I want to be an orthodontist to make more money and have an easier job

[011110]

I’m a GP, debt free, make 250-300k. I want the easier lifestyle of an orthodontist where assistants do most of the work, and all the crap from being a GP I don’t have to deal with: hygiene checks, inserts, surgery, pedo, needles, and unhappy patients.

Can I make 400k+ as an orthodontist with a much less stressful lifestyle?

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[DouglasFir2020]

You do realize a lot of the ortho population is still in the pediatric range? And that unhappy parents can be even worse than unhappy patients?
Sure, there are a lot of aspects of being a GP that ortho doesn’t have to deal with, but I wouldn’t translate that to being automatically easier. Two very different ball games.

 

[laundry]

I’m a GP, debt free, make 250-300k. I want the easier lifestyle of an orthodontist where assistants do most of the work, and all the crap from being a GP I don’t have to deal with: hygiene checks, inserts, surgery, pedo, needles, and unhappy patients.

Can I make 400k+ as an orthodontist with a much less stressful lifestyle?

Work less and make more, wouldn't that be the dream 😉 I smell a troll, maybe...if not, well, here goes.
1) If you're not a fan of hygiene checks, guess what 50% of ortho is about - checks!
2) Same for pedo - the only ortho cases I refer out are phase one.
3) With advancement of clear aligners, GPs are doing more and more ortho (see #2), which means you are stuck with more difficult cases and with less and less referrals. So, you'd have to wine/dine more GPs to get your piece of the pie. Now imagine you piss off a patient as a GP - you'd lose that patient and maybe 2-3 more of their family/friends. If you piss off a patient from a referral source, you are risking ALL of the patients from that referral source.
4) Becoming a specialist now would mean selling your practice (or getting a full-time associate) while you are in school for 2 years. This means a massive loss of revenue. I wouldn't put an associate for 2 years, as it would devaluate your practice, which you'd most likely have to sell upon graduation, anyway.

If you own your practice and have been there for more than 3 years, 250-300K is kinda low. Perhaps you need to optimize your practice instead to get you to the 400K? Have you incorporated ortho into your practice? Have you though about bringing in an associate to decrease your work load?

 

[011110]

You do realize a lot of the ortho population is still in the pediatric range? And that unhappy parents can be even worse than unhappy patients?
Sure, there are a lot of aspects of being a GP that ortho doesn’t have to deal with, but I wouldn’t translate that to being automatically easier. Two very different ball games.

unless your ortho practice is heavily phase one, which I doubt, the adolescent population is far easier to deal with than treating crying pedo with drills and syringes. Ortho is by far an easier and less stressful lifestyle than pedo or gp. why do you think so many pedo or gp go back specialize in ortho?Never the opposite way

 

[011110]

Work less and make more, wouldn't that be the dream 😉 I smell a troll, maybe...if not, well, here goes.
1) If you're not a fan of hygiene checks, guess what 50% of ortho is about - checks!
2) Same for pedo - the only ortho cases I refer out are phase one.
3) With advancement of clear aligners, GPs are doing more and more ortho (see #2), which means you are stuck with more difficult cases and with less and less referrals. So, you'd have to wine/dine more GPs to get your piece of the pie. Now imagine you piss off a patient as a GP - you'd lose that patient and maybe 2-3 more of their family/friends. If you piss off a patient from a referral source, you are risking ALL of the patients from that referral source.
4) Becoming a specialist now would mean selling your practice (or getting a full-time associate) while you are in school for 2 years. This means a massive loss of revenue. I wouldn't put an associate for 2 years, as it would devaluate your practice, which you'd most likely have to sell upon graduation, anyway.

If you own your practice and have been there for more than 3 years, 250-300K is kinda low. Perhaps you need to optimize your practice instead to get you to the 400K? Have you incorporated ortho into your practice? Have you though about bringing in an associate to decrease your work load?

where do I begin? When you are doing a crown, rct, etc and have 3 hygienists interrupting you is way more stressful than doing ortho checks. Again phase one ortho is a very small segment of treating ortho and its not the same as doing pedo, never even by a long shot.

the average income for an ortho is probably about 350k. it’s also a much easier lifestyle and generally easier on your body. Orthodontists tend time be much happier and less high strung than Gp, pedo, etc which translates into a happier home life

 

[free99]

I think $400k+ is pushing it as an ortho. Most new grads I know make between $200k and 275k starting. That said, can't put a value on happiness. Could you reduce your current hours, make less, and be just as happy as you envision yourself being as an orthodontist? 3 years of lost income while in residency plus the $150-300k price tag that comes with orthodontics residency is a tough pill to swallow. That said, I'm pedo, and going back to ortho after some time in peds is definitely not out of the question for me either.

