If dentistry was a medical specialty...

[mtheman]

this is very amusing. do you even know what you are talking about? last time i checked, oral and maxillofacial surgery wasn't under head and neck surgery. it is a dental specialty. and fyi, ent's call us all the time to help them out in their trauma cases. do i call them when i have cancer cases? of course. the two are different and both needed. why don't you stop bashing on other people and get your own facts straight. by the way, i am a dentist by training. duh. i guess if you have problem with being operated by a "dentist" then it'll be your loss if you ever get some sort of facial trauma, 'cause i for one, and as many of the er physicians would agree, wouldn't want my face to be operated by ent or plastics if i ever get my face smashed.

Agreed. To add something of my own, there are plenty of omfs dudes who have gone through a head and neck cancer fellowship, and who are more than qualified to operate on that part of the body.

---

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[dentalman09]

Also, dentistry would never have the same appeal as derm. Like you said, it's hard to get into derm. However, I see dentists who have offices in every shopping center and almost every block. I think that dentistry cannot be compared to derm but maybe to family medicine. I have nothing against family med since I myself considered going into it. But, it is well known that family med is really not that difficult to get into now.

psychedoc2b

a general dentist is compared to family, IM, peds, and psych. when comparing derm to a dentistry, you need to look at endo, ortho, pros, OMFS, pedo, perio.

By your comment, it shows me that you have no idea what dentistry is all about. You just group it as one thing--lemma guess....pulling teeth and filling in cavities? You don't see me describing all physicians as cold and flu script writers, do you? There's a reason why dental school is also 4 years with the option of 3-6 year residency. If it were that easy, I could learn it at DeVry or ITT Tech. The only "edge" for PCP is the 3 year residency vs. general dentist's zero. However, I wouldn't brag too much about those 80+ work weeks.

 

[OMFSdoc]

while i will admit you have a good point and that derm's salary probably isn't double that of a the avg dentists, i tend to think the ADA is really skewed on their data. You check out any salary survey or data out there it is much lower than what the ADA reports. I was first skeptical because I know a few dentists who have been practicing for a few years now and they aren't making that yet. While, if you look at other salary surveys they are all pretty close to what the AMA reports. With that aside (not that it really matters to argue this anymore because there is no point... but for the sake of arguing some stupid topic like this...):
(I had not seen the data about derms from the AMA)
http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/...de=&pagenumber=&zipcode=&metrocode=&x=18&y=17
http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/...de=&pagenumber=&zipcode=&metrocode=&x=14&y=11


Either way you look at it, there is a considerable gap (50-70k)

If you're gonna do comparisons between Derm and a dental field, why don't you choose the dental specialty that is extremely competitive due to lifestyle.....Orthodontics. Derm vs. General Dentist doesn't make sense, however Derm vs. Orthodontist would be interesting and likely quite close in comparison.

 

[NileBDS]

a general dentist is compared to family, IM, peds, and psych. when comparing derm to a dentistry, you need to look at endo, ortho, pros, OMFS, pedo, perio.

By your comment, it shows me that you have no idea what dentistry is all about. You just group it as one thing--lemma guess....pulling teeth and filling in cavities? You don't see me describing all physicians as cold and flu script writers, do you? There's a reason why dental school is also 4 years with the option of 3-6 year residency. If it were that easy, I could learn it at DeVry or ITT Tech. The only "edge" for PCP is the 3 year residency vs. general dentist's zero. However, I wouldn't brag too much about those 80+ work weeks.

Hello dentalman09
I guess the point that psyched2beadoc was trying to make, or in other words the comparison he is arguing is dentistry as whole being a medical specialty. Inother words, you would have to go through a residency program after medical school to be further qualified/specialized in, simmilar in that case to derm. In that case, ortho, endo, etc. being sub-specialities.
Am I correct psyched2beadoc ? Sorry if I spoke on your behalf, but I thought it might clear up the confusion a little bit.
I further agree with you that most people see dentistry as pulling teeth and 6 month checkups. But again, we both need to understand more about eachothers professions inorder to be able to team up and collectively serve our respective communities better.
On a lighter note dentalman09, can you give me your personal impression about Univ. of the Pacific, Univ. of Colorado and NYU dental schools ? I'm in the process of interviewing and being put on waiting lists, and am kind of confused !
I would appreciate anyones input actually.
Thanks.

 

[psychedoc2b]

a general dentist is compared to family, IM, peds, and psych. when comparing derm to a dentistry, you need to look at endo, ortho, pros, OMFS, pedo, perio.

