If I write about this, will...

[HawaiiMedMan]

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Hola,

For my personal statement, I think I am heavily basing it on two mission trips to Guatemala. Is that something they are used to and get bored with, or something that is good? And also, in all honesty, I do want to be a doctor to help people, but I feel like everyone says that, I'm just trying to figure out how to say it to where they know I mean it. Know what I mean? haha

Thanks for any help.

 

[NickNaylor]

They've heard it all before - yes, including your inspirational, truly unique mission trip. Do your best to answer the "why medicine?" question. Use evidence (i.e., your activities and experiences) to substantiate your assertions. Don't try and be emotional or dramatic. You most likely won't be.

 

[MissMed]

Hola,

For my personal statement, I think I am heavily basing it on two mission trips to Guatemala. Is that something they are used to and get bored with, or something that is good? And also, in all honesty, I do want to be a doctor to help people, but I feel like everyone says that, I'm just trying to figure out how to say it to where they know I mean it. Know what I mean? haha

Thanks for any help.

Stories about mission trips may be something adcoms are used to seeing, but I think the way you write about what the trips mean to you is way more important than the plain fact that you participated in those trips in the first place. If the trips were a significant experience to you, it will come across in your writing. Reading a PS that exudes genuine passion will probably be refreshing to adcoms who are used to seeing people who participate in those trips just to build their resume.

Good luck

 

[Starlightembers]

Hola,

For my personal statement, I think I am heavily basing it on two mission trips to Guatemala. Is that something they are used to and get bored with, or something that is good? And also, in all honesty, I do want to be a doctor to help people, but I feel like everyone says that, I'm just trying to figure out how to say it to where they know I mean it. Know what I mean? haha

Thanks for any help.

Missions trips and how they are viewed by adcoms have been discussed on this board before. Though I am no expert (Read: Not on an Adcom. Not LizzyM) and would encourage you to wait until others respond (Read: LizzyM, etc) before you decide what to do, this is what I have been able to gather from those threads:

• They have seen it a lot. It doesn't stand out as unique (in fact, it has been parodied).

• • At best, it usually comes across as cliche and uninteresting.
  • At worst, it is considered unethical (click, click) as, not only do (most of) these trips do damage to the countries they occur in, pre-meds are often allowed to do things they would not be allowed to do in the states (Why subject them to lesser care?)

• If you are going to include it, make sure that, when writing about what you did there, you would have been allowed to do all of it had you been volunteering with patients in the states (see a tweet from UMich's twitter account).

• If you are going to include it, make sure you don't stray from "Why Medicine?" How did this trip influence or solidify your decision to enter the profession? Be sincere.
• If you are going to include it, be realistic about what happened (unless it included doing things you would not have been allowed to do here; however, if it does, you probably shouldn't be writing about it in the first place) and don't be overly dramatic. You are a pre-med. Not a Paul Farmer-Mother Teresa hybrid.

Edit: Selected LizzyM quotes from the linked threads:

It doesnt look good. It looks like tourism. In fact, it is worse than tourism because it usually involves handouts which undermine the development of self-sufficiency. At least tourists buy things and stimulate the economy.

Do we have no people in need of assistance here? The fact that you performed a procedure that requires a license to perform in the US will not impress us.

Good thread here:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=587185&page=2

starting at post 34 is best.

Unless houses stop buring down and people stop having chest pain in your little corner of the world, how is going somewhere else to do something somewhat helpful a plus on your application or a benefit to society? It costs money to travel, the carbon footprint involved in a short-term trip is enormous, and you don't really need the clinical exposure/experience over what you already have. Go away and broaden your horizens but don't buy into the notion that you have to do a "medical mission trip", particularly if you are not motivated by a religious impulse (the mission in medical mission trip).

I think it would be far better to do language immersion, backpack someplace interesting, camp in the back country (if that floats your boat), visit big cities here or abroad and soak up some culture (classical music, art, food), even do a roadtrip to visit all the National League baseball parks or something like that.

If you need to have something "altruistic", a short medical mission is a little too short. Better to get involved with something "back home" whether it is tutoring little kids, illiterate adults, working with the elderly or mentally ill or with scouting.

 

[LilKangaroo]

There's nothing WRONG with writing your personal statement about your mission trip. Yes, it has been seen before; but if it was really important to forming your passion for medicine, you should write about it.

Keep in mind that you are applying to U.S. medical schools that are training you for the purpose of practicing in the U.S. You should also write about your U.S.-based clinical experiences and focus on why you want to practice medicine in the U.S.in your personal statement IMO.

 

[KLycos]

They have read it all before, no matter what you think is special it isn't. So what do you do? You write from the heart about why you are interested in medicine.

 

[Sophocles]

This is completely crazy. I don't know who LizzyM truly is but this is beyond rational. I understand the points being made but to turn this altruistic event into something that is negative is asinine. Write about what you want to write about. If this is so that the adcoms will get to know you then how can someone tell YOU what to write about? This by default means that you are writing what someone else wants you to write about. Constructive criticism is great, especially if they ask for it, but don't tear someone down because you have some eccentric view and think that you are the god of pre-med student doctor forum (not directed at anyone in particular).

 

[Starlightembers]

This is completely crazy. I don't know who LizzyM truly is but this is beyond rational. I understand the points being made but to turn this altruistic event into something that is negative is asinine. Write about what you want to write about. If this is so that the adcoms will get to know you then how can someone tell YOU what to write about? This by default means that you are writing what someone else wants you to write about. Constructive criticism is great, especially if they ask for it, but don't tear someone down because you have some eccentric view and think that you are the god of pre-med student doctor forum (not directed at anyone in particular).

LizzyM is a medical school faculty member who serves on her school's adcom; this has been verified by SDN.
UMich's Twitter account is maintained by their admissions office and committee.

You are correct, however, in stating that she only represents one school; UMich also only represents one (their own) school. So, OP, I suppose you could argue that her (their) advice could/should be taken with a grain of salt. It is worth noting, however, that even the AAMC (Association of American Medical Colleges) has spoken out against how many of these trips are run. I will try to find that document for you.

Furthermore, nobody here is "tearing someone down" -- at least, not that I can see. I am just restating what has been said elsewhere (and providing links so the OP can see where I am getting it from). Other posters are both doing the same and, for some of them, speaking from their own experience. LizzyM volunteers her time to provide guidance. She isn't God, no; however, she is more knowledgeable than most of us given her position. That is all.

