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If you're set on plastics, go allo, DO for backup. It is what it is...
I wanna be a plastic surgeon...
- Thread starter mahilladoctor
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That's lame ... I never noticed that. At least she gives KCUMB some love!!
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I'm shadowing a couple of DO physicians right now, one is primary care the other is cardiologist. Neither use OMM.
Just because you go through osteopathic school and become a DO does not mean you HAVE to use OMM.
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Sexyman and Plasticman....is this a forum for medical students or super heroes?
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Sexyman and Plasticman....is this a forum for medical students or super heroes?
Medical students BECOME super heroes as doctors!!
----Insert similar cheesy lines here----
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Let's be honest here...I was always a super hero.Medical students BECOME super heroes as doctors!!
----Insert similar cheesy lines here----
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I think the majority of DOs don't use OMM ... which is unfortunate. However, I wish JP Hazelton was still around ... because he was/is a surgery resident who used to discuss the benefits of OMM in post surgery patients. Very interesting stuff (I miss him ... blah blah sorry for 'calling a member out'
).
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I think the majority of DOs don't use OMM ... which is unfortunate. However, I wish JP Hazelton was still around ... because he was/is a surgery resident who used to discuss the benefits of OMM in post surgery patients. Very interesting stuff (I miss him ... blah blah sorry for 'calling a member out'
I was talking to one of the deans at PCOM yesterday and said that only 25% of DO's practice OMM, and of that only 1% of them only practice OMM...
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I think the majority of DOs don't use OMM ... which is unfortunate. However, I wish JP Hazelton was still around ... because he was/is a surgery resident who used to discuss the benefits of OMM in post surgery patients. Very interesting stuff (I miss him ... blah blah sorry for 'calling a member out'
I think he's got another month on his post hold
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God that honestly makes me happy ... I was afraid I may never hear from him again.
Hey also ... Plasticman;
Would you mind sharing your game plan?? I'm just curious? Integrated? Gen Surg --> Fellowship??? I wish you the best, and think it's awesome that you know exactly what you want to do with medicine
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If you go to a DO school you'll learn all of that stuff too, and there's a lot more to it than most people realize. Everyone's heard about the benefits of OMT in reducung post-op illeus, but what about heart patients, for instance? Have you ever thought about what a rib spreader does during a CABG procedure? That's one heck of a diffuse inhalation disfunction you've created with that one. OMT after CABG will help that, as well as restore motion in the mediastinum and reduce the contracture frm the healing scar. A study a couple of years ago pointed to the hemodynamic effects of OMT less than 4 hrs post op for CABG (while the patient is still sedated) leads to increased thoracic impedance, sv o2%, and cardiac index.
Yet, I still like it most for the added exam skills, the "hand scanner as some folks like to put it. The somatic afferents of the heart during an MI can lead to facilitations and palpable changes in the upper thoracics and ribs. For instance, you might find these changes in an MI hours before CK-MB or Troponin I are available:
Ventricular involvement- C8-T3
Atrial involvement- T4-6
Anterior infarct- T2-3
Inferior wall- T3-5L, C2
There are just so many things that you can do with it, IF you take the time to learn it well.
If you're really serious about plastics, here's some things that I wish I'd known when I was applying to med school. I think these will help you maximize your chances at getting into plastics.
1. go to the BEST med school you can. Plastic surgery residencies care a lot about pedigree, maybe more than anything else. You can be at the top of your class with the highest board score and still only get a handful of interviews at lower tier programs if you go to a mediocre school. As for DO school... in the last 4 years only 1 DO has matched into an allo plastics residency from med school. So yeah, it's possible. But 1 in 4 years means it's probably not going to happen. If you can, try to go to a school that has a plastic surgery residency because you'll have a better chance at getting into that program.
2. Start kissing ass when you hit the door. Find out when and where your plastics division holds weekly conferences and go EVERY week. This will give you a great opportunity to meet influential plastic surgeons from your school. Try to get to know a few of them really well, so they would feel comfortable writing you a recommendation or even calling plastics programs on your behalf.
3. Do research. You can do this by talking to attendings but i think the best way to get involved with research is through residents. Most residents have a couple projects on the back burner that they don't have time for and need some free med-student labor. Start 1st year and keep going, that way you can have a couple of publications when you apply. Case reports do not count as publications to most PRS program directors.
4. Kill step 1, kill your rotations. I am NOT talking about the COMLEX. It doesn't matter where you go to school, if you are applying for allopathic residencies you need to play by their rules and take the USMLE. Last year the average among matched applicants was a 241, but there were many people who scored higher who didn't match. Many programs have an interview cutoff of 230 or 235. This does not mean you will be interviewed above that score, just that you won't be interviewed below that. Honor surgery, because some programs use this as a cutoff too.
