but you can make sense of it, follow tendons/vessels/etc. Create cutesy or horrible inappropriate mnemonics. It serves as a rite of passage and introductory course because even for a lot of those high achievers in college, the sheer bulk of information you have to learn in a relatively short period of time can seem enormous, and lays the foundation for everything else you'll learn. The amount of material you will learn later on will just go up exponentially and not nearly as fun.

And outside of a few fields that will never deal with the human anatomy again, you still have to have a good understanding of anatomy. As my role as an internist/hospitalist when something goes wrong I don't necessarily have to remember the names of every vessel/tendon, but I am familiar with the geography of what I am looking it to understand the process unfolding in front me, create a plan of attack and be able to intelligently converse about it with say a surgical consultant.

 

[TwoHighways]

It’s the volume in the condensed timeframe. It’s not conductive to forming any sort of appreciation for the wonders of the body and anatomical differences from one person to the next. I would rather spend an additional year learning the basic sciences than to be force fed all of the content they try to shove into two years.

 

[FutureInternist]

If somebody's life depends on my knowledge of anatomy, we are truly facked

Our anatomy professor used to joke about keeping a list of students from whom he would never get surgery from.

Proud to say, I was near the top of that one 😀

Anatomy is a weed out course, for no reason.

Once you’re in, they should be doing everything to help you excel.

Basic anatomy is fine but WTF, does anyone need to know the mylohyoid groove on the skull!!!

Additionally, the phsyio, BioChem, pathology, micro does have quite a bit of logic thrown in there, whereas anatomy is pure memorisation.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Our anatomy professor used to joke about keeping a list of students from whom he would never get surgery from.

Proud to say, I was near the top of that one 😀

Anatomy is a weed out course, for no reason.

Once you’re in, they should be doing everything to help you excel.

Basic anatomy is fine but WTF, does anyone need to know the mylohyoid groove on the skull!!!

Additionally, the phsyio, BioChem, pathology, micro does have quite a bit of logive thrown in there whereas anatomy is pure memorisation.

How is it a weed out course? Like 95% of med students graduate, and of the 5%, most of it is mental health or things other than academic failures.

It can be hard, but they certainly aren’t trying to weed anyone out.

 

[scoopdaboop]

It’s the volume in the condensed timeframe. It’s not conductive to forming any sort of appreciation for the wonders of the body and anatomical differences from one person to the next. I would rather spend an additional year learning the basic sciences than to be force fed all of the content they try to shove into two years.

No you wouldn't. because they won't make you learn the same content in 3 years except 2, they'll probably make you learn more in the 3 years. Also, don't worry about the "appreciation". That usually comes after a course when you're not stuck in the weeds trying to memorize everything. Anatomy sucks hard and I was miserable during that time too but after it you gain an macroscopic understanding of the human body anatomically and some pathology depending on your curriculum that many others in the "regular world" just do not have.

 

[Ho0v-man]

It’s the volume in the condensed timeframe. It’s not conductive to forming any sort of appreciation for the wonders of the body and anatomical differences from one person to the next. I would rather spend an additional year learning the basic sciences than to be force fed all of the content they try to shove into two years.

It’s a weird phenomenon that becomes more apparent as you progress but you’d learn it worse if you had more time. In general, we remember negative experiences in better detail than positive experiences and this is all just one big negative experience. Kinda similar to a no pain/no gain or diamonds are made under pressure philosophy.

You don’t even realize how much was traumatically scarred into your brain until you start studying for boards and go “oh, crap, I remember that” or “why did I forget that? Dr X went on forever about this and I remember hating him for it.”

The point isn’t to be able to regurgitate it perfectly 5 years from now. It’s to be able to relearn it quickly if you need to in order to learn a procedure or understand an article or a surgeons/radiologists/pathologists explanation of something. This is the logic behind most of preclinical.

BTW, if you strongly disagree with what I’m saying and even feel compelled to tell me how wrong I am and how this whole process is stupid and could definitely be better, then congratulations bc you have the same outlook I had a few years ago about it.

 

[iqe2010]

Currently sitting through an embryology lecture rethinking my life choices lulz

 

[odyssey2]

It’s a weird phenomenon that becomes more apparent as you progress but you’d learn it worse if you had more time. In general, we remember negative experiences in better detail than positive experiences and this is all just one big negative experience. Kinda similar to a no pain/no gain or diamonds are made under pressure philosophy.