By your comment, it shows me that you have no idea what dentistry is all about. You just group it as one thing--lemma guess....pulling teeth and filling in cavities? You don't see me describing all physicians as cold and flu script writers, do you? There's a reason why dental school is also 4 years with the option of 3-6 year residency. If it were that easy, I could learn it at DeVry or ITT Tech. The only "edge" for PCP is the 3 year residency vs. general dentist's zero. However, I wouldn't brag too much about those 80+ work weeks.

I admit I was talking about gen. dentistry, not its specialties. I would not compare dental school to tech school either. I understand that dental specialties are difficult to get into also since there are very few spots and pay well. So, it is like derm in some respects. To tell you the truth, I don't really care for your comparisons about dental specialties to medical specialties. Med students go to med school to be physicians, podiatrists go to podiatry school, chiropractors go to DC school, dentists go to dental school. Is there much to compare, that is, between medicine and dentistry? You can have your same little argument with podiatrists, chiropractors, pharmacists who do have residencies also. I don't see why you posted your thread in the medical forums, unless you wanted to prove a point that dentists should be just as respected and well-compensated as physicians. Am I right? For me, I just want to have competent dentists, physicians, etc. who care about my well-being more than seeing me as a dollar sign. I am glad for you if you think that dental specialties are as competitive as derm. I truly hope you do well enough to get a residency also. I don't know why you are so defensive when I say that gen. dentistry is like family practice. Both professions have offices in almost every shopping center and block I have seen. I did not mean to disparage you personally. Edge or no edge residency is required of all medical fields. I am satisfied about this. I would not want to go to a dentist without much experience because I only have one set of teeth. At least, I know an FP has gone through residency and not so inexperienced. I am so happy for you that with a dental specialty you are going to roll in the big bucks. I hope that you are now satisfied.

psychedoc2b

 

[dentalman09]

I admit I was talking about gen. dentistry, not its specialties. I would not compare dental school to tech school either. I understand that dental specialties are difficult to get into also since there are very few spots and pay well. So, it is like derm in some respects. To tell you the truth, I don't really care for your comparisons about dental specialties to medical specialties. Med students go to med school to be physicians, podiatrists go to podiatry school, chiropractors go to DC school, dentists go to dental school. Is there much to compare, that is, between medicine and dentistry? You can have your same little argument with podiatrists, chiropractors, pharmacists who do have residencies also. I don't see why you posted your thread in the medical forums, unless you wanted to prove a point that dentists should be just as respected and well-compensated as physicians. Am I right? For me, I just want to have competent dentists, physicians, etc. who care about my well-being more than seeing me as a dollar sign. I am glad for you if you think that dental specialties are as competitive as derm. I truly hope you do well enough to get a residency also. I don't know why you are so defensive when I say that gen. dentistry is like family practice. Both professions have offices in almost every shopping center and block I have seen. I did not mean to disparage you personally. Edge or no edge residency is required of all medical fields. I am satisfied about this. I would not want to go to a dentist without much experience because I only have one set of teeth. At least, I know an FP has gone through residency and not so inexperienced. I am so happy for you that with a dental specialty you are going to roll in the big bucks. I hope that you are now satisfied.

psychedoc2b

I think there has been a misunderstanding. I agree with you saying that generl dentistry is like family medicine. I did not intend to start some pissing match between the two professions. The reason why I posted in the med forums and lounge is see med/physicians opinions, as well as the dental students. I just find it interesting that the ROAD lifestyle specialities are the most competitive. I just wanted to see if those who choose those fields would have an interest in dentistry if it was part of the medical process as it was awhile ago.

Truce

 

[cfdavid]

I agree with the op. If dentistry were a medical specialty it would be among the most desireable fields. Forget conventional wisdom: the average dentist in private practice now outearns the average family doc or pediatrician in private practice, while working less hours. IMO being a primary care doc in a community practice wouldn't be all that exciting in terms of medical complexity. That leaves the prestige of being a "real doctor" as the only tangible advantage a family doc has over a dentist. If dentistry were a medical specialty the prestige factor would be gone.

I absolutely agree. It's funny how people tend to pretend that prestige doesn't play a role. A rather large role at that.

 

[toofache32]

... I would not want to go to a dentist without much experience because I only have one set of teeth. At least, I know an FP has gone through residency and not so inexperienced. ...

I'm not sure if I understand this....what other choices do you have with dentists? The standard training is 4-years of dental school. Remember that dental students are actually doing procedures the entire time, whereas in med school I only did rectals and cut sutures.