More of a Toyota guy here, but I like your username, OP.

 

[011110]

I think $400k+ is pushing it as an ortho. Most new grads I know make between $200k and 275k starting. That said, can't put a value on happiness. Could you reduce your current hours, make less, and be just as happy as you envision yourself being as an orthodontist? 3 years of lost income while in residency plus the $150-300k price tag that comes with orthodontics residency is a tough pill to swallow. That said, I'm pedo, and going back to ortho after some time in peds is definitely not out of the question for me either.

More of a Toyota guy here, but I like your username, OP.

its about a one million dollar cost when you take everything into account, but if you are making 500k+ doing ortho you make it back in 4 years.

 

[011110]

I had these thoughts and went back to for endo. The loss of income and going back to the school environment is really tough. The higher income is not guaranteed at the end either. I’m not sure I made the right choice.

I would recommend finding enjoyment outside of work and avoiding the trap of comparing yourself to other dentists. Then you will be free to practice in a way that is tolerable.

There is no easy path.

its not guaranteed but the law of averages says you will earn much more as an orthodontist than GP. It is much much less headache on the day to day than as aGP

 

[P7898]

its not guaranteed but the law of averages says you will earn much more as an orthodontist than GP. It is much much less headache on the day to day than as aGP

OP are you comparing associate income to associate income? Are you $250-$300k as a GP associate? How many hours and days per week?

 

[011110]

OP are you comparing associate income to associate income? Are you $250-$300k as a GP associate? How many hours and days per week?

I am a GP associate 40 hours per week 250-300k. Associate levels for ortho are similar with a less stressful lifestyle. Owner income is much higher for ortho

 

[P7898]

I am a GP associate 40 hours per week 250-300k. Associate levels for ortho are similar with a less stressful lifestyle. Owner income is much higher for ortho

You are killing it. What kinds of procedures are you doing? What % of collections are you on? Are you at a corp office? It would make more financial sense to just stay where you are. Unless you REALLY hate your job I wouldn't move. But if you do, I would try to pay for ortho residency in cash.

How would you make $500k as an associate ortho though like you mentioned above? Or would you take over someones practice?

 

[011110]

You are killing it. What kinds of procedures are you doing? What % of collections are you on? Are you at a corp office? It would make more financial sense to just stay where you are. Unless you REALLY hate your job I wouldn't move. But if you do, I would try to pay for ortho residency in cash.

How would you make $500k as an associate ortho though like you mentioned above? Or would you take over someones practice?

I do a variety of General, but heavy ortho: brackets, aligners, etc.I enjoy ortho and it is much less stressful than GP. I also would like to eclipse 400-500k income and it is very tough as a GP, much easier as an ortho. I don’t think I would get much more as an ortho associate, but ortho owner would let me clip that 500k mark

 

[P7898]

I do a variety of General, but heavy ortho: brackets, aligners, etc.I enjoy ortho and it is much less stressful than GP. I also would like to eclipse 400-500k income and it is very tough as a GP, much easier as an ortho. I don’t think I would get much more as an ortho associate, but ortho owner would let me clip that 500k mark

That is cool that you do brackets. Where would you acquire a $500k net ortho practice? Why not just have your own GP office and do less work for more money? Granted; you'd probably have more administrative work from the practice.

 

[Debt Free DDS]

Yes, but you have to go back to school. You will lose out on 2-3 years of income. It will take a while to catch back up.

 

[ibuprofen400mg]

Mainly focusing on dentoalveolar, thirds, Implants and sedations. I work 5.5 days a week for cooperate. Average take home Is about 5~7K per day (big implant&sinus lift days, take home is about ~15K). I will most likely stay with cooperate until I pay off all my debt (student loans, mortgage, and my recent C63s purchase). Only problem? The cooperate wants me to sign a long term contract since I produce a lot for the company.

 

[011110]

That is cool that you do brackets. Where would you acquire a $500k net ortho practice? Why not just have your own GP office and do less work for more money? Granted; you'd probably have more administrative work from the practice.

not sure but I know I hustle hard as a GP. If I hustle the same as an ortho I bet I could double my income

 

[011110]

Yes, but you have to go back to school. You will lose out on 2-3 years of income. It will take a while to catch back up.

