If dentistry was a medical specialty...

[columbia2009]

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how many of you would seriously consider it? This would include dental specialities like OMFS, Endo, Ortho, Pedo, Proths. I can understand why some of you would say you would get sick of looking at mouths all day, but that can be said with urologist, ob/gyn, GI, dermatologist, opthlamologist (with their respective crevices/body area).

I am asking this because many pre-med/med students enter medical school thinking they want to help people, cure the world, "make a difference", but why is it that the most competitive residencies are lifestyle ROAD and plastics? If dentistry was not seperate, would it also be as competitive? I believe dentist make a decent salary with normal work hours, similar to dermatologist and opthlamologist.

What do you think?

 

[Hoo\/er]

Dentistry is far superior to medicine if you want lifestyle and money. You graduate in four years and can start making nice cash without a residency. I have a friend who graduated from dental school just last year and he's already landed a nice job working four 10 hour days per week for around $170k.

 

[D30417995]

$170k????! Wow!

Doctors in residency (even after residency for some specialties) don't make half of that plus far more working hours per week!

 

[mackie]

I still don't think I'd be interesting in doing dentistry, but I'm sure it would become very competitive and become one of the more "prestigious" specialties. I'd bet money on it. 😉

 

[ramonaquimby]

I still don't think I'd be interesting in doing dentistry

same here....looking at mouths all day -- eek!!! you couldn't pay me enough. i'm not trying to be crude, but i'd take ANY of the previously mentioned crevices ANY day over mouths. dentristry and podiatry are SO NOT FOR ME...it's not even funny, lol....

 

[columbia2009]

same here....looking at mouths all day -- eek!!! you couldn't pay me enough. i'm not trying to be crude, but i'd take ANY of the previously mentioned crevices ANY day over mouths. dentristry and podiatry are SO NOT FOR ME...it's not even funny, lol....

even penises, vaginas, anuses, and eyeballs? Rectal exams and pap smears....YUMMM!! (licks lips 360 degrees)

I can't do feet, so I'm with you on that 😱

 

[D30417995]

forensic pathology over dentistry?

 

[columbia2009]

forensic pathology over dentistry?

do I get a badge and gun?

 

[Orange Julius]

how many of you would seriously consider it? This would include dental specialities like OMFS, Endo, Ortho, Pedo, Proths. I can understand why some of you would say you would get sick of looking at mouths all day, but that can be said with urologist, ob/gyn, GI, dermatologist, opthlamologist (with their respective crevices/body area).

I am asking this because many pre-med/med students enter medical school thinking they want to help people, cure the world, "make a difference", but why is it that the most competitive residencies are lifestyle ROAD and plastics? If dentistry was not seperate, would it also be as competitive? I believe dentist make a decent salary with normal work hours, similar to dermatologist and opthlamologist.

What do you think?

The only thing you list that's appealing to me is OMFS. The rest seem just as dull to me as the "lifestyle ROAD" medicine specialties you mention. I disagree that plastics doesn't help people. Sure, we jokingly refer to it as "skin dentistry" but reconstructive operations and even some cosmetic procedures make very profound differences in peoples lives. Dentistry school doesn't seem to me like it would be interesting because of the limited range of subject. But then again, I know nothing about Dentistry school and exactly what it is you study there. Hope this helps.


BTW, I had no idea why you were talking about ortho untill I realized you meant orthodontics.

 

[NileBDS]

The only thing you list that's appealing to me is OMFS. The rest seem just as dull to me as the "lifestyle ROAD" medicine specialties you mention. I disagree that plastics doesn't help people. Sure, we jokingly refer to it as "skin dentistry" but reconstructive operations and even some cosmetic procedures make very profound differences in peoples lives. Dentistry school doesn't seem to me like it would be interesting because of the limited range of subject. But then again, I know nothing about Dentistry school and exactly what it is you study there. Hope this helps.


BTW, I had no idea why you were talking about ortho untill I realized you meant orthodontics.

Hey meds, sorry to burst your bubble, but dentistry infact was seperated due to it being too intense to be studied as a medical "specialty" and due to evergrowing dental research, and realizing the significance of head & neck anomolies/pathology to the rest of body.
Dentistry is not "medicine for teeth", as understated by it's title. It should more appropriately be called head and neck. Sure we do some plastic teeth here and there and put in some fillings. Anyways, if you would like to know anything else about dental cirriculums, I would be glad to shed some light.
And hell yes ! We have regular hours, 3 day weekends and seldomly on call (OMFS maybe).
By the way, OMFS is feircly competitive and requires a 4+ year residnecy (if you're good enough) following dental school.
In addition, regular dental graduates are qualified to perform limited head and neck plastic/reconstructive surgery in some states with no further training due to their extensive knowledge, training and preparedness in the head and neck arena.

Thanks.