Of course, however, OP is free to write about whatever he wants. SDN can only provide a starting point and one is free to take or leave what can be found on here. Also note that nobody was telling the OP not to write about the medical mission trips; just suggesting ways on how to include it and how adcoms may view it.

Edit: Here is that release by the AAMC.

 

[NickNaylor]

This is completely crazy. I don't know who LizzyM truly is but this is beyond rational. I understand the points being made but to turn this altruistic event into something that is negative is asinine. Write about what you want to write about. If this is so that the adcoms will get to know you then how can someone tell YOU what to write about? This by default means that you are writing what someone else wants you to write about. Constructive criticism is great, especially if they ask for it, but don't tear someone down because you have some eccentric view and think that you are the god of pre-med student doctor forum (not directed at anyone in particular).

LizzyM is an admissions committee member at a top 25 school. Obviously that's only one opinion, but it's no less valid.

I think the concern is that medical missions trips tend to be done by affluent pre-med students that have the resources to spend thousands of dollars to use locals in a third world country as guinea pigs for their "training." Obviously I'm painting with broad strokes, but in many cases this is true. If your "medical missions" trip consisted of nothing more than paying $3000 to stay in a hotel for two weeks giving vaccines to people, then I would question the applicant's authenticity when it comes to medical missions. If, on the other hand, your experience had significantly more depth to it, then it would probably be significantly more powerful.

There are plenty of opportunities to do medical service in the US. There are almost certainly opportunities to serve in your local community. That begs the wuestion: why would you pay to go abroad to "serve" when you could just as easily do that in your hometown? I would challenge anyone to come up with a non-superficial answer to that question.

 

[Sophocles]

LizzyM is a medical school faculty member who serves on her school's adcom; this has been verified by SDN.
UMich's Twitter account is maintained by their admissions office and committee.

You are correct, however, in stating that she only represents one school; UMich also only represents one (their own) school. So, OP, I suppose you could argue that her (their) advice could/should be taken with a grain of salt. It is worth noting, however, that even the AAMC (Association of American Medical Colleges) has spoken out against how many of these trips are run. I will try to find that document for you.

Furthermore, nobody here is "tearing someone down" -- at least, not that I can see. I am just restating what has been said elsewhere (and providing links so the OP can see where I am getting it from). Other posters are both doing the same and, for some of them, speaking from their own experience. LizzyM volunteers her time to provide guidance. She isn't God, no; however, she is more knowledgeable than most of us given her position. That is all.

Of course, however, OP is free to write about whatever he wants. SDN can only provide a starting point and one is free to take or leave what is on here.

I'm not arguing who she is or is not. Although, I would be interested in seeing who validated this information (any information is appreciated).... Regardless, someone that is stupid enough to brag about some illegal unethical procedures that they performed in other countries truly should not be applying to medical schools (of course this is my opinion). But, I'm a Christian and I do believe that some people are meant to go to other countries and serve the underprivileged, and to insinuate that this is wrong because there are other people in our country who need help, is a moral issue that can be debated either way. If someone gives some definitive philosophical advice as if they have it all figured out, then I have to become extremely cynical. Without getting into a theological debate, the point of the matter is that this is an extremely subjective and variable process and the advice given in this forum needs to be monitered a little bit more aggressively. For the sake of argument let us say that out of the whole admissions committee one person disagrees with a certain aspect of a person's application, who is to say that everyone else will agree with them? I say write about what means a lot to you! If that's a mission trip, than by all means write it, and anyone that says not to write something because they don't agree with it is giving bad advice. I do agree with giving parameters and advice on how to write it but to flat out say don't do it because I don't like it, is just plain dumb!👎

 

[Sophocles]

This kid never said anything about writing in his PS some illegal procedure that he performed.. Please stop writing about this since this is not relevant in this case.. And, I'm also a adcom in a top 2 medical school. Now I am going to create another account and say that I know and validate who I am. Or, I actually have a family member who is a mod that can vouche for me. Not saying that this is the case but damn way to many people put emphasis on what one person says. And yes, if you take ANY statistics course, the fact that it is only one person does discredit this persons view. Now, I have gone to LizzyM for advice because I believe that she has a great amount of knowledge but I don't worship the ground she walks on either!

 

[xXIDaShizIXx]

At worst, it is considered unethical (click, click) as, not only do (most of) these trips do damage to the countries they occur in, pre-meds are often allowed to do things they would not be allowed to do in the states (Why subject them to lesser care?)

👍 I have never understood the "if you believe what we do we will keep you from dying of starvation".

 

[Sophocles]

At worst, it is considered unethical (click, click) as, not only do (most of) these trips do damage to the countries they occur in, pre-meds are often allowed to do things they would not be allowed to do in the states (Why subject them to lesser care?)

👍 I have never understood the "if you believe what we do we will keep you from dying of starvation".

Do you guys understand what a missions trip is? Seems as if a lot of ignorant opinionated people are writing things that are not even relevant!

 

[Sophocles]

LizzyM is a medical school faculty member who serves on her school's adcom; this has been verified by SDN.
UMich's Twitter account is maintained by their admissions office and committee.

You are correct, however, in stating that she only represents one school; UMich also only represents one (their own) school. So, OP, I suppose you could argue that her (their) advice could/should be taken with a grain of salt. It is worth noting, however, that even the AAMC (Association of American Medical Colleges) has spoken out against how many of these trips are run. I will try to find that document for you.

Furthermore, nobody here is "tearing someone down" -- at least, not that I can see. I am just restating what has been said elsewhere (and providing links so the OP can see where I am getting it from). Other posters are both doing the same and, for some of them, speaking from their own experience. LizzyM volunteers her time to provide guidance. She isn't God, no; however, she is more knowledgeable than most of us given her position. That is all.

Of course, however, OP is free to write about whatever he wants. SDN can only provide a starting point and one is free to take or leave what can be found on here. Also note that nobody was telling the OP not to write about the medical mission trips; just suggesting ways on how to include it and how adcoms may view it.

Edit: Here is that release by the AAMC.

Good find with the AAMC report. Thanks.