You don’t even realize how much was traumatically scarred into your brain until you start studying for boards and go “oh, crap, I remember that” or “why did I forget that? Dr X went on forever about this and I remember hating him for it.”

The point isn’t to be able to regurgitate it perfectly 5 years from now. It’s to be able to relearn it quickly if you need to in order to learn a procedure or understand an article or a surgeons/radiologists/pathologists explanation of something. This is the logic behind most of preclinical.

BTW, if you strongly disagree with what I’m saying and even feel compelled to tell me how wrong I am and how this whole process is stupid and could definitely be better, then congratulations bc you have the same outlook I had a few years ago about it.

I agree with you when it comes to medical education in general, it really is more about information retrieval than memorizing everything perfectly, but this pertains better to something like cardiac or renal physiology than anatomy, a lot of which really IS rote memorization. Of course we still need to do it, but a medical student shouldn't stress out about being especially gifted in anatomy when just about everyone forgets so much within a few months. Also there's really no such thing as a "weed-out" course at a US MD school, there's something like a 95% graduation rate for people who start M1 and no one's gunning to get you expelled.

I thought anatomy was the absolute depths of the preclinical years, M2 was so much more fun because you were learning about actual disease and medicine. You're also a lot more motivated to study every day because of Step 1 so if you pace yourself it's actually pretty low-stress.

 

[Goro]

Gross anatomy has been more soul crushing than MCAT prep. Seriously, what’s the point memorizing such a huge volume of **** in such a small timeframe that we’ll forget as soon as the block is over? I get that we need to know the body, but every intricate tendon, ligament, artery, nerve in the hand/fingers? Hard to stay positive when you don’t see the point and suck at memorizing large volumes of information you see little utility in learning. It’s mindless. There’s nothing conceptual other than clinical correlates. I could easily refer to an atlas for anatomy that is unrelated to whatever field I end up specializing in.

Think about this when a patient comes to see you with a bad back or sore knee.

It's not about memorizing; it's about applying what you know.

You'll survive this. Just make better friends with that cadaver and get Netter's Anatomy. I have some helpful websites, but they'r eon my work computer, which I can't get to!

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I agree with you when it comes to medical education in general, it really is more about information retrieval than memorizing everything perfectly, but this pertains better to something like cardiac or renal physiology than anatomy, a lot of which really IS rote memorization. Of course we still need to do it, but a medical student shouldn't stress out about being especially gifted in anatomy when just about everyone forgets so much within a few months. Also there's really no such thing as a "weed-out" course at a US MD school, there's something like a 95% graduation rate for people who start M1 and no one's gunning to get you expelled.

I thought anatomy was the absolute depths of the preclinical years, M2 was so much more fun because you were learning about actual disease and medicine. You're also a lot more motivated to study every day because of Step 1 so if you pace yourself it's actually pretty low-stress.

Looking back I do wish there had been a way to make lots of M1 more clinically relevant at the time. But even now I'm not sure how you would do that. You really need a fairly decent knowledge base for even basic clinical correlations that you just don't really have for most of 1st year.

Its why I hated PBL that first year, but that's a whole other thread.

 

[Dave1980]

except for MSK most of anatomy is useful. in MSK id say about 1/3 of it is useful. overall thats pretty good considering the other stuff they force you to learn in med school

 

[FutureInternist]

How is it a weed out course? Like 95% of med students graduate, and of the 5%, most of it is mental health or things other than academic failures.

It can be hard, but they certainly aren’t trying to weed anyone out.

Much like Organic 2 or BioChem for undergrad, the volume that is taught vs what is tested on, is disparate.

I think its a weed out course in the sense that if you can’t handle the sheer volume of inane minutiae, then the other subjects become that much harder.

We had to learn approx 100 points just on the head.... no one can tell me that that is in any way useful, other than to warn you.. “More of this is coming your way” 😀

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Much like Organic 2 or BioChem for undergrad, the volume that is taught vs what is tested on, is disparate.

I think its a weed out course in the sense that if you can’t handle the sheer volume of inane minutiae, then the other subjects become that much harder.

