I want to quit

[SomedaySoon]

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I know that everyone in internship wants to quit at some point, and I have felt that same minor desire to quit, but now all I can think about is quitting and never looking back. Quitting surgery, quitting medicine.

I have realized that I am avoiding the OR because I don't like it, and I get bored with all the talk of which procedure and how, rather than of the whole person. I have realized that I don't want to do surgery, and I just want to walk away. I am not sure that I even want to practice medicine anymore, I am more interested in bio research or teaching biology. I have considered changing, to FP perhaps, but am unsure that I wnat that either.

What really frustrates me is how hard is is to get any job, even with all the school time, etc. In order to change residencies I have to wait for the next ERAS/Match, because even to get a spot outside the match, places want to ERAS app. What a waste of time and money! And it steams me to think of all the money I have already spent on school, testing, appying for residency, etc. and I feel very alone trying to make changes in my life.
I know that my program is part of the problem-3 people have already quit this year and I know two others who would quit if it weren't for their loans. But how can they go on doing something they hate, especially when it takes so much time and energy?

I'm not sure why I am writing- I guess because I can't talk to anyone in my program about this and I want some insider advice. Is it necessary that I finish the year and get my license, even if I don't use it? Will that help me in the long run? Or is the year still a wash if I restart in another field? Could I make a resident-level income working in an urgent care after one year, and how do I get malpractice coverage? Are there any bio research jobs that it helps to have the MD for, or am I basically a BS with a lot of debt? How do I make it through the year when I am so unhappy? If I am going to finsih this year, I want to do it well...how do I keep going? Why is the whole medical field/job search/training so screwed up for doctors?

TIA for all real replies. And to those trolls who will say good ridance, enjoy yourself typing some rude reply, I will ignore it.

 

[SocialistMD]

I have realized that I am avoiding the OR because I don't like it, and I get bored with all the talk of which procedure and how, rather than of the whole person... I am not sure that I even want to practice medicine anymore, I am more interested in bio research or teaching biology. I have considered changing, to FP perhaps, but am unsure that I wnat that either.

First off, let me say to you that I feel bad for your situation; that you're miserable, that you've wasted a year (if not more) and that you find yourself at this terrible crossroad. To me, it doesn't sound like you should be in surgery at all. For all the pain that went into my intern year, I never once hated or avoided the OR. I can't imagine you will ever get over that, so you might as well get out now for your own sake.

My advice; go into pathology. There are usually many positions available outside of the match. It will allow you to do both research as well as teach (medical students, residents; I loved my pathology course and my pathology professors). It will allow you to continue to use the degree you spent four years earning. It will allow you to have a salary that can pay off the debts incurred from said years of school. The other option is to go into industry as a basic scientist or consultant. I think the pathology route would be easier to manage and would be more secure, but it depends on what you want to do.

Again, this is just my opinion, but I can't imagine ever hating the OR and having some sort of recovery from that to being a happy surgeon or surgical resident.

Best of luck.

P.S. What program has lost three residents this year? Just curious, and it may help the applicants of this year know it may be a place to stay away from.

 

[drivesmecraazee]

First off, let me say to you that I feel bad for your situation; that you're miserable, that you've wasted a year (if not more) and that you find yourself at this terrible crossroad. To me, it doesn't sound like you should be in surgery at all. For all the pain that went into my intern year, I never once hated or avoided the OR. I can't imagine you will ever get over that, so you might as well get out now for your own sake.

My advice; go into pathology. There are usually many positions available outside of the match. It will allow you to do both research as well as teach (medical students, residents; I loved my pathology course and my pathology professors). It will allow you to continue to use the degree you spent four years earning. It will allow you to have a salary that can pay off the debts incurred from said years of school. The other option is to go into industry as a basic scientist or consultant. I think the pathology route would be easier to manage and would be more secure, but it depends on what you want to do.

Again, this is just my opinion, but I can't imagine ever hating the OR and having some sort of recovery from that to being a happy surgeon or surgical resident.