 

[Starlightembers]

I'm not arguing who she is or is not. Although, I would be interested in seeing who validated this information (any information is appreciated)....

Click.

Regardless, someone that is stupid enough to brag about some illegal unethical procedures that they performed in other countries truly should not be applying to medical schools (of course this is my opinion).

It may not be something that is obviously illegal to the applicant, especially they are being encouraged by whatever group of physicians they are with. That is why it is often brought up in these threads. Anyone who has volunteered in the US knows how restrictive the rules regarding patient contact are. The same rules should apply to trips abroad; however, they often do not.

But, I'm a Christian and I do believe that some people are meant to go to other countries and serve the underprivileged, and to insinuate that this is wrong because there are other people in our country who need help, is a moral issue that can be debated either way.

It's not wrong because there are those in need back home, per se, though -- as medical schools exist to train physicians to serve in the US -- adcoms do want to see domestic volunteer experience. It is wrong because the way these trips are often structured leave the country no better off (and, sometimes, worse off) and frequently allow people to step outside their scope of practice.

If someone gives some definitive philosophical advice as if they have it all figured out, then I have to become extremely cynical. Without getting into a theological debate, the point of the matter is that this is an extremely subjective and variable process and the advice given in this forum needs to be monitered a little bit more aggressively.

First, all philosophical advice is inherently subjective as there is no way to objectively prove if something is moral or not (ie, it is not a science).

That said, how much more aggressively would you like them to monitor it? It's a public forum. The fact that they verify faculty members is above and beyond what most message boards do.

For the sake of argument let us say that out of the whole admissions committee one person disagrees with a certain aspect of a person's application, who is to say that everyone else will agree with them?

What would happen would depend on a lot of other factors. LizzyM, however, often seems to implying in her posts about this that she is not the only one who feels this way; UMich and AAMC have also spoken out in concern. Do you really want to take the risk?

Also, nobody has said that, if you write about going on a mission trip you will get rejected. Members have simply stated that it won't be particularly impressive (thus, if OP has another topic he is passionate about, that might be better) and that it could hurt you if not done correctly.

I say write about what means a lot to you! If that's a mission trip, than by all means write it, and anyone that says not to write something because they don't agree with it is giving bad advice. I do agree with giving parameters and advice on how to write it but to flat out say don't do it because I don't like it, is just plain dumb!👎

Once again, nobody has said to "flat out don't do it".

And that is fine that you think that. Ultimately, OP will have to decide for himself what to write about. We have just made him aware of the potential downfalls he may encounter if he chooses to do so.

Do you guys understand what a missions trip is? Seems as if a lot of ignorant opinionated people are writing things that are not even relevant!

Yes, I do. Most of them are short, two to three weeks trips abroad that, if not done correctly (ie, training local doctors, involving local government, etc would all be doing it correctly), can harm the country they occur in. If one was involved in an extended mission trip with an organization that is well-known and respected (Doctors Without Borders), then it would be viewed very differently.

This kid never said anything about writing in his PS some illegal procedure that he performed.. Please stop writing about this since this is not relevant in this case..

It may or may not be. As I said, applicants do not often realize what they are doing is unethical (and, by that country's laws, it may not actually be illegal). Thus, it is a point worth bringing up.

And, I'm also a adcom in a top 2 medical school. Now I am going to create another account and say that I know and validate who I am. Or, I actually have a family member who is a mod that can vouche for me.

OK. Good luck actually getting verified.

Not saying that this is the case but damn way to many people put emphasis on what one person says. And yes, if you take ANY statistics course, the fact that it is only one person does discredit this persons view. Now, I have gone to LizzyM for advice because I believe that she has a great amount of knowledge but I don't worship the ground she walks on either!

Nobody here is worshiping her. It is a fair statement, however, that a member of an adcom will likely know more about how a member of an adcom will react to something than a pre-med.

 

[Sophocles]

Click.
Very interesting. Good enough for me.

It may not be something that is obviously illegal to the applicant, especially they are being encouraged by whatever group of physicians they are with. That is why it is often brought up in these threads. Anyone who has volunteered in the US knows how restrictive the rules regarding patient contact are. The same rules should apply to trips abroad; however, they often do not.

Once again, no one has said one word about some illegal activity. What you are doing is assuming you know all of the events and preaching fire and brimstone. I don't believe that anyone would argue whether or not it is smart to put illegal activities on an application so your argument is quite superflous.

It's not wrong because there are those in need back home, per se, though -- as medical schools exist to train physicians to serve in the US -- adcoms do want to see domestic volunteer experience. It is wrong because the way these trips are often structured leave the country no better off (and, sometimes, worse off) and frequently allow people to step outside their scope of practice.

You are assuming that this applicant does not have any domestic volunteer experience. What if he had 300 hours of domestic volunteer experience and he decided to go to another country to provide water and a listening ear to those in need. Maybe your right, Mother Theresa should have never ventured outside of her country and we should rescind her Nobel peace prize.

First, all philosophical advice is inherently subjective as there is no way to objectively prove if something is moral or not (ie, it is not a science).

You just proved my point, not negated it. Thank you.

That said, how much more aggressively would you like them to monitor it? It's a public forum. The fact that they verify faculty members is above and beyond what most message boards do.

Touche, good point.

What would happen would depend on a lot of other factors. LizzyM, however, often seems to implying in her posts about this that she is not the only one who feels this way; UMich and AAMC have also spoken out in concern. Do you really want to take the risk?

Once again, this is with the assumption that this individual wants to write about illegal activities.... So.... irrelevant unless OP decides to include that.

Also, nobody has said that, if you write about going on a mission trip you will get rejected. Members have simply stated that it won't be particularly impressive (thus, if OP has another topic he is passionate about, that might be better) and that it could hurt you if not done correctly.

Once again, nobody has said to "flat out don't do it".

You can't say nothing but negative things and then justify it by saying "well, I'm not telling you not to do it". This is just a game of semantics and you and I both know that you have put such a negative connotation that any reader siding with you would never write about their beautiful mission trip experience.

And that is fine that you think that. Ultimately, OP will have to decide for himself what to write about. We have just made him aware of the potential downfalls he may encounter if he chooses to do so.

Agree.