5. Do away rotations in different geographic regions. If you're from new england and you're applying to programs in texas, they will probably think you're not willing to move there. Do a rotation on the coast and one in the midwest. Also, many programs grant courtesy interviews to their rotators.
6. Apply everywhere, and apply to general surgery. If you don't match after med school you get to try again after 5 years of general surgery. However, this gets even more competitive, if you can believe it. Try to go to the BEST g-surg program you can (read: best academic reputation, best at getting fellowships... not necessarily best clinical training or best operative experience). If you end up in G-surg you'll want to take a year or two for research---not necessarily in plastics, but get some significant publications.
***Am I saying you can't get into plastics as a DO? No, that's not what i'm saying. I'm sure somebody is going to reply "I know a DO plastic surgeon..." but chances are, they got into plastics in a different era. In the last 5 years alone plastics has become MUCH more competitive. This year there are about 250 applicants for 90 positions. That means most MD students applying to plastics won't get in. There is a HUGE bias against DOs in plastic surgery. I'm not saying i agree with it, but it's something you need to be aware of. As a DO, your odds of getting plastics are a lot lower. Plastics is rough for anybody to get into, so do everything you can to keep the odds in your favor.
1. go to the BEST med school you can. Plastic surgery residencies care a lot about pedigree, maybe more than anything else. You can be at the top of your class with the highest board score and still only get a handful of interviews at lower tier programs if you go to a mediocre school. As for DO school... in the last 4 years only 1 DO has matched into an allo plastics residency from med school. So yeah, it's possible. But 1 in 4 years means it's probably not going to happen. If you can, try to go to a school that has a plastic surgery residency because you'll have a better chance at getting into that program.
2. Start kissing ass when you hit the door. Find out when and where your plastics division holds weekly conferences and go EVERY week. This will give you a great opportunity to meet influential plastic surgeons from your school. Try to get to know a few of them really well, so they would feel comfortable writing you a recommendation or even calling plastics programs on your behalf.
3. Do research. You can do this by talking to attendings but i think the best way to get involved with research is through residents. Most residents have a couple projects on the back burner that they don't have time for and need some free med-student labor. Start 1st year and keep going, that way you can have a couple of publications when you apply. Case reports do not count as publications to most PRS program directors.
4. Kill step 1, kill your rotations. I am NOT talking about the COMLEX. It doesn't matter where you go to school, if you are applying for allopathic residencies you need to play by their rules and take the USMLE. Last year the average among matched applicants was a 241, but there were many people who scored higher who didn't match. Many programs have an interview cutoff of 230 or 235. This does not mean you will be interviewed above that score, just that you won't be interviewed below that. Honor surgery, because some programs use this as a cutoff too.
5. Do away rotations in different geographic regions. If you're from new england and you're applying to programs in texas, they will probably think you're not willing to move there. Do a rotation on the coast and one in the midwest. Also, many programs grant courtesy interviews to their rotators.
6. Apply everywhere, and apply to general surgery. If you don't match after med school you get to try again after 5 years of general surgery. However, this gets even more competitive, if you can believe it. Try to go to the BEST g-surg program you can (read: best academic reputation, best at getting fellowships... not necessarily best clinical training or best operative experience). If you end up in G-surg you'll want to take a year or two for research---not necessarily in plastics, but get some significant publications.
***Am I saying you can't get into plastics as a DO? No, that's not what i'm saying. I'm sure somebody is going to reply "I know a DO plastic surgeon..." but chances are, they got into plastics in a different era. In the last 5 years alone plastics has become MUCH more competitive. This year there are about 250 applicants for 90 positions. That means most MD students applying to plastics won't get in. There is a HUGE bias against DOs in plastic surgery. I'm not saying i agree with it, but it's something you need to be aware of. As a DO, your odds of getting plastics are a lot lower. Plastics is rough for anybody to get into, so do everything you can to keep the odds in your favor.
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"© 2006 Julie Edween, D.O. All Rights Reserved."
at the bottom of the page. It's there.
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...I dont understand what people expect from her...Once your actually a doctor you dont care what your initials are...there is no point in trying to put DO everywhere, whats the point...unless your top level member of the AOA, its not your job to promote Osteopathic medicine and if you want to put DO everywhere thats your perogative. Knowing that DO's are in the minority, why go out of your way to maybe confuse more ppl even more...Edween's site says she trained in "Facial Plastic Surgery" at MSU-Botsford. Facial plastic surgery is not the same as plastic surgery. It means she trained in ENT and now practices cosmetic surgery. Don't compare her to surgeons who did a plastic and reconstructive surgery residency, it's a totally different field. And "board-certified cosmetic surgeon" doesn't mean anything, they certify "cosmetic surgeons" from almost all training backgrounds: OB/GYN, emergency medicine, derm, ENT. These surgeons then use "board-certified cosmetic surgeon" to convince patients that they are qualified to do facelifts and breast augs.