We had to learn approx 100 points just on the head.... no one can tell me that that is in any way useful, other than to warn you.. “More of this is coming your way” 😀

Ah yes I think we might have slightly different definitions. I always viewed a weed out class as one that is designed to be difficult to get people not sufficiently motivated or interested to pull the plug early on, which is not what gross anatomy is designed to do.

 

[readmypostsMD]

Am I the only one who doesn’t find it that bad?

it’s pretty cool, I just get to make my own schedule, do whatever I want all day, watch lectures when I want, wake up when I want, eat when I want, go to the store when I want, take breaks when I want

also nothing is actually conceptually hard, unlike all that kinetics and thermo Etc **** we had to learn in chem and what not

plus most schools are p/f so cmom man as joe Biden would say

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Am I the only one who doesn’t find it that bad?

it’s pretty cool, I just get to make my own schedule, do whatever I want all day, watch lectures when I want, wake up when I want, eat when I want, go to the store when I want, take breaks when I want

also nothing is actually conceptually hard, unlike all that kinetics and thermo Etc **** we had to learn in chem and what not

plus most schools are p/f so cmom man as joe Biden would say

Nah it’s not that hard. It’s just really time consuming to be in the lab 3 days a week for 2.5-3 hours at a time dissecting our vessels and muscles and ****.

And about 66% of schools are p/f, but that still leaves 1/3 of schools that are not p/f. And of the ones that are p/f, some of those still have internal rankings.

 

[Tenk]

Oh give me a break. Gross anatomy sucks. It’s asinine to say that you should pick a different career if you don’t like memorizing muscle origins and insertions

I enjoyed it. It was better than doing landscaping or painting fences. I think you just need a better perspective on how crappy other careers can be which is something a lot of premeds lack unfortunately. You are truly blessed.

 

[iqe2010]

Currently discussing if deltoid turbercle of spine of scapula is a sufficient answer if asked where deltoid attaches lulz

 

[OrganRepo]

fortunately you dont forget everything and the second pass is MUCH easier. Also you barely scratch the surface of anatomy, There is so so so much more once you get into variations and get super specific about certain areas

 

[TwoHighways]

Would love to see someone that isn’t a neurologist or an anatomy instructor draw out the brachial plexus into its entirety from memory, label each root, trunk, division, cord, branch, every nerve that branches off of it, what muscles each nerve innervates, and explain how a superior root injury would present vs injury to the inferior roots as well as how those injuries to the brachial plexus would commonly occur. First correct response gets a steak dinner on me should we ever cross paths.

Let’s be real. It sucks. Yeah, everyone goes through it and I’ll suck it up and do the same, but I’m not going to pretend to enjoy the volume dump and mindless rote memorization that goes along with it. Some of it can be reasoned through, a lot of it really can’t and must be memorized. Memorizing facts means nothing if you can’t apply those facts to draw conclusions.

The only gift surgeons and procedural specialists have is the ability to operate potentially for hours on end and rinse and repeat the same monotonous procedures year after year while keeping their sanity. Y’all deserve every penny y’all get paid. It ain’t for me.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Would love to see someone that isn’t a neurologist or an anatomy instructor draw out the brachial plexus into its entirety from memory, label each root, trunk, division, cord, branch, every nerve that branches off of it, what muscles each nerve innervates, and explain how a superior root injury would present vs injury to the inferior roots as well as how those injuries to the brachial plexus would commonly occur. First correct response gets a steak dinner on me should we ever cross paths.

Let’s be real. It sucks. Yeah, everyone goes through it and I’ll suck it up and do the same, but I’m not going to pretend to enjoy the volume dump and mindless rote memorization that goes along with it. Some of it can be reasoned through, a lot of it really can’t and must be memorized. Memorizing facts means nothing if you can’t apply those facts to draw conclusions.

The only gift surgeons and procedural specialists have is the ability to operate potentially for hours on end and rinse and repeat the same monotonous procedures year after year while keeping their sanity. Y’all deserve every penny y’all get paid. It ain’t for me.

I'd bet a neurosurgeon could.

Beside the point though, it's one of those foundations that helps later for upper extremity pathology.

 

[TwoHighways]

I'd bet a neurosurgeon could.

Beside the point though, it's one of those foundations that helps later for upper extremity pathology.

