ICU fellowships with plenty of MICU rotations

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chocomorsel

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Anyone here know of any. I don't want a fellowship that focuses only or even mostly on surgical patients. I want a well rounded fellowship. I found the MICU to be more challenging while in residency. Sicker patients.

Looks like George Wasington would be a contender. Any others?

Thanks in advance.
 
Good post, and important for an intensivist because MICU is likely the most foreign ICU for an anesthesiologist, at least in terms of disease pathology.

One also might consider programs with a cardiac focus during their CCM year as well - you’d want to ensure your CCU/med cards unit rotations are lumped in with CVICU. Talk about some sickly, unstable patients.
 
What possessed you to do an ICU fellowship? I thought you were on the locums "be your own boss" tip??
 
Anyone here know of any. I don't want a fellowship that focuses only or even mostly on surgical patients. I want a well rounded fellowship. I found the MICU to be more challenging while in residency. Sicker patients.

Looks like George Wasington would be a contender. Any others?

Thanks in advance.
It may be helpful if you posted the geographical area you are interested in. It's best to do your fellowship close to the area you want to end up practicing in.
 
It may be helpful if you posted the geographical area you are interested in. It's best to do your fellowship close to the area you want to end up practicing in.
I want to end up in TX. But open to a well rounded program anywhere. Even the Tundra of Minnesota. Its only a year.
 
Might as well do a fellowship at the morgue if you you wanna see dead people.
I don't plan on living in the US forever and want to be a well rounded anesthesiologist. In other countries they don't dote on their "dead" patients as much as we do. A lot less futile care.
 
Most ICU fellowships give you some electives, you can do MICU and as an elective it's almost better: you're not a scheduled fellow so you're not dependent for coverage, you can focus on learning the management and there's usually a pulm intensivist which you can pick their brain. For job searches it's not a bad idea, most ICU jobs are academic with a focused unit (neuro/cardiac/sicu) or a mixed ICU with medical/surgical in a community hospital with less acuity that the MICU electives should prepare you for. Ultimately you should look for the best ICU fellowship, regardless of medical icu exposure, the good ones work hard but you're needed for decisions/management, you're treated as junior faculty and not a super resident, ones that focus on listening to your career goals and allow to achieve them, these are few and far between.
 
U Wisconsin is very balanced, 3 months in the MICU, 3 in the SICU, 6 weeks in CTICU and 6 weeks split between NSICU and CCU. Also time on ID service and nephrology; as well as echo. Fellows also go to a good ultrasound course in June and have this integrated into practice well. Feel free to PM me with questions.


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Most ICU fellowships give you some electives, you can do MICU and as an elective it's almost better: you're not a scheduled fellow so you're not dependent for coverage, you can focus on learning the management and there's usually a pulm intensivist which you can pick their brain. For job searches it's not a bad idea, most ICU jobs are academic with a focused unit (neuro/cardiac/sicu) or a mixed ICU with medical/surgical in a community hospital with less acuity that the MICU electives should prepare you for. Ultimately you should look for the best ICU fellowship, regardless of medical icu exposure, the good ones work hard but you're needed for decisions/management, you're treated as junior faculty and not a super resident, ones that focus on listening to your career goals and allow to achieve them, these are few and far between.
@chocomorsel, you'll want to be the fellow in charge of the MICU (plus/minus SICU), the most senior trainee on call who is the in-house viceroy, who does everything an attending would do, especially triage and crisis management. You don't want MICU to be "an elective"; you should be part of the MICU fabric the same way you are of the SICU, and you should be super autonomous when on call.

I had the pleasure of a program like that, but it was in a galaxy far away from where you are, and the brand is not strong enough to make you cross the country for it. I actually had more MICU exposure than SICU (on purpose); I think SICU is critical care lite, in many places. I agree with @Maverikk that, first of all, you'll want a good high-acuity program, where a good number of SICU patients will remind you of the MICU. That year is so short, and there is so much to see and learn, you have no idea.

Regardless where you end up, my hat off to you. I like how you think. You're off to a good start.
 
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Good post, and important for an intensivist because MICU is likely the most foreign ICU for an anesthesiologist, at least in terms of disease pathology.

One also might consider programs with a cardiac focus during their CCM year as well - you’d want to ensure your CCU/med cards unit rotations are lumped in with CVICU. Talk about some sickly, unstable patients.
Plus cardiac surgeries are so strategic for hospitals, and there are so few surgical intensivists who can do CVICU, that such a program will open many doors. Just don't let the cardiac ICUs (or any others) dominate your fellowship year.
 