 

[Hoya11]

I absolutely agree. It's funny how people tend to pretend that prestige doesn't play a role. A rather large role at that.

The difference between a GP Dentist and an FP doctor is more than "prestige of being a real doctor" We study the whole body and general clinical medicine in more detail, its not just "prestige" that is guiding us horriblly shallow med students, maybe its interest in the whole human body and disease outside of the mouth? I mean come on I hear this argument all the time before the predents hijack the thread. Yes, some are about prestige, but not all, some just actually like the work of a doctor different from a dentist.

 

[zenith]

I think the rise of the dentists extends beyond this. For a long time, it seems, dentists were considered as not good enough for medical school and therefore inferior to doctors, with pay packets to match. However, now it is plainly obvious that entry to dental school is just as rigorous, dental school itself seems even more challenging than medical school, and dental graduate salaries outstrip that of medical graduates for several years post-graduation without the long, long, internship residency and fellowship. Furthermore dentists appear to have far better lifestyles, including more time to spend with their familes.

I feel that the rise of the prestige of dentistry is somewhat due to the fact that so many doctors talk down their profession (its so stressful, the pay sucks, litigation....etc.) and dentists talk up their profession (3.5 days in the clinic then i drive my porsche to the driving range for the rest of the week...i earn $500k a year and and am self-employed).

 

[psychedoc2b]

I'm not sure if I understand this....what other choices do you have with dentists? The standard training is 4-years of dental school. Remember that dental students are actually doing procedures the entire time, whereas in med school I only did rectals and cut sutures.

Really. Well, poor you! Maybe you should get more experience by finishing med school, if you are really in med school, and go to residency. I have nothing to say to you except to go pick on your own.

psychedoc2b

 

[toofache32]

Really. Well, poor you! Maybe you should get more experience by finishing med school, if you are really in med school, and go to residency. I have nothing to say to you except to go pick on your own.

psychedoc2b

Well poor all of us who finish med school and are expected to be able to use our hands.

Man.....who pissed in your coffee this morning?

 

[Equal]

To answer the original question, the reason the training of medicine and dentistry are different is solely due to history and tradition. Feel free to go and explore the origins and evolutions of the two fields throughout time. In an identical field, one can finish a PhD in 4 years and another can finish in 7 years. Can you say that the person who did the 7 years of PhD is more knowledgeable/well-trained, or slower than the other person? My opinion is, the quality is much more important than the quantity of training in any field, and training should never be judged temporally.

I know people who go into dentistry or other fields rather than medicine strictly because one can finish the training faster.

Also, a medical graduate is not restricted to medical residencies. There are a few OMFS residencies that accept medical graduates into their 6 year curriculum. There are also dental schools that grant DMD or DDS to medical graduates with 2 years of clinical dentistry training. There are medical graduates who enter these 2 pathways every year. To answer your question, personally I ruled out those 2 options as an MD/PhD student. My girlfriend is in dentistry and wishes for me to be a dentist as well, but I have no interest in "head and neck medicine/oral surgery/dentistry." It's strictly more of a personal interest rather than a "would all you medical people be interested in dentistry?"

 

[toofache32]

...Also, a medical graduate is not restricted to medical residencies. There are a few OMFS residencies that accept medical graduates into their 6 year curriculum.

...and these residencies require them to complete dental school. OMFS is a dental specialty, the MD is optional.

There are also dental schools that grant DMD or DDS to medical graduates with 2 years of clinical dentistry training. There are medical graduates who enter these 2 pathways every year.

I seriously doubt that this happens every year. Which schools? And is this outside of OMFS?

 

[OzDDS]

head and neck surgeons.. That speciality is reserved for otolaryngologists (MD).

On a side note... I thought OMFS was the abbreviation for Oral, Maxillofacial Surgery? I guess I can see how it could be grouped under Head and Neck surgery, but that would be like calling a podiatrist a leg surgeon.... or like calling a psychologist a psychiatrist...

Actually.. the specialty is Otolaryngologist/ENT ie.. Ears, nose, and throat. These three things are part of the H/N complex. But so is OMS ie. Mouth, jaws, face.

Both OMS and ENT do Head and Neck surgery. so no.. I dont think your analogy is quite correct.

 

[coffeeluver]

I absolutely agree. It's funny how people tend to pretend that prestige doesn't play a role. A rather large role at that.

maybe some would rather save lives rather than save teeth?

 

[psychedoc2b]

Well poor all of us who finish med school and are expected to be able to use our hands.

Man.....who pissed in your coffee this morning?

