If DO degree's went MD would DO schools as a true alternative vanish?

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Then they shouldn't have split off in the first place :shrug: IMO this logic is backwards. The only thing that will result in no need to explain to patients is if the degree is MD. MDO still requires explanation to the same degree as DO does. I just don't see an argument here that doesnt seem like a sham covering for some other motive.

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Oh no you misunderstood me, I am definitely not a proponent for MDO.

Haha well back in the day, it seemed logical to split off from the experimental-system that were the MDs..you know..the whole mercury and blood-leeching thing... But when evidence-based medicine was found, that was when the AOA should have merged with AMA... but we shouldn't go down hypotheticals and what-ifs...that's just worthless banter hah.
 
So why not just go to an MD school if the need to avoid such explanations is so important to you?

How often is this lack of public knowledge an issue for you?

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Thinking back, maybe I should have. But I didn't. I chose based primarily on location and family needs at the time. I was unaware at that time how much lack of public knowledge would affect opportunities such as academic positions, publishing and even private practice as in private practice it can affect how many patients will come to see you since either they don't know what you are or they think you're going to crack their neck.
 
And as for me, and my opinion on the topic. I say leave things the way they are, both degrees are already on a level playing field in terms of practice rights, pay, and to a lesser extent ability to specialize of desired, what more is needed?

My experience, while limited obviously to my own encounters with patients, has been that patients who don't know the difference between MD and DO, don't care about any difference in letters. Hell, they usually think the Medical Assistant is a doctor.

99% of the time if they even notice the difference in initials and ask what DO stands for, a quick explanation that there are two degrees that lead to the title of Physician is all anyone needs. Anything more than that and their eyes gloss over and you can tell they're not listening anymore anyway.

Additionally, the vast majority of patients who do know the differences will usually say they prefer DO's or even go as far as to say they seek DO's out or will only see DO's when given the choice.

But on the whole, the overwhelming majority see stethoscope and assume doctor. They don't care about crap like this so why fuss over it?


You were doing ok for yourself until you reached up deep within your rectum and pulled out this feculent gem.
 
😕

I made the disclaimer that this is in my experience. Do you deny that these things happen? Not sure what you're getting at here.

You can't honestly be this obtuse. Is this one of those Candid Camera things? [or "Punk'd", for you younger whippersnappers]
 
There is definitely a lack of public knowledge of DO's but honestly, it really doesn't matter. Just do what you do and be happy. I have never had a patient comment or care.

I will say that I had a very "DO" moment today when called to the floor for a patient with left sided paresthesias. With the patient's hx of stroke I was quite concerned. However, upon evaluating her it became clear that she was in muscle spasm. I asked her if she had had flexeril before and she relayed that it made her very loopy. I was wondering what to do when a little light went off in my head. I thought the nurse was going to **** a brick when I started doing a little soft tissue work on the patient(yes I am a general surgery intern, I couldn't believe myself as I started doing OMT). To my and the patient's relief the paresthesias/pain went away. It does make me wonder if an MD could have provided the same relief in this situation. Not trying to start any drama, just sayin'...

Survivor DO
 
I would have no problem with all DOs becoming MDs. I just think a degree that kind of sounds like MD but really isn't needlessly complicates things.

As for how I have time for this--I'm coasting until graduation. I haven't seen a patient since February. Hell, I'm not even in the US right now.
 
I would have no problem with all DOs becoming MDs. I just think a degree that kind of sounds like MD but really isn't needlessly complicates things.

As for how I have time for this--I'm coasting until graduation. I haven't seen a patient since February. Hell, I'm not even in the US right now.

LOL! Explains the "end-stage senioritis". That's awesome, how did you make that happen?
 
There is definitely a lack of public knowledge of DO's but honestly, it really doesn't matter. Just do what you do and be happy. I have never had a patient comment or care.

I will say that I had a very "DO" moment today when called to the floor for a patient with left sided paresthesias. With the patient's hx of stroke I was quite concerned. However, upon evaluating her it became clear that she was in muscle spasm. I asked her if she had had flexeril before and she relayed that it made her very loopy. I was wondering what to do when a little light went off in my head. I thought the nurse was going to **** a brick when I started doing a little soft tissue work on the patient(yes I am a general surgery intern, I couldn't believe myself as I started doing OMT). To my and the patient's relief the paresthesias/pain went away. It does make me wonder if an MD could have provided the same relief in this situation. Not trying to start any drama, just sayin'...

Survivor DO

I just feel really uncomfortable with OMT. I hear OMT and think lawsuit (some people simply don't want to be touched like that); I don't think I could ever be comfortable utilizing it. I wonder how many DO's that tried OMT have run into patients that objected to this approach.