 

[billclinton]

how many of you would seriously consider it? This would include dental specialities like OMFS, Endo, Ortho, Pedo, Proths. I can understand why some of you would say you would get sick of looking at mouths all day, but that can be said with urologist, ob/gyn, GI, dermatologist, opthlamologist (with their respective crevices/body area).

I am asking this because many pre-med/med students enter medical school thinking they want to help people, cure the world, "make a difference", but why is it that the most competitive residencies are lifestyle ROAD and plastics? If dentistry was not seperate, would it also be as competitive? I believe dentist make a decent salary with normal work hours, similar to dermatologist and opthlamologist.

What do you think?

The point your missing is that the mouth is boring. Much different than the eye or reproductive organs... less complicated and less things going on too. This is why most people prefer medicine over dentistry. I dont think dentistry would be a ROAD speciality because the money just isn't there like it is for the ROAD specialities (avg 300-400k and higher). Dentistry averages about 20-30k under the lowest paid medical speciality (family doc) at around the same amount of hours.

Although the hours are good and the pay is decent (damn good considering the average salary in the US), the salary is more than half that of the ROAD specialities and pretty boring to the avg person.

With that said, the dental surgical specialities/subspecialities that are available to maybe the top 4-5% of dental grads would probably be lifestyle specialies. Their salary tends to be 300-400k for 40 hours week. Damn good, but very competitive to get into.

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos072.htm
http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos074.htm

 

[billclinton]

Hey meds, sorry to burst your bubble, but dentistry infact was seperated due to it being too intense to be studied as a medical "specialty" and due to evergrowing dental research, and realizing the significance of head & neck anomolies/pathology to the rest of body.
Dentistry is not "medicine for teeth", as understated by it's title. It should more appropriately be called head and neck. Sure we do some plastic teeth here and there and put in some fillings. Anyways, if you would like to know anything else about dental cirriculums, I would be glad to shed some light.
And hell yes ! We have regular hours, 3 day weekends and seldomly on call (OMFS maybe).
By the way, OMFS is feircly competitive and requires a 4+ year residnecy (if you're good enough) following dental school.
In addition, regular dental graduates are qualified to perform limited head and neck plastic/reconstructive surgery in some states with no further training due to their extensive knowledge, training and preparedness in the head and neck arena.

Thanks.

Dear Troll:

Sorry to burst your bubble but you're wrong. Dentistry was never formally part of medicine or medical school. Perhaps, you should do some research before making up stories. I found that the ADA website (that is the American Dental Association) has a timeline of dentistry on their website:

http://www.ada.org/public/resources/history/timeline_19cent.asp

Although dentists may be trained to recognize many different head and neck pathologies, it are actual physicians that treat the majority of these diseases.
The majority of a dentist's day is spent with the teeth.

 

[guest]

"Dentistry averages about 20-30k under the lowest paid medical speciality (family doc) at around the same amount of hours."

I don't think that statement is true. My upperclassman friends started at the median stated in your link. They just graduated and now they're getting faster and her boss just put her on commission as a christmas gift. She'll be making more than her initial 125k now. She hasn't even been out a year yet.

"The point your missing is that the mouth is boring. Much different than the eye or reproductive organs... less complicated and less things going on too."

Some of us find the mouth interesteing and there are things going on inside the tooth.

 

[guest]

"Dentistry averages about 20-30k under the lowest paid medical speciality (family doc) at around the same amount of hours."

I don't think that statement is true. My upperclassman friends started at the median stated in your link. They just graduated and now they're getting faster and her boss just put her on commission as a christmas gift. She'll be making more than her initial 125k now. She hasn't even been out a year yet.

She works from 8-5, 4 days a weel.

"The point your missing is that the mouth is boring. Much different than the eye or reproductive organs... less complicated and less things going on too."

Some of us find the mouth interesteing and there are things going on inside the tooth.

 

[billclinton]

"Dentistry averages about 20-30k under the lowest paid medical speciality (family doc) at around the same amount of hours."

I don't think that statement is true. My upperclassman friends started at the median stated in your link. They just graduated and now they're getting faster and her boss just put her on commission as a christmas gift. She'll be making more than her initial 125k now. She hasn't even been out a year yet.

She works from 8-5, 4 days a weel.

"The point your missing is that the mouth is boring. Much different than the eye or reproductive organs... less complicated and less things going on too."

Some of us find the mouth interesteing and there are things going on inside the tooth.

Well, remember that those are averages and medians. It doesn't mean that automatically every dentist will make 125k and only that. It is going to vary by location and experience among other things. Some will be higher and some will be lower. As for the website, the US Department of Labor - Bureau of Labor Statistics (established and run by the government). It is quite accurate.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Why would it make a difference whether or not dentistry was considered a medical field?

 

[NileBDS]

Dear Troll:

Sorry to burst your bubble but you're wrong. Dentistry was never formally part of medicine or medical school. Perhaps, you should do some research before making up stories. I found that the ADA website (that is the American Dental Association) has a timeline of dentistry on their website:

http://www.ada.org/public/resources/history/timeline_19cent.asp

Although dentists may be trained to recognize many different head and neck pathologies, it are actual physicians that treat the majority of these diseases.
The majority of a dentist's day is spent with the teeth.