Oh know, another cockroach! Slam! Killed it for good... I love to kill cockroaches.. Anyways, I see you finished med school and now are going to dental school. Why is that? Why did you spend another two-four years retraining yourself when you could have just gone to residency? I have heard of dental students switching into medical school but not the other way around. And yes, the ones I know who went into med school became OMFS. So, please tell me why you wanted to retrain yourself by going to dental school. You could have gone into OMFS without going to dental school. Don't you think you wasted time retraining by taking the DAT and spending more money on tuition etc. when you could have just gone into an OMFS residency from med school?

psychedoc2b

 

[psychedoc2b]

duplicate post

 

[DropkickMurphy]

For someone who is probably either a PsyD or MD who is pursuing psychiatry you sure have a big issue with respect for your fellow medical providers. Could it be gross insecurity? Could it be that maybe you're afraid that perhaps Toofache and his colleagues have larger penises?

 

[toofache32]

Oh know, another cockroach! Slam! Killed it for good... I love to kill cockroaches.. Anyways, I see you finished med school and now are going to dental school. Why is that? Why did you spend another two-four years retraining yourself when you could have just gone to residency? I have heard of dental students switching into medical school but not the other way around. And yes, the ones I know who went into med school became OMFS. So, please tell me why you wanted to retrain yourself by going to dental school. You could have gone into OMFS without going to dental school. Don't you think you wasted time retraining by taking the DAT and spending more money on tuition etc. when you could have just gone into an OMFS residency from med school?

psychedoc2b

Huh? What on earth are you talking about?

 

[psychedoc2b]

Huh? What on earth are you talking about?

Anyways, ignorance is bliss. It's interesting that dental students post on this forum. I hope you do find your calling. Toofache, I see you probably are just a regular dental student then. Well, I assure you I will never ever tread near your speciality. So, lighten up. I'm a bit disconcerted you dental students are so defensive. It's a shame. It's one thing to be educational but it's another thing to be so defensive and mean. What exactly are your problems in life that you dental students come here on this forum and try to rip apart the medical profession? I harbor no ill will towards you dental students. Lighten up, for god's sake. If you take yourselves so seriously you might have to breathe in some NO to get some good belly laughs. Just take it easy and enjoy life.

Peace
psychedoc2b

 

[psychedoc2b]

For someone who is probably either a PsyD or MD who is pursuing psychiatry you sure have a big issue with respect for your fellow medical providers. Could it be gross insecurity? Could it be that maybe you're afraid that perhaps Toofache and his colleagues have larger penises?

I have no issue. I just don't understand your response. If you want me to respect you, then why the derogatory comments?

psychedoc2b

 

[NileBDS]

I have no issue. I just don't understand your response. If you want me to respect you, then why the derogatory comments?

psychedoc2b

Friday the 13th ?

 

[NileBDS]

I have no issue. I just don't understand your response. If you want me to respect you, then why the derogatory comments?

psychedoc2b

Ok, I personally think this thread is getting out of control and becoming too hostile. I am afraid I will have to terminate all furture contributions to this thread. What ... I can't do that ... moderator ? no ... but this one time a ... not at all ? Okay ... umm ... KELLY CLARKSON

 

[OzDDS]

You could have gone into OMFS without going to dental school. Don't you think you wasted time retraining by taking the DAT and spending more money on tuition etc. when you could have just gone into an OMFS residency from med school?

psychedoc2b

This is incorrect. OMFS is a dental specialty and it is impossible to do OMFS residency without a dental degree.

 

[WestCoast]

Anyways, ignorance is bliss. It's interesting that dental students post on this forum. I hope you do find your calling. Toofache, I see you probably are just a regular dental student then. Well, I assure you I will never ever tread near your speciality. So, lighten up. I'm a bit disconcerted you dental students are so defensive. It's a shame. It's one thing to be educational but it's another thing to be so defensive and mean. What exactly are your problems in life that you dental students come here on this forum and try to rip apart the medical profession? I harbor no ill will towards you dental students. Lighten up, for god's sake. If you take yourselves so seriously you might have to breathe in some NO to get some good belly laughs. Just take it easy and enjoy life.

Peace
psychedoc2b

FYI, he graduated from dental school first, then graduated from med school. I believe he is now in intern year of general surgery.

 

[mtheman]

FYI, he graduated from dental school first, then graduated from med school. I believe he is now in intern year of general surgery.

I belive you are correct and I think toof still has 2 years left on his omfs residency. As for psychedoc2b you are a clueless ignorant b@stard, who is a $hit stain on the underpants of the whole medical and dental community. 😡

 

[psychedoc2b]

This is incorrect. OMFS is a dental specialty and it is impossible to do OMFS residency without a dental degree.

