Icahn vs UCSF vs Duke vs GT

[rizzologist]

Hey, got a bunch of decisions back recently and wanted to come here for some comparison's between schools and get an outside perspective. For context I'm an aspiring child neurologist from the d.c. area iffy about weighing the benefits between going to a top school far away or staying in the area since i went to undergrad far from home and have been happy having my support system during my gap year.

Icahn
Pros
- i love their focus on application of technology in medicine, worked in comp bio and although I wouldn't want to do that type of research I think the applications are really cool.
- like some other schools on here really research focused, but it's super integrated into the curriculum, like protected time
- good vibes student wellness wise
-Mt sinai residencies seem very sought after, could take advantage of this system
-no undergrad so all student resources goes towards grad students
- 2 hours from home

Cons
- living in a dorm and sharing a bathroom....nyc housing in general though
- 2 years of preclinical
- heard about a nursing strike and bad working conditions which makes me question how the hospital realllly values staff/med students and the resources/support ill receive

UCSF
Pros
- Ranking, seems like id have some good opportunities here
- I really align with their social justice/health equity mission the touted in the interview
- Student wellness seems through the roof from anecdotal conversations with students
- diverse class
- I like SF as a concept, beautiful and the weather is at a sweetspot for my taste
- pass fail even through clerkships (i feel like this doesnt even sound real)

Cons
- Extremely far from home
- Extremely expensive (housing and other)

Georgetown
pros
- close to support system
- beautiful area
- aligned with service message, and the overall idea of cura personalis
- Health policy exposure through tracks
- proximity to NIH for research opportunities during ms1 or research year
- a match list that looks really good considering it's ranking
- I'm very set on working in underserved populations in D.C. as a resident/physician and would like to build my network here

cons
-not a diverse area, campus, or medical school class
-expensive
- relatively low ranking

Duke
Pros
- Really large and respected clinical research center
- god tier match list
- I like the idea of a school with a lively campus and many different types of grad students
- free third year for research/dual degree
- Well respected in and out of medicine

Cons
- Bad interview process imo,
- only urm in both info session and interview day
- not much of a health advocacy/equity focus, esp compared to some other schools.
- Not a fan of durham, weather and as a city

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[deleted1119806]

Awesome choices and awesome username

Right off the bat, your goals and pros/cons align best with Georgetown, since you want to practice and settle down there with your support system. I’m sure you know, there is a gap in prestige between GT and Icahn/Duke/UCSF (especially the last two), but that shouldn’t matter too much because you already know your future interests, so you can work and network accordingly.

Clearly you will be happy in D.C. and at GT, but note that Duke/UCSF child neurology departments will provide greater opportunity, but since you already know you want to be in D.C., seems like GT (can maybe use resources of GW’s child neurology department which is top tier) objectively makes sense for you.

Sinai may fit the bill, as it’s not too far from D.C.. but note it is slightly overshadowed by NYP and NYU Langone in the city and when it comes to child neurology, there is no significant difference when compared to GT

 

[deleted1065184]

Sounds like, for you, it's between UCSF and Georgetown. You should take some time and weigh how important it is to go to a powerhouse institution with a very diverse student body on the other side of the country vs respected (but not powerhouse) institution with non-diverse student body but all of your support system around.

You clearly don't *need* your support system nearby to thrive, seeing as you got into multiple schools while doing college far from home. But it'd def make life easier. Peds neuro is not particularly competitive, so you'd match fine from either spot.

One question I have is about cost...which is cheaper?

As an aside, I'm also at a school that's pass/fail in clerkships and it's every bitnas nice as you're imagining lol

 

[BritainKittenMittens]

I'd choose between UCSF and Duke. P/F clerkship years are amazing. I believe Duke's 3rd year gives you a lot of flexibility to explore your passions.

 

[GoldLoaf]

My friend is in a similar position and applied to GT specifically because some of the child neurology faculty are so phenomenal! If you like the area, too, you’ll be able to match there just as well - if not better than - anyone from “higher ranked” programs. Seems like that one makes most sense for you, but luckily you can’t go wrong!