I assume I can come out making atleast what I’m making now. If I can double my income to 500k I’ll make up the difference pretty quick with much less stress

 

[P7898]

I assume I can come out making atleast what I’m making now. If I can double my income to 500k I’ll make up the difference pretty quick with much less stress

Are you accounting post tax? Make sure you get your tax bracket right. It will jump 8-10% up from your current tax.

Are you married or do you file as single? That will effect it. If you’re single then it won’t effect your taxes.

 

[ssm38]

As someone who is interested in pursuing orthodontics, @charlestweed and @2TH MVR , are these reasonable expectations for salary and lifestyle in ortho?

 

[011110]

Are you accounting post tax? Make sure you get your tax bracket right. It will jump 8-10% up from your current tax.

Are you married or do you file as single? That will effect it. If you’re single then it won’t effect your taxes.

you also get tax deductions as an owner of a practice that I do not get as an associate so the difference is negligible

 

[011110]

As someone who is interested in pursuing orthodontics, @charlestweed and @2TH MVR , are these reasonable expectations for salary and lifestyle in ortho?

of course it is. There is no doubt ortho is an easy and less stressful life than the other dental fields.This translates to a happier home life. If u hustle in ortho u can crush it as an owner without the hassle of being a GP. I used to think otherwise but now I’m all chips in into paying 300k for a coveted ortho spot.

 

[mmc12]

of course it is. There is no doubt ortho is an easy and less stressful life than the other dental fields.This translates to a happier home life. If u hustle in ortho u can crush it as an owner without the hassle of being a GP. I used to think otherwise but now I’m all chips in into paying 300k for a coveted ortho spot.

Have you read this report put out by the AAO? The job market for ortho is not great

https://www.aaoinfo.org/sites/default/files/Orthodontic%20Workforce%20Report_April%202018.pdf

 

[ToothJockey]

"When I entered ortho school I did not anticipate making $100,000.00/year, seeing 80+ patients a day, driving between 4 different offices, working with off brand brackets and supplies, old instruments with less than ethical standards."

“I work 6 days a week and don't see my daughter"

"I get minimal time to see my wife and 3 kids. Mainly just on Sundays.”

Yikes....

 

[011110]

Have you read this report put out by the AAO? The job market for ortho is not great

https://www.aaoinfo.org/sites/default/files/Orthodontic%20Workforce%20Report_April%202018.pdf

if I remember aren’t you an ortho resident? Yea I read it, but the same report could’ve said GP on the title and would have been the same things said. Atleast with ortho the job is much less stressful and anxiety inducing than GP. If you hustle I’m sure you can easily pull over 400k doing ortho, I’m sure of it

 

[011110]

"When I entered ortho school I did not anticipate making $100,000.00/year, seeing 80+ patients a day, driving between 4 different offices, working with off brand brackets and supplies, old instruments with less than ethical standards."

“I work 6 days a week and don't see my daughter"

"I get minimal time to see my wife and 3 kids. Mainly just on Sundays.”

Yikes....

same could be said for GP. You also bring stress home from being a GP. They are just starting out too, give them 5-10 years I’m sure they are all killing it.

 

[P7898]

of course it is. There is no doubt ortho is an easy and less stressful life than the other dental fields.This translates to a happier home life. If u hustle in ortho u can crush it as an owner without the hassle of being a GP. I used to think otherwise but now I’m all chips in into paying 300k for a coveted ortho spot.

You would pay $300k with interest for an ortho residency as a GP making $250-$300k a year?

 

[011110]

You would pay $300k with interest for an ortho residency as a GP making $250-$300k a year?

definitely. My income potential is so much higher as an ortho with less stress and anxiety

 

[P7898]

So are you going into it because you like it or for the money? How are you investing? Why do you need more money??

 

[ToothJockey]

Why not just buy a practice and do tons of ortho? With your high production as an associate, I bet you could definitely hit the 500k mark as an owner GP. Unless orthodontics truly is your passion, financially becoming an owner GP makes more sense imo


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[011110]

So are you going into it because you like it or for the money? How are you investing? Why do you need more money??

im going into it because it is less stressful than being a Gp, and yes I can make more money. Everyone wants more money- maybe ego, I don’t know that is too general a question

 

[011110]

Why not just buy a practice and do tons of ortho? With your high production as an associate, I bet you could definitely hit the 500k mark as an owner GP. Unless orthodontics truly is your passion, financially becoming an owner GP makes more sense imo


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Not so sure. The flow of an ortho practice is completely different than a GP office. The set ups are just not the same to make it very profitable in a GP office. Plus I enjoy the ego of being called a specialist

 

[P7898]

Are you single? Does your spouse work? Would he or she be willing to move?