You're right.

psychedoc2b

 

[psychedoc2b]

I belive you are correct and I think toof still has 2 years left on his omfs residency. As for psychedoc2b you are a clueless ignorant b@stard, who is a $hit stain on the underpants of the whole medical and dental community. 😡

Really. You want me to respect you when you say such derogatory statements. I'm beginning to understand the problem with you fellows.

And, please do not lump the medical and dental fields together. I do not want to partake in the dental community but am a proud member of the medical community.

psychedoc2b

 

[psychedoc2b]

You do need a DDS or DMD?

psychedoc2b

 

[psychedoc2b]

...and these residencies require them to complete dental school. OMFS is a dental specialty, the MD is optional.


OMFS is also a medical specialty and can be obtained by an integrated MD/ OMFS program.


I seriously doubt that this happens every year. Which schools? And is this outside of OMFS?

I don't know but this whole thing is getting out of hand.

Good luck and best wishes!

psychedoc2b

 

[psychedoc2b]

[I admit my ignorance. You can throw stones at me now. GeeZ. It sounds as if derm, ENT, and other MD specialties are easier to do.

I will not contribute to this thread any longer.

psychedoc2b

 

[Hoya11]

I think the rise of the dentists extends beyond this. For a long time, it seems, dentists were considered as not good enough for medical school and therefore inferior to doctors, with pay packets to match. However, now it is plainly obvious that entry to dental school is just as rigorous, dental school itself seems even more challenging than medical school, and dental graduate salaries outstrip that of medical graduates for several years post-graduation without the long, long, internship residency and fellowship. Furthermore dentists appear to have far better lifestyles, including more time to spend with their familes.

I feel that the rise of the prestige of dentistry is somewhat due to the fact that so many doctors talk down their profession (its so stressful, the pay sucks, litigation....etc.) and dentists talk up their profession (3.5 days in the clinic then i drive my porsche to the driving range for the rest of the week...i earn $500k a year and and am self-employed).

I dont think prestige has increased for dentistry at all....

What do you call someone who failed out of (couldnt get in to) med school? A Dentist..

That mentality may be ******ed, but that is really the public perception in our culture and you have to be a big enough person to deal with this stigma, and say who cares, not fight against it and try to change it because it is rooted in our culture for a long time that mommys want their little babys to become Drs, not dentists.

 

[cfdavid]

The difference between a GP Dentist and an FP doctor is more than "prestige of being a real doctor" We study the whole body and general clinical medicine in more detail, its not just "prestige" that is guiding us horriblly shallow med students, maybe its interest in the whole human body and disease outside of the mouth? I mean come on I hear this argument all the time before the predents hijack the thread. Yes, some are about prestige, but not all, some just actually like the work of a doctor different from a dentist.

Who said anything about a GP Dentist vs. an FP? You do realize that because colonoscopies have become an accepted form of preventative care, some GI docs do them all day long. Sure, GI encompasses a LOT more than just that, but the reality is that many do primarily colonoscopies.

As if inserting a scope up people's anal canal is just so much more interesting than filling cavities and doing root canals. What about treating complicated gum disease?

So, you mean to tell me that if they didn't have MD behind their name, it would still be such a "hot" specialty?

Hmmm, irritable bowel syndrome is so sexy!! But, oh no, the mouth is just so disgusting! Give me a break.

I'm playing the devil's advocate here. I'm not downplaying the huge importance of what GI's do. But, I think it's funny how some people think the mouth is so "gross", yet have no problem with the anus and colon.
Yet, in reality, if you asked the general public which they find more "repulsive", probably 99% would say the lower digestive tract.

It would be refreshing if people were a bit more honest with themselves. Since, apparently, it's all about "solving complex, systemic, problems", why don't more people aspire towards being an engineer or an auto mechanic for that matter.

Just be honest, o.k. Doctors make more money, and have way more prestige.

 

[aphistis]

You guys are missing a huge point. If dentistry was a medical specialty, it would then fall under medical care and be subject to the same problems with managed care and doctor compensation that is so pervasive today in medicine. Dentistry has maintained a fair degree of distance from the tentacles of managed care because it is not considered "health care" under many definitions. Ever notice how dental coverage is separate from medical coverage. Or how people often forgo dental insurance and pay cash? Dentistry still operates more like medicine did before the managed care era. Relatively large numbers of cash patients and fee for service style insurance.