 

[chilly_md]

What are the approximate costs of each school?

Duke seems the best as they would allow you a short flight home during breaks compared to UCSF.

 

[m1redsox]

As someone from the bay area doing med school in NC, you should choose Duke. Durham is cheaper, more convenient (I despise SF traffic), and closer to home.

With that said, prestige really only matters if you want to do a surgical sub, derm, or academics/research. If you have no interest in those, sounds like GT is a great option for you.

 

[rizzologist]

As someone from the bay area doing med school in NC, you should choose Duke. Durham is cheaper, more convenient (I despise SF traffic), and closer to home.

With that said, prestige really only matters if you want to do a surgical sub, derm, or academics/research. If you have no interest in those, sounds like GT is a great option for you.

Sounds like, for you, it's between UCSF and Georgetown. You should take some time and weigh how important it is to go to a powerhouse institution with a very diverse student body on the other side of the country vs respected (but not powerhouse) institution with non-diverse student body but all of your support system around.

You clearly don't *need* your support system nearby to thrive, seeing as you got into multiple schools while doing college far from home. But it'd def make life easier. Peds neuro is not particularly competitive, so you'd match fine from either spot.

One question I have is about cost...which is cheaper?

As an aside, I'm also at a school that's pass/fail in clerkships and it's every bitnas nice as you're imagining lol

Problem is I am interested in research though, and I love peds and I love neurosience/neurology but I want to keep my speciality options open so I wonder if going for prestige would be more helpful if I have a career pivot in the future.

 

[rizzologist]

Sounds like, for you, it's between UCSF and Georgetown. You should take some time and weigh how important it is to go to a powerhouse institution with a very diverse student body on the other side of the country vs respected (but not powerhouse) institution with non-diverse student body but all of your support system around.

You clearly don't *need* your support system nearby to thrive, seeing as you got into multiple schools while doing college far from home. But it'd def make life easier. Peds neuro is not particularly competitive, so you'd match fine from either spot.

One question I have is about cost...which is cheaper?

As an aside, I'm also at a school that's pass/fail in clerkships and it's every bitnas nice as you're imagining lol

No official financial aid but spoke to a dean at georgetown who literally admitted they don't give out much aid lol. And UCSF seems generous with need based aid which im hopeful for as a low income student.

 

[deleted1065184]

No official financial aid but spoke to a dean at georgetown who literally admitted they don't give out much aid lol. And UCSF seems generous with need based aid which im hopeful for as a low income student.

Well assuming UCSF gives more aid, I'd go with them based on what you've told us. Others keep mentioning Duke, but that's clearly based on what they'd do and not what you've written. From reading what you wrote, Duke is not a viable option for you unless they offer a full ride or something.

 

[notmedicaladvice]

You really can't underscore the importance of having your support system during medical school and since child neuro isn't super competitive, it sounds like Georgetown is where you'd be happiest

 

[m1redsox]

Well assuming UCSF gives more aid, I'd go with them based on what you've told us. Others keep mentioning Duke, but that's clearly based on what they'd do and not what you've written. From reading what you wrote, Duke is not a viable option for you unless they offer a full ride or something.

Going to disagree with this. The written cons for Duke were regarding the interview day, the weather, and health equity curriculum, which I would argue are pretty minimal parts of a full medical school experience. On top of that, I would actually argue that since Duke is in the South, and Duke is the largest, best hospital within hundreds of miles, OP will actually have the most access to the African American URM community and health equity efforts focused on them. In terms of the weather, it's no San Francisco, but I really enjoy NC weather (yes, this is based on my preferences). It doesn't have the humidity that the rest of the south does, and it doesn't have the snow that the North does. In that sense, Durham weather ranks #2 for me on OP's list of 4 programs.