Yes, I do. Most of them are short, two to three weeks trips abroad that, if not done correctly (ie, training local doctors, involving local government, etc would all be "correctly"), can harm the country they occur in. If one was involved in an extended mission trip with an organization that is well-known and respected (Doctors Without Borders), then it would be viewed very differently.

Ah.. Not quite. I believe that this is just one form of a medical mission trip. Not all mission trips even include any type of medical interaction (in the most traditional sense of the term)

 

[Sophocles]

Nobody here is worshiping her. It is a fair statement, however, that a member of an adcom will likely know more about how a member of an adcom will react to something than a pre-med

Umm. Yes, she would definitely know more regarding her institutions admissions process. But, I would argue that UofMiami looks for different things than Harvard, which looks for different things than Albert Einstein, who looks for different things than Tulane. etc.etc.

When she is quoted in every thread and people do everything she says....... ummmmmmm.. it might be misconstrued as worship. Perhaps your right, I'm too tired to argue and continue with this conversation. Good luck to the OP and I hope he finds the answer to his question, even if it's not my opinion.

 

[Starlightembers]

Very interesting. Good enough for me.

Good to hear.

Once again, no one has said one word about some illegal activity. What you are doing is assuming you know all of the events and preaching fire and brimstone. I don't believe that anyone would argue whether or not it is smart to put illegal activities on an application so your argument is quite superflous.

I have not assumed anything about what the OP has or has not done. In my original response, I simply suggested that, if he does choose to write about his experiences abroad, that he make sure that he would have been allowed to do it in the states. As I also stated, many applicants do not realize what they have done may have been unethical and, as such, end up including it; I was informing OP of this, not criticizing him.

You are assuming that this applicant does not have any domestic volunteer experience. What if he had 300 hours of domestic volunteer experience and he decided to go to another country to provide water and a listening ear to those in need. Maybe your right, Mother Theresa should have never ventured outside of her country and we should rescind her Nobel peace prize.

1. I never assumed he had no domestic experience, nor did I state that I assumed he did. Once again, I was just pointing out the importance of it and that, as helping those in this country is of primary importance to US medical schools (and because they have seen so much of it before), his experience abroad would likely not add anything significant to his application.
2. Handing out water and talking to natives, obviously, poses no imminent ethical dilemma (see the threads linked in my original response for a discussion on the long term ethical issues). On the other hand, it likely won't greatly enhance his application, either (it just won't hurt it).
3. There are good and bad ways to volunteer in other countries. If done correctly, they can do a lot of good. Most medical missions, especially those that pre-meds are involved in, are done incorrectly.

You just proved my point, not negated it. Thank you.

It may be subjective overall; however, you can objectively tell if someone or a group of people have an opinion. For admission purposes, the opinion of a group of people matters.

Touche, good point.

Indeed.

Once again, this is with the assumption that this individual wants to write about illegal activities.... So.... irrelevant unless OP decides to include that.

LizzyM discussed reasons beyond practicing out of one's scope of practice why these trips are potentially unethical.

Ah.. Not quite. I believe that this is just one form of a medical mission trip. Not all mission trips even include any type of medical interaction (in the most traditional sense of the term)

The assumption I did make was that we were discussing medical mission trips, as that is what members on SDN are usually referring to when they bring it up. If you went to Africa to preach the truth of [whatever your particular faith may be], though I doubt it will help you, I am unsure (as it has not been discussed) if it could potentially hurt you.

To the OP:
Which opinion you take is up to you. If I were you, I would take the adcom's over the pre-med's.

 

[dartmed]

x

 

[NickNaylor]

Nobody here is worshiping her. It is a fair statement, however, that a member of an adcom will likely know more about how a member of an adcom will react to something than a pre-med

Umm. Yes, she would definitely know more regarding her institutions admissions process. But, I would argue that UofMiami looks for different things than Harvard, which looks for different things than Albert Einstein, who looks for different things than Tulane. etc.etc.

When she is quoted in every thread and people do everything she says....... ummmmmmm.. it might be misconstrued as worship. Perhaps your right, I'm too tired to argue and continue with this conversation. Good luck to the OP and I hope he finds the answer to his question, even if it's not my opinion.

You're getting pretty worked up over this. It's a little strange.

 

[sliceofbread136]

Do medical mission trips actually get looked at that negatively? I have clinical experience in the US and have lots of experience with the poor. I wanted to go on a trip because I like working with the less fortunate, want some more clinical exposure, and I want to travel. Should I decide not to do it?

 

[dartmed]

Do medical mission trips actually get looked at that negatively? I have clinical experience in the US and have lots of experience with the poor. I wanted to go on a trip because I like working with the less fortunate, want some more clinical exposure, and I want to travel. Should I decide not to do it?

As long as you are humble about it...it helps you. You are there to learn. You are there to observe. Not to provide medical care. Not to diagnose patients. Not to assist IN SURGERY (Good god). Do public health work. Much more beneficial to the community. Work along with the community. Create sustainable solutions. Think outside the box. Volunteer at an orphanage instead of a clinic. Please don't deliver babies. That's still considered medical care.

 

[sliceofbread136]

As long as you are humble about it...it helps you. You are there to learn. You are there to observe. Not to provide medical care. Not to diagnose patients. Not to assist IN SURGERY (Good god). Do public health work. Much more beneficial to the community. Work along with the community. Create sustainable solutions. Think outside the box. Volunteer at an orphanage instead of a clinic. Please don't deliver babies. That's still considered medical care.

The program I am already involved in is clinically based and we do perform very basic procedures (simple diagnosing and stuff like taking blood pressure). Should I reconsider this?

 

[dartmed]

The program I am already involved in is clinically based and we do perform very basic procedures (simple diagnosing and stuff like taking blood pressure). Should I reconsider this?

Could be detrimental to your career. Read the latest article in New Physician by Beth Rogers. A student was rejected from dental school because he pulled a tooth out...pulling a tooth out, in my opinion, is much less severe than diagnosing a patient.

 

[sliceofbread136]

Could be detrimental to your career. Read the latest article in New Physician by Beth Rogers. A student was rejected from dental school because he pulled a tooth out...pulling a tooth out, in my opinion, is much less severe than diagnosing a patient.