Hello Bill

For starters, I find it condescending of you to address me as "Troll". I also find it very unprofessional of you, but then again, I don't expecting much on these forums.
Secondly, in reply to a previous post of yours, you can check out these links and compare for yourself incomes of general denstists and family (i'm assuming unspecialized) physicians.
Medical earnings
http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos074.htm#earnings
Dental earnings
http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos072.htm#earnings
OMFS graduates receive double qualification. Did you know that too ? DMD/MD or DDS/MD. So you figure out the rest.

Now read this little passage please, and tell me where it says "Dental Department of the Baltimore Medical College, founded in 1895".

The present dental school evolved through a series of consolidations involving the Baltimore College of Dental Surgery, founded in 1840; Maryland Dental College, founded in 1873; the Dental Department of the University of Maryland, founded in1882; and the
Dental Department of the Baltimore Medical College, founded in 1895.
The final consolidation took place in 1923, when BCDS and the Dental Department of the University of Maryland were combined to create a distinct college of the university under state supervision and control.
http://www.dental.umaryland.edu/aboutBCDS/history.html

On a seperate note, I am actually a dentist. I graduated from Egypt, and am currently seeking licensure in the USA.
Now, FYI, dental school was initially a medical specialty, just as any of the ones you seek today, specially in Europe and the rest of the world. The USA is not the only country involved in medicine or dentistry.
I do not make up stories as you would like to speculate. Do your research, and read some more about medical and dental school affiliations beyond your borders.

Great. Now all that aside, I have great respect for physicians. My sister is one, and my brother is in his last year of medical school. I definately respect their career decisions, and they do mine.
We all are engaged in a noble field of health professionals, and should act accordingly. It's not about who makes more, but rather in how we can all work together to serve our communities better.

 

[molarama]

Why would it make a difference whether or not destistry was considered a medical field?

Agreed. No point to this thread.

 

[WestCoast]

In addition, regular dental graduates are qualified to perform limited head and neck plastic/reconstructive surgery in some states with no further training due to their extensive knowledge, training and preparedness in the head and neck arena.

I don't know what you mean by this, if by dentists you mean OMFS, then yes, they do perform head/neck surgery. but all other field of dentistry, including general dentistry, do not do head and neck surgery. i can say this, becaue i am an OMFS resident.

 

[columbia2009]

b/c some people just want the MD. Why do you think the post competitive specialities are ROAD? Do you seriously think people enter medical school wanting to be a dermatologists all their life? If derm was its own school with no MD, I believe less people would apply to it.

 

[NileBDS]

I don't know what you mean by this, if by dentists you mean OMFS, then yes, they do perform head/neck surgery. but all other field of dentistry, including general dentistry, do not do head and neck surgery. i can say this, becaue i am an OMFS resident.

First of all, I am glad for you being able to accomplish a great goal of many dental graduates, gaining a position in OMFS res. program. I am sure you are qualified.
I would also advise you to check out this one page pdf file.
http://www.agd.org/consumer/resources/AGD3.pdf#search='procedures%20performed%20by%20general%20dentist'
I did not say that general dentists perform head and neck surgery period. I said that general dentists are "qualified to perform limited head and neck plastic/reconstructive surgery in some states". Can you argue that statement ? And if so, please do.
Do general dentists not have the training and expertise to perform limited head and neck surgeries with no further training ?

 

[mackie]

b/c some people just want the MD. Why do you think the post competitive specialities are ROAD? Do you seriously think people enter medical school wanting to be a dermatologists all their life? If derm was its own school with no MD, I believe less people would apply to it.

👍

 

[billclinton]

b/c some people just want the MD. Why do you think the post competitive specialities are ROAD? Do you seriously think people enter medical school wanting to be a dermatologists all their life? If derm was its own school with no MD, I believe less people would apply to it.

Missing the point again. Derm averages twice that of dentists with same hours. This is what makes it the lifestyle speciality. The skin is the largest organ in the body; more variety than dentistry if you take a deeper look. I know a few girls at my school that are going to med school to be dermatologists. They are the type that really care about their looks and seem to really like skin- 2 of them even worked as cosmotologists for a number of years. Are there people who go into it just for the lifestyle? of course. The point is that not everyone does. I mean c'mon, if people would enter dentistry to be dentists all their life, then there has to be people who enter med school to be dermatologists.

 

[Selznick]

I said that general dentists are "qualified to perform limited head and neck plastic/reconstructive surgery in some states".

Really? My dentist has to refer me out for root canal work. Apparently that was beyond the scope of his abilities. I can't see him perfoming surgery. In fact I have NEVER heard of a Dentist (not an OMFS) performing surgery. Can you give a few examples of this?

