IA Not Anywhere On my Records

[med818]

hey guys! a bit of an urgent question here. I received an academic sanction during my undergrad. i talked to my university recently and they said it will not ever appear on my
official transcript or any records, and that they could only ever disclose that information with my permission. The only situation in which that would happen is if a med school specifically asked if I’ve ever had an institutional action taken against me, and they would expect my university to fill in yes or no with their official letterhead. Even in this case, I would have to bring this question to my university and consent them to answer - the med school cannot get that information from my university themselves. My university also told me that only some american medical schools specifically ask this question, not all. And if they do ask this question, then couldn’t I just withdraw my application at that point and cite an external reason for withdrawing it? I’d appreciate any sort of advice

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[Mr.Smile12]

Read

Legal Matters: Institutional Action Basics - SDN

The Student Doctor Network provides free tools, resources, and advising services to help students become health professionals.

www.studentdoctor.net

Reporting an Institutional Action - SDN

The Student Doctor Network provides free tools, resources, and advising services to help students become health professionals.

www.studentdoctor.net

 

[LizzyM]

You have experienced an institutional action. AMCAS requires that you disclose this on the application. You are asking us if it is okay to falsify your AMCAS application. Use your critical thinking skills. How do you think actual adcom members will respond?

 

[triedtowalk]

I’m applying this upcoming cycle so take this with a grain of salt, but I’m pretty sure the AMCAS primary asks about IAs, so you’d have to report it regardless of individual schools’ policies

 

[gyngyn]

Institutional Action:
If you were ever the recipient of any institutional action by any college or medical school for unacceptable
academic performance or conduct violation, you must answer Yes to the question about institutional action,
even if such action did not interrupt your enrollment or require you to withdraw. Furthermore, select Yes
even if the action does not appear on, or has been deleted or expunged from, your official transcripts as a
consequence of institutional policy or personal petition. Examples of institutional actions include, but are not
limited to, academic probation, academic standing warnings, suspension, residence hall policy violations,
and ethics policy violations.

https://students-residents.aamc.org/media/11616/download

Bolding is mine.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Agree with others-- you are asking whether or not you would get caught, not whether or not you are obligated to disclose per AMCAS policy. You should reply honestly.

 

[Goro]

OP, I have seen people get rejected at our school because they omitted mention of an IA, but were outed by LOR writers.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Just be honest.

Lying is an unforgivable sin in medicine. Stuff like this is how people get kicked out of residency. There's a lot of BS in this process, but requiring people to be truthful isn't part of that.

 

[candbgirl]

An unethical doctor, a doctor who lies or at the very least twists the truth, isn’t a road map for success..Find a new advisor.
Tell us about your IiA. It might be something that ADCOMS will over look or at least laugh about.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

hey guys! a bit of an urgent question here. I received an academic sanction during my undergrad. i talked to my university recently and they said it will not ever appear on my
official transcript or any records, and that they could only ever disclose that information with my permission. The only situation in which that would happen is if a med school specifically asked if I’ve ever had an institutional action taken against me, and they would expect my university to fill in yes or no with their official letterhead. Even in this case, I would have to bring this question to my university and consent them to answer - the med school cannot get that information from my university themselves. My university also told me that only some american medical schools specifically ask this question, not all. And if they do ask this question, then couldn’t I just withdraw my application at that point and cite an external reason for withdrawing it? I’d appreciate any sort of advice

I had to take time to read through this post.

First, just disclose that you had an academic sanction. Work with your student conduct office to find the precise terminology about what part of the student code you violated, the sanction, and the consequences.

Once you are admitted, the medical school has a right to know your academic history; every clinical site wants your background check. As a condition of enrollment, you must waive your FERPA rights so that the medical school can get those disciplinary records (as you also have to give your medical records to student health and thus waive your HIPAA rights). If you don't do this, your offer could be rescinded as you would be non compliant with the enrollment agreement.

Of course, how medical schools can compel this information is a legal question outside my scope. However by using AMCAS, you signed on to their Code of Conduct where you agree to disclose what is requested of you honestly. (I am not quoting their Code.)

Expectations of professionalism during the medical school admissions process

Understanding the Application and Acceptance Protocols are important as you apply to medical school.

students-residents.aamc.org

 

[med818]

I had to take time to read through this post.

First, just disclose that you had an academic sanction. Work with your student conduct office to find the precise terminology about what part of the student code you violated, the sanction, and the consequences.