Best of luck.

P.S. What program has lost three residents this year? Just curious, and it may help the applicants of this year know it may be a place to stay away from.

This seems like a very good advice...👍

 

[Pilot Doc]

My advice would be to try an SSRI for a month and see if you feel the same way. And that's sincere advice - you sound depressed.

 

[surgeon2b forev]

I actually agree with Pilot Doc.

Look, I'm not saying that you shouldn't leave surgery necessarily; however, you worked really hard to get to where you are now, and it just seems odd that NOW you want to quit - December of your intern year. Look, EVERYONE wants to quit in december of their intern year!

Why did you originally go into surgery? It seems to me that you just have the bad fortune of being at a place that is really malignant, and in the last 6 months that has sorta sucked out the life from you.

You have no idea what it's like to be a surgeon so far anyway, instead, you know what it's like to be a scut-monkey intern. The operations you go to as an intern are a lot different than the operations you will be performing in 6-7years. Do you associate the OR with being yelled at, or having to deal with attendings one on one, or what?

Good luck i wish u the best

 

[earboy]

Whatever you do, don't make a rash decision on this one. I was in the same boat. I almost quit my intern year (my reasons were different than yours). If possible, you need to remove yourself from the situation for a while. Do you have vacation coming up? Can you get them to give you a couple of consecutive weeks off so that you can think about it?

I agree with Pilot Doc, too. Your situation sucks and, because of it, you're depressed. Take an SSRI and give it the requisite time to kick in. If you can't step away, do that to see if it makes a difference.

The perspective you paint regarding the OR makes it seem that you pretty much despise it. But your mood may also be clouding the issue. If you truly don't want to be in the OR anymore, then don't do surgery anymore. One of my ENT co-residents hated the OR. They didn't realize it until after completing 2 yrs of surgical training and made the switch to radiology last yr. It's no secret that plenty of people leave surgery and most do so during their intern yr. There's no shame in that.

In my opinion, I think you're depressed enough to make all of medicine seem horrendous at the moment. That's a really bad and irrational time to make career decisions that you may end up regretting. I would address that with therapy or a brief hiatus.

I'm really sorry you're going through this difficult situation. You're definitely not alone in feeling this way. But you are unique in having the courage to speak up about it. Best of luck.

 

[gasnewby]

sorry for everything that you're going through. i hope you have some kind of support system- family, friends, significant other. if you moved away when you started residency, i hope you have a vacation coming up and can visit them to recharge your batteries.

your program sounds horrible. try not to let them beat you down.

to try to answer some of your questions:

if you finish the year and take step 3, you can get your MD license, and i believe that will qualify you to moonlight or do locums.

i wonder if your options for research and/or teaching may be limited because you are not a PhD. although we had a surgery attending go into private sector research recently. he wasn't a PhD.

if you complete this year, it may not have been a wasted year. if you do radiology, ophtho, anesthesia, among others, you can use it for your pgy1 year. in any event, leaving any residency in the middle of the year is a red flag.

most surgery residents view the OR as a sanctuary. where you don't have to answer stupid pages, run around checking labs, write tpn, and the usual pain of floor work. if you dread going to the OR, it's possible that surgery is not for you, and that's ok. lord knows it took me long enough to figure that out.

if you switch, remember that your program director has to write you a letter. try to stay on good terms. they will also know about unposted positions at
other programs.

try not to get worked up about the time and money you have spent on your education. think of it as an investment.

i think the suggestion of pathology is an excellent recommendation. maybe consider radiology if you don't like patient contact. you mentioned you liked dealing with the whole person. maybe family practice or psych? pm&r is a laid-back residency with good hours as an attending and a decent wage.

i know it's tough but try to keep your sanity during the 2nd half of this sucky year. try to exercise, avoid alcohol, and remember you can get confidential counseling at your hospital. your dept will not find out. it's usually called employee assistance program or something similar.