Simply doing more MICU months won't make you a better or even a more well-rounded intensivist. Also, most SICU patients are there for medical reasons.
 
Simply doing more MICU months won't make you a better or even a more well-rounded intensivist. Also, most SICU patients are there for medical reasons.
How many months of MICU have you done, as a fellow? 😛

What MICU brought to my education (besides sicker patients, no offense) was a broader exposure to medical diseases, and a much more evidence-based approach to treatment (and generally a more modern approach to critical care - surgeons invest less time in reading). It may have been specific to my center, but I doubt it. We were primary only in the MICU though, so that also mattered a lot (but that's the setup in most ICUs).

I remember spending physically more time on call in the MICU than in the SICU, and I remember the patients being older and sicker, on average. I barely remember seeing severe ARDS/pulmonary edema in the SICU, for example. Never a bad asthma attack or a diabetic coma. Never a tumor lysis syndrome. Never a pheo crysis. Fewer electrolyte disorders. Much less AKI. Much less ID exposure; more knee-jerk antibio- and everything-therapy. Never a septic + cardiogenic shock at the same time. Never a fulminant liver failure. Never a severe COPD/chronic lung disease/PHTN. Never a high-dose peripheral pressor or an unconventional treatment. Much less POCUS for both diagnosis and treatment. Less difficult vent management. Etc, etc, etc. One third of the patients were there for nursing reasons (neuro checks, vascular checks etc.).

Spending months in the MICU as THE fellow (not just as an elective/afterthought) may not matter at a top 10-20 academic center, but, in many places, I would expect it to. Same with in-house calls and running the ICU at night with the attending on home call and hands-off (much rarer in a SICU, where the trauma surgeon is in the house). Our responsibilities were so broad and deep, as on-call fellows, that the PD kept asking if it was not too much for us, if we felt it was safe.

Another big difference, in my view: many patients with multiple severe pre-existing medical diseases never get a surgery in the first place, because no surgeon wants bad outcomes. At the same time, the MICU is the last resort for exactly those patients who would never qualify for a non-emergent surgical intervention. During my fellowship, I forgot more (patho)physiology I had learned in the MICU than what I had ever seen in the SICU. I also think that anesthesiologists come with enough SICU experience from their residency, while having too little MICU experience (especially if they didn't do a medicine internship).

Yes, critical care is mostly the same group of frequent diseases in both SICU and MICU, but each has its own specifics, strengths and weaknesses, and cross-pollination teaches one the best of both worlds. Even in the SICU world, there are so many specialties, and one should get exposure to as many types of patients as possible. As I have said, looking back, the fellowship feels almost too short; critical care is more like another specialty than a subspecialty.
 
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I also think that anesthesiologists come with enough SICU experience from their residency, while having too little MICU experience (especially if they didn't do a medicine internship).

Great post, FFP. I wanted to highlight the above - in my residency I did 4
Months of SICU, 1 CVICU, scattered Burn as well. I feel like I could probably deal with ~ 80-90% of day to day issues in SICU without a fellowship. A CCM fellowship is better spent learning that 75%+ Id be uncomfortable with in the MICU, Neuro ICU and Cardiac ICU.
 
I don't think most anesthesia CCM fellowships are going to have much MICU. I feel like those with "a lot" will be maybe 2 months, and those with "not much" have none. It's only a one year fellowship. You've got a lot of stuff to get done in that year (ID, neph, echo, pulm/bronch, nutrition, etc) in addition to primary ICU duty in a variety of settings (med, surg, CCU, CV surg, neuro, etc).

Mayo keeps getting thrown around as "medicine heavy" but in my experience the fellows do two to three 4-week rotations in medical ICUs (one real MICU staffed by IM/CC and pulm/CC docs and a mixed med/surg ICU that is not really a MICU despite having IM attendings half the time). Mayo's mixed med/surg skews heavily surgical (with lots of liver transplant) and the medical stuff is mostly heme-onc, just because of what types of patients are actually inpatients at that hospital. One thing that is nice about Mayo's program is that many of the ICUs (even surgical) are closed units with anesthesia attendings where surgery is a consulting service and can't write orders. Anesthesia has also taken over the CV surgery ICUs. I did seven months of CCM as a resident there (including intern year), and feel I got really good ICU training, but the fellowship didn't feel real "medicine heavy".
 
How many months of MICU have you done, as a fellow? 😛
2 MICU months as a fellow. Many many more as a board certified intensivist. I think I know some things. I've learned by now that it's really difficult to take anything you post seriously. No one on this forum talks as much **** as you, without having the actual experience to back it up.
 