Once you are admitted, the medical school has a right to know your academic history; every clinical site wants your background check. As a condition of enrollment, you must waive your FERPA rights so that the medical school can get those disciplinary records (as you also have to give your medical records to student health and thus waive your HIPAA rights). If you don't do this, your offer could be rescinded as you would be non compliant with the enrollment agreement.

Of course, how medical schools can compel this information is a legal question outside my scope. However by using AMCAS, you signed on to their Code of Conduct where you agree to disclose what is requested of you honestly. (I am not quoting their Code.)

hi! aren’t FERPA rights basically that a student can view their own record, and waiving it essentially means that as a student, you won’t be able to access your own record, primarily for LOR? What does that have to do with any med school seeing your past institution’s personal records?

 

[med818]

OP, I have seen people get rejected at our school because they omitted mention of an IA, but were outed by LOR writers.

Hi! My point is that none of my LOR know about this or will be writing about it. I’ve triple checked with my school, the only way med schools would ever find out about this is if they ask me to get a verified paper from my home institution verifying that I do not have any academic sanctions, which I of course couldn’t do because I do have one. That being said, my university basically said that they have rarely ever seen an american medical school ever want that information from the applicant’s home institution. As per my university, this isn’t on my record anywhere that a medical school could see, a medical school cannot reach out to them and ever get that information, the only way a medical school could get that information is if they ask me, which my university said they rarely ever do. In that case, I could simply withdraw my application and cite other reasons. I know that people look down on this and say you should have to be truthful about wrong things you’ve done in the past, but in my situation, I did not intentionally do anything. I was sexually assaulted in undergrad by someone I knew, and the person that did it also took files off my computer (including lab reports I had submitted) and resubmitted them for their own class. As a result, they obviously got an academic sanction and so did I, because I had no proof those files were stolen from me - but I never shared them because I know that’s wrong. As such, I feel really worried about my dreams of medical school being deterred over something I didn’t even do. I hope maybe that clarifies things!!

 

[Mr.Smile12]

hi! aren’t FERPA rights basically that a student can view their own record, and waiving it essentially means that as a student, you won’t be able to access your own record, primarily for LOR? What does that have to do with any med school seeing your past institution’s personal records?

Sort of.

FERPA gives students the rights to review and amend their own academic records. This means that when it comes to letters of recommendation, professors cannot comment on your grades or academic performance unless you waive your FERPA rights. (Any school administrator can just acknowledge you were enrolled.) This would of course make any professor LOR useless if they cannot tell schools why you would be prepared for medical school.

This means that when you waive your rights, you promise confidentiality that you will not inspect or ask for amendments to the academic-related contents of their letters of recommendation. This allows the references to provide more of an evaluation of your candidacy instead of a simple "med818 was enrolled in my class." Otherwise, you could exert influence to have your reference write you a glowing letter because you asked for those changes. Without that attestation of confidentiality, the letter is useless.

Your school should make sure that medical schools' requests to access your disciplinary record should come with a FERPA waiver form. (See Emory's form https://conduct.emory.edu/_includes/documents/FERPA_Release_Form-2022.pdf ). Each student conduct office likely has a policy about how long such records are kept or only gives details at a specific offense level (see Brown).

Why is this important? Basically, there is literature that shows a relationship between professionalism lapses in medical school with professionalism lapses in residency and in practice. When made public, these lapses are highly damaging to the school.

Do Professionalism Lapses in Medical School Predict Problems in Residency and Clinical Practice? - PubMed

Students with professionalism lapses in medical school are significantly more likely to experience professionalism-related problems during residency and practice, although other factors may also play an important predictive role.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Student and faculty perceptions: appropriate consequences of lapses in academic integrity in health sciences education - BMC Medical Education

Background A breadth of evidence supports that academic dishonesty is prevalent among higher education students, including students in health sciences educational programs. Research suggest individuals who engage in academic dishonesty may continue to exhibit unethical behaviors in professional...

bmcmededuc.biomedcentral.com

Consequently, enrollment agreements and the onboarding process will compel incoming students to release their student conduct records, their immunization and health records (with possible drug testing), and a background check to assure the other stakeholders that medical students will work with or serve that they do not have enough evidence that could suggest difficulty in maintaining the integrity of the profession or the safety of the public. Failure to comply means your offer will be rescinded.

By the way, I'm not sure you won't get a bill for unpaid tuition. Your enrollment deposit surely will be gone.

