If someone comes in asking for syringes and has obvious track marks do you sell

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Is it legal to refuse to sell them to the person? What do you do in this situation?

 

[thethinker]

Funny of you to mention this. My sister is a pharmacist, and she was telling me a story about this yesterday. She was telling me that a lot of the people asking for them come up with really far out stories, like their mother is bedridden and needs her insulin, etc. etc. She just asks them to show her a prescription or give her the name of a relative that has a prescription for insulin or something else that needs to be injected, or else she won't sell them.

Since a physician hasn't specifically prescribed needles to the patient, it's up to the pharmacist whether or not to sell them. (At least this is the case in Michigan, not sure if other states are different).

 

[Girl7]

At my store, we used to sell them without asking any proof because our pharmacy manager didn't care, he was like "they are going walk around and get it from somewhere else then why not sell here", but now our manager is like we have to some kind of proof like empty box or if they have filled prescription for insulin before at this store and what not......so just ask for proof🙂

 

[ageldred]

I would rather sell them new needles than have them reuse needles they find.

 

[117296]

I would rather sell them new needles than have them reuse needles they find.

Amen to that.

 

[Knickerbocker]

This one has no simple answer.

Can you trust junkies to be responsible with their new needles? After just one use, the needles are no longer new. What about other junkies they associate with? These people are in a poor mental state and will steal needles from each other.

IMO, giving out needles increases the number of needles in the environment - needles in the hands of junkies and needles carelessly tossed into the trash and environment. Sanitation workers and children really have to worry about being pricked in some parts of the country.

For this reason, I support needle exchange programs, but I don't like the idea of allowing the number of needles "in the wild" to dramatically increase.

 

[OKgirl]

Some people will sell needles to anyone: http://www.koco.com/video/15088774/index.html

At any place, you have the right to refuse service.

 

[nerv12345]

Some people will sell needles to anyone: http://www.koco.com/video/15088774/index.html

geez!! a 19 year old dope fiend...what has this world come to

 

[tharper14]

I would rather sell them new needles than have them reuse needles they find.

I totally agree.

Giving out needles increases the number of needles in the environment - needles in the hands of junkies and needles carelessly tossed into the trash and environment. Sanitation workers and children really have to worry about being pricked in some parts of the country.

For this reason, I support needle exchange programs, but I don't like the idea of allowing the number of needles "in the wild" to dramatically increase.

But I also agree with knickerbocker. There's no right answer here. It's true that drug-users will always find a way to get needles... whether it be by stealing, reusing, or sharing. Desperate times call for desperate measures. It's also true that most drug-users cannot be trusted to be responsible in their needle disposal.

I think, like knickerbocker said, the only way to deal with the syringe problem is to provide needle-exchange programs in a "safe" place where healthcare workers provide clean syringes and dispose of used syringes safely.

Research has shown that needle-exchange programs actually reduce the transmission of HIV among drug-users and that it does not increase the incidence of drug-use. However, it does nothing to reduce the use of drugs. Should we, as future health-care workers, refuse to provide a means of reducing the transmission of HIV or force drug-users to reuse needles and risk the increase of HIV transmission among users? I agree there is no simeple answer to this question... some people have suggested that physicians should provide drug-users with prescriptions for syringes. However, I still think needle-exchange programs are the best way to go. If only the government would support these programs instead of their current no-tolerance stance, perhaps pharmacists would not be faced with this problem in the first place.

 

[OKgirl]

But I also agree with knickerbocker. There's no right answer here. It's true that drug-users will always find a way to get needles... whether it be by stealing, reusing, or sharing. Desperate times call for desperate measures. It's also true that most drug-users cannot be trusted to be responsible in their needle disposal.

I think, like knickerbocker said, the only way to deal with the syringe problem is to provide needle-exchange programs in a "safe" place where healthcare workers provide clean syringes and dispose of used syringes safely.

Research has shown that needle-exchange programs actually reduce the transmission of HIV among drug-users and that it does not increase the incidence of drug-use. However, it does nothing to reduce the use of drugs. Should we, as future health-care workers, refuse to provide a means of reducing the transmission of HIV or force drug-users to reuse needles and risk the increase of HIV transmission among users? I agree there is no simeple answer to this question... some people have suggested that physicians should provide drug-users with prescriptions for syringes. However, I still think needle-exchange programs are the best way to go. If only the government would support these programs instead of their current no-tolerance stance, perhaps pharmacists would not be faced with this problem in the first place.