"When appropriate, OMT can complement, and even replace, drugs or surgery. In this way, OMT brings an important dimension to standard medical care."

http://www.osteopathic.org/osteopathic-health/treatment/Pages/default.aspx
 
I just feel really uncomfortable with OMT. I hear OMT and think lawsuit (some people simply don't want to be touched like that); I don't think I could ever be comfortable utilizing it. I wonder how many DO's that tried OMT have run into patients that objected to this approach.

"When appropriate, OMT can complement, and even replace, drugs or surgery. In this way, OMT brings an important dimension to standard medical care."

http://www.osteopathic.org/osteopathic-health/treatment/Pages/default.aspx
OMT is a procedure. You must establish verbal consent before you do it. An absolute contraindication to OMT is lack of patient understand (that you're going to be doing it).

Just like you don't have the right to place your hands on someone on the street, you don't have that right in an exam room as a physician.
 
I just feel really uncomfortable with OMT. I hear OMT and think lawsuit (some people simply don't want to be touched like that); I don't think I could ever be comfortable utilizing it. I wonder how many DO's that tried OMT have run into patients that objected to this approach.

"When appropriate, OMT can complement, and even replace, drugs or surgery. In this way, OMT brings an important dimension to standard medical care."

http://www.osteopathic.org/osteopathic-health/treatment/Pages/default.aspx

I would agree with this. Not for all conditions, of course, but something such as CLBP I would say yes.
 
I just feel really uncomfortable with OMT. I hear OMT and think lawsuit (some people simply don't want to be touched like that); I don't think I could ever be comfortable utilizing it. I wonder how many DO's that tried OMT have run into patients that objected to this approach.

"When appropriate, OMT can complement, and even replace, drugs or surgery. In this way, OMT brings an important dimension to standard medical care."

http://www.osteopathic.org/osteopathic-health/treatment/Pages/default.aspx

You just gotta ask. Do you just barge into the room and do a rectal? No, you ask first. It's always good form to tell your patients exactly what you are about to do and why "Okay I am going to listen to your lungs to hear if your wheezing has improved... I'm going feel your abdomen to feel if the distention has gone down..." Common sense and courtesy will get you a long way.

Survivor DO
 
You just gotta ask. Do you just barge into the room and do a rectal? No, you ask first. It's always good form to tell your patients exactly what you are about to do and why "Okay I am going to listen to your lungs to hear if your wheezing has improved... I'm going feel your abdomen to feel if the distention has gone down..." Common sense and courtesy will get you a long way.

Survivor DO

That is true, and legally the patient can always decline. Back when I was in grad school for Psych, ethics was always weaved into everything. An interesting notion is that people often don't realize that they can say no.

In various psychological experiments tons of mental and emotional harm was done because the the participants never knew that they could decline (specific populations such as children and the elderly often require a guardian to provide consent as they may not have the ability to understand the circumstance and provide consent).

You are absolutely right about common sense however a lot of people will simply go along with things because they don't realize they can say no. The notion of common sense being equal among all is not balanced. Believe it or not if you simply tell people to do something, in more cases than not they will simply do it without ever questioning why they are being told to do it.

A rectal is an extreme case; while it is good form to always tell your patients what you are doing and why, I think (solely my opinion) many Doctors simply tell their patients what they are doing; but they don't necessarily ask. I think asking is often implied with telling but I don't think they are the same.
 
It's not like we ask patients to take off their shirt and start feeling around for a dysfunctional rib without permission or explanation... or better yet just go straight for a pelvic diaphragm release 😉 That's not how it works!
 
It's not like we ask patients to take off their shirt and start feeling around for a dysfunctional rib without permission or explanation... or better yet just go straight for a pelvic diaphragm release 😉 That's not how it works!


My professor didn't mention it until AFTER I agreed to be her patient for lab that day. 😡
 
omm is literally another language to me. i was thinking i should take a class! i find it a little dubious that i can never really google some of these things and find adequate sources explaining them though
 
omm is literally another language to me. i was thinking i should take a class! i find it a little dubious that i can never really google some of these things and find adequate sources explaining them though
I don't think they necessarily explain them, but if you google "ACOFP OMM Videos" you should be able to find demonstrations online. You can at least see the techniques after agreeing to only do them if trained to.
 
Ok perhaps I was a bit too brief in my post above. But you don't have to travel very far in this forum to see that there are real differences in the quality of clinical year experience/education between MD and DO schools, and that's where the real problem is.

Again this is only one school specifically, but the DO school that sends students to my hospital to do their "core clerkships" is doing its students a HUGE disservice. Their experience is nothing at all like my clerkships, and I went to a pretty average, middle of the road MD school.