That you’d likely refer out to a neurologist in your family practice should you suspect upper extremity nerve damage in a patient of yours. Just find it extremely hypocritical when people espouse the importance of gross anatomy while not being able to name structures outside what they routinely work with/encounter in their own field.

 

[slowthai]

I think, from a practical standpoint, the preclinical years are about learning the language of medicine more than anything. That, and learning how to swallow vast amounts of information at a blistering pace. This knowledge and skillset are necessary for later success.

One thing you can do is try to make it as painless as possible. For example, you could find a way of studying the material such that it's not as bad. For me, Anki and practice questions make every subject that I hate (embryo and genetics) more bearable. Supplement with school lectures prn.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

That you’d likely refer out to a neurologist in your family practice should you suspect upper extremity nerve damage in a patient of yours. Just find it extremely hypocritical when people espouse the importance of gross anatomy while not being able to name structures outside what they routinely work with/encounter in their own field.

No, first I'd figure out what nerve is causing trouble and why it's causing said trouble. It matters because a) lots of that I can treat myself and b) if not, I need to know where to send it.

Seriously now, you've got several actual doctors saying this stuff matters. Not sure how that's up for debate.

Admittedly none of us use every single thing from preclinical years, but most of us use lots of it.

 

[Goro]

That you’d likely refer out to a neurologist in your family practice should you suspect upper extremity nerve damage in a patient of yours. Just find it extremely hypocritical when people espouse the importance of gross anatomy while not being able to name structures outside what they routinely work with/encounter in their own field.

I have a colleague who is a hospitalist in his 70s. I asked him day if he remembered where the masseter was.

His jaw started moving up and down in a chewing motion.

Seriously now, you've got several actual doctors saying this stuff matters. Not sure how that's up for debate.
Admittedly none of us use every single thing from preclinical years, but most of us use lots of it.

VA, I'll wager that you've learned in your years on SDN that it's always the pre-clinical students who argue about these things with residents and attendings?

 

[GreenDuck12]

I get that we need to know the body, but every intricate tendon, ligament, artery, nerve in the hand/fingers? Hard to stay positive when you don’t see the point

I’m an M1 as well so take this with a grain of salt but I would place trust in the systems that are in place, which ensure that medical students are trained to a high standard (licensing entities, accrediting bodies, faculty committees, etc), that have found anatomy to be a significant and important component of preclinical medical education. We, as students, aren’t in a position to evaluate what is and is not important in our own development. Trust the entities that are in place, and find ways to get the work done. Sometimes we just have to do the thing.

Med school, really any endeavor in life, is going to be quite challenging if you must be convinced of something’s relevance at each turn...

Good luck to you!

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I have a colleague who is a hospitalist in his 70s. I asked him day if he remembered where the masseter was.

His jaw started moving up and down in a chewing motion.

Seriously now, you've got several actual doctors saying this stuff matters. Not sure how that's up for debate.
Admittedly none of us use every single thing from preclinical years, but most of us use lots of it.

VA, I'll wager that you've learned in your years on SDN that it's always the pre-clinical students who argue about these things with residents and attendings?

Nah, everyone argues this point at various stages in medical school (and sometimes beyond). But usually the later on the person is the better the argument is.

There are several residents that I routinely debate this sort of stuff with. We obviously disagree, but I have respect for their position since they're almost done with their training so they have good insight into what matters at minimum to them in their particular area of training and can articulate specifically why they think something is/isn't worthwhile.

In this case its something at most a month into M1 telling me what minutiae matter to me in my practice.

 

[Osminog]

I hated gross anatomy with every ounce of my being, and I failed a majority of my anatomy lab practicals. The most valuable thing that I learned from that class is that I lack the spatial visualization/3D reasoning ability required to be a surgeon or radiologist. Also, I now know a bunch of funny, over-the-top mnemonics—though the value of that is up for debate, considering I don’t remember what any of them stand for.

Regarding the question of whether hating gross anatomy is a sign of eventually becoming a bad doctor... I will report back to this thread in a few years and let you know if I turned out to be a good doctor or a bad doctor. That will hopefully settle the matter.

 

[Chemist0157]

I think it’s important. More of it will stick than you think. Also consider that after those few weeks, you will basically never have that kind of experience again.