 

[Cold Front]

I had these thoughts and went back to for endo. The loss of income and going back to the school environment is really tough. The higher income is not guaranteed at the end either. I’m not sure I made the right choice.

I would recommend finding enjoyment outside of work and avoiding the trap of comparing yourself to other dentists. Then you will be free to practice in a way that is tolerable.

There is no easy path.

Do you regret going back to do Endo? What were the challenges first year after residency? I always see Endo position ads on Indeed - for $400-450k a year! Is that typical? I’m sure you need to be fast and experienced to make that level of income. How many cases did you average a day your first year or so after residency?


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[AONLINE]

OP, how many years have you been practicing as a GP? How was your dental GPA and everything else on the application? Do you think you stand a good chance of getting in? Are you okay with applying to expensive for-profit ortho programs?

 

[011110]

Are you single? Does your spouse work? Would he or she be willing to move?

married and yes

 

[011110]

OP, how many years have you been practicing as a GP? How was your dental GPA and everything else on the application? Do you think you stand a good chance of getting in? Are you okay with applying to expensive for-profit ortho programs?

out 7 years. I think most could get in now if they wanted to with the expensive programs. It shows how much dentists want to do ortho since they can charge so much and still have applicant. Ortho is beautiful life compared to being a GP, no more stress and anxiety

 

[Cold Front]

Ortho is beautiful life compared to being a GP, no more stress and anxiety

Actually, any field in dentistry is a beautiful life if you “love” doing it. The problem is, majority of people I met don’t truly love dentistry and were drawn to it financially.


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[Cold Front]

I’m in a program right now. Income varies widely just like GP. Those numbers are not unreasonable. Recent grads from my program get paid 40-50%.

That’s why I think speed matters a lot, like a GP. If I was Endo new grad today, I would be slow and maybe doing 2-3 cases a day for the first year or 2. Even with 40-50% - I would not be netting the $400k+ a year numbers for a while. Just like a GP would not net $250-300k a year for a while, maybe 2-3 years for a motivated GP.


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[P7898]

Well OP loves ortho and you should really take that into consideration with the quality of life. I think that you should go for it. If this will make you happier that should be priority number 1. I think doing something for the money as a first reason will only lead you to disappointment.

Being that you are 7 years out, you know what is good for you. If your wife is on board and you have the finances to take on $300k debt and living then you should do it if it will make you happy. However, if you do ortho and only find $200k jobs for the first couple years and you wouldn't be happy with that, then you should really ask yourself if you are doing it for the right reasons.

 

[Cold Front]

Most start at 4 cases/day, ramp up within a few months.

The fees range from city to city, state to state, like GPs. The northeast has the highest Endo fees, an average of about $1,600 for a molar case.

Also, why did you say “I’m not sure if I made the right choice” about Endo in an earlier post? Do you think you would be as successful as a GP if you did not apply to Endo anyways?


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[P7898]

The fees range from city to city, state to state, like GPs. The northeast has the highest Endo fees, an average of about $1,600 for a molar case.

Also, why did you say “I’m not sure if I made the right choice” about Endo in an earlier post? Do you think you would be as successful as a GP if you did not apply to Endo anyways?


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Does insurance reimburse most of that compared to GP?

 

[Cold Front]

Does insurance reimburse most of that compared to GP?

That’s the office fee for an Endodontist, not the insurances fee schedules. Insurances would pay less.


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[gryffindor]

Ego of being a specialist, don't want to work hard, want to make tons of money.

You're gonna fit right in.

 

[011110]

Ego of being a specialist, don't want to work hard, want to make tons of money.

You're gonna fit right in.

haha i cant wait! Hows life as an ortho?

 

[mmc12]

How old will you be when you start ortho residency?

 

[011110]

How old will you be when you start ortho residency?

35, either 37 or 38 when I’m out

 

[Cold Front]

Ego of being a specialist, don't want to work hard, want to make tons of money.

You're gonna fit right in.

Sounds about right for specialists.


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[011110]

Sounds about right for specialists.


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If your taking on the addition schooling for ortho you should come out making more than a GP. No one does ortho in dental school to know it’s their passion. Most if not all ortho applicants expect to make more than GPs

 

[Cold Front]

If your taking on the addition schooling for ortho you should come out making more than a GP. No one does ortho in dental school to know it’s their passion. Most if not all ortho applicants expect to make more than GPs

True. But anyone who does ortho should do it for the “passion”, and not for “making it”. General dentists have 100x potential in terms of income - but most general dentists are not business savvy and don’t bother understanding their full potential.


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[P7898]

If you want money do GP ownership.