If School Doesn't Matter...

[PreMedDocMD]

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If your undergrad institution doesn't matter, then how come so many people frfrom Berkeley/ Yale/ Hopkins/ Harvard get into top 10 med schools?

 

[NFiasco]

Probably because they were smart in the first place to even end up at such prestige institutions.

 

[Summer Sweet]

If your undergrad institution doesn't matter, then how come so many people from Berkeley/ Yale/ Hopkins/ Harvard get into top 10 med schools?

Maybe the people who made the grades to get there during high school made the grades during college, as well.

Btw, I know people from low-tier state schools that have gone to top 10--hell, top 5--med schools, too. The reputation of your undergrad can only get you so far.

 

[154465]

Also it seems that kids at local and state schools went there to stay close to home. Most of them only apply locally to stay put, at least it seems to work that way here.

 

[PreMedDocMD]

Oh no, I have no doubt it is possible to get into any med school with the grades + MCAT from any state school. I know a 4.0 and 38 MCAT from CUNY that got into Cornell. It is possible. But, is there a SLIGHTLY higher chance going in from a more prestigious school?

 

[DeadCactus]

Oh no, I have no doubt it is possible to get into any med school with the grades + MCAT from any state school. I know a 4.0 and 38 MCAT from CUNY that got into Cornell. It is possible. But, is there a SLIGHTLY higher chance going in from a more prestigious school?

Just like in every other aspect of life; it's easier to stay at the top than climb to the top. But there are also more places to fall then to climb at the top...

 

[Summer Sweet]

Oh no, I have no doubt it is possible to get into any med school with the grades + MCAT from any state school. I know a 4.0 and 38 MCAT from CUNY that got into Cornell. It is possible. But, is there a SLIGHTLY higher chance going in from a more prestigious school?

I guess names/connections matter to some degree.

I know 3.7/33's in ivy's from state school, but with other stuff that made for a strong applicant. So I think it's not necessarily where you go, it's what you do there.

 

[littlealex]

Don't be ridiculous, of course schools matter. A 3.8 GPA from Yale is going to be much more competitive than a 3.8 GPA from SomeState University.

It just doesn't matter all that much. A 3.5 GPA from Harvard isn't going to out compete a 3.7 fro Podunks U.

I guess if you're going for top medical school (top10 or so), than the undergraduate institution is incredibly important because you'll be competing against top caliber students from top schools. However, for second tier schools whose GPA/MCAT is lower, I don't think the undergrad is that important.

Also realize that most people applying out of top schools have very high MCATs (35+ is common place).

 

[Law2Doc]

It just doesn't matter all that much.

I think this is the key distinction. Everything helps, but the degree can be slight enough to make it a non-factor. The top students with the top scores are going to get looked at by the top med schools. That some of the top undergrads have more students that boast very high MCATs probably equates to the kind of students they admit.

 

[CCLCMer]

Probably because they were smart in the first place to even end up at such prestige institutions.

Bingo. You've got a major selection bias. The TOP students at lower tiered schools are just as good as the top students at top schools. It's just that the AVERAGE students at lower tiered schools aren't as good as the average students at top schools. You've got a much wider spread in performance and abilities at a big state U than you do at Harvard.

 

[Inuranic]

Bingo. You've got a major selection bias. The TOP students at lower tiered schools are just as good as the top students at top schools. It's just that the AVERAGE students at lower tiered schools aren't as good as the average students at top schools. You've got a much wider spread in performance and abilities at a big state U than you do at Harvard.

I agree 100%. This is what goes on at my school (your standard "State U"). The spectrum of abilities astounds me.

 

[Hershi]

I go to my state school. and I was looking at the Class of 2011's fb group for one of the med schools in my state. Weird breakdown but there were about 60 from my state school and a good 15-18 from cornell. weird.

 

[154465]

I get annoyed when people say a 3.8 from Harvard or whatever counts more than a 3.8 from state school. I worked really really hard to do well in my "random" state school and I highly doubt that it's any different anywhere else (with the exception of MIT or Chicago). I am sure I could do just as well at any Ivy League school as I have done here. And I'm sure ADCOMs are not so shortsighted as to believe otherwise.

 

[narretgrez]

i dunno... that's what i thought too, until i entered my one-year graduate's program.

there were kids from all different types of schools at cornell, and they were like summa/magna cum laudes from the schools they were coming from.

they got owned at cornell.

 

[154465]

i dunno... that's what i thought too, until i entered my one-year graduate's program.

there were kids from all different types of schools at cornell, and they were like summa/magna cum laudes from the schools they were coming from.

they got owned at cornell.