"they can hurt you, but they can't stop the clock"
-house of god (i think)

 

[Castro Viejo]

"they can hurt you, but they can't stop the clock"
-house of god (i think)

No, it's not from the "House of God."

Dunno where it's from, but I know not there. The first time I heard it was from a trauma attending in med school who wore pink scrubs (a la Shock) and said that all the time.

 

[Castro Viejo]

I'm not sure why I am writing- I guess because I can't talk to anyone in my program about this and I want some insider advice. Is it necessary that I finish the year and get my license, even if I don't use it? Will that help me in the long run? Or is the year still a wash if I restart in another field? Could I make a resident-level income working in an urgent care after one year, and how do I get malpractice coverage? Are there any bio research jobs that it helps to have the MD for, or am I basically a BS with a lot of debt? How do I make it through the year when I am so unhappy? If I am going to finsih this year, I want to do it well...how do I keep going? Why is the whole medical field/job search/training so screwed up for doctors?

I agree with everyone else. You sound miserable and it's expected. Internship, especially a surgical one, sucks. And sucks bad. I felt very much like you do as an intern. I considered leaving medicine altogether. I think everyone's been there. I actually even interviewed for non-medicine jobs in areas like finance at some big places.

But I stuck it out for the year and found I loved my second year. It was torture, sure, but I felt in charge and alive as a physician and budding surgeon.

I'm not saying that you will necessarily feel this way too, but I think you should give yourself a little more time in this internship thing and see how you might enjoy the second year. You'll have a bit more say in what goes on, generally, and it should be less scut in most places.

Then again, what are your options if you do leave residency training altogether?

Not much. Without at least one year of internship under your belt, most states won't license you, so you won't be able to practice independently. And if you did an internship and got a license, you may be able to find some ED to let you moonlight and cover some extra shifts or something. And that may not work out either since you probably don't know much about clinical medicine. And malpractice? I dunno about that.

So an MD without residency training is kind of stuck unless he completes a full training program.

Maybe you just don't want to deal with patients? Anesthesia? Pathology? Radiology?

Or perhaps if you enjoy the laboratory, how about going back to school to get a PhD and being a MudPhud?

Or do what I did and give a friend at Goldman Sachs a call. 🙂

 

[gasnewby]

The first time I heard it was from a trauma attending in med school who wore pink scrubs (a la Shock) and said that all the time.

we had a new attending come from there and whipped out the pinks one day during his first week. he got sooooo much **** for it! they're just not cool unless everyone around you is wearing them. and even then? not so much. i'd love to know who the genius was behind that.

 

[Castro Viejo]

we had a new attending come from there and whipped out the pinks one day during his first week. he got sooooo much **** for it! they're just not cool unless everyone around you is wearing them. and even then? not so much. i'd love to know who the genius was behind that.

Yeah, he got a lot of crap from everyone. Even patients.

He was a tall, pale, red-headed guy with freckles and this crop of hair that made him look like a big Ronald McDonald. And then you add in the pink scrubs, green clogs... Throw in a mix of locals from culturally-sensitive and socially-progressive East Flatbush, Brooklyn, and gang-toting teens at Kings County Hospital with bullets in their asses and you've got problems.



Ahh... Good times.

 

[Winged Scapula]

we had a new attending come from there and whipped out the pinks one day during his first week. he got sooooo much **** for it! they're just not cool unless everyone around you is wearing them. and even then? not so much. i'd love to know who the genius was behind that.

From a friend who did his fellowship there, supposedly the reason was to prevent the nearby gangbangers from stealing the scrubs.

No one looks cools hanging out on the corner, MMOB, in pink.

 

[Misterioso]

If you don't have the desire to be the best surgeon you can be then get out. This profession doesn't need (anymore) slackers who decided to do surgery because they thought they could hide behind the 80 hour rule and make it a "lifestyle" job, only to find out you have to pretty much dedicate your life to it. I'm being totally serious. Find something where you can work 9-5 or whatever and leave this profession to those who really want it.

 

[gasnewby]

re: misery, or whatever you name is

spoken like someone who has never done one day of surgical residency. what great insight you have.