The diagnosis is stuff like pink eye. My program is specifically global medical training at university of texas at austin. It seems like tons of people do it, and my premed advisor said it is a good experience. I'm not trying to doubt your advice, this was just something I've wanted to do for a while and I'm hoping it's not as bad as people are saying :/

 

[dartmed]

The diagnosis is stuff like pink eye. My program is specifically global medical training at university of texas at austin. It seems like tons of people do it, and my premed advisor said it is a good experience. I'm not trying to doubt your advice, this was just something I've wanted to do for a while and I'm hoping it's not as bad as people are saying :/

Be careful as to the types of things you do and say in your application in terms of the trips. I have been on two of these, and both times I did not do things I was not comfortable with. Just don't say I diagnosed patients..::alarm: will go off for most adcoms.

 

[sliceofbread136]

Be careful as to the types of things you do and say in your application in terms of the trips. I have been on two of these, and both times I did not do things I was not comfortable with. Just don't say I diagnosed patients..::alarm: will go off for most adcoms.

Alright, thanks alot for the advice!

 

[Starlightembers]

The diagnosis is stuff like pink eye. My program is specifically global medical training at university of texas at austin. It seems like tons of people do it, and my premed advisor said it is a good experience. I'm not trying to doubt your advice, this was just something I've wanted to do for a while and I'm hoping it's not as bad as people are saying :/

I think the question you need to ask yourself is: Would I be allowed to do this with patients in the states?

If the answer is no -- as it appears to be -- then you likely should not be doing it. Even if it did not look bad on an application, you would be subjecting the patients abroad to a standard of care that is less than what they would get in the states. If the goal is to help them, why would you support that (are you really helping them by doing that, I should say)?

Once again, I'm not criticizing you or anybody else here. I do not doubt you have the absolute best of intentions.

 

[GiantFetus]

Personally, this all goes back to the fact of the matter: why serve other countries when your own country is in, often times, equal disparity?

You plan on being a US based doctor, I'm assuming? So maybe you should highlight things your equally as proud to be apart of right her in the US.

Maybe discuss your interest in global medicine during the interview cycle where you can discuss Guatemala openly. Therefore, making it have a huge impact through facial movements and hand signals. Not a mediocre impact through writing.

Props to you regardless.

 

[Aaron151]

LizzyM is an admissions committee member at a top 25 school. Obviously that's only one opinion, but it's no less valid.

I think the concern is that medical missions trips tend to be done by affluent pre-med students that have the resources to spend thousands of dollars to use locals in a third world country as guinea pigs for their "training." Obviously I'm painting with broad strokes, but in many cases this is true. If your "medical missions" trip consisted of nothing more than paying $3000 to stay in a hotel for two weeks giving vaccines to people, then I would question the applicant's authenticity when it comes to medical missions. If, on the other hand, your experience had significantly more depth to it, then it would probably be significantly more powerful.

There are plenty of opportunities to do medical service in the US. There are almost certainly opportunities to serve in your local community. That begs the wuestion: why would you pay to go abroad to "serve" when you could just as easily do that in your hometown? I would challenge anyone to come up with a non-superficial answer to that question.

I can understand where you are coming from but on the other hand it seems as you overlook the fact that when weighing the opportunities presented before an individual based on their circumstances, volunteering abroad is the better of the two options. I am from a very rural Minnesota town where options for "volunteering" in a medical setting include nothing more than filing papers in an office. Not that filing papers is not a noble cause or necessary when I asked to do this at our regional hospital where I also work, it was looked upon as a waste of time by the volunteer coordinator. She continued to say that the senior citizens group likes to come in and do the paper filing while talking and drinking coffee, it was a social get together for these volunteers. Now, because the size of my town there are simply few opportunities to volunteer. If I was to spend a summer in a larger city it would cost me the same as going abroad.

I am leaving for Oaxaca, Mexico on May 4th to work in rural clinics for three months. However, my situation is slightly different due to the fact that I have been a phlebotomist in a hospital and accumulated over +2000 hours of clinical work and I am also in my last two semesters of my four year nursing degree. I am able to do many clinical things without needing "guinea pigs." I think that it is a little assuming of you to believe that in individual has the same volunteer opportunities in their hometown and would receive the same experience as if they had not gone abroad. I truly want to work abroad and have planned on doing so even before I decided that medical school was the route in which I wanted to go. I do agree, however, that there are people who do these trips to build their application and I do not agree with this at all, in fact it is disgusting because they are pretending to be someone they really aren't, until they are accepted.

If you truly want to work abroad and really want to serve those who do not have the means necessary to get medical treatment, I think that they should be supported in everyway possible. It really comes down to the person and their motive. If the motive is sincere and the opportunity that has presented itself through an abroad program, I see no reason not to take advantage of that opportunity, and while there make a true effort to understand the many barriers in life that these people face.

I am going through Proworld Volunteer corps. During my interview they talked about how many of the doctors are simply overworked and use their days off during the weekends to perform hearing screens in many of the rural areas. To help in assisting these docs in performing hearing screens I would not see that as treating them as "guinea pigs." I am very much looking forward to talking with many of these people who have limited access to many of the luxuries that we here in the U.S. have. For many of them their resilience is something that many of us could take a lesson in.

Often times perspective is what we need and I know from personal experience that the humility I feel when working with those who are underserved gives me that perspective. Not it is not a romanticized "save the baby seals so you can feel good about what you have done," it is also about a learning experience for myself and is a constant reminder to how screwed up my priorities are sometimes. Going abroad is about so much more than "serving others," these people don't need us as Americans going down there and showing them how it should be done, that is a very arrogant attitude. But I strongly believe that you can learn something about the human condition through exposure that can affect how you view the world.

So I ask, please to not judge those who have done or plan to do missions abroad based on your experiences with those who have.

 

[bryceg]

You're getting pretty worked up over this. It's a little strange.

👍

 

[dartmed]

You hit on some very interesting points, and I am happy that you are volunteering abroad.

If you are volunteering there, here are some things to chew on:
-how can you help the community apart from volunteering in a clinic?
-is your help truly meaningful/helpful? will the clinics run as efficiently once you leave?
-what's something you can contribute that you think will be a valuable asset to the community?
-do YOU think you are helping the clinic (try to decipher what the workers think of you; typically they try not to say anything)
-how has a community changed because of your work?

End goal - think about providing long-term solutions...not short-term fixes.