 

[med818]

Sort of.

FERPA gives students the rights to review and amend their own academic records. This means that when it comes to letters of recommendation, professors cannot comment on your grades or academic performance unless you waive your FERPA rights. (Any school administrator can just acknowledge you were enrolled.) This would of course make any professor LOR useless if they cannot tell schools why you would be prepared for medical school.

This means that when you waive your rights, you promise confidentiality that you will not inspect or ask for amendments to the academic-related contents of their letters of recommendation. This allows the references to provide more of an evaluation of your candidacy instead of a simple "med818 was enrolled in my class." Otherwise, you could exert influence to have your reference write you a glowing letter because you asked for those changes. Without that attestation of confidentiality, the letter is useless.

Your school should make sure that medical schools' requests to access your disciplinary record should come with a FERPA waiver form. (See Emory's form https://conduct.emory.edu/_includes/documents/FERPA_Release_Form-2022.pdf ). Each student conduct office likely has a policy about how long such records are kept or only gives details at a specific offense level (see Brown).

Why is this important? Basically, there is literature that shows a relationship between professionalism lapses in medical school with professionalism lapses in residency and in practice. When made public, these lapses are highly damaging to the school.

Do Professionalism Lapses in Medical School Predict Problems in Residency and Clinical Practice? - PubMed

Students with professionalism lapses in medical school are significantly more likely to experience professionalism-related problems during residency and practice, although other factors may also play an important predictive role.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Student and faculty perceptions: appropriate consequences of lapses in academic integrity in health sciences education - BMC Medical Education

Background A breadth of evidence supports that academic dishonesty is prevalent among higher education students, including students in health sciences educational programs. Research suggest individuals who engage in academic dishonesty may continue to exhibit unethical behaviors in professional...

bmcmededuc.biomedcentral.com

Consequently, enrollment agreements and the onboarding process will compel incoming students to release their student conduct records, their immunization and health records (with possible drug testing), and a background check to assure the other stakeholders that medical students will work with or serve that they do not have enough evidence that could suggest difficulty in maintaining the integrity of the profession or the safety of the public. Failure to comply means your offer will be rescinded.

By the way, I'm not sure you won't get a bill for unpaid tuition. Your enrollment deposit surely will be gone.

Hi! Sorry I’m still a little bit confused, I don’t fully understand. How would waiving my rights to FERPA mean that med schools could see that I have this academic sanction? To be clear, my school does not have a ‘disciplinary record.’ This sanction is only in their working transcript, which only my university’s employees with special access can see. I’m sorry, could you re-explain how waiving my rights to FERPA mean medical schools could see this sanction? What exactly does saving those rights mean then?

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Hi! Sorry I’m still a little bit confused, I don’t fully understand. How would waiving my rights to FERPA mean that med schools could see that I have this academic sanction? To be clear, my school does not have a ‘disciplinary record.’ This sanction is only in their working transcript, which only my university’s employees with special access can see. I’m sorry, could you re-explain how waiving my rights to FERPA mean medical schools could see this sanction? What exactly does saving those rights mean then?

I explained it in my response above. Retaining your rights means you do not authorize the school to disclose anything about your academic or disciplinary performance. Your home school can only affirm that you were enrolled at their institution. The medical school wants an official attestation of your conduct record which requires a FERPA waiver so that the school can disclose the record of that sanction. Ask your student conduct office if they report this. As I mentioned, many offices have policies in place about what they would report, and they may not confirm your sanction to the medical school. I don't work in your student conduct office, and I can't represent every medical school about their reaction to such disclosures.

Make it simple for yourself: we medical school admins in the admissions office hate surprises. You need to be honest in describing what you did and how it is documented by your school in your application. Should you be admitted, the school requests your records. You either allow your student conduct office to share that documentation (FERPA waiver) or not (no FERPA waiver). If you do not, your offer is rescinded as per your enrollment agreement.

Believe me, I was confused by your question:

And if they do ask this question, then couldn’t I just withdraw my application at that point and cite an external reason for withdrawing it? I’d appreciate any sort of advice

They ask this question on AMCAS, so you might as well consider another career path if you cannot answer this question honestly. We showed you that language earlier in this thread. Each school may also ask for a similar attestation in their secondaries. They could ask you again as a condition of your enrollment to the school. Yes, you can get asked as many as three times (maybe more) from the school where you intend to enroll.