But should healthcare providers make it easier for people to do drugs? When those people decided to do drugs that way, they pretty much said they don't care about getting diseases. Besides, most of the drugs that are shot up can be done other ways.

I think a better solution for this deal would to make rehab more easily available to everyone.

 

[tharper14]

But should healthcare providers make it easier for people to do drugs? When those people decided to do drugs that way, they pretty much said they don't care about getting diseases. Besides, most of the drugs that are shot up can be done other ways.

I think a better solution for this deal would to make rehab more easily available to everyone.

One of the roles of healthcare providers is to reduce the transmission of diseases. I don't think that drug-users "don't care about getting diseases." Drug-users aren't a special breed of people that just think "**** it, if I get HIV, I'm cool with that." Most are just young and think that it will NEVER happen to them. But even so, I don't think that healthcare professionals should just sit back and allow a group of people to increase the incidence of any disease in the population because those people are intentionally harming themselves. The more people with HIV--or any transmitable disease for that matter--the more likely that other people can be exposed to that disease. So yes, while needle-exchange does not help the drug-user from not doing drugs, at least it decreases the risk of others to the exposure of those diseases.

And yes, drugs can be taken in other ways rather than injected, but drug-users eventually choose to inject drugs because it gives them the quickest high (well, so I've heard... I figured this must be true seeingas most people are horrified at the thought of needles, let alone sticking one into themselves!)

I do agree that rehab needs to be more accessible to drug-users, but drug-users cannot be helped until they want to be helped. In the mean time, providing clean needles will help to keep them disease-free before they get there.

Having said all this, I still don't know if I'd be comfortable, as a pharmacist, in giving needles to an obvious drug-user. Like I said in the previous post, I support needle-exchange rather than just providing drug-users with clean needles. At least that way, I would know that I am not increasing the amount of used needles in the community and perhaps inadvertently increasing the chances of an innocent person being infected by stepping on a used needle.

 

[PharmDstudent]

I think we need to distribute safer syringes.

http://www.safegardmedical.com/securegard.html

 

[tharper14]

I think we need to distribute safer syringes.
http://www.safegardmedical.com/securegard.html

That's AWESOME! I'm sure they would be more expensive but definately a more safer disposal.

 

[OKgirl]

One of the roles of healthcare providers is to reduce the transmission of diseases. I don't think that drug-users "don't care about getting diseases." Drug-users aren't a special breed of people that just think "**** it, if I get HIV, I'm cool with that." Most are just young and think that it will NEVER happen to them. But even so, I don't think that healthcare professionals should just sit back and allow a group of people to increase the incidence of any disease in the population because those people are intentionally harming themselves. The more people with HIV--or any transmitable disease for that matter--the more likely that other people can be exposed to that disease. So yes, while needle-exchange does not help the drug-user from not doing drugs, at least it decreases the risk of others to the exposure of those diseases.

I guess that the people that use those drugs really aren't in the state of mind to think about the consequences/possibility. I'm not saying that they would be cool with getting HIV, I mean that most don't care what they have to do in order to get high.

I wonder how many drug users are actually HIV+?

I am interested in helping others get well, not helping people hurt themselves and others.

I think we need to distribute safer syringes.


http://www.safegardmedical.com/securegard.html

Those are really neat, but I can't seem tell if they can be reused.

 

[tharper14]

I am interested in helping others get well, not helping people hurt themselves and others.

I do see your point of view, and I'm sure most people would disagree with mine but... it just seems as though you are saying that pharmacists, and perhaps all healthcare professionals, should not provide drug-users with clean needles to send them the message that it is harmful to them, and we are in the business of making them better, not worse.

My question is: Do you think that drug-users will stop injecting drugs just because society makes it difficult for them to obtain clean needles? Do you think that this will lead them to consider smoking the drug instead (or whatever else they can do to get the drug into their system)? The answer is: of course not. They will get the needles no matter what, and the more difficult it is for them to get them, the more they will rely on sharing needles and consequently, increase the spread of diseases.