Cosmetic surgeon does not equal plastic surgeon, and vice versa. If you want to be a cosmetic surgeon, do a 1 year internship in surgery and go hang out a shingle on Rodeo. All you need is a medical license. You can even found your own cosmetic surgery board to certify yourself.
Cosmetic surgeon does not equal plastic surgeon, and vice versa. If you want to be a cosmetic surgeon, do a 1 year internship in surgery and go hang out a shingle on Rodeo. All you need is a medical license. You can even found your own cosmetic surgery board to certify yourself.
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Yeah, what you said is true ... but I think the OP meant it in the cosmetic type of sense. I thought at least ...
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I agree with all of the things listed by the poster above, although in the instance quoted I have to disagree somewhat. I think people aiming for any field should go to the best med school possible, but this is far from the most important thing PDs in plastics care about. I am from what most people would consider a mediocre school, and had enough interviews to turn down a few that overlapped. I also did not only interview at "low tier" programs, which I am not sure exist in the world of integrated programs. Finally, I matched at a great program. It can be done with hard work and getting to know the right people. That being said, I didn't ever run into any DO students on the interview trail.....
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But what board will stand behind you when you're presented with your first malpractice suit? Gotta get board certified in PRS...
Absolutely. If you want credibility, you gotta do a credible residency. If all you want is to open up an outpatient cosmetic surgicenter you don't need any specific type of training... but good luck getting any malpractice insurance company to cover you. ABPS certified plastic surgeons are also usually able to bill higher fees than their non-certified counterparts. If you want to do it right, do a PRS residency and get board-certified. But if all you care about is making a quick buck doing breast augs, leave the PRS spots to people who actually want to be plastic and reconstructive surgeons.
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This is very interesting ....
I actually just went to the American Academy of Cosmetic Surgery website... and you are correct in a long of aspects. However, it appears that (to do a fellowship through aaocs) you need to complete a residency in derm, prs, oto-facial, opt (+some other small fellowship), or general surg. However, I'm a bit confused ... how many big plastic surgeons actually complete a residency in prs and then a cosmetic fellowship? And is someone who does a residency in oto-facial for example and then cosmetic fellowship not a board certified plastic surgeon (or are they board certified cosmetic surgeon and board certified oto-facial surgeon)??? I am also curious to see how this affects doctor's careers. Is PRS + Cosmetic the certified route and everything else is iffy ???
Thanks, also ... this is all just because I'm curious!!!
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By completing a PRS residency or fellowship you should have also been trained in cosmetic procedures. The way to become board certified in Plastic and Reconstructive surgery is either integrated PRS residency or surgical residency (usually gen surg) followed by 2 year PRS fellowship.
You almost never see a PRS-trained plastic surgeon doing who is board certified by the American Academy of Cosmetic Surgery, simply because they will be board-certified by the American Board of Plastic Surgery, a much more desirable certification. AACS was created so that non-PRS trained surgeons can still practice cosmetic surgery and appear credentialed. Somebody who does an ENT-facial plastics residency and then a cosmetic fellowship is board certified in ENT, not plastic surgery. There are several dubious cosmetic surgery "boards" that give the illusion of qualification, and the mere presence of a board certification other than ABPS on an advertisement almost certainly tells you that surgeon did NOT complete an actual PRS residency.
Cosmetic surgery fellowships are almost never accredited by the ACGME, so it's not nearly the same level as a fellowship in, say, hand surgery. There are a couple well-reputed cosmetic fellowships in the country (Manhattan Eye Ear and Throat Hospital, UTSW, Marina) but these are usually given to a select few PRS-trained surgeons looking to further hone their cosmetic skills. As far as other cosmetic surgery fellowships, if they're not accredited by the ACGME and you've never heard of them, for all you know they could be a 6 month observership in a surgeon's office or a 2-week course on Mentor breast implants.
Keep in mind, if you just want to open your own surgicenter and do breast augs, you don't need to be board-certified in PRS. But there are advantages to having a PRS board cert: you can get better malpractice coverage, you can obtain hospital privileges, patients can search for you on www.plasticsurgery.org and you can usually charge a bit more for your procedures, depending on your business plan.
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Very good information, you are quite well informed on the subject (as your username would suggest)! However, just in an everyday sense, do people who do like ENT + cosmetic fellowship to do facelifts, breast augs etc ... suffer because of their lack of acreditation??
Also (just curious, and you of course don't have to answer if you don't want to), are you attending an allopathic or osteopathic medical school?