I wouldn't be surprised, graduate programs are significantly more difficult than undergrad. That would have probably happened anywhere.

 

[BigRedPremed]

I did a mdapplicants search of:

1. Applicants with high GPA's (3.9+) and low MCAT (below 30) and only 1 applicant out of the 85 profiles that came up came from a Top 25 school.

2. Applicants with high MCAT (35+) and low GPA's (below 3.3) and roughly half of the profiles were of applicants from Top 25 schools.

In light of that, it's hard to make the assertion that a 3.8 GPA from an average state school is as hard to attain as a 3.8 GPA from an elite school (despite the elite school being grade inflated). The quality of the study body matters that much.

 

[narretgrez]

in cornell engineering, there's no difference in the courses for grad or undergrad.

in fact, most courses are composed of undergrads and sprinkled with some grads. this is biomedical eng, btw.

 

[Arc]

I did a mdapplicants search of:

1. Applicants with high GPA's (3.9+) and low MCAT (below 30) and only 1 applicant out of the 85 profiles that came up came from a Top 25 school.

2. Applicants with high MCAT (35+) and low GPA's (below 3.3) and roughly half of the profiles were of applicants from Top 25 schools.

In light of that, it's hard to make the assertion that a 3.8 GPA from an average state school is as hard to attain as a 3.8 GPA from an elite school (despite the elite school being grade inflated). The quality of the study body matters that much.

There's grade inflations at elite schools?

 

[154465]

I did a mdapplicants search of:

1. Applicants with high GPA's (3.9+) and low MCAT (below 30) and only 1 applicant out of the 85 profiles that came up came from a Top 25 school.

2. Applicants with high MCAT (35+) and low GPA's (below 3.3) and roughly half of the profiles were of applicants from Top 25 schools.

In light of that, it's hard to make the assertion that a 3.8 GPA from an average state school is as hard to attain as a 3.8 GPA from an elite school (despite the elite school being grade inflated). The quality of the study body matters that much.

Thank you for doing the research on MDapps. So scientific of you.

 

[154465]

in cornell engineering, there's no difference in the courses for grad or undergrad.

in fact, most courses are composed of undergrads and sprinkled with some grads. this is biomedical eng, btw.

I'm not sure that it makes a difference. That is like at my school - I know plenty of valedictorians who got their asses kicked once they got in from high school. The next level is just more difficult.

 

[narretgrez]

but if the valedictorians from state schools have a more difficult time than valedictorians from elite schools in the same program. doesn't that say something. just arguing over the logic here.

my experience is completely anecdotal. i don't think we know too much unless we have hard statistics.

 

[BigRedPremed]

There's grade inflations at elite schools?

Supposedly.

 

[154465]

but if the valedictorians from state schools have a more difficult time than valedictorians from elite schools in the same program. doesn't that say something. just arguing over the logic here.

my experience is completely anecdotal. i don't think we know too much unless we have hard statistics.

You're right all of our evidence is circumstantial. There is no real way to get a clear answer (unless you search MDapps - ofcourse). I can counter with examples from what I have seen personally but it does not make a difference. Now I have to go fail a calc final at a community college....damn it.

 

[inaminute]

Thank you for doing the research on MDapps. So scientific of you.

heh---he went to a state school, suck on that

 

[inaminute]

whatchall think MCAT is for? sheesh

 

[BigRedPremed]

but if the valedictorians from state schools have a more difficult time than valedictorians from elite schools in the same program. doesn't that say something. just arguing over the logic here.

my experience is completely anecdotal. i don't think we know too much unless we have hard statistics.

Data on this is available.

Cornell and Michigan break down their applicant data by GPA/MCAT (they're the only two schools I know of that does this):

http://www.career.cornell.edu/downloads/Health/accapp06.pdf

http://www.careercenter.umich.edu/students/healthmedlaw/med/medappstats.htm

You can see that even when compared with an excellent state school, the Ivy League school still does better.

My posting isn't to disparage state school applicants but rather to question the assertion that is often made that a 3.8 at a state school is as difficult to achieve as a 3.8 at an elite school.

 

[154465]

Data on this is available.

Cornell and Michigan break down their applicant data by GPA/MCAT (they're the only two schools I know of that does this):

http://www.career.cornell.edu/downloads/Health/accapp06.pdf

http://www.careercenter.umich.edu/students/healthmedlaw/med/medappstats.htm

You can see that even when compared with an excellent state school, the Ivy League school still does better.