I would argue that Duke is the most viable because of the combination of these written preferences:
- Prestige (UCSF >/= Duke > Icahn > GT)
- Match history (UCSF >/= Duke > Icahn > GT)
- Research (Duke - because of the full research year in curriculum >/= UCSF > Icahn > GT)
- Cost of living (Duke > GT > Icahn = UCSF)
- Close to home (GT > Icahn > Duke >> UCSF)

If UCSF offers OP financial aid, that would certainly change things and make the decision less clear (IMO), but I would not recommend moving across the country from family for a marginal prestige and curriculum difference in an area with double the cost of living without the additional financial aid.

 

[GoldLoaf]

Going to disagree with this. The written cons for Duke were regarding the interview day, the weather, and health equity curriculum, which I would argue are pretty minimal parts of a full medical school experience. On top of that, I would actually argue that since Duke is in the South, and Duke is the largest, best hospital within hundreds of miles, OP will actually have the most access to the African American URM community and health equity efforts focused on them. In terms of the weather, it's no San Francisco, but I really enjoy NC weather (yes, this is based on my preferences). It doesn't have the humidity that the rest of the south does, and it doesn't have the snow that the North does. In that sense, Durham weather ranks #2 for me on OP's list of 4 programs.

I would argue that Duke is the most viable because of the combination of these written preferences:
- Prestige (UCSF >/= Duke > Icahn > GT)
- Match history (UCSF >/= Duke > Icahn > GT)
- Research (Duke - because of the full research year in curriculum >/= UCSF > Icahn > GT)
- Cost of living (Duke > GT > Icahn = UCSF)
- Close to home (GT > Icahn > Duke >> UCSF)

If UCSF offers OP financial aid, that would certainly change things and make the decision less clear (IMO), but I would not recommend moving across the country from family for a marginal prestige and curriculum difference in an area with double the cost of living without the additional financial aid.

Agreed to some extent but can’t forget Duke rotates at their own sites. If you want anything like a diverse patient population in NC, they’re all going to UNC. GT may not have quite as much research, but it’s clearly not holding back students based on the match list, and they do get a nice variety of clinical training sites with diverse patients. Icahn would also serve a much more diverse group at their sites and has stellar research. Can’t speak as much for UCSF.

 

[BritainKittenMittens]

Agreed to some extent but can’t forget Duke rotates at their own sites. If you want anything like a diverse patient population in NC, they’re all going to UNC. GT may not have quite as much research, but it’s clearly not holding back students based on the match list, and they do get a nice variety of clinical training sites with diverse patients. Icahn would also serve a much more diverse group at their sites and has stellar research. Can’t speak as much for UCSF.

I don't think this is a big problem. Duke has excellent enough residencies and a strong health system where your rotations will provide good education, and it's only a year right? You have 3rd and 4th year to do a bunch of away rotations if you want different experiences with different population groups. Spend part of 3rd year for global missions trips if you want.

My person view, but P/F clerkships are revolutionary inasmuch as P/F pre-clinical was. I think it's between UCSF and Duke. If costs are the same, I'd personally pick Duke, hammer out 1st and 2nd year, and then go somewhere else 3rd year and maybe 4th year if they let you. I don't know Duke's curriculum in detail, but I'm assuming they have a lot of flexibility for location after 2nd year?

 

[m1redsox]

Agreed to some extent but can’t forget Duke rotates at their own sites. If you want anything like a diverse patient population in NC, they’re all going to UNC. GT may not have quite as much research, but it’s clearly not holding back students based on the match list, and they do get a nice variety of clinical training sites with diverse patients. Icahn would also serve a much more diverse group at their sites and has stellar research. Can’t speak as much for UCSF.

What gives you the idea that UNC gets a more diverse patient population? I think that Duke students rotating at their own sites is a massive pro for health equity rather than a con. Duke hospital is the safety net for a massive region of underserved patients who require hyperspecialized care. Not to mention Durham itself is a larger city with an underserved population while Chapel Hill is more of a college town.

 

[deleted1095841]

Would strongly recommend UCSF, since it's got by far the strongest neuro research community of all the schools, and you have access to a diverse population to serve. But if you want to be near home, Georgetown is a solid option. I wouldn't recommend the two other schools based on what you've posted.