 

[ncalcate]

Well, remember that those are averages and medians. It doesn't mean that automatically every dentist will make 125k and only that. It is going to vary by location and experience among other things. Some will be higher and some will be lower. As for the website, the US Department of Labor - Bureau of Labor Statistics (established and run by the government). It is quite accurate.

I can definitely understand why you'd want to trust the US DOL. But remember those numbers include everyone: associates right out of school, academic dentists, dentists who only work 2 days a week, etc. So the numbers are skewed downward, and don't really reflect what a dentist who works a 40 hour per week in private practice really makes.

There's a wealth of data published by the ADA that is more accurate. Here is just one of them:

http://www.ada.org/prof/ed/careers/infopaks/practice.pdf (page 2)

For dentists in their first year of running their private practice, average salary was $166,000. And that data is from 2002. And of course a dentist who has owned his/her practice for 5 years will be making a lot more than that, mostly because he/she will have stabilized his/her overhead and other items. I don't know how much an average Family Practitioner makes, but I'm inclined to believe it is less. But correct me if I am wrong - I don't have a link so I can't verify it.

 

[billclinton]

First of all, I am glad for you being able to accomplish a great goal of many dental graduates, gaining a position in OMFS res. program. I am sure you are qualified.
I would also advise you to check out this one page pdf file.
http://www.agd.org/consumer/resources/AGD3.pdf#search='procedures%20performed%20by%20general%20dentist'
I did not say that general dentists perform head and neck surgery period. I said that general dentists are "qualified to perform limited head and neck plastic/reconstructive surgery in some states". Can you argue that statement ? And if so, please do.
Do general dentists not have the training and expertise to perform limited head and neck surgeries with no further training ?

Well, it's obvious english is not your first language. I would hardly call pulling teeth and cuttings gums "head and neck surgery". It's even a stretch to call it mouth surgery, but that term fits better. Why are you trying to convince yourself that general dentists are head and neck surgeons? They're not. That speciality is reserved for otolaryngologists (MD).

On a side note... I thought OMFS was the abbreviation for Oral, Maxillofacial Surgery? I guess I can see how it could be grouped under Head and Neck surgery, but that would be like calling a podiatrist a leg surgeon.... or like calling a psychologist a psychiatrist...

 

[size_tens]

I agree with the op. If dentistry were a medical specialty it would be among the most desireable fields. Forget conventional wisdom: the average dentist in private practice now outearns the average family doc or pediatrician in private practice, while working less hours. IMO being a primary care doc in a community practice wouldn't be all that exciting in terms of medical complexity. That leaves the prestige of being a "real doctor" as the only tangible advantage a family doc has over a dentist. If dentistry were a medical specialty the prestige factor would be gone.

 

[NileBDS]

Actually you're right Bill. English is not my first language, and if you read closely above, you will see that I graduated from Egypt. Is that a subject of ridicule or citicism ? Now lets see how strong your second language (if any) is.
Pulling teeth and cutting gums is not head and neck surgery. I agree. And I never claimed it to be. It is just one more sign of your very limited knowledge of the scope of dental medicine/surgery. And I have no intentions on correcting that here. That will take much longer.
Examples of head and neck surgery performed by general dentists may include (but are not limited to):
Oral and dentoalveolar surgery (impacted and buried teeth, cysts …)
Preprosthetic surgery (bone augmentation …)
Dental implants (to replace missing teeth or stabilise dentures; rehabilitation of patients having undergone surgery for tumours; to retain facial prostheses)
TMJ
Aesthetic facial surgery

I am not trying to convince myself of anything. I made the decision to persue dentistry and not medicine a long time ago. I never said general dentists were OMFSs'. They are not. I said they are "qualified to perform limited head and neck plastic/reconstructive surgery in some states". Define limited. Define plastic/reconstructive.
Why are you so sensitive and so very insecure to this whole issue ?

 

[billclinton]

I can definitely understand why you'd want to trust the US DOL. But remember those numbers include everyone: associates right out of school, academic dentists, dentists who only work 2 days a week, etc. So the numbers are skewed downward, and don't really reflect what a dentist who works a 40 hour per week in private practice really makes.

There's a wealth of data published by the ADA that is more accurate. Here is just one of them:

http://www.ada.org/prof/ed/careers/infopaks/practice.pdf (page 2)

For dentists in their first year of running their private practice, average salary was $166,000. And that data is from 2002. And of course a dentist who has owned his/her practice for 5 years will be making a lot more than that, mostly because he/she will have stabilized his/her overhead and other items. I don't know how much an average Family Practitioner makes, but I'm inclined to believe it is less. But correct me if I am wrong - I don't have a link so I can't verify it.

If you read the data I included a little more carefully you would see that the average work week was 40 hrs/week. The reason the ADA data is skewed is for the same reason any data collected by surveys is skewed: People who make more are more likely to report.