Are there a lot of HIV+ drug-users? The majority of HIV transmission in the USA is contracted by male-to-male sexual contact, but intravenous drug-use accounts for ~24% of HIV transmissions. Pretty high if you ask me. That figure could go way down if more needle-exchange programs were available to them. Btw, I got this figure from the CDC, website provided below:

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/surveillance/resources/reports/2005report/table6.htm

Anyway, that is just my thoughts on the matter. I know there is no right or wrong answer.

 

[Shprot]

I work for an independant pharmacy and we don't sell any syringes if we are suspecting something. The head pharmacist is also very firm in his decision.

 

[UES Girl]

I guess that the people that use those drugs really aren't in the state of mind to think about the consequences/possibility. I'm not saying that they would be cool with getting HIV, I mean that most don't care what they have to do in order to get high.

I wonder how many drug users are actually HIV+?

I am interested in helping others get well, not helping people hurt themselves and others.


Those are really neat, but I can't seem tell if they can be reused.

Your logic to me just seems really foreign. This reminds me a lot of people trying to promote abstinence instead of promoting safer sex practices. You ask: But why should healthcare providers make it easier for people to do drugs ? Because it's not your purpose as a healthcare provider to impose your personal negative feelings about their drug use onto the drug users. Your purpose as a HEALTHcare provider is to promote health. If they want a syringe - they are going to go out and get it. If not a sterile syringe then a potentially HIV infected syringe from someone else. So technically by refusing to sell a sterile syringe to someone who is absolutely pre-determned to do drugs you may have INDIRECTLY and unknowingly caused them to get infected. By not helping drug users to get access to safe strerile syringes if anything you hurt 🙁 them and not help them.

 

[tharper14]

So technically by refusing to sell a sterile syringe to someone who is absolutely pre-determned to do drugs you may have INDIRECTLY and unknowingly caused them to get infected. By not helping drug users to get access to safe strerile syringes if anything you hurt 🙁 them and not help them.

Thanks Cheb, I was thinking I was the only one with the same thoughts!

 

[UES Girl]

Thanks Cheb, I was thinking I was the only one with the same thoughts!

No problem, do not worry we are not alone.🙂🙂🙂 We actually already discussed this issue before with my friends and all have very similar opinion.

 

[tharper14]

No problem, do not worry we are not alone.🙂🙂🙂 We actually already discussed this issue before with my friends and all have very similar opinion.

Glad I'm not the only one 🙂

 

[Knickerbocker]

Your purpose as a HEALTHcare provider is to promote health. If they want a syringe - they are going to go out and get it. If not a sterile syringe then a potentially HIV infected syringe from someone else. So technically by refusing to sell a sterile syringe to someone who is absolutely pre-determned to do drugs you may have INDIRECTLY and unknowingly caused them to get infected. By not helping drug users to get access to safe strerile syringes if anything you hurt 🙁 them and not help them.

I disagree. You are providing syringes that are sterile for one use only. After that, you don't know what people and their shooting gallery friends do with needles (probably still share them). You can't rely on them to dispose of needles properly, either.

Also note that the needles aren't free. I don't see junkies making buying lots of new needles a priority when their focus is buying drugs.

These people need rehabilitation, not more needles.

Oh, and I just want to say again that I support needle *exchange* programs. Those are shown to make a difference in addition to keeping an equilibrium for needles "in the wild" instead of increasing them.

 

[OKgirl]

Can you trust junkies to be responsible with their new needles? After just one use, the needles are no longer new. What about other junkies they associate with? These people are in a poor mental state and will steal needles from each other.

Exactly. Besides, the needle exchange programs are paid for with our tax money. I rather have the money go to the education system or to fix our roads.

Your purpose as a HEALTHcare provider is to promote health. If they want a syringe - they are going to go out and get it. If not a sterile syringe then a potentially HIV infected syringe from someone else. So technically by refusing to sell a sterile syringe to someone who is absolutely pre-determned to do drugs you may have INDIRECTLY and unknowingly caused them to get infected. By not helping drug users to get access to safe strerile syringes if anything you hurt 🙁 them and not help them.

How is helping someone do drugs PROMOTING their health? Either way (new needle or infected needle), they are pretty much killing themselves.

Which is worse a) knowingly supporting someone's drug habit that could eventually kill themselves and an innocent person or b)letting them use an infected needle and risking becoming ill and eventually dying (but I think that chances are that they would probably die from using drugs before dying from HIV)?