My posting isn't to disparage state school applicants but rather to question the assertion that is often made that a 3.8 at a state school is as difficult to achieve as a 3.8 at an elite school.

haha I'm sorry but if you're comparing an ivy to a state school don't compare it to Michigan. Michigan is pretty damn elite on its own. All I'm saying is that you Ivy leaguers suck. IS THAT SUCH A TERRIBLE THING?

p.s. the charts don't prove much of anything. Perhaps I was wrong saying ADCOMs are not biased, but otherwise my argument stands.

 

[drizzt3117]

haha I'm sorry but if you're comparing an ivy to a state school don't compare it to Michigan. Michigan is pretty damn elite on its own. All I'm saying is that you Ivy leaguers suck. IS THAT SUCH A TERRIBLE THING?

p.s. the charts don't prove much of anything. Perhaps I was wrong saying ADCOMs are not biased, but otherwise my argument stands.

We had a pretty big discussion on this before, where I commented that some of the ADCOMs I've talked with have "difficulty" ratings for schools, which are not necessarily related to the "prestige" of the school. The schools in the highest difficulty category IIRC included a state school (Cal) and two Ivy League schools (U Penn, Cornell), and generally weren't that surprising but there were some schools you may not have expected on the list.

 

[154465]

We had a pretty big discussion on this before, where I commented that some of the ADCOMs I've talked with have "difficulty" ratings for schools, which are not necessarily related to the "prestige" of the school. The schools in the highest difficulty category IIRC included a state school (Cal) and two Ivy League schools (U Penn, Cornell), and generally weren't that surprising but there were some schools you may not have expected on the list.

I want this list. Also, can anyone teach me optimization? I'm seriously going to bomb this exam.

 

[narretgrez]

thought i was adding my experience to the table, but maybe i came off sounding arrogant. sorry.

 

[154465]

thought i was adding my experience to the table, but maybe i came off sounding arrogant. sorry.

No not at all, at least I didn't think so.

 

[narretgrez]

1. find the derivative function
2. draw it
3. look for breasts pointing up or down
4. find the nipple point

 

[154465]

1. find the derivative function
2. draw it
3. look for breasts pointing up or down
4. find the nipple point

Nipples? Breasts? I wanna go to Cornell...

 

[narretgrez]

drmom is probably going to mod me again, this time for indecent metaphors...

 

[154465]

drmom is probably going to mod me again, this time for indecent metaphors...

I dunno, its probably not as bad as the one we used for alpha and beta linkages. "boobs are up, asses are down."

Please don't ban me...

 

[drizzt3117]

I want this list. Also, can anyone teach me optimization? I'm seriously going to bomb this exam.

Maybe the adcoms will give it to you 🙂 I just heard about it by word of mouth when I wasn't even a pre-med...

 

[maxflash04]

I dunno, its probably not as bad as the one we used for alpha and beta linkages. "boobs are up, asses are down."

Please don't ban me...

You're super cool.

 

[misterex]

I always thought that even if you have a great gpa and mcat(from a low tier school), you have less of a chance of getting in than someone from a top tier school. I'm hoping this isn't true.

 

[gotmeds?]

If your undergrad institution doesn't matter, then how come so many people frfrom Berkeley/ Yale/ Hopkins/ Harvard get into top 10 med schools?

Of course, it matters, DrPreMedDocMDPhysician! It just doesn't matter quite as much as your grades and MCAT scores. But if you have two people applying to the same school with the same scores, and one of them graduated from Berkeley and the other from Cal State, the Berkeley grad will definitely have an edge.

Anecdotally, I remember at my Columbia interview, they posted a list of everyone's schools outside of the room where you wait for your interviewer. The only public schools on the whole list were UCLA and UC Berkeley. All of the others were ivies. So I think certain schools care about this type of thing more than others.

 

[154465]

You're super cool.

Sarcasm is cruise control for cool! Seriously!

Thanks for the compliment.

 

[Jaded03]

Well, I believe there is some leniency to "elite" schools. Whether or not this is just, isn't in question here. Ivy League medical schools are in a "league" they like to keep their pool of students as supposedly the world at large recognizes them as better than everyone else. Don't get personal about it.

Yes, the range of abilities is much wider in state schools and not so in upper tier schools. This does not necessarily correlate with easiness of the GPA per se. Seeing the material and content of both. I'd say they're learning the exact same things. The only REAL difference is a Curve/Crazy exam school versus a Non-curved/Fair exam school. What you call "inflation" is up to you. Is it better to know 90% of the material? Or is it better to know 20% more than the average number of material learned?

Regardless of how hard it is to get a high GPA in ANY school, all else equal, the prestige of the school matters. Medical school is for the most part elitist. A few schools are now afraid of the diversity issue, so they're going for more broad scopes. So I think this is LESS of an issue, but I totally think it's there.

-(No, I'm not some Ivy Leaguer.)