I do not believe the answer box to the IA yes/no question is amendable after you press the submit button.

 

[med818]

I explained it in my response above. Retaining your rights means you do not authorize the school to disclose anything about your academic or disciplinary performance. Your home school can only affirm that you were enrolled at their institution. The medical school wants an official attestation of your conduct record which requires a FERPA waiver so that the school can disclose the record of that sanction. Ask your student conduct office if they report this. As I mentioned, many offices have policies in place about what they would report, and they may not confirm your sanction to the medical school. I don't work in your student conduct office, and I can't represent every medical school about their reaction to such disclosures.

Make it simple for yourself: we medical school admins in the admissions office hate surprises. You need to be honest in describing what you did and how it is documented by your school in your application. Should you be admitted, the school requests your records. You either allow your student conduct office to share that documentation (FERPA waiver) or not (no FERPA waiver). If you do not, your offer is rescinded as per your enrollment agreement.

Believe me, I was confused by your question:

They ask this question on AMCAS, so you might as well consider another career path if you cannot answer this question honestly. We showed you that language earlier in this thread. Each school may also ask for a similar attestation in their secondaries. They could ask you again as a condition of your enrollment to the school. Yes, you can get asked as many as three times (maybe more) from the school where you intend to enroll.

I do not believe the answer box to the IA yes/no question is amendable after you press the submit button.

Okay, thank you for the clarification. I have two follow up questions. One is that, when you sign the FERPA waiver and the med school reaches out to your home institution, what specifically do they ask for? As in, do they ask specifically for any disciplinary actions/sanctions, or just for the standard student record (as in, official transcripts)? My second question is, does every med school ask you to sign the FERPA waiver and also reach out to your university to ask for these records? Thank you

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Okay, thank you for the clarification. I have two follow up questions. One is that, when you sign the FERPA waiver and the med school reaches out to your home institution, what specifically do they ask for? As in, do they ask specifically for any disciplinary actions/sanctions, or just for the standard student record (as in, official transcripts)? My second question is, does every med school ask you to sign the FERPA waiver and also reach out to your university to ask for these records? Thank you

As shown by my examples and clarifying:

• the medical school requires you to release your student conduct records as a condition of admission. They could request this information directly (East Carolina University example) if it is allowed by the student conduct office or records office (Disciplinary Records Requests/Dean of Students Certifications - Dean of Students Office - Grand Valley State University).
• the home university requires you to waive your FERPA rights so those disciplinary records could be released, and they will release information within their policies.

In addition:

• You must request an official final transcript from your home school. You likely have to sign a FERPA waiver as part of your request to the registrar in order for your transcript to be released. (This is also likely included in transcript request and matching forms to be sent to AMCAS.)
• The registrar may redact information as you request or as allowed by policy (noting SSN's were once fully disclosed but are not anymore).

Every medical school should ask for this information, and you need to waive your FERPA rights to allow for that data to be delivered. This is a requirement of FERPA/federal law and may be subject to additional state laws.

 

[Nontrad_FL_LGBT]

Bro just be honest, they don't care unless it was a crime or you blatantly cheated in your last semester, in which case you prob shouldn't be a doctor anyway. Stop trying to cover up whatever weird stupid thing you're hiding and have some integrity.

 

[LunaOri]

Hi! My point is that none of my LOR know about this or will be writing about it. I’ve triple checked with my school, the only way med schools would ever find out about this is if they ask me to get a verified paper from my home institution verifying that I do not have any academic sanctions, which I of course couldn’t do because I do have one. That being said, my university basically said that they have rarely ever seen an american medical school ever want that information from the applicant’s home institution. As per my university, this isn’t on my record anywhere that a medical school could see, a medical school cannot reach out to them and ever get that information, the only way a medical school could get that information is if they ask me, which my university said they rarely ever do. In that case, I could simply withdraw my application and cite other reasons. I know that people look down on this and say you should have to be truthful about wrong things you’ve done in the past, but in my situation, I did not intentionally do anything. I was sexually assaulted in undergrad by someone I knew, and the person that did it also took files off my computer (including lab reports I had submitted) and resubmitted them for their own class. As a result, they obviously got an academic sanction and so did I, because I had no proof those files were stolen from me - but I never shared them because I know that’s wrong. As such, I feel really worried about my dreams of medical school being deterred over something I didn’t even do. I hope maybe that clarifies things!!

So you are willing to lie to hide an IA that most likely would have no effect on your application?