They also resort to things such as prostitution in order to get drug money. That can cause HIV too, so should we help them get drug money too?

Couldn't you as a pharmacist get in trouble for knowingly aiding them with the illegal act?

 

[UES Girl]

Exactly. Besides, the needle exchange programs are paid for with our tax money. I rather have the money go to the education system or to fix our roads.


How is helping someone do drugs PROMOTING their health? Either way (new needle or infected needle), they are pretty much killing themselves.

I am saying IT IS NOT UP TO YOU as a pharmacist to decide whether someone has a right to do drugs or kill themselves as you call it. You are right: needle or no needle they are killing themlseves.We all know drug addicts need help, afterall drug additction is a desease.However, drug addiction is not something that can be cured overnight. It takes days, months and sometimes years. While they are getting help, they might relapse - and what you should do is look out for them and make sure they do not harm themselves even further,not judge them based on YOUR beliefs ONLY. You clearly had never had someone in your closed cicrle die/affected by drugs. Selling sterile needles IS NOT promoting drug use it is simply trying to make it's safe for the drug users. Do you not realize if they don't get it from you - they will get it from someone else.

Also Knickerbocker I agree with you - this issue is very sensitive and should be strictly regulated. I by no means encourage to give out loads of syringes out - specially since they are not sterile after one use. I just think it there has to be other solution to this problem - rather than just completely refusing drug users clean syringes.


Like I said this whole crazy dilemma reminds me of your abstinence programs - when instead of promoting safe sex practices you teach people not to have sex completely before marriage. How's that working so far, not so well is it ?🙂😀

 

[tharper14]

Besides, the needle exchange programs are paid for with our tax money. I rather have the money go to the education system or to fix our roads.

How is helping someone do drugs PROMOTING their health? Either way (new needle or infected needle), they are pretty much killing themselves.

Which is worse a) knowingly supporting someone's drug habit that could eventually kill themselves and an innocent person or b)letting them use an infected needle and risking becoming ill and eventually dying (but I think that chances are that they would probably die from using drugs before dying from HIV)?

They also resort to things such as prostitution in order to get drug money. That can cause HIV too, so should we help them get drug money too?

First of all, needle-exchange programs are NOT federally funded. US has a ZERO-TOLERANCE drug policy. These programs are currently PRIVATELY funded in the US. Most politicians, I'm sure you would be happy to know, do not support needle-exchange programs and force these programs to operate largely underground.

Second of all, for someone that is going to be a future healthcare professional, you seem to have a disturbingly uncaring attitude towards drug-users. These people need help... hoping that they get HIV by sharing infected needles is NOT the help that they need. Like I have said, again and again, drug-users will continue to inject drugs no matter if they are provided with clean needles or not. Providing them with a safe means of injecting those drugs at least prevents them from contracting a life-threatening disease and decreases the transmission of those diseases to others. As you mentioned, they pay for their drugs any way they can, prostitution included. Hopefully, those people that pay for sex have the good sense to use condoms, but if they don't, wouldn't you prefer that drug-users are using clean needles rather than resorting to sharing needles and potentially increasing the risk of others getting infected, non-drug-users included?

Like I said also, I support needle-exchange programs where users can get FREE needles in exchange for used ones rather than pharmacists selling them needles. This is a problem that needs to be addressed by the government as well as local communities, but the government seems to think the no tolerance policy is working. If it were, pharmacists wouldn't have to deal with this problem in the first place.

 

[OKgirl]

I understand that it isn't MY decision whether or not to sell them. If its legal and there is absolutely no way for me to be held liable for it, I have no problem with it. I was unaware that some states are allowed to sell anyone needles. I'm just not willing to risk loosing my license or get a criminal offense for it.

I simply don't like the fact that their addiction is putting a ton of people at risk and those innocent people have no way of helping. People get killed by drug users and have no way of stopping it from happening. The drug user is not charged with murder because they weren't in a stable state of mind. Maybe I am just looking for tougher drug use laws?

Maybe the needle exchange programs are good, but it still doens't fix the problem. Those needles can be shared too. It's a situation that can't be fixed.

I've seen both sides of what drugs can do, and many of those people would love to go to rehab, but simply don't have the means to do so. This has so many more problems than just clean needles.

 

[tharper14]

If its legal and there is absolutely no way for me to be held liable for it, I have no problem with it.