Perhaps you are familiar with the website MD Applicants. It is a site where medical students can most what schools they got into and what MCAT/GPA they had. Of course, it lists the avg MCAT/GPA to be much higher than it is because 1) People lie 2) People with higher stats are more likely to report. You can get a more accurate representation from data from a non-biased source (i.e. AAMC). Same goes with the ADA- it's a biased source.

Given this, you can also go to the AMA's website and they will list THe avg physician's salary higher than what is listed on the DOL's website. The fact of the matter is that the best way to compare 2 sets of data is by looking at unbiased source that looked at both sets of data. You see- it's not important what the actual salary numbers are- just how they compare. DOL lists avg physician salary low as well.

 

[Selznick]

Aesthetic facial surgery

This one's gonna be fun. 👍

 

[NileBDS]

Really? My dentist has to refer me out for root canal work. Apparently that was beyond the scope of his abilities. I can't see him perfoming surgery. In fact I have NEVER heard of a Dentist (not an OMFS) performing surgery. Can you give a few examples of this?

Your dentist refers you out for "complex" root canal cases, as any informed professional would. It is not beyond his scope of abilities, but maybe beyond the reaches of his malpractice insurance policy.

Examples of surgeries which maybe performed by general dentists are:
Oral and dentoalveolar surgery (impacted and buried teeth, cysts …)
Preprosthetic surgery (bone augmentation …)
Dental implants (to replace missing teeth or stabilise dentures; rehabilitation of patients having undergone surgery for tumours; to retain facial prostheses)
TMJ
Aesthetic facial surgery

What are your qualifications anyways ?

 

[Unemployed]

Missing the point again. Derm averages twice that of dentists with same hours.

You can't specially compare derm to a general GP...its like comparing oranges to apples. A GP has 4 years of schooling, while Derm is 8 years. A better comparison would be between a Derm(highly competitive to get a spot) and Dental Specialists(difficult to get into as well).

If you read the data I included a little more carefully you would see that the average work week was 40 hrs/week. The reason the ADA data is skewed is for the same reason any data collected by surveys is skewed: People who make more are more likely to report.

Perhaps you are familiar with the website MD Applicants. It is a site where medical students can most what schools they got into and what MCAT/GPA they had. Of course, it lists the avg MCAT/GPA to be much higher than it is because 1) People lie 2) People with higher stats are more likely to report. You can get a more accurate representation from data from a non-biased source (i.e. AAMC). Same goes with the ADA- it's a biased source.

Given this, you can also go to the AMA's website and they will list THe avg physician's salary higher than what is listed on the DOL's website. The fact of the matter is that the best way to compare 2 sets of data is by looking at unbiased source that looked at both sets of data. You see- it's not important what the actual salary numbers are- just how they compare. DOL lists avg physician salary low as well.

Found this on the derm forums:
Average Salary/Average Hours Worked

1. Ortho 335.8/54.1 = $119.4/hr
2. Path 246.5/41.6 = $114.0/hr
3. Rad (Diag)/Rad Onc 327.7/58.5 = $107.7/hr
4. Optho 229.2/43.7 = $100.9/hr
5. Derm 219.5/42 = $100.5/hr

6. Neurosurg/plastics 275.2/59.6 = $88.8/hr
7. Urology 264.5/57.4 = $88.6/hr
8. Surg (gen) 263.7/58.2 = $87.1/hr
9. Anesth 244.7/58.7 = $80.2/hr
10. ENT 214.5/52.1 = $79.2/hr

11. OB/GYN 227/55.7 = $78.4/hr
12. EM 197.1/50 = $75.8/hr
13. Neurology 183.1/53.7 = $65.6/hr
14. Psych 145.7/44 = $63.7/hr
15. IM 164.1/55.6 = $56.8/hr

16. FP 146.5/50.7 = $55.6/hr
17. Peds 137.8/49.4 = $53.6/hr

http://medicine.wustl.edu/~residenc...pec/byspec.html
Source: Physician Socioeconomic Statistics. c. 2003 Edition, American Medical Association

What is a dentist's average net income?

The average net income for an independent private practitioner who owned all or part of his or her practice in 2002 was $174,350 for a general practitioner and $291,250 for a specialist. For more information on this topic, see Survey of Dental Practice - Income from the Private Practice of Dentistry.

Source: http://www.ada.org/ada/prod/survey/faq.asp American Dental Association

I don't know what you mean that Derms make twice as much as Dentist/Specialist. My sources are directly from the AMA and ADA, so if both professions report higher salaries than usual---wouldn't it average out?

 

[Doctor Bagel]

b/c some people just want the MD. Why do you think the post competitive specialities are ROAD? Do you seriously think people enter medical school wanting to be a dermatologists all their life? If derm was its own school with no MD, I believe less people would apply to it.

I have serious pity for a person who would be happier as a dentist who yet opts to be doctor just to brag about having an MD. What a tool!