 

[DOCNY81]

Totally agree with the mysterious one...

 

[kamehame]

The medical field is set up extremely poorly. You go to medical school, get to choose your field for life based on a 1-2 month exposure where you're not really exposed to anything. Then you get Matched into programs almost at random based on two lists and pray that you weren't lied to TOO much. And in the middle of it, many people realize that they hate it. But by then they owe so much money and are so old that they are effectively trapped. That's the medical field, my friend. It is easy for people to say "choose wisely" or "suck it up" or "it'll get better" or any number of pedantic phrases that mean absolutely nothing. And the reason is because there is nothing that can be said. It's like if your best friend dies in a car accident. What exactly can anyone say to make it better or less meaningless? Nothing. I'm not going to pretend to have something to say other than "good luck."

 

[sleeping]

"I want to quit"

I think we have all had this thought cross our minds more then 100x, correction 1000x times. As the previous posters have said. When I really get away from the hospital for awhile, go over some of the reasons I went into medicine. I realize, I really do love medicine.

You just need to understand how 1st year sucks so much, this is from someone who did a prelim then cat 1st year. God help me, I was about to kill myself, or anyone who got in my way.😀 Still working on that.

As per prev posters, take a break asap, talk to family and friends go out have fun. Think about why you went to medicine, separate that from the sobs around you. And choose an answer when you feel a little better.

 

[drivesmecraazee]

If you don't have the desire to be the best surgeon you can be then get out. This profession doesn't need (anymore) slackers who decided to do surgery because they thought they could hide behind the 80 hour rule and make it a "lifestyle" job, only to find out you have to pretty much dedicate your life to it. I'm being totally serious. Find something where you can work 9-5 or whatever and leave this profession to those who really want it.

Dude, do you realize that every time you post a coment someone (sometimes everyone) insults you in a certain way? Why do you keep doing it? Your coments always center on how hard this profesion is and how tough one must be to face it. Did you had to go through some traumatic experiences in your life? It's the only posible reason for your attitude.
I really don't understand how can you be so proud of being an a$$ and making others feel bad about themselves. I know were both still young but I still can give you a little advice: Don't talk too much, you never what's gonna happen to you in the future.

Now get out of here bug.

 

[PeepshowJohnny]

Dude, do you realize that every time you post a coment someone (sometimes everyone) insults you in a certain way? Why do you keep doing it?

Uh, that's exactly why he keeps doing it. He enjoys getting a rise out of people with his "50's esque douchebag surgeon" character.

 

[Blade28]

I agree with most of the excellent advice in this thread.

(1) Most of us have thought about quitting at least once a year - if not more. I agree that being a scut monkey is different from operating - and maybe it's hard to see the forest for the trees right now.

(2) Not that it's a good long-term solution, but you were asking about urgent care opportunities - if you finish your PGY-1 year, pass Step 3 and get your state medical license (along with DEA number), you can moonlight and make around $40-50 an hour. You can make $2-4k a month this way.

(3) Please PM me if you'd like to discuss in private.

 

[Faebinder]

I agree with everyone who said SSRI for a month and reassess. Seriously, SSRI for a month then reassess.

 

[gasnewby]

i might clarify that SSRIs should be prescribed by your doc. please don't treat yourself.

 

[Winged Scapula]

In addition to the mostly excellent advise above, you might consider talking to your program about a leave of absence. I did it during my 4th year of surgical residency and it was the best thing I could have done for myself.

Not that it will be easy as surgical programs in particular frown upon such things, but if it means coming back renewed and refreshed and with a clarity of goals rather than just quitting, its well worth the grumbling you might get from your peers and faculty.

 

[countryboy75]

Yeah the use of anti-depressants and anti-anxiety meds by medical professionals is really not all that uncommon...so don't feel strange for doing so.