 

[BritainKittenMittens]

Agreed to some extent but can’t forget Duke rotates at their own sites. If you want anything like a diverse patient population in NC, they’re all going to UNC. GT may not have quite as much research, but it’s clearly not holding back students based on the match list, and they do get a nice variety of clinical training sites with diverse patients. Icahn would also serve a much more diverse group at their sites and has stellar research. Can’t speak as much for UCSF.

My friend is in a similar position and applied to GT specifically because some of the child neurology faculty are so phenomenal! If you like the area, too, you’ll be able to match there just as well - if not better than - anyone from “higher ranked” programs. Seems like that one makes most sense for you, but luckily you can’t go wrong!

I was wondering why you were bashing so much on Duke and suggesting OP go other places and it looks like you applied to Duke 2022-2023 Duke
Did you get in? You don't happen to be WL or waiting on an A and are trying to discourage people from going to Duke so you'd have a better chance would you?
Might be the conspiracy theorist in me, but this used to be a big thing a few years back, a lot of people seemed to create fack accounts to bash certain schools and there was a clear pattern because they were hoping to get off the WL. Not saying this is the case here, but a reminder to everyone that this does happen and you should take things people say with a grain of salt.

 

[deleted1065184]

Going to disagree with this. The written cons for Duke were regarding the interview day, the weather, and health equity curriculum, which I would argue are pretty minimal parts of a full medical school experience. On top of that, I would actually argue that since Duke is in the South, and Duke is the largest, best hospital within hundreds of miles, OP will actually have the most access to the African American URM community and health equity efforts focused on them. In terms of the weather, it's no San Francisco, but I really enjoy NC weather (yes, this is based on my preferences). It doesn't have the humidity that the rest of the south does, and it doesn't have the snow that the North does. In that sense, Durham weather ranks #2 for me on OP's list of 4 programs.

I would argue that Duke is the most viable because of the combination of these written preferences:
- Prestige (UCSF >/= Duke > Icahn > GT)
- Match history (UCSF >/= Duke > Icahn > GT)
- Research (Duke - because of the full research year in curriculum >/= UCSF > Icahn > GT)
- Cost of living (Duke > GT > Icahn = UCSF)
- Close to home (GT > Icahn > Duke >> UCSF)

If UCSF offers OP financial aid, that would certainly change things and make the decision less clear (IMO), but I would not recommend moving across the country from family for a marginal prestige and curriculum difference in an area with double the cost of living without the additional financial aid.

Sounds like you're still basing your advice on what you'd do. OP said they don't like the city, weather, and lack of health advocacy/equity work. Those might be "minimal" factors to you, but they clearly are not to OP. I'm URM, from the South, and have a lot of family in NC, so I'd personally probably choose Duke (all things being equal).

But I am not OP, and it's pretty clear imo that OP is not interested I Duke. You keep talking about how factors rank for you. What aren't you understanding about the fact that your personal desires aren't that relevant in OP's decision?

UCSF and Duke certainly have more prestige, but OP could definitely become a child neurologist from any of these schools. If very interested in research, UCSF and Duke have the strongest neuro research. UCSF seems like the move for me (esp since they give more financial aid than Georgetown) unless OP really wants to be near family/friends for med school.

 

[rizzologist]

I was wondering why you were bashing so much on Duke and suggesting OP go other places and it looks like you applied to Duke 2022-2023 Duke
Did you get in? You don't happen to be WL or waiting on an A and are trying to discourage people from going to Duke so you'd have a better chance would you?
Might be the conspiracy theorist in me, but this used to be a big thing a few years back, a lot of people seemed to create fack accounts to bash certain schools and there was a clear pattern because they were hoping to get off the WL. Not saying this is the case here, but a reminder to everyone that this does happen and you should take things people say with a grain of salt.

oof i didnt even realize this as a possibility ... im alr a paranoid person idk how im meant to take this whole thread now lmaoo

 

[rizzologist]

Sounds like you're still basing your advice on what you'd do. OP said they don't like the city, weather, and lack of health advocacy/equity work. Those might be "minimal" factors to you, but they clearly are not to OP. I'm URM, from the South, and have a lot of family in NC, so I'd personally probably choose Duke (all things being equal).