After all you have said, you have no problem with selling needles if it's legal?!?!

Anyway, if you're interested in researching this topic further I recommend some insightful sites:

http://www.drugpolicy.org/reducingharm/needleexchan/

http://www.caps.ucsf.edu/pubs/FS/NEPrev.php

http://www.soros.org/initiatives/health/focus/ihrd/articles_publications/publications/fact_20070927

These are just a few. It might help you understand the importance of the accessability of sterile needles to drug-users. You're completely entitled to your opinion, but research indicates that it is more beneficial -- for the drug-user and the community -- to provide sterile needles for drug-users rather than to force them to share needles. If anything, providing needles to drug-users allows healthcare professionals to provide referrals to drug treatment, detoxification, social services, and primary health care. My main concern as a pharmacist is the health of the community I live in and that means preventing the spread of HIV and hepatitis. My second concern is providing help for the drug-user when he/she is ready/willing/able to commit to stop using drugs.

 

[UES Girl]

After all you have said, you have no problem with selling needles if it's legal?!?!

Anyway, if you're interested in researching this topic further I recommend some insightful sites:

http://www.drugpolicy.org/reducingharm/needleexchan/

http://www.caps.ucsf.edu/pubs/FS/NEPrev.php

http://www.soros.org/initiatives/health/focus/ihrd/articles_publications/publications/fact_20070927

These are just a few. It might help you understand the importance of the accessability of sterile needles to drug-users. You're completely entitled to your opinion, but research indicates that it is more beneficial -- for the drug-user and the community -- to provide sterile needles for drug-users rather than to force them to share needles. If anything, providing needles to drug-users allows healthcare professionals to provide referrals to drug treatment, detoxification, social services, and primary health care. My main concern as a pharmacist is the health of the community I live in and that means preventing the spread of HIV and hepatitis. My second concern is providing help for the drug-user when he/she is ready/willing/able to commit to stop using drugs.

You couldn't have said it better. I have a hard time expressing myself, especially in arguments like this. But you basically said everything I wanted to say.👍👍👍

 

[OKgirl]

After all you have said, you have no problem with selling needles if it's legal?!?!

lol. I personally wouldn't want to and it would be hard knowing that I'm aiding drug use, but if the law says I can and my employer says to, then I will. I know that personal views should be put aside, and I just want to keep myself out of trouble (lawsuit for not selling or jail for selling).

Maybe a better option would be making all needles where they can only be used once?

 

[tharper14]

Maybe a better option would be making all needles where they can only be used once?

Yes, great idea! If this could be possible I would definitely be all for it! 🙂

 

[sanfranalaska]

After all you have said, you have no problem with selling needles if it's legal?!?!

Anyway, if you're interested in researching this topic further I recommend some insightful sites:

http://www.drugpolicy.org/reducingharm/needleexchan/

http://www.caps.ucsf.edu/pubs/FS/NEPrev.php

http://www.soros.org/initiatives/health/focus/ihrd/articles_publications/publications/fact_20070927

These are just a few. It might help you understand the importance of the accessability of sterile needles to drug-users. You're completely entitled to your opinion, but research indicates that it is more beneficial -- for the drug-user and the community -- to provide sterile needles for drug-users rather than to force them to share needles. If anything, providing needles to drug-users allows healthcare professionals to provide referrals to drug treatment, detoxification, social services, and primary health care. My main concern as a pharmacist is the health of the community I live in and that means preventing the spread of HIV and hepatitis. My second concern is providing help for the drug-user when he/she is ready/willing/able to commit to stop using drugs.

I agree with you! I have a friend who is a former heroin addict and while I never knew her when she was one, I'm so glad she had access to clean needles or she may not be here today because of HIV/hepatitis or other blood born diseases. I think needle exchange programs are a good idea as well, it allows addicts to form a trusting relationship with health providers and volunteers. I've seen my uncle battle drug addiction as well, and addicts find it hard to trust others. Trust is an important part of rehabilitation. I also think that there should be some sort of community education on drugs and combinations of prescription and illicit drugs so that people that are going to use (because they'll use anyways) don't take fatal combinations or send themselves to the ER.

 

[tharper14]

You couldn't have said it better. I have a hard time expressing myself, especially in arguments like this. But you basically said everything I wanted to say.👍👍👍

No worries Cheb... I knew what you were getting at!