If dentistry ever got folded into medicine and was subject to the cruel sword of medicare set reimbursement rates (off which many PPOs set their fee schedules) and managed care, im sure the pay would would fall dramatically.

I'm inclined to think this isn't as likely to happen as it might look from outside the profession. Dentistry is by a large margin predominantly a procedural field, and my understanding of HMO/Medicare reimbursement is that tangible procedures tend to be paid much better than other codes. Also, a fair proportion of dentistry consists of elective procedures, which obviously pay far better still.

Dentists who get rich don't do it with exams, fillings, & uncomplicated gum disease. Veneers & top-end porcelain crowns/bridges can go for $800-$1200 per tooth, which amounts to as much as $15,000 on an 12-veneer case that requires 3-4 hours of total chair time, and will put $5000-$6000 straight into the doctor's pocket.

Regarding managed care, dentistry was able to stand aside and watch how HMOs/PPOs infiltrated & took over medicine. It's been a lot easier for us to resist penetration since we had the advantage of knowing what was going to happen & why it wouldn't be to our benefit. I'll be the first to admit physicians got the shaft in that respect. I don't think dentistry would suffer nearly as much as you think if it did happen, though.

 

[aphistis]

maybe some would rather save lives rather than save teeth?

And others would rather write 25 Toprol prescriptions a day?

Absolutely, there are plenty of physicians who frequently save lives. But you know as well as I do that this charade, that grasping patients back from the brink of death's gaping maw is something all, or even most, physicians do on a daily basis, is ridiculous.

 

[cfdavid]

And others would rather write 25 Toprol prescriptions a day?

Absolutely, there are plenty of physicians who frequently save lives. But you know as well as I do that this charade, that grasping patients back from the brink of death's gaping maw is something all, or even most, physicians do on a daily basis, is ridiculous.

Yeah, no kidding.

 

[size_tens]

Regarding managed care, dentistry was able to stand aside and watch how HMOs/PPOs infiltrated & took over medicine. It's been a lot easier for us to resist penetration since we had the advantage of knowing what was going to happen & why it wouldn't be to our benefit. I'll be the first to admit physicians got the shaft in that respect. I don't think dentistry would suffer nearly as much as you think if it did happen, though.

To suggest that dentists were somehow smart enough to sidestep managed care is misleading. Dentistry will not face the financial problems of medicine for 2 main reasons:
1) Dentists have no obligation to treat any random care-needing person regardless of their ability to pay. Non-paying patients add greatly to the costs of health care in urban areas and ultimately the costs are incurred by the general population.
2) There's no outcry over the costs of dentistry. Sure with enough public and political pressure the costs could be reduced, but no one cares enough to do anything.

 

[aphistis]

To suggest that dentists were somehow smart enough to sidestep managed care is misleading. Dentistry will not face the financial problems of medicine for 2 main reasons:
1) Dentists have no obligation to treat any random care-needing person regardless of their ability to pay. Non-paying patients add greatly to the costs of health care in urban areas and ultimately the costs are incurred by the general population.
2) There's no outcry over the costs of dentistry. Sure with enough public and political pressure the costs could be reduced, but no one cares enough to do anything.

This is a subtle but significant distortion of what I said. I never meant to imply that dentists as a demographic are somehow inherently smarter than physicians, and that's how we've been able to avoid managed care penetration.

What I meant was that during the rise of managed care, medicine's pie is a whole lot bigger than dentistry's, and so the HMOs tended to overlook us while they were working on you guys. It's a lot easier to fight back against somebody when you've had 20 years to watch them from the sidelines to see how they operate. Physicians were the first group managed care went after, and so you didn't have that advantage. If they'd come after dentistry first, it'd be our reimbursement system that was in the crapper while you guys were benefitting from our mistakes.

 

[unoriginal]

why is it that dents always feel they have to defend their profession? does it really matter that dentists aren't considered physicians and it is a less competitive profession to get into? it seems kind of like being sore losers... when you lose a game of monopoly and suddenly you hate the people who beat you... 😕 obviously not all dents are like this... but all the ones who talk in these threads are.

 

[unoriginal]

I don't know but this whole thing is getting out of hand.

Good luck and best wishes!

psychedoc2b

Don't worry about these guys psychedoc2b... they seem to have "short person" (aka inferiority complex) disease. Because they did not have the stats to get into medical school they now feel the need to bash the profession. This is the whole reason why they started this thread and why many of them have made up alternate names and various stories.