But I am not OP, and it's pretty clear imo that OP is not interested I Duke. You keep talking about how factors rank for you. What aren't you understanding about the fact that your personal desires aren't that relevant in OP's decision?

UCSF and Duke certainly have more prestige, but OP could definitely become a child neurologist from any of these schools. If very interested in research, UCSF and Duke have the strongest neuro research. UCSF seems like the move for me (esp since they give more financial aid than Georgetown) unless OP really wants to be near family/friends for med school.

are you going to school in nc, id be curious to get your opinion on living there and going to school. and to clarify the earlier comment I dont like the city simply because its not very walkable and a few anecdotes from students about their lifestyle. I am leaning towards a larger city just out of preference. I plan on going to second look so I'll get a more nuanced view of durham then but for now my perspective on that is just based on wanting to go to school in a major city.

 

[deleted1065184]

are you going to school in nc, id be curious to get your opinion on living there and going to school. and to clarify the earlier comment I dont like the city simply because its not very walkable and a few anecdotes from students about their lifestyle. I am leaning towards a larger city just out of preference. I plan on going to second look so I'll get a more nuanced view of durham then but for now my perspective on that is just based on wanting to go to school in a major city.

No I don't, but I've spent quite a bit of time in NC (including Raleigh/Durham area) due to family all over NC. I personally really like the area and it's towards the top of my list as a place to settle down in after completing training. Great cost of living, nice weather (imo), diverse area, plenty of stuff to do, easy access to nature, and not too urban.

You're right that it's not very walkable, as is the case with virtually all the South. If walkability and being in a major city are big factors, UCSF sounds like the move. Definitely go to the second look, because if you end up liking the city more than you expected, it may be a good move considering it's much closer to DC than SF.

However, it remains true that UCSF has a much more diverse student body than Duke, and a much stronger and openly stated focus on health equity and advocacy. Durham and SF are about equal wrt ethnic diversity, just flip the proportion of Asian and Black populations. You'll get great training at both, ofc. Would strongly suggest revisiting these choices after you've received financial aid packages and finished your second look(s).

 

[GoldLoaf]

I was wondering why you were bashing so much on Duke and suggesting OP go other places and it looks like you applied to Duke 2022-2023 Duke
Did you get in? You don't happen to be WL or waiting on an A and are trying to discourage people from going to Duke so you'd have a better chance would you?
Might be the conspiracy theorist in me, but this used to be a big thing a few years back, a lot of people seemed to create fack accounts to bash certain schools and there was a clear pattern because they were hoping to get off the WL. Not saying this is the case here, but a reminder to everyone that this does happen and you should take things people say with a grain of salt.

I was wondering why you were bashing so much on Duke and suggesting OP go other places and it looks like you applied to Duke 2022-2023 Duke
Did you get in? You don't happen to be WL or waiting on an A and are trying to discourage people from going to Duke so you'd have a better chance would you?
Might be the conspiracy theorist in me, but this used to be a big thing a few years back, a lot of people seemed to create fack accounts to bash certain schools and there was a clear pattern because they were hoping to get off the WL. Not saying this is the case here, but a reminder to everyone that this does happen and you should take things people say with a grain of salt.

Certainly not! Duke is obviously a strong program with great research which is why I applied but this was my impression especially after looking at places with stronger equity initiatives. I interviewed at quite a few places I never posted on the pages including a couple here so just wanted to throw in my 2 cents. That said I am probably biased toward GT because my friend is likely going there specially for child neuro. Like I said tho, can’t go wrong with any of these! I feel like this just shows this site can be tricky when it comes to advice, so seconded what ppl said about talking to current students and attending second looks!

 

[m1redsox]

But I am not OP, and it's pretty clear imo that OP is not interested I Duke. You keep talking about how factors rank for you. What aren't you understanding about the fact that your personal desires aren't that relevant in OP's decision?