Their core Medicine clerkship consists of 4-8 weeks of basically shadowing an intern/attending pair on rounds (and they do not pre-round ever, never arrive earlier than 7AM, maybe write one note if they're more advanced/competent students, etc) . . . and these rounds are not exactly academic rounds. There is almost no learning for them, at least that would take place at a third year student's pace/level. A usual exchange between intern and attending might be as follows:

Intern: "So I put Mr. Smith (a 76 year old demented patient) on Ativan PRN for when he gets agitated."
Attending: "I would switch that to haldol actually, but check his EKG first."

Two extremely important learning points were covered right there (avoiding benzos in the elderly and haldol's [and other antipsychotics'] danger of prolonging the QT). Most of that is already understood by the intern and the attending, and the student is left there to wonder what exactly was going on there (even if he indeed understands those basic concepts, how can he be sure there isn't more he's missing?)

I realize that's a very specific example, but it's how things are run at my hospital, a "core Medicine clerkship" for DO students (it's a small community hospital).

Even worse, one of the most consistent traits I see among the DO students who rotate through my hospital is a complete inability to actually BE A MEDICAL STUDENT. An average non-med student who has read the first few pages of First AID for the Wards could likely perform better than these students, at least for the first week or two. Having never been a part of a teaching hospital, there is just no understanding of how the med student - resident - attending world of interactions occurs. Whereas in most MD schools that have teaching hospitals (so, basically all) it's just a fact that students on inpatient services come in early (sometimes earlier than the intern) to round on their patients (plural, mind you) and write notes and present the patients and their proposed treatment plan to the attending on rounds, this natural daily occurrence just isn't present in smaller non-academic hospitals. They are two very different worlds.


I honestly feel bad for some of the DO students who come to my hospital, because they're paying more for med school than I did and they are getting shafted by their school, big time.

I am a 3rd year EM resident in an Osteopathic program. My rotations during medical school do not reflect your experience of all.

Following your logic,

My home institution sees 70,000 pts through the ED per year, however there are a few services we don't have so we get sent a major university center down the road a couple of hours.

While there we get to spend a few months rubbing elbows with the MD EM residents there. Per my n=1 observation, I met a couple of 2nd and 3rd years that were kind of bad. They can't reduce a trimalar on their own, intubate using direct laryngoscopy, comprehend the ancef and open fracture connection, etc.

I guess that means all allopathic emergency medicine residency programs are subpar. I honestly feel bad for some of the MD EM residents, they are getting shafted by their programs, big time
 
I am a 3rd year EM resident in an Osteopathic program. My rotations during medical school do not reflect your experience of all.

Following your logic,

My home institution sees 70,000 pts through the ED per year, however there are a few services we don't have so we get sent a major university center down the road a couple of hours.

While there we get to spend a few months rubbing elbows with the MD EM residents there. Per my n=1 observation, I met a couple of 2nd and 3rd years that were kind of bad. They can't reduce a trimalar on their own, intubate using direct laryngoscopy, comprehend the ancef and open fracture connection, etc.

I guess that means all allopathic emergency medicine residency programs are subpar. I honestly feel bad for some of the MD EM residents, they are getting shafted by their programs, big time

U mad
 
What would MDO even stand for, anyhow? Medical Doctor of Osteopathy? I thought DOs were trying to get away from the "osteopathy" label.

I'm well aware that there is virtually no difference in how MDs and DOs practice. My preceptor for my month of FM was a DO in a practice that is exclusively DOs, and I didn't see anything done differently than a MD would have.

And relabeling MDs as "Doctor of Allopathic Medicine" is unacceptable unless the chiropractors get to pick a new name for the DO degree.


Yes, Medical Doctor of Osteopathy. For a Medical Doctor that is trained from an Osteopathic School.

MDO is a more accurate designation precisely because we are doctors of Medicine and not strictly Osteopathy.

This would make more clear to the public who we are , what we are trained in and what we do.

I know the pre-meds and medical students here are often more resistant to this because they do not yet see that this would also be more clear to the public as I was not yet at that stage. But after speaking with other DO residents I can assure you, I am by no means the only one in favor of this more accurate degree title change.

The vast majority of DOs I have spoken with who are post residency - who practice medicine (FM, Peds, IM, ED, Neuro) respond to me when mentioning this change with something like "that makes total sense". I have spoken with one DO who practices solely OMM and he said he did not think such a change is really necessary.
 
With so many different experiences among Residents/Attending's and the ultra competitive nature of medicine in general, I will simply be happy getting into a school that is in the right location and meets my socioeconomic needs while maintaining a good reputation. After this thread I just don't care anymore what letters appear at the end of my name; just as long as they are there and I can work towards my specific specialty. When you have nurse practitioners who can work independently of Physicians in some states and PA's that can open a practice (though technically they still must have a supervising Physician), a Physician is a Physician. If you weren't capable of passing your exams then you wouldn't be allowed to practice medicine. If a patient doesn't understand the DO after your name, then you simply explain it to them. I remember seeing DO on a prescription once and getting freaked out because I wasn't sure if they would allow me to fill it (yes I know silly however I didn't know any better a few months ago) yet I happily got my prescriptions refilled by my Nurse Practitioners and PA's.