 

[aphistis]

why is it that dents always feel they have to defend their profession? does it really matter that dentists aren't considered physicians and it is a less competitive profession to get into? it seems kind of like being sore losers... when you lose a game of monopoly and suddenly you hate the people who beat you... 😕 obviously not all dents are like this... but all the ones who talk in these threads are.

Right. How dare we enter the hallowed halls of the allo forum to participate in a discussion about our own profession? I tell you, peasant health care professions these days just don't venerate their feudal superiors the way they ought to. 🙄

Anyway, getting back to the original discussion...

 

[coffeeluver]

And others would rather write 25 Toprol prescriptions a day?

Absolutely, there are plenty of physicians who frequently save lives. But you know as well as I do that this charade, that grasping patients back from the brink of death's gaping maw is something all, or even most, physicians do on a daily basis, is ridiculous.

You don't think a FP helping to control diabetes, hypertension, asthma, etc. on a daily basis isn't a matter of helping to save patients' lives? Don't try to belittle the field of medicine just so you can fool yourselves into believing that dentistry is in any way as noble a profession. I'm sick and tired of dent students going in here and yapping/bragging away at how they can make all that dough with going through the years of residency. Well you know what? Glad you guys aren't in medicine. We don't want money hungry and undevoted people in our field anyways. There are people (gasp) that do want to spend those extra residency years just so they can learn/hone the skills necessary to save patients.

Go learn your molars and incisors and leave the life saving up to us. 😀

 

[aphistis]

You don't think a FP helping to control diabetes, hypertension, asthma, etc. on a daily basis isn't a matter of helping to save patients' lives? Don't try to belittle the field of medicine just so you can fool yourselves into believing that dentistry is in any way as noble a profession. I'm sick and tired of dent students going in here and yapping/bragging away at how they can make all that dough with going through the years of residency. Well you know what? Glad you guys aren't in medicine. We don't want money hungry and undevoted people in our field anyways. There are people (gasp) that do want to spend those extra residency years just so they can learn/hone the skills necessary to save patients.

Go learn your molars and incisors and leave the life saving up to us. 😀

I figured you'd respond with something like this. I'd link to some articles on the relationships between dental & systemic health, but I'm not naive enough to think you'd read them.

Whenever one of the high-&-mighty pre-med/MS1 set starts with this garbage about how motivated they are to save lives, I'm tempted to ask why they never considered working at a car plant installing seat belts. 🙄

What people like you, coffeeluver, would discover for yourselves if you could only let go of your insecurities long enough to give your "inferiors" the benefit of the doubt once in a while, is that most of us will be as quick to correct overestimations of what we do as underestimations. When I'm treating patients, I know what I'm equipped to treat & what I'm not. I don't get off on giving patients cut-rate medical management so I can stroke my ego at their expense, and no other dentist or clinical dental student I know does either. If someone screens positive for HTN, diabetes, or any number of countless other systemic conditions that manifest in the mouth, they don't leave my operatory without an appropriate med referral in hand. What terrifies *me* is the thought of someone with the hubris to think she can recognize, diagnose, & treat everything under the sun just because her prescription pad says ", M.D." next to the signature line. A reputable degree doesn't make a knowledgeable doctor; knowledgeable doctors are what make the degree reputable.

The most telling part of this whole us-vs-them is that it becomes steadily less pronounced as dentists & physicians progress through their careers. Pretentious pre-dents are caught up in telling pretentious pre-meds that dentists are just as knowledgeable as physicians, and the pre-meds are just as intent on making sure the pre-dents stay down in the mud where they belong. Out in practice, though, for the most part we're all just doing our jobs; you know a lot of things we don't, and we know some things you don't. I hope you save all the lives you need to feel validated once you get out in practice, if that's what it takes; but what I hope for even more is that by the time you've gotten to that point, being a physician has become simply "what I do," rather than "who I am." Good luck to you.

 

[WestCoast]

You don't think a FP helping to control diabetes, hypertension, asthma, etc. on a daily basis isn't a matter of helping to save patients' lives?

well, i guess you can consider treating chronic diseases as saving lives.... albeit not immediately life threatning. then you can argue that practically all health care professionals save lives. eventually..

 

[Long Dong]

You can't specially compare derm to a general GP...its like comparing oranges to apples. A GP has 4 years of schooling, while Derm is 8 years. A better comparison would be between a Derm(highly competitive to get a spot) and Dental Specialists(difficult to get into as well).




Found this on the derm forums:
Average Salary/Average Hours Worked

1. Ortho 335.8/54.1 = $119.4/hr
2. Path 246.5/41.6 = $114.0/hr
3. Rad (Diag)/Rad Onc 327.7/58.5 = $107.7/hr
4. Optho 229.2/43.7 = $100.9/hr
5. Derm 219.5/42 = $100.5/hr

I didn't know pathologist made that much for hours worked.