There is great literature on this as well - look into the Health Affairs article by Teeb Al-Samarrai about lack of supervision for residents, and what her suggestions were. Very insightful.

I think it's noble that you are doing this, and most people won't have a problem because you have certifications/clinical experience necessary to do your work. However, as you mentioned, be cautious that you don't overestimate yourself and do things that you are not supposed to aka surgery or proposing treatment etc.

I don't you are the type of person people are worried about, but some...

I can understand where you are coming from but on the other hand it seems as you overlook the fact that when weighing the opportunities presented before an individual based on their circumstances, volunteering abroad is the better of the two options. I am from a very rural Minnesota town where options for "volunteering" in a medical setting include nothing more than filing papers in an office. Not that filing papers is not a noble cause or necessary when I asked to do this at our regional hospital where I also work, it was looked upon as a waste of time by the volunteer coordinator. She continued to say that the senior citizens group likes to come in and do the paper filing while talking and drinking coffee, it was a social get together for these volunteers. Now, because the size of my town there are simply few opportunities to volunteer. If I was to spend a summer in a larger city it would cost me the same as going abroad.

I am leaving for Oaxaca, Mexico on May 4th to work in rural clinics for three months. However, my situation is slightly different due to the fact that I have been a phlebotomist in a hospital and accumulated over +2000 hours of clinical work and I am also in my last two semesters of my four year nursing degree. I am able to do many clinical things without needing "guinea pigs." I think that it is a little assuming of you to believe that in individual has the same volunteer opportunities in their hometown and would receive the same experience as if they had not gone abroad. I truly want to work abroad and have planned on doing so even before I decided that medical school was the route in which I wanted to go. I do agree, however, that there are people who do these trips to build their application and I do not agree with this at all, in fact it is disgusting because they are pretending to be someone they really aren't, until they are accepted.

If you truly want to work abroad and really want to serve those who do not have the means necessary to get medical treatment, I think that they should be supported in everyway possible. It really comes down to the person and their motive. If the motive is sincere and the opportunity that has presented itself through an abroad program, I see no reason not to take advantage of that opportunity, and while there make a true effort to understand the many barriers in life that these people face.

I am going through Proworld Volunteer corps. During my interview they talked about how many of the doctors are simply overworked and use their days off during the weekends to perform hearing screens in many of the rural areas. To help in assisting these docs in performing hearing screens I would not see that as treating them as "guinea pigs." I am very much looking forward to talking with many of these people who have limited access to many of the luxuries that we here in the U.S. have. For many of them their resilience is something that many of us could take a lesson in.

Often times perspective is what we need and I know from personal experience that the humility I feel when working with those who are underserved gives me that perspective. Not it is not a romanticized "save the baby seals so you can feel good about what you have done," it is also about a learning experience for myself and is a constant reminder to how screwed up my priorities are sometimes. Going abroad is about so much more than "serving others," these people don't need us as Americans going down there and showing them how it should be done, that is a very arrogant attitude. But I strongly believe that you can learn something about the human condition through exposure that can affect how you view the world.

So I ask, please to not judge those who have done or plan to do missions abroad based on your experiences with those who have.

 

[Starlightembers]

I can understand where you are coming from but on the other hand it seems as you overlook the fact that when weighing the opportunities presented before an individual based on their circumstances, volunteering abroad is the better of the two options. I am from a very rural Minnesota town where options for "volunteering" in a medical setting include nothing more than filing papers in an office. Not that filing papers is not a noble cause or necessary when I asked to do this at our regional hospital where I also work, it was looked upon as a waste of time by the volunteer coordinator. She continued to say that the senior citizens group likes to come in and do the paper filing while talking and drinking coffee, it was a social get together for these volunteers. Now, because the size of my town there are simply few opportunities to volunteer. If I was to spend a summer in a larger city it would cost me the same as going abroad.

If they were to cost you the same, I would argue that there is no reason as to why going abroad would be better. You are paying the same amount -- why not choose the one that involves no questionable ethics, lacks a negative stigma, would provide you with US clinical experience, etc? Furthermore, there are some US programs that will provide you a stipend. You may have to do research with the clinical volunteering; however, in that case, you would only be killing two birds with one stone.

I am leaving for Oaxaca, Mexico on May 4th to work in rural clinics for three months. However, my situation is slightly different due to the fact that I have been a phlebotomist in a hospital and accumulated over +2000 hours of clinical work and I am also in my last two semesters of my four year nursing degree. I am able to do many clinical things without needing "guinea pigs."

Then your situation is not one that we would are labeling to be unethical, is it? As long as you do not step outside what you know and have been trained to do (and, if you talk about this in your PS, secondaries, etc state that you have been trained), this would be fine. You are also spending three months there which, though not optimal, is very different than the three weeks trips most pre-meds go on.

Also, it is worth pointing out that, if you have been a phelbotomist, you have already received excellent clinical experience; if you coupled that with shadowing and your hospital volunteering job (as mediocre as it is), you would be fine. You can get your volunteer experience via non-clinical volunteer opportunities.

I think that it is a little assuming of you to believe that in individual has the same volunteer opportunities in their hometown and would receive the same experience as if they had not gone abroad. I truly want to work abroad and have planned on doing so even before I decided that medical school was the route in which I wanted to go. I do agree, however, that there are people who do these trips to build their application and I do not agree with this at all, in fact it is disgusting because they are pretending to be someone they really aren't, until they are accepted.

To be blunt, I do not care what volunteer opportunities one has in their hometown, nor do I care about one's intentions. What I care about -- and what I have been stating throughout this thread -- is if the trip is unethical. Specifically,

• Would someone have been able to do the work they are doing abroad if they were in the states? (If no -- as is the case, for example, with making a diagnosis -- it is unethical and they should not be doing it; it will likely be looked down upon in the admissions process)
• Has the person or the organization they worked with contributed meaningfully to the local community? (If no -- as is the case with these trips in which a group of physicians go for three weeks, do a bunch of surgeries and leave [etc] -- the ethics of the trip are questionable and it may be looked down upon).

If you truly want to work abroad and really want to serve those who do not have the means necessary to get medical treatment, I think that they should be supported in everyway possible. It really comes down to the person and their motive. If the motive is sincere and the opportunity that has presented itself through an abroad program, I see no reason not to take advantage of that opportunity, and while there make a true effort to understand the many barriers in life that these people face.