 

[camt_spel]

Hi! My point is that none of my LOR know about this or will be writing about it. I’ve triple checked with my school, the only way med schools would ever find out about this is if they ask me to get a verified paper from my home institution verifying that I do not have any academic sanctions, which I of course couldn’t do because I do have one. That being said, my university basically said that they have rarely ever seen an american medical school ever want that information from the applicant’s home institution. As per my university, this isn’t on my record anywhere that a medical school could see, a medical school cannot reach out to them and ever get that information, the only way a medical school could get that information is if they ask me, which my university said they rarely ever do. In that case, I could simply withdraw my application and cite other reasons. I know that people look down on this and say you should have to be truthful about wrong things you’ve done in the past, but in my situation, I did not intentionally do anything. I was sexually assaulted in undergrad by someone I knew, and the person that did it also took files off my computer (including lab reports I had submitted) and resubmitted them for their own class. As a result, they obviously got an academic sanction and so did I, because I had no proof those files were stolen from me - but I never shared them because I know that’s wrong. As such, I feel really worried about my dreams of medical school being deterred over something I didn’t even do. I hope maybe that clarifies things!!

My med school had me send a dean certification form to each undergrad university I attended verifying if any IA’s are present.

You would withdraw your application before explaining to your medical school what happened?

 

[LizzyM]

FERPA does a few things. One: it makes your school records open for your inspection. That is meant to assure that you know what is in your record and can request a correction if something is in error.
Two: It affords you confidentiality of your records. School officials, faculty and staff aren't permitted to release information about you except directory information, and, for athletes, sometimes height and weight information that appears on a team roster.

When you are asked to releases your records to another school, or to AMCAS, etc, you are releasing the school from the obligation they have to keep your records confidential. You are waiving your rights under FERPA. When you ask someone at the university for a letter of recommendation you are waiving your right to read the letter which would otherwise be your right as such a letter becomes part of your school record. You also give permission for the faculty member to release information about you (e.g. grades, etc) that would otherwise be confidential.

Once you apply, your records will be out there. You will have signed that your AMCAS was complete and accurate. If you are found to have lied when you endorsed that statement, it is GAME OVER.

Be up front. Tell your story. If you were a victim, tell the story and convince the adcom of the fact. Trying to hide it is dishonest and could come back to bite you in a way that could be lethal in your attempt to be admitted to medical school.

 

[RunnerDad]

Of course, how medical schools can compel this information is a legal question outside my scope. However by using AMCAS, you signed on to their Code of Conduct where you agree to disclose what is requested of you honestly. (I am not quoting their Code.)

Higher ed lawyer here. Just in case OP is considering the unwise option of mounting a legal challenge, the legal answer to this is that applying to medical school is a privilege, not a right, and individuals who wish to attend medical school are volunteering to waive FERPA in order to be considered for admission. It's considered voluntary because students can choose not to waive if they feel that keeping their educational (including disciplinary) records is more important than going to med school. As you pointed out, once the person signs onto AMCAS's Code of Conduct, it's a legal contract that must be performed if the person wants their application to continue to be considered, so really, for OP the practical answer is just what you said -- answer truthfully, or embark on a different advanced education and career.

 

[SpicyHotSauce]

Even if it does not appear on your transcript, you should definitely report it on AMCAS as instructed on the AMCAS application guide (https://students-residents.aamc.org/media/11616/download , page 19):

"Furthermore, select Yes even if the action does not appear on, or has been deleted or expunged from, your official transcripts as a consequence of institutional policy or personal petition. Examples of institutional actions include, but are not limited to, academic probation, academic standing warnings, suspension, residence hall policy violations, and ethics policy violations.

Failure to provide an accurate answer to the question about institutional action or, if applicable, failure to complete the form provided by the school will result in an investigation. The AMCAS program will report institutional actions listed on your transcript, regardless of whether you report them on your application"

I read your other comment, and I am so sorry you went through that. I honestly don't blame you one bit. You were at the wrong place and at the wrong time; I would hope someone would show me kindness and have mercy if I had been through something similar.

It seems like your situation is applicable to what I quoted above. I don't know what is the consequence of breaking this.

I would mention it, and be honest about it and not risk anything. Depending on the way you write about it (and how long ago it occurred), I hope the person reviewing your file will show you the kindness and mercy you deserve. People on here and on reddit post about IA's that are a lot more concerning than this.