A lack of education is no reason for a lack of ignorance though. Most patients will never know the difference and the one's that do, you simple explain it them. The AOA needs to do a better job of educating the public on DO's. I think there honestly should be an alternative such as MD.O for those that want the option; this way the O is separated and can be seen as an additional specialty however in the end it doesn't really matter. Physician is Physician; half of the pre-meds upset over this topic may not even apply to Med school (yes I stated the honest truth); while the other half will either get into an MD program; DO program or give up entirely.

Anyone crazy enough to forgo medicine entirely because they are so concerned about the initials after their name do not belong in a U.S. medical school (they belong oversea's so that when they return to the U.S. with their wonderful $200,000 MD degree and start having trouble with licensing, hey it doesn't matter because they still have MD after their name). I would rather graduate from a U.S. medical school and easily become a licensed practicing Physician than commit to uncertainty by going oversea's; end up with tons of debt; come back to the U.S. and experience difficultly verifying that I met licensing requirements and on top of that have trouble getting into a residency. How crazy does it really sound when you have someone earning $100k (or having that earning potential) but worrying about the initials tagged on to their name.
 
With so many different experiences among Residents/Attending's and the ultra competitive nature of medicine in general, I will simply be happy getting into a school that is in the right location and meets my socioeconomic needs while maintaining a good reputation. After this thread I just don't care anymore what letters appear at the end of my name; just as long as they are there and I can work towards my specific specialty. When you have nurse practitioners who can work independently of Physicians in some states and PA's that can open a practice (though technically they still must have a supervising Physician), a Physician is a Physician. If you weren't capable of passing your exams then you wouldn't be allowed to practice medicine. If a patient doesn't understand the DO after your name, then you simply explain it to them. I remember seeing DO on a prescription once and getting freaked out because I wasn't sure if they would allow me to fill it (yes I know silly however I didn't know any better a few months ago) yet I happily got my prescriptions refilled by my Nurse Practitioners and PA's.

A lack of education is no reason for a lack of ignorance though. Most patients will never know the difference and the one's that do, you simple explain it them. The AOA needs to do a better job of educating the public on DO's. I think there honestly should be an alternative such as MD.O for those that want the option; this way the O is separated and can be seen as an additional specialty however in the end it doesn't really matter. Physician is Physician; half of the pre-meds upset over this topic may not even apply to Med school (yes I stated the honest truth); while the other half will either get into an MD program; DO program or give up entirely.

Anyone crazy enough to forgo medicine entirely because they are so concerned about the initials after their name do not belong in a U.S. medical school (they belong oversea's so that when they return to the U.S. with their wonderful $200,000 MD degree and start having trouble with licensing, hey it doesn't matter because they still have MD after their name). I would rather graduate from a U.S. medical school and easily become a licensed practicing Physician than commit to uncertainty by going oversea's; end up with tons of debt; come back to the U.S. and experience difficultly verifying that I met licensing requirements and on top of that have trouble getting into a residency. How crazy does it really sound when you have someone earning $100k (or having that earning potential) but worrying about the initials tagged on to their name.



beBrave, thank you for sharing that. You reminded me there of myself before starting medical school and sometimes I lose sight of that perspective. It is very true that every one of us in a DO or MD program, residency or career should be very happy to have made it to where we are, to be doing what we want to do and to have the earning potential we do.

By debating in favor of a degree change such as MDO, sometimes I think people assume that I am not grateful for my education or proud of what I have accomplished. That is not the case. I am proud of my education. I have toiled and stayed up all hours of nights, I have sacrificed and I have loved learning all that I have and love even more using what I have learned with my patients.

" I think there honestly should be an alternative such as MD.O for those that want the option; this way the O is separated and can be seen as an additional specialty however in the end it doesn't really matter. Physician is Physician; half of the pre-meds upset over this topic may not even apply to Med school (yes I stated the honest truth); while the other half will either get into an MD program; DO program or give up entirely. "

I in no way would advocate for someone to forgo a career in medicine over worry over initials but I really thank you for your honesty here. Many are too afraid to be honest on this topic for fear of being attacked and accused of being flawed or not having enough pride and such so again, I thank you.

When I argue in favor of adding an M to the designation it has nothing to do with any of those previous points. When I argue for the M in the title it is because I want every opportunity possible to make a difference in Medicine and for it to be clear that it is Medicine that I am a doctor of. It is a symbolic representation of what is important to us as doctors, what our education emphasizes and what we are experts in, Medicine not just Osteopathy.
 
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