 

[Doctor Bagel]

I agree with the op. If dentistry were a medical specialty it would be among the most desireable fields. Forget conventional wisdom: the average dentist in private practice now outearns the average family doc or pediatrician in private practice, while working less hours. IMO being a primary care doc in a community practice wouldn't be all that exciting in terms of medical complexity. That leaves the prestige of being a "real doctor" as the only tangible advantage a family doc has over a dentist. If dentistry were a medical specialty the prestige factor would be gone.

Spoken like someone who doesn't know many primary care doctors. Another benefit, maybe not so tangible, is that a primary care doctor might prefer the variety/human interaction, etc. over being a dentist. You don't evaluate jobs purely on salary and prestige, and if you do, you're looking to be miserable.

 

[Unemployed]

I have serious pity for a person who would be happier as a dentist who yet opts to be doctor just to brag about having an MD. What a tool!

Couldn't agree more with ya.

Spoken like someone who doesn't know many primary care doctors. Another benefit, maybe not so tangible, is that a primary care doctor might prefer the variety/human interaction, etc. over being a dentist. You don't evaluate jobs purely on salary and prestige, and if you do, you're looking to be miserable.

Are you telling me dentist/specialists don't have patient interaction? Well that's news to me. I deeply respect all physicians and dentist, but to tell me a PCP sees a high intellectually variety of cases is a bit off. My cousin is a family practicioner and he says the majority of he's cases are colds, vacs, high bp/cal, etc. When he sees something too complicated, he always refers out. He's bread and butter is seeing as many patients as possible within a 10 hour day.

 

[billclinton]

while i will admit you have a good point and that derm's salary probably isn't double that of a the avg dentists, i tend to think the ADA is really skewed on their data. You check out any salary survey or data out there it is much lower than what the ADA reports. I was first skeptical because I know a few dentists who have been practicing for a few years now and they aren't making that yet. While, if you look at other salary surveys they are all pretty close to what the AMA reports. With that aside (not that it really matters to argue this anymore because there is no point... but for the sake of arguing some stupid topic like this...):
(I had not seen the data about derms from the AMA)
http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/...de=&pagenumber=&zipcode=&metrocode=&x=18&y=17
http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/...de=&pagenumber=&zipcode=&metrocode=&x=14&y=11


Either way you look at it, there is a considerable gap (50-70k)

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Are you telling me dentist/specialists don't have patient interaction? Well that's news to me. I deeply respect all physicians and dentist, but to tell me a PCP sees a high intellectually variety of cases is a bit off. My cousin is a family practicioner and he says the majority of he's cases are colds, vacs, high bp/cal, etc. When he sees something too complicated, he always refers out. He's bread and butter is seeing as many patients as possible within a 10 hour day.

You're right -- those probably weren't the best examples of the differences between the two jobs. But there are differences that make one person enjoy dentistry and another enjoy primary care medicine, and I don't think they're purely related to money or prestige.

 

[Dr. Pedo]

Well, remember that those are averages and medians. It doesn't mean that automatically every dentist will make 125k and only that. It is going to vary by location and experience among other things. Some will be higher and some will be lower. As for the website, the US Department of Labor - Bureau of Labor Statistics (established and run by the government). It is quite accurate.

Hey there slick willie! Sorry couldn't let it slide!


Anyway, this thread caught my eye on the way to the dental residency forum. It is amazing the lack of business sense we as health care providers display---- I was fortunate before becoming a dentist to be a small business owner, which helped me learn some important concepts. Let me clear something up that is an important fact.

The US Dept of Labor can ONLY ACCURATELY estimate the income of employees and wage earners. They openingly disclose they cannot estimate the money made by the self-employed and/or business owners. Dentists (90%+) are business owners first and foremost------- we make money so we can pay our employees money. The US Dept of Labor has NO IDEA what 90%+ of the dentists earn (thank heaven's 😀 )for the same reason they don't have any idea what a gas station, restaurant, or small business owner makes!

The salaries they do have for dentists are of the dentists employed by government healthcare facilities (Clinics, hospitals, state and federal prisons, etc...) our lowest of the lowest paid dentists.

The bottom-line is money is relative: if anyone went into medicine or dentistry strictly to make lots of money; they have absolutely no business/financial sense. Money is the by-product for all of us doing what we love; nobody in their right mind would spend $200k, 4-7 years minimum making no money, only to learn how to make $200K and work 50+ a week. 😱

Back to the dental forums!
Good luck to everyone,
Dr. Pedo

__________________________________
Never argue with an idiot; they'll bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

 

[exmike]

You guys are missing a huge point. If dentistry was a medical specialty, it would then fall under medical care and be subject to the same problems with managed care and doctor compensation that is so pervasive today in medicine. Dentistry has maintained a fair degree of distance from the tentacles of managed care because it is not considered "health care" under many definitions. Ever notice how dental coverage is separate from medical coverage. Or how people often forgo dental insurance and pay cash? Dentistry still operates more like medicine did before the managed care era. Relatively large numbers of cash patients and fee for service style insurance.