I can't really speak too much for ENT because i don't know a whole lot about it, but there are a good amount of "Facial Plastics" fellowships that are 1 year after an ENT residency. I've been told by practicing plastic surgeons that ENTs doing facial stuff like facelifts and rhinoplasties usually do great work, but they typically charge less for things like breast augs, abdominoplasties, etc. This is just hearsay; don't take it as gospel. As far as how this impacts their business: it's all marketing. There are guys who do nothing but facelifts and charge $20k apiece, but only a handful of surgeons can justify this fee and chances are you or i won't be one of them.
Remember that if you want to be a cosmetic surgeon, you have to deal with cosmetic patients. In case you haven't had the pleasure yet, a lot of them SUCK.
As for your other question, I'm an MD student currently interviewing for PRS. I'm not trolling your forum or anything like that, I just searched for "plastic surgery" and this thread came up.
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Just to put things in perspective, Dr. Robert Rey (Dr. 90210) is not board certified.
Yes he may not be a too typical case, but goes to show you a different view on the limitations/benefits of board certification.
And yes cosmetic patients are.... looney
Yes he may not be a too typical case, but goes to show you a different view on the limitations/benefits of board certification.
And yes cosmetic patients are.... looney
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On the contrary, I think you've been quite informative; not trolling at all.
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Thank you very much ... and trust me, no one thinks you are trolling!! You have been nothing but helpful, and I truly wish you the best of luck with your interviews (you sound like a shoe in)!!
Also, to Tony Montana ... I'm fairly sure (in accordance to what has been said so far) Dr Rey is certified by the Plastic Surgery board (because he did two years of g-surg, 2-3 years of prs residency, then like a year long breast fellowship with Harvard). So as PRS08 stated ... if he was board certified as a plastic surgeon, he wouldn't have the need to be board certified as a cosmetic surgeon. Could be wrong though.
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He is ABPS board elegible, but he is not board certified. When you complete one of the approved pathways by the ABPS or the AOCS you are elegible for board certification by one of these board. However, it isn't until you actually submit yourself to the examination that you become board certified.
Cosmetic board certification, as PRS08 explained is a gimmick. Now ABPS or AOCS certification requires training in an integrated, combined or independent program for ABPS or independent for AOCS.
Being elegible to be PRS certified is not the same as being board certified. Hope that helps.
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Ohhh nice ... I didn't even notice that the was elegible but hadn't taken the cerficiation, wow (but of course understand the difference). Also, what is the difference between AOCS and Cosmetic Board Certification???
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Cosmetic boards are agencies created with the purpose of making those physicians who did not undertake training in PRS look good. They are fancy certifications. For the uninformed customer (not many nowadays) it has the appearance of being meaningful, however, in the medical world it is nothing more than decoration.
Only osteopathic plastic surgeons and other surgeons can be certified by the AOCS, the ABPS may certify both MDs and DOs who completed their approved PRS programs.
There's a little more to the story than that. First of all, the term "board-eligible" only means that you've completed a plastic surgery residency. The ABPS prohibits plastic surgeons from using this term in advertisements, since it may mislead potential patients into thinking you're boarded in plastics. Second, the ABPS exams are reputedly very, very difficult and many graduates of accredited PRS residencies still do not pass. They have a reputation similar to the legal bar exam in terms of difficulty. In order to sit for oral boards, you must be out of residency for at least a year collecting cases, you must have plastic surgery hospital privileges, and you must turn in all advertising documents for review. Finally, i've heard of a new rule of the ABPS that they won't certify (or recertify) any plastic surgeon who appears on a TV show such as dr. 90210, miami slice, or any other sensationalized plastic surgery "reality" show. That last part is just what i've heard, i can't find anything to support it on the ABPS site.
So if you see a plastic surgeon who doesn't explicitly say they are board-certified in plastic surgery, it could mean a number of different things: they didn't do a PRS residency and are therefore ineligible, they're fresh out of residency and haven't sat for the exam yet, they've failed the exam, or for some other reason the board won't certify them. In most cases, non-boarded = shady, and patients are becoming aware of this. That's why non-boarded surgeons usually charge lower fees for cosmetic procedures, unless they have an established practice or awesome marketing skills.
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http://www.cosmeticsurgerynow.com/
This dude is a DO- youd never know it though...
he even has MD at the 'copyright' spot at the bottom of the website- but if you go to the medical plaza hes in on the directory he is listed as a DO. However is door says "DR. MICHAEL GARTNER"
http://www.smartplasticsurgery.com/drmichaelgartner.html
and this says hes a DO...
whats the deal with this guy
This dude is a DO- youd never know it though...
he even has MD at the 'copyright' spot at the bottom of the website- but if you go to the medical plaza hes in on the directory he is listed as a DO. However is door says "DR. MICHAEL GARTNER"
http://www.smartplasticsurgery.com/drmichaelgartner.html
and this says hes a DO...
whats the deal with this guy
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Sketchy. And frankly, pretty reprehensible.