If their motivation is sincere; but the opportunity unethical in some way, they should not take advantage of it. At that point, you are not benefiting the local people, you are just benefiting yourself (giving yourself the experience). You can understand the barriers people in these areas face just as easily by arranging an extended trip to the country (if you can live with people in the local community - even better) and, perhaps, shadowing a physician there or volunteering in ways you would be allowed to in the states. If, on the other hand, the opportunity is ethical, then I agree it should be supported.

I am going through Proworld Volunteer corps. During my interview they talked about how many of the doctors are simply overworked and use their days off during the weekends to perform hearing screens in many of the rural areas. To help in assisting these docs in performing hearing screens I would not see that as treating them as "guinea pigs." I am very much looking forward to talking with many of these people who have limited access to many of the luxuries that we here in the U.S. have. For many of them their resilience is something that many of us could take a lesson in.

Once again: Would you be allowed (legally) to assist with patients the way you are there in the states?

If no, you are subjecting the people there to sub-optimal medical care and doing something that is considered by many -- including adcoms and the AAMC -- to be unethical. Once again, if all you want is the experience, there are other (better, more ethical) ways to attain that.

Often times perspective is what we need and I know from personal experience that the humility I feel when working with those who are underserved gives me that perspective. Not it is not a romanticized "save the baby seals so you can feel good about what you have done," it is also about a learning experience for myself and is a constant reminder to how screwed up my priorities are sometimes. Going abroad is about so much more than "serving others," these people don't need us as Americans going down there and showing them how it should be done, that is a very arrogant attitude. But I strongly believe that you can learn something about the human condition through exposure that can affect how you view the world.

I agree with you and feel it is great that you want those opportunities; however, engaging in a program that allows you to engage in unethical and potentially illegal activity is not the way to gain it. If you really want that experience and cannot locate a medical volunteer organization that will allow you to participate ethically (and I don't know if this trip will or not -- as I said, answer the above questions), there are ways to do it outside of medicine and in a way that is ethical.

So I ask, please to not judge those who have done or plan to do missions abroad based on your experiences with those who have.

I don't judge people who have done these trips, per se, and assume only the best intentions; however, if something is unethical, I do not believe that intentions matter much.

I am also not an adcom and, as such, it is their judgement that matters. If you must go and if you must write about these things, make sure to exclude any activities you engaged in (if you do) that you would not have been allowed to engage in had you been in the states.

 

[IlDestriero]

Has the person or the organization they worked with contributed meaningfully to the local community?
(If no -- as is the case with these trips in which a group of physicians go for three weeks, do a bunch of surgeries and leave [etc] -- the ethics of the trip are questionable and it may be looked down upon).

Remind me again why going into developing nations with extremely limited medical capabilities and performing single stage curative surgeries on the disabled, diseased, and disfigured is unethical.
Don't confuse vitamin and antibiotic dispensing hand holding medical mission trips with those composed entirely of fully trained professionals performing curative procedures on those that could never get them otherwise.

This young man and thousands like him every year would disagree, as would their families, and their communities. These surgical trips meaningfully benefit the community by transforming the the disabled from shunned outcasts to contributing members of society with a real future.
There's nothing unethical about board certified physicians providing world class curative procedures for free to those that could never access any level of care. As for donating time at home, I do my share of charity and Medicaid work. In 2 weeks I could just stay home and bring in another $25k, or I could donate my time and expertise to do something to change some unfortunate people's lives for the better, forever. Sometimes I go with plan B.

 

[Starlightembers]

Remind me again why going into developing nations with extremely limited medical capabilities and performing single stage curative surgeries on the disabled, diseased, and disfigured is unethical.
Don't confuse vitamin and antibiotic dispensing hand holding medical mission trips with those composed entirely of fully trained professionals performing curative procedures on those that could never get them otherwise.

This young man and thousands like him every year would disagree, as would their families, and their communities. These surgical trips meaningfully benefit the community by transforming the the disabled from shunned outcasts to contributing members of society with a real future.
There's nothing unethical about board certified physicians providing world class curative procedures for free to those that could never access any level of care. As for donating time at home, I do my share of charity and Medicaid work. In 2 weeks I could just stay home and bring in another $25k, or I could donate my time and expertise to do something to change some unfortunate people's lives for the better, forever. Sometimes I go with plan B.

• Do you work with the local government there (as in, do they know and are they OK with you being there)?
• Are the organizations you work with (assuming you do) there-long term, i.e not three weeks out of the entire year?
• Do you allow pre-medical students to do things they would not be allowed to do in the states?
• Does the organization you work with involve and/or train local physicians?

If the answer to these are yes, yes, no and (maybe - less important; but still significant) yes, then you are not involved in the work I am talking about. The trips I criticize are those in which a group of surgeons (etc) goes into the country, without consulting the local government/peoples and non-affiliated with any organization, with a group of pre-meds (letting them do things they would not be allowed to in the states), does a few surgeries for three weeks and then flies back home, leaving the hospital and patients without any follow up care until the next six months - year when they come back. And yes, I find the ethics of these trips questionable.

 

[dartmed]

• Do you work with the local government there (as in, do they know and are they OK with you being there)?
• Are the organizations you work with (assuming you do) there-long term, i.e not three weeks out of the entire year?
• Do you allow pre-medical students to do things they would not be allowed to do in the states?
• Does the organization you work with involve and/or train local physicians?

If the answer to these are yes, yes, no and (maybe - less important; but still significant) yes, then you are not involved in the work I am talking about. The trips I criticize are those in which a group of surgeons (etc) goes into the country, without consulting the local government/peoples and non-affiliated with any organization, with a group of pre-meds (letting them do things they would not be allowed to in the states), does a few surgeries for three weeks and then flies back home, leaving the hospital and patients without any follow up care until the next six months - year when they come back. And yes, I find the ethics of these trips questionable.

👍👍👍

Don't engage in medical tourism essentially.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0999/is_7240_320/ai_62193708/

Insightful article that was published in BMJ

 

[HawaiiMedMan]

It's funny how people tend to assume things. Since I'm the OP, I'll just make a few points and be done with it:

1) Never said I went on a "medical" mission trip. Just a mission trip. I went to serve the underprivileged by simple food and clothing distribution and hospital building. But if you don't think seeing some of those people, specifically sick, malnourished children, there wouldn't have an impact on your medical focus, you might be slightly disconnected. It's heartbreaking.