 

[coffeeluver]

I figured you'd respond with something like this. I'd link to some articles on the relationships between dental & systemic health, but I'm not naive enough to think you'd read them.

Whenever one of the high-&-mighty pre-med/MS1 set starts with this garbage about how motivated they are to save lives, I'm tempted to ask why they never considered working at a car plant installing seat belts. 🙄

What people like you, coffeeluver, would discover for yourselves if you could only let go of your insecurities long enough to give your "inferiors" the benefit of the doubt once in a while, is that most of us will be as quick to correct overestimations of what we do as underestimations. When I'm treating patients, I know what I'm equipped to treat & what I'm not. I don't get off on giving patients cut-rate medical management so I can stroke my ego at their expense, and no other dentist or clinical dental student I know does either. If someone screens positive for HTN, diabetes, or any number of countless other systemic conditions that manifest in the mouth, they don't leave my operatory without an appropriate med referral in hand. What terrifies *me* is the thought of someone with the hubris to think she can recognize, diagnose, & treat everything under the sun just because her prescription pad says ", M.D." next to the signature line. A reputable degree doesn't make a knowledgeable doctor; knowledgeable doctors are what make the degree reputable.

The most telling part of this whole us-vs-them is that it becomes steadily less pronounced as dentists & physicians progress through their careers. Pretentious pre-dents are caught up in telling pretentious pre-meds that dentists are just as knowledgeable as physicians, and the pre-meds are just as intent on making sure the pre-dents stay down in the mud where they belong. Out in practice, though, for the most part we're all just doing our jobs; you know a lot of things we don't, and we know some things you don't. I hope you save all the lives you need to feel validated once you get out in practice, if that's what it takes; but what I hope for even more is that by the time you've gotten to that point, being a physician has become simply "what I do," rather than "who I am." Good luck to you.

Wow, why are you so bent over this? Glad to know you know when to refer patients because you'd be sued and lose your license if you didn't. It doesn't take your inferior self (you insisted I call you this) to tell me physicians should do the same ...that's what med school's for. In case you didn't know, there's a hippocrates oath we had to take before med school which states we will only implement and prescribe treatment only when we are sure our ability and judgement are most beneficial to our patients. It's basically instilled in us that it's okay to say " I don't know" so don't go assuming we didn't know this.

Please stop all this assuming and think we have so much egos. Hint: I'm doing this to rattle you and it's working. ...but I don't care if you do, it's rather fun. People get defensive when they know there's a hint of truth to something and it hurts their OWN egos. Dentistry is a good lifestyle, but I'd be so 😴 doing it. To each his own.

BTW, I applied for the job of installing seat belts, but they didn't accept me. 🙁

 

[rouge et noir]

What do you call someone who failed out of (couldnt get in to) med school? A Dentist...

uhm...I'm actually pretty sure that the only people who say those type of things are med students.

The public perception is "If I have a problem with my skin, I got to a dermatologist. If my kids are sick I go to the pediatrician. If my mouth is bad I go to the dentist. All are doctors."

I have NEVER heard someone say that dentists are "fake" doctors, or that they just weren't smart enough to get into med school outside of people in the medical profession that is.

 

[rouge et noir]

Wow, why are you so bent over this? Glad to know you know when to refer patients because you'd be sued and lose your license if you didn't. It doesn't take your inferior self (you insisted I call you this) to tell me physicians should do the same ...that's what med school's for. In case you didn't know, there's a hippocrates oath we had to take before med school which states we will only implement and prescribe treatment only when we are sure our ability and judgement are most beneficial to our patients. It's basically instilled in us that it's okay to say " I don't know" so don't go assuming we didn't know this.

Please stop all this assuming and think we have so much egos. Hint: I'm doing this to rattle you and it's working. ...but I don't care if you do, it's rather fun. People get defensive when they know there's a hint of truth to something and it hurts their OWN egos. Dentistry is a good lifestyle, but I'd be so 😴 doing it. To each his own.

BTW, I applied for the job of installing seat belts, but they didn't accept me. 🙁

For the record, I'm a medical student.

When a FP checks out a patients mouth and notices problems with the patients teeth, he tells the patient to see a dentist.

When I read your posts cofeeluver, I don't see someone who's just rattling someone for "fun".

 

[toofache32]

You do need a DDS or DMD?

psychedoc2b

yes.