(Kind of condescending question btw)

UCSF
Cons
- Extremely far from home
- Extremely expensive (housing and other)

Georgetown
pros
- close to support system

Duke
Pros
- Really large and respected clinical research center
- god tier match list
- Well respected in and out of medicine

Problem is I am interested in research though, and I love peds and I love neuroscience/neurology but I want to keep my specialty options open so I wonder if going for prestige would be more helpful if I have a career pivot in the future.

I based my recommendation on things that OP wrote are important to them (see bolded above). The only rebuttals I had were as somebody who has (1) lived in both places (CA vs NC) and has (2) gone to medical school. And, I would argue that OP likely came to SDN to get different perspectives from people who have those experiences.

(1) - I said that in terms of weather, Durham is not so bad, and actually has pretty comparable weather to SF when compared to DC or NYC. In terms of the city, I noted that there were some pros for living in an affordable area with less traffic, especially for someone with financial limitations (unless UCSF comes back with lots of aid, which may be the case).

(2) - I made the point that at the end of the day, involvement in health equity will be largely up to the student, and Duke's location in the heart of the South actually makes their patient population quite diverse and underserved with lots of opportunities to be involved in health equity. I'm sure that UCSF puts a bigger emphasis on this, but just because it's better there doesn't mean it's non-existent at another top tier institution like Duke.

And again, I'll reflect back on my first message about GT being a better option if they don't care for prestige, even though OP has expressed that child neuro research is an area of interest for them.

With that said, prestige really only matters if you want to do a surgical sub, derm, or academics/research. If you have no interest in those, sounds like GT is a great option for you.

Your recommendation seems to focus on health equity curriculum, weather/city, and prestige/research, all of which OP mentioned was important. Mine focuses on prestige/research, cost, and closeness to support system, all of which OP mentioned was important. I don't see anywhere where OP indicated which factors were the biggest priorities to them (ie diversity/equity vs closeness to home), so it sounds like we are just focusing on different preferences that OP mentioned.

Really two sides of the same coin here. Any of the 4 options sound awesome for OP, and I wish them luck.

 

[TheOtherAlien]

I think it's going to be very hard for you to make a full decision on this until aid comes out. All aid being equal, I think this is ultimately a question of how much you value being near support vs how important you feel it is to have the research/networking opportunity and the resultant flexibility of specialty choice that being at a more "prestigious" institution brings.

 

[Pinkfluffybunny]

I have to make a similar decision so I’ve been stalking these threads (Duke vs Weill vs Pitt for me though). Got rejected from GT and UCSF and on WL for Icahn (for transparency sake).

I think right off the bat in terms of sheer number of cons you have way more for Icahn + Duke. So in my mind those move a bit lower. I did work at Icahn during one of my gap years though, and honestly, the apartments are pretty nice!! It’s definitely a change in environment but great area + focus on underserved. Also VERY diverse. Staff is treated like **** (lol @Me) but med students are treated VERY nicely from what I’ve seen. Also NYC to DC is j a bus, so I’d recommend taking a closer look at Sinai before you rule it out!

I would personally choose UCSF for the following reasons:
1.) they have everything you want in terms of curriculum + social justice work + diversity
2.) they typically give very good aid + tuition elsewhere is p high
3.) if you have an MD from UCSF I think it’ll be relatively easy for you to match at GT or anywhere you want for residency.
4.) research opportunities are endless
Also correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe UCSF is higher than all your other options in terms of child neurology rankings on doximity ?? Unsure.

I recognize cost and distance from family are important to consider, but OOS COA for UCSF estimated is $88k (compared to GT $100k, Duke $70k, Sinai $86k). Other than GT they’re relatively comparable. Personally, I wouldn’t go to a school where you don’t love the area (re: Duke) - I did that in undergrad and it sucked. It just never felt “homey” to me, which is why I think UCSF would be a better fit.

I get not wanting to leave your support system at home though, but you can always rotate at GT/Hopkins/other hospitals close to the DMV area.

Just my two cents though, congrats on your excellent cycle