 

[8744]

The real question should be, "Why is it so important that you to attend a Top 10 medical school?"

There is no way to answer this question without appearing incredibly shallow.

 

[154465]

The real question should be, "Why is it so important that you to attend a Top 10 medical school?"

There is no way to answer this question without appearing incredibly shallow.

Michigan is a top 10 school and I would love to attend because of their curriculum, their awesome medical center, and its close to home. That isn't shallow.

I guess I would love to attend Wayne State for the same reasons, so it doesn't matter where I end up.

 

[SigurRos]

The MCATs are the great equalizer when it comes to validating the worth of your gpa. I got to a public school which I am fairly sure is harder than the elite schools in my state-- but of course adcomms out of state won't realize this. If you have a strong showing at the MCAT, your high state school gpa will be validated. Yet, the opposite is true if you do poorly, because it will tell adcomms that your school was just easier and fully explains your high GPA. I chose to go to a state school personally because of cost. I could have easily attended cornell (easiest ivy to get into) but opted not to because right now I am going on a full ride + living stipend for undergraduate. I have no regrets as I've been able to distinguish myself as evident by my 3 interview offers already. If you want it to happen, it will. Don't let your dream die because of your UG institution!

 

[Jaded03]

The MCATs are the great equalizer when it comes to validating the worth of your gpa. I got to a public school which I am fairly sure is harder than the elite schools in my state-- but of course adcomms out of state won't realize this. If you have a strong showing at the MCAT, your high state school gpa will be validated. Yet, the opposite is true if you do poorly, because it will tell adcomms that your school was just easier and fully explains your high GPA. I chose to go to a state school personally because of cost. I could have easily attended cornell (easiest ivy to get into) but opted not to because right now I am going on a full ride + living stipend for undergraduate. I have no regrets as I've been able to distinguish myself as evident by my 3 interview offers already. If you want it to happen, it will. Don't let your dream die because of your UG institution!

I totally agree. I don't think the question was of dreams dying, were they? I thought this was about having an easier time. You don't think there's ANY bias or leniency? Congrats though. I have no doubts in a person from whatever institution has a good shot at medical school. I was just expressing the truth that some schools are given some GPA or MCAT breaks for prestige WHICH would not be bestowed on your average state school applicant. (If I'm wrong...I'll let you know by my status 😛)

 

[Medicine929]

I believe that undergrad school does matter to a certain extent. While prestige is always a factor, high grade point averages are high grade point averages. Even some public schools that might not be in the known as the most prestigious schools have high ranked science programs. Although when it comes down to a student with a 4.0 and an average mcat of 13 from Stanford will be more appealing than one with identical stats from San Jose State.

 

[Nasrudin]

This issue will never fade from the scene here. It's kind of like the whole penis size issue. All the ingredients are right for continued cyclical bantering.

The facts are always the same. Some chicks, like their status-queen med school counterparts, care enormously what kind of stuff you're packin. Others don't. Some claim they don't and really do. Some you might think they do but they really don't.

Either way you know what your packin and there's nothing you can do about it....so don't worry about it. Whoever gives you the acceptance(s)...you just take the ride going your way.

 

[Law2Doc]

This issue will never fade from the scene here. It's kind of like the whole penis size issue. All the ingredients are right for continued cyclical bantering.

It will never change on pre-allo, but the participants in this banter tend to see more of the big picture once they get further down the road to their career. Preallo is full of "shoo-in" and "guarantee" language -- the suggestion that if you accomplish X,Y and Z you are "set". Once you get to med school that all gets shaken up, you realize you are never going to be "set"; that it's a very "put up or shut up" environment with much stiffer competition, and you start to understand that your own accomplishments have a much more visibly direct effect on your future than any other factor. The smartest hardest working people will generally end up where they belong regardless of which vehicle they hitch a ride on, the posers who want to consider the school logo on their sweater to be the end all be all of their career often languish..

 

[smuwillobrien]

Isn't it obvious?

 

[BlackSails]

I want this list. Also, can anyone teach me optimization? I'm seriously going to bomb this exam.

Take the discriminant of the hessian matrix, and test all the stationary points with it. Then parametrize the border of the domain (if it is a closed domain), and take the derivative. Test the critical points. Plug the points back into the equation and see which max is the highest, and which min is the lowest.




In 1 variable, do it like this:
Take the derivative of f. Set this equal to 0, and find all the values of x that satisify this. These values are the critical points. You can either just plug all these points in to see if they are the highest or lowest points, or you can seperate them according to max and min with the 2nd derivative test. If the 2nd dervative is positive, the point is a local max, negative, it is a local min. At 0, the test is inconclusive, and you have to use other methods.