2) Some of you people are getting REALLY intense on a forum. This is why football exists. Take out some anger on the field. (Go Pats!)

3) I realized something while driving after I posted this yesterday. If one of ya'll asked me why I like cheesecake, would I give an elaborate story about how I walked into The Cheesecake Factory one time and absolutely just fell in love with it, or how after that first time of experiencing it, I tasted different kinds, learned to bake it, and have come to master it, both in creating it and enjoying it? I would say the second. But it is hard for me to write down on paper the moving experiences that have taught me to love medicine, not because I'm not a good writer, but because that's like writing a paper with tears instead of ink. You get called "trying and be emotional or dramatic", but why else the heck would you pick something THAT WILL BASE THE REST OF YOUR LIFE if there is no emotion, just pragmatism behind it. Sometimes I feel science has taught us to listen to books and not our hearts, and if your heart isn't in it, I feel bad for that patient that has to talk to a book and not a human.

4) Love each other.

Dueces, (yeah I said dueces)
Steve

 

[NickNaylor]

It's funny how people tend to assume things. Since I'm the OP, I'll just make a few points and be done with it:

1) Never said I went on a "medical" mission trip. Just a mission trip. I went to serve the underprivileged by simple food and clothing distribution and hospital building. But if you don't think seeing some of those people, specifically sick, malnourished children, there wouldn't have an impact on your medical focus, you might be slightly disconnected. It's heartbreaking.

2) Some of you people are getting REALLY intense on a forum. This is why football exists. Take out some anger on the field. (Go Pats!)

3) I realized something while driving after I posted this yesterday. If one of ya'll asked me why I like cheesecake, would I give an elaborate story about how I walked into The Cheesecake Factory one time and absolutely just fell in love with it, or how after that first time of experiencing it, I tasted different kinds, learned to bake it, and have come to master it, both in creating it and enjoying it? I would say the second. But it is hard for me to write down on paper the moving experiences that have taught me to love medicine, not because I'm not a good writer, but because that's like writing a paper with tears instead of ink. You get called "trying and be emotional or dramatic", but why else the heck would you pick something THAT WILL BASE THE REST OF YOUR LIFE if there is no emotion, just pragmatism behind it. Sometimes I feel science has taught us to listen to books and not our hearts, and if your heart isn't in it, I feel bad for that patient that has to talk to a book and not a human.

4) Love each other.

Dueces, (yeah I said dueces)
Steve

Won't disagree with you there, but unfortunately you don't make the rules of the game. I don't think anyone thinks that medical admissions as it exists now is a perfect system.

 

[IlDestriero]

👍👍👍

Don't engage in medical tourism essentially.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0999/is_7240_320/ai_62193708/

Insightful article that was published in BMJ

I'll sleep better tonight now that I know I kind of meet your ethical guidelines.🙄
Of note, the couple of trips I've been on, and have been asked to be on, don't even take residents, are extremely well planned and coordinated, work fully with the govt and local hospital, and come back a couple times a year.
It's hard to teach the locals, who barely have the equipment and training to do what they are currently doing the art of specialty pediatric surgery and pediatric anesthesia. Add in the fact that they usually have zero pediatric supplies and I'm sure you can see the problem. Maybe next time I'll just let them keep suffering and buy a Maserati. Or maybe they will replace me with someone who doesn't do essentially 100% pediatric anesthesia and .
And before you follow up with "Those anesthesiologists shouldn't be going in the first place!", you don't need a Peds Anesthesia fellowship to do routine Peds cases, but I'll bet my house that I can do it better.👍
Reading a peripherally related article and becoming a know it all about a complex topic and painting everything with broad "medical tourism" brush strokes won't serve you well in the future.
You also might be interested in knowing that when Haiti got hammered not too long ago, and everyone and their brother sent uncoordinated teams down to "help" our hospital flew down there and brought the sickest kids back here for treatment. Not too many hospitals make that kind of commitment to improving the lives of kids.
Cheers.

 

[IlDestriero]

I interviewed for a job at another hospital several years ago. They took it a step further and were partnered with a large hospital in a less economically strong part of a country in Europe. They provided hospital staff to provide services there and lecture on various topics for 3-4 months at a time. There was always at least one university anesthesthesiologist there. (at full salary🙂) It was a fascinating offer, but I could not see myself living in that city in the US.
Is that medical tourism as well? I would get to live near the water, in a great location, and have one week in 4 off. Sounds touristy.🙄

 

[dartmed]

I'll sleep better tonight now that I know I kind of meet your ethical guidelines.🙄

Of note, the couple of trips I've been on, and have been asked to be on, don't even take residents, are extremely well planned and coordinated, work fully with the govt and local hospital, and come back a couple times a year.

I think you misunderstood what I was getting at. Medical tourism is when physicians make-up their own clinics, ignoring the medical facilities that are already in place. The fact that you are working with the local hospital excludes you from this.

It's hard to teach the locals, who barely have the equipment and training to do what they are currently doing the art of specialty pediatric surgery and pediatric anesthesia. Add in the fact that they usually have zero pediatric supplies and I'm sure you can see the problem. Maybe next time I'll just let them keep suffering and buy a Maserati. Or maybe they will replace me with someone who doesn't do essentially 100% pediatric anesthesia and .
And before you follow up with "Those anesthesiologists shouldn't be going in the first place!", you don't need a Peds Anesthesia fellowship to do routine Peds cases, but I'll bet my house that I can do it better.👍


Reading a peripherally related article and becoming a know it all about a complex topic and painting everything with broad "medical tourism" brush strokes won't serve you well in the future.


You also might be interested in knowing that when Haiti got hammered not too long ago, and everyone and their brother sent uncoordinated teams down to "help" our hospital flew down there and brought the sickest kids back here for treatment. Not too many hospitals make that kind of commitment to improving the lives of kids.
Cheers.

That's truly amazing, and a great thing to do but Haiti was in need. As mentioned in my previous posts, I am extremely worried when undergraduates pursue medical mission trips.

I think we had a slight communication problem.