If dentistry ever got folded into medicine and was subject to the cruel sword of medicare set reimbursement rates (off which many PPOs set their fee schedules) and managed care, im sure the pay would would fall dramatically.

 

[Pir8DeacDoc]

Does anyone really give two ****s about this?

 

[BayesianDoc]

Hello Bill
Secondly, in reply to a previous post of yours, you can check out these links and compare for yourself incomes of general denstists and family (i'm assuming unspecialized) physicians.

Unlike general dentists family physicians are specialized. You will be hard pressed to find many physicians in practice who did not complete a residency.

 

[NileBDS]

Thank you for correcting my information raptor. As indicated, it was my personal assumption.

 

[Hoya11]

If dentistry was a medical specialty, it would be VERY popular. I agree that the mouth and teeth are no different than some other area like urology. I just think there would be SO much interest in it, and SO much demand for dentists, compared to any other individual specialty, that it wouldnt make sense to lump it with medicine. Like 30% of new MDs would be going into this one field? Why not just have another school for it where they just focus on dentisty to make it more efficient and meet the huge demand? Dentistry his just too big of a field compared to a single medical specialty field, and just too different enough from medicine that it requires a different school altogether. Thats my .02

 

[billclinton]

Your dentist refers you out for "complex" root canal cases, as any informed professional would. It is not beyond his scope of abilities, but maybe beyond the reaches of his malpractice insurance policy.

Examples of surgeries which maybe performed by general dentists are:
Oral and dentoalveolar surgery (impacted and buried teeth, cysts …)
Preprosthetic surgery (bone augmentation …)
Dental implants (to replace missing teeth or stabilise dentures; rehabilitation of patients having undergone surgery for tumours; to retain facial prostheses)
TMJ
Aesthetic facial surgery

What are your qualifications anyways ?

I don't mean to be harsh, but the signal to me of english being a second language was the misunderstanding (lack of reading comprehension) of the context of these words. However, you speak english better than i speak my second languages. Also, perhaps if you were a little more familiar with the US you would know that general dentists do not perform surgeries- or at least what we consider to be surgeries. If anything, they would be called minor surgeries. Also, they would not be considered head and neck technically. To be more precise they would be considered minor oral surgeries/procedures. I highly doubt aesthetic facial surgery is performed that often by dentists... in the US we have plastic surgeons that do this. Do you have any examples of this facial surgery? Everything else you listed above is basically fancy terms for 'pulling teeth'. Head and Neck surgeries are done by MD's: ENTs (Ear Nose and Throat Doctors.. aka otolarygnologists... google it). So just remember, in the US you will not be performing surgeries as a dentist unless you further specialize.
[english lesson complete]

 

[NileBDS]

I don't mean to be harsh, but the signal to me of english being a second language was the misunderstanding (lack of reading comprehension) of the context of these words. However, you speak english better than i speak my second languages. Also, perhaps if you were a little more familiar with the US you would know that general dentists do not perform surgeries- or at least what we consider to be surgeries. If anything, they would be called minor surgeries. Also, they would not be considered head and neck technically. To be more precise they would be considered minor oral surgeries/procedures. I highly doubt aesthetic facial surgery is performed that often by dentists... in the US we have plastic surgeons that do this. Do you have any examples of this facial surgery? Everything else you listed above is basically fancy terms for 'pulling teeth'. Head and Neck surgeries are done by MD's: ENTs (Ear Nose and Throat Doctors.. aka otolarygnologists... google it). So just remember, in the US you will not be performing surgeries as a dentist unless you further specialize.
[english lesson complete]

You are not harsh at all Bill. Frankly, I find you comments to be very subtle.
I understand your premature conclusion of me not being aware of dental practice guidelines in the US of A (english being my second language), but as a matter of fact, as I stated previously, I am actively persuing licensure in the united states (where I was born by the way). I have sucessfully passed my national board exams, both part 1 and 2, which would be equivalent to step 1 and 2 USMLE. In addition, I have been working full time as an expanded function dental assistant in several dental offices in the United States for 3 years now. I also used to volunteer frequently at the OMFS dept. at University of Florida. So I believe I am very qualified to make these statements.

I also have come to the conclusion that this thread has drifted away from the subject in matter, and I will cease to respond to any future comments unless relevant. It has become more of a waste of time for me if anything.
I appreciate the time you took out of your schedule to mentor my english skills. You are too nice.
Thanks.

 

[psychedoc2b]

how many of you would seriously consider it? This would include dental specialities like OMFS, Endo, Ortho, Pedo, Proths. I can understand why some of you would say you would get sick of looking at mouths all day, but that can be said with urologist, ob/gyn, GI, dermatologist, opthlamologist (with their respective crevices/body area).

I am asking this because many pre-med/med students enter medical school thinking they want to help people, cure the world, "make a difference", but why is it that the most competitive residencies are lifestyle ROAD and plastics? If dentistry was not seperate, would it also be as competitive? I believe dentist make a decent salary with normal work hours, similar to dermatologist and opthlamologist.