2 MICU months as a fellow. Many many more as a board certified intensivist. I think I know some things. I've learned by now that it's really difficult to take anything you post seriously. No one on this forum talks as much **** as you, without having the actual experience to back it up.
:corny:
 
2 MICU months as a fellow. Many many more as a board certified intensivist. I think I know some things. I've learned by now that it's really difficult to take anything you post seriously. No one on this forum talks as much **** as you, without having the actual experience to back it up.
You seem to have a personal problem with me. I should have just left you on my ignore list. Please do the same.

I have re-read my post, which refers specifically to my own fellowship experience. You may disagree, but I couldn't care less about your experience in that context. If anything, your training was so far ago that you don't even remember it well-enough to be able to give advice about fellowships (the same way I don't give advice about medical school). And nothing you say will convince me that a well-rounded CCM fellow should not rotate through as many ICU-types as possible. We are not training to become board-certified in surgical intensive care or cardiac intensive care or neuro intensive care or whatever subspecialty the program wants to stick us into for the majority of our training. The best programs will offer meaningful exposure to everything; MICU patients tend to outnumber surgical ones, so one should probably have at least 2 meaningful MICU months, where the anesthesiology CCM fellow is part of the MICU fabric.
 
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Anyone have any insight on UAB or George Washington?
I have heard good things about UTH as well. That medical center is just too giant though. But certainly interested in that one.
 
Anyone have any insight on UAB or George Washington?
I have heard good things about UTH as well. That medical center is just too giant though. But certainly interested in that one.
I liked UAB when I interviewed there almost two years ago. I think I ranked then rather highly, too, but matched my number 1. When I can get to my computer, I'll PM you the document I made while interviewing to compare the different programs. One interesting thing to note about UAB is that they have experience with mid-career applicants. When I interviewed, there were three EM-CC fellows with 1-15 years of post-residency work experience, and one anes-CC fellow who had been in practice for four or five years before going back to fellowship.

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Agree with the sentiment that you get plenty of SICU during anesthesia residency, and if you want to round out your skill and knowledge base, you'd do a medicine-heavy fellowship.

Stanford, UW, UCSF count as medicine-heavy.
 
You work like a damn dog, but I hear you learn a lot. Been told by a former fellow that you work 70 hours a week plus and gonna want to quit every week.
One can't pay me enough to do a fellowship like that. I actually turned something like that down (and it was a BIG name). No regrets.

A critical care fellowship is not another year of residency. It should be the best year of one's education, that's why one is giving up hundreds of thousands. If they want one to work like a dog, they should get a dog instead.
 
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One can't pay me enough to do a fellowship like that. I actually turned something like that down (and it was a BIG name). No regrets.

A critical care fellowship is not another year of residency. It should be the best year of one's education, that's why one is giving up hundreds of thousands. If they want one to work like a dog, they should get a dog instead.
Yup. Surprised many people don’t quit, as a fellow you can actually quit and get a real job....
 
One can't pay me enough to do a fellowship like that. I actually turned something like that down (and it was a BIG name). No regrets.

A critical care fellowship is not another year of residency. It should be the best year of one's education, that's why one is giving up hundreds of thousands. If they want one to work like a dog, they should get a dog instead.
From what I recall from my experience when I was applying a few years ago, many very big names structure their fellowships like that. You're treated like crap, work long hours, sacrifice a ton of money, but get to link their name to yours. One should learn a ton, no matter where one goes. What matters is adequate exposure to a variety of units, autonomy, and time away from clinical responsibilities to process everything (and take a breath, spend time with family) and read.

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One can't pay me enough to do a fellowship like that. I actually turned something like that down (and it was a BIG name). No regrets.

A critical care fellowship is not another year of residency. It should be the best year of one's education, that's why one is giving up hundreds of thousands. If they want one to work like a dog, they should get a dog instead.
My thoughts exactly. I didn’t go there.
 
Yikes good to know what I'd be getting myself into. However, are there really any ICU fellowships out there that do have reasonable hours? I would feel like it's the nature of the ICU to be there at least 60 per week especially if you need to do call and such.
Remember, many full-time critical care jobs are 84+ hours/week, but working only every other week.

I remember some programs a few years ago that were basically M-F 7-4 only. Weekend and night work (either ICU at a community hospital/VA or anesthesia in the main OR) available for extra pay. Others were anywhere between that and Q3-4 24+ hour call. When applying and interviewing, be sure to ask about call and hours. One place sent me their current month's schedule for the SICU and CVICU, and I subsequently dropped them down a little on my rank list.