My mom is an LISW who works as a therapist under a psychiatrist and I was speaking with him one night at a get together and he said "yeah..you'd be surprised how many docs are under my care and almost all of them are on some sort of psychotropic drugs, s**t...if any body lives and works in an environment that would necessitate drug therapy doctors are sure at the top of the list"

plus ssri's/snri's have been shown to improve memory function

 

[SomedaySoon]

Thanks for all the support/advice.
I have already gone the SSRI route, I'll see about an increase.
I'm actually feeling much better now, being post-call and sick didn't help my mood. I still want to quit but am feeling positive about my future. GSurg is a great field, just not the right one for me!

I don't feel comfortable posting my program here, but a few ppl have IMed me their list and I have told them if my place is on it or not. I am happy to do that for anyone else, as well as add my unbiased opinion about other places on their lists.

If anyone else has other comments/advice/stories, please share!

 

[Faebinder]

Thanks for all the support/advice.
I have already gone the SSRI route, I'll see about an increase.
I'm actually feeling much better now, being post-call and sick didn't help my mood. I still want to quit but am feeling positive about my future. GSurg is a great field, just not the right one for me!

I don't feel comfortable posting my program here, but a few ppl have IMed me their list and I have told them if my place is on it or not. I am happy to do that for anyone else, as well as add my unbiased opinion about other places on their lists.

If anyone else has other comments/advice/stories, please share!

Check out the threads in "Internship". You aren't alone.

 

[Misterioso]

re: misery, or whatever you name is

spoken like someone who has never done one day of surgical residency. what great insight you have.

Please. I'm all but an intern. I work more hours and harder than most interns and I'd put my technical skills up against any true surgery intern (and many a PGY2) in the nation. By true intern I mean one who's an intern right out of med school, not some foreign attending who came over here and started internship from scratch. So you trying to discredit what I have to say just because I'm not an intern on paper is moot.

Besides, every year around this time a few lightweights come on here whining about wanting to quit and the token response from the peanut gallery is for them to take some antidepressants, blah, blah, blah. Nobody ever comes right out and says just because someone matched into surgery means they're necessarily right for the career.

That's why they used to have the pyramid system where they'd weed out the ones who weren't up to snuff. Now as long as they go through the motions they'll get out the other end of a surgical residency and be granted the empty title of "Chief Resident" in their final year. That title used to have meaning because it was earned instead of being handed to anyone who does the minimum to get by. So what you have are lots of residents graduating who aren't confident or competent enough to go out and operate on their own and need to do an additional fellowship to bring themselves up to speed. But hey, at least they spent a couple years in the lab and put out a nifty research paper that nobody will read.

 

[Faebinder]

Please. I'm all but an intern. I work more hours and harder than most interns and I'd put my technical skills up against any true surgery intern (and many a PGY2) in the nation. By true intern I mean one who's an intern right out of med school, not some foreign attending who came over here and started internship from scratch. So you trying to discredit what I have to say just because I'm not an intern on paper is moot.

Besides, every year around this time a few lightweights come on here whining about wanting to quit and the token response from the peanut gallery is for them to take some antidepressants, blah, blah, blah. Nobody ever comes right out and says just because someone matched into surgery means they're necessarily right for the career.

That's why they used to have the pyramid system where they'd weed out the ones who weren't up to snuff. Now as long as they go through the motions they'll get out the other end of a surgical residency and be granted the empty title of "Chief Resident" in their final year. That title used to have meaning because it was earned instead of being handed to anyone who does the minimum to get by. So what you have are lots of residents graduating who aren't confident or competent enough to go out and operate on their own and need to do an additional fellowship to bring themselves up to speed. But hey, at least they spent a couple years in the lab and put out a nifty research paper that nobody will read.

I am torn between saying you are an idiot and brilliant altogether. Congradulations, if I was a king, you would be my jester who makes insightful fun behind my arrogant ass.

Unfortunately, I do agree with the bolded part.

On the other hand, surgery needs to change it's attitude or else it will destroy itself. If we keep adding "a$$holes" to our pot, then it will just stink. You cant keep adding to the work load thinking it will get you the few more $$ you need.