What do you think?

I hate teeth. However, I do agree that cosmetic dentistry makes good money. However, no matter how much money one offers me to do dentistry, I would not do it. To me, at least, money can't buy happiness but does pay for the bills though. I think that plastics can make a difference if it can improve the appearance and self-confidence of an individual. That is, repairing a cleft lip, removing disfiguring tumors or scars, making an individual look more acceptable by society's standards. I know this sounds superficial but let's face it: our society is superficial.

I am glad, mind you, that I never had to focus on teeth or gums, which is probably why mine are rotting.But to the point,while I am glad that I never had to study teeth /gums in depth, I hope that since you are in dentistry that you won't have to study the pelvis/ rectum area. I'd rather do a rectal exam than do an oral exam on kids who won't open their mouths let alone bite down on your fingers.

psychedoc2b

 

[footcramp]

the appeal of medicine has always been about prestige. if dentistry was a medical specialty i have no doubt that it would be one of the most sought after residencies, even surpassing derm. if derm wasn't a medical specialty with the associated prestige there is no way in hell that the best and brightest would go into it. when it comes down to it, people want prestige first, money/lifestyle second. once they have the prestige they go for the money/lifestyle. it's not rocket science.

 

[fun8stuff]

the appeal of medicine has always been about prestige. if dentistry was a medical specialty i have no doubt that it would be one of the most sought after residencies, even surpassing derm. if derm wasn't a medical specialty with the associated prestige there is no way in hell that the best and brightest would go into it. when it comes down to it, people want prestige first, money/lifestyle second. once they have the prestige they go for the money/lifestyle. it's not rocket science.

for some people medicine may be about prestige, but these people will soon be disappointed. contrary to this line of thinking, a good amount of people are actually attracted to medicine to help people. yes, you can help people in dentistry, just not to the same extent and not in the same ways. i don't think i could go into derm, but i know i would sure as hell do that over dentistry. Would you rather work in the mouth or the skin? Seems like a no brainer....

 

[psychedoc2b]

the appeal of medicine has always been about prestige. if dentistry was a medical specialty i have no doubt that it would be one of the most sought after residencies, even surpassing derm. if derm wasn't a medical specialty with the associated prestige there is no way in hell that the best and brightest would go into it. when it comes down to it, people want prestige first, money/lifestyle second. once they have the prestige they go for the money/lifestyle. it's not rocket science.

I don't think that the best and the brightest go into derm. I believe path,nephro, ophtho, ENT demand much more knowledge than derm. May be people who go into derm have the highest board scores but this does not mean that they are the best and the brightest in medicine. I also don't believe that if dentistry were a medical specialty that people would necessarily be drawn towards it. Prestige and lifestyle are important issues but they are not the only reasons why people choose their specialties. The brightest med students I knew at school did not go into derm. They went into neuro at Mass Gen. , IM at Johns Hopkins, IM at Mass Gen, and IM at the Mayo Clinic. They chose these specialties because they were sincerely interested in them and not just for the prestige and lifestyle. Some of the students who went into derm were students like you say were really into making the big bucks but were not necessarily the brightest and the best of the medical school though. Maybe derm attracts some students who are good at taking the boards and want a relatively easy lifestyle while making good money. However, I don't think that the best and brightest only go into derm. I don't know if there is much prestige associated with derm outside of medicine. I mean who is more important to you: someone who saves your life or someone who just popped your zits.

Also, dentistry would never have the same appeal as derm. Like you said, it's hard to get into derm. However, I see dentists who have offices in every shopping center and almost every block. I think that dentistry cannot be compared to derm but maybe to family medicine. I have nothing against family med since I myself considered going into it. But, it is well known that family med is really not that difficult to get into now.

psychedoc2b

 

[WestCoast]

Well, it's obvious english is not your first language. I would hardly call pulling teeth and cuttings gums "head and neck surgery". It's even a stretch to call it mouth surgery, but that term fits better. Why are you trying to convince yourself that general dentists are head and neck surgeons? They're not. That speciality is reserved for otolaryngologists (MD).

On a side note... I thought OMFS was the abbreviation for Oral, Maxillofacial Surgery? I guess I can see how it could be grouped under Head and Neck surgery, but that would be like calling a podiatrist a leg surgeon.... or like calling a psychologist a psychiatrist...

this is very amusing. do you even know what you are talking about? last time i checked, oral and maxillofacial surgery wasn't under head and neck surgery. it is a dental specialty. and fyi, ent's call us all the time to help them out in their trauma cases. do i call them when i have cancer cases? of course. the two are different and both needed. why don't you stop bashing on other people and get your own facts straight. by the way, i am a dentist by training. duh. i guess if you have problem with being operated by a "dentist" then it'll be your loss if you ever get some sort of facial trauma, 'cause i for one, and as many of the er physicians would agree, wouldn't want my face to be operated by ent or plastics if i ever get my face smashed.