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Yikes good to know what I'd be getting myself into. However, are there really any ICU fellowships out there that do have reasonable hours? I would feel like it's the nature of the ICU to be there at least 60 per week especially if you need to do call and such.

Yeah, I wouldn't rule out this program completely.

Time to read and live (mostly, read) is important...but if you don't have a family and are less than 35yo, then consider working your ass off for a year...IF, IF, IF the educational and professional benefit is great enough.

I'd much rather be a kick-ass intensivist for 20+ years making good money, than a weak-sauce ICU doc who questions his/her competence/value for years just to work a bit less during a fellowship year (when you will certainly work more than 50h/wk, no matter where you go).

And I'm not even a young, idealistic whippersnapper!

HH
 
Yeah, I wouldn't rule out this program completely.

Time to read and live (mostly, read) is important...but if you don't have a family and are less than 35yo, then consider working your ass off for a year...IF, IF, IF the educational and professional benefit is great enough.

I'd much rather be a kick-ass intensivist for 20+ years making good money, than a weak-sauce ICU doc who questions his/her competence/value for years just to work a bit less during a fellowship year (when you will certainly work more than 50h/wk, no matter where you go).

And I'm not even a young, idealistic whippersnapper!

HH

People don’t need to be convinced. There’s a lot of self selection for residency, fellowship, and jobs.
 
Yeah, I wouldn't rule out this program completely.

Time to read and live (mostly, read) is important...but if you don't have a family and are less than 35yo, then consider working your ass off for a year...IF, IF, IF the educational and professional benefit is great enough.

I'd much rather be a kick-ass intensivist for 20+ years making good money, than a weak-sauce ICU doc who questions his/her competence/value for years just to work a bit less during a fellowship year (when you will certainly work more than 50h/wk, no matter where you go).

And I'm not even a young, idealistic whippersnapper!

HH
Respectfully, IMHO (n=1), the most important things for a CCM fellow are to be exposed to varied pathology, and to have time to read. If the program has great teachers, even better, but the returns for reading are way higher than for listening/watching, on an hourly basis. Nowadays there are a ton of great critical care lectures and articles on the Internet, one just needs enough time to consume them.

I feel that many programs tend to create great monkey see monkey do people, like most residencies. That's good for the doc; not so good for the patients. To become a great doctor, one has to get beyond the dogma, be exposed to a lot of different thinking, which invariably means reading a lot. Doing is great, but ideally one should be reading then doing then reading then doing etc., in a neverending cycle that makes one better with every iteration.

Also, where reading becomes VERY important is knowing what NOT to do. Few fellowships teach that properly (mine didn't, except for one person I didn't truly appreciate as a fellow - dummy!). I have probably saved as many patients by not doing the "right" thing as by doing it, and it's shocking how much iatrogenic pathology one can see if one digs into some charts.
 
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Yes there are. Where I did my fellowship was never more than 50 hours a week. Some people would say that is lacking, but I am way too old to kill myself anymore.
Yikes good to know what I'd be getting myself into. However, are there really any ICU fellowships out there that do have reasonable hours? I would feel like it's the nature of the ICU to be there at least 60 per week especially if you need to do call and such.
 
My fellowship certainly had its share of hour-heavy weeks, none of which was “scut” or inappropriate. We did 2 blocks of 6 (or 7?) consecutive 12h shifts in SICU...but had an “administration week” each month, in which our required scholarship activities could be addressed, but also our presence in the hospital was not mandatory. Most of my admin weeks were a maximum of 4 hrs in house.

It might not be for everyone, but the “work hard/play hard” schedule was PERFECT for me. Heavy, concentrated clinical experience followed by time to read, absorb, reflect, and recover. It was great.

Last, while you must be honest and true to yourself (I.e.: don’t do something you KNOW you’ll hate), I would encourage “over-training” - seek a place that will demand from you more than you expect to do while on your own in practice. I don’t (per se) mean “You need to be working 120 hours to learn ICU”, I do think you want exposure to as much EDUCATIONALLY RELEVANT clinical badness as you can get. Someone else can replace the K. But ECMO and dialysis lines go in on nights and weekends, too.
 
The unfortunate part about CCM fellowship is that maximum autonomy and maximum “holy sht what is going I need to figure this out” clinical scenarios frequently happen at 2am. If you’re not in house at least some of this time then you’re missing out.
 
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