if you could change the pre-med process in ONE significant way...

[Zephyrus]

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As conscientious, if not slightly anal-retentive purveyors of a medical forum, I'm assuming all of us at one point or another have thought to ourselves, "Gee, this whole process would make much more sense if _____."
I'm curious to hear your ideas. What would you do? Change the format of the MCAT? Abolish it altogether? Decrease emphasis on grades? Alter the pre-requisites for medical school? Share your thoughts.

Z

 

[Law2Doc]

As conscientious, if not slightly anal-retentive purveyors of a medical forum, I'm assuming all of us at one point or another have thought to ourselves, "Gee, this whole process would make much more sense if _____."
I'm curious to hear your ideas. What would you do? Change the format of the MCAT? Abolish it altogether? Decrease emphasis on grades? Alter the pre-requisites for medical school? Share your thoughts.

Z

A match system for med school admissions (as in residencies) would be useful. It would maximize top choices, and make sure people didn't sit on waitlists while others mulled decisions.

 

[LauraMac]

have only one primary application with no secondaries or have every school have its own application altogether with no primary application.

oh, and make it less expensive!

 

[HoyaMax]

Rather than figuratively jump through hoops, have us ACTUALLY jump through hoops!

 

[shahalam]

if they could use a time machine to see who would make the best doctors. then, rather than going through all this bullcrap, automatic acceptance!!1 😀

 

[gujuDoc]

I know you said one, but I'm going to list a few things:

1. reduce the price to apply
2. better advisors for premeds
3. As pointed out above, make secondaries dissappear or use them as the applications.

I, however, disagree with the person that said that it should be a match program. I think its beneficial to know that you have a choice if possible. However, I would get rid of rolling admissions and do your admissions at a couple times in a year, like in dental school application processes. Then give the students the chance to decide where they want to go.

Also, I would make MCAT scores come out sooner. But that one is already being worked on by changing the format of the test by 2007. So that one doesn't really count.

If I had to pick one of th above only, then I'll go with choice one listed above.

 

[dajimmers]

Every change I can think of introduces new problems in certain situations- thats why it's so hard to "fix". Nothing will be perfect.

My biggest gripe is the cost of secondaries. Unnecessary and very annoying.

More financial help with interview flights would also be nice. Airlines should realize that we want to be doctors, and that doctors fly often. So they should discount our flights now, in hopes we "repay" them in the future...

 

[Scubadoc]

As much as I hated the MCAT, I definitely wouldn't abolish it. It is, in a way, an equalizer. People who may have higher grades because they have cheated their way through school are not likely to score super high on that.

I'd do something about the cost to apply as well. It's nuts how much we pay just to add schools to AMCAS, then the secondaries all charging upwards of $100, then the cost to actually go to the interviews. You're in the hole before you even start.

 

[Shredder]

As conscientious, if not slightly anal-retentive purveyors of a medical forum, I'm assuming all of us at one point or another have thought to ourselves, "Gee, this whole process would make much more sense if _____."
I'm curious to hear your ideas. What would you do? Change the format of the MCAT? Abolish it altogether? Decrease emphasis on grades? Alter the pre-requisites for medical school? Share your thoughts.

Z

i think a record should be kept of the amount of money you manage to amass--on your own--during college, and used as a weighty credential. more credit if you use some of it for philanthropy.

aside from that: increase mcat emphasis, decrease EC.

 

[45408]

Obviously, decrease costs, and I do agree that the AMCAS can be redundant, since a lot of secondaries ask many of the same questions.

 

[gujuDoc]

As much as I hated the MCAT, I definitely wouldn't abolish it. It is, in a way, an equalizer. People who may have higher grades because they have cheated their way through school are not likely to score super high on that.

I'd do something about the cost to apply as well. It's nuts how much we pay just to add schools to AMCAS, then the secondaries all charging upwards of $100, then the cost to actually go to the interviews. You're in the hole before you even start.

I wouldn't abolish the MCAT either. I would just make the scores come sooner because the real pain is not studying for it so much as agonizing over what you got for 2 months. But luckily they are both shortening the test and making the scores come out quicker in the near future.

 

[Shredder]

I wouldn't abolish the MCAT either. I would just make the scores come sooner because the real pain is not studying for it so much as agonizing over what you got for 2 months. But luckily they are both shortening the test and making the scores come out quicker in the near future.

we'll be talking about the good old days of the mcat. or the bad old days.

 

[gujuDoc]

we'll be talking about the good old days of the mcat. or the bad old days.

Yah, its funny how everytime I get something done, it changes shortly thereafter.

Case in point: When I took genchem, the scales and the class run differently. Likewise, the labs were also very different.

Same thing with other classes I took. As soon as I finished with them, they got harder or easier. It always happens to me.

We'll see. I wonder whether it will be harder or easier for peopel who take it in 2007 with the new format.

 

[Scubadoc]

I'm sure glad I took it before it goes completely computerized. Granted, now I have to computerized boards to look forward to.

 

[DrBowtie]

I, however, disagree with the person that said that it should be a match program. I think its beneficial to know that you have a choice if possible. However, I would get rid of rolling admissions and do your admissions at a couple times in a year, like in dental school application processes. Then give the students the chance to decide where they want to go.QUOTE]

With the match, you do get to make choices. YOU rank the programs in the order that you would like to go there. So in essence it is saying if you had acceptances from all schools choose where you would like to go most...then second...

The only problems with a match type program is that it would be hard to rank all the interviewers (Med schools interview an extremely larger amount of applicants). Also finaid situations sway some decisions so I don't know how that would work.

 

[gujuDoc]

I, however, disagree with the person that said that it should be a match program. I think its beneficial to know that you have a choice if possible. However, I would get rid of rolling admissions and do your admissions at a couple times in a year, like in dental school application processes. Then give the students the chance to decide where they want to go.QUOTE]

With the match, you do get to make choices. YOU rank the programs in the order that you would like to go there. So in essence it is saying if you had acceptances from all schools choose where you would like to go most...then second...

The only problems with a match type program is that it would be hard to rank all the interviewers (Med schools interview an extremely larger amount of applicants). Also finaid situations sway some decisions so I don't know how that would work.

But a person may rank something number one now, but really not want to end up there. I'm personally for the way it is now. I don't like the whole match idea. I'd rather know I have my time in making what will be one of the most important decisions of my life. Because that is a decision that affects 4 years of your life and there are other things to consider like financial aid packets, location, etc.

 

[humuhumu]

I'd add biochemistry and physiology to the prereqs. I'd add anatomy too if it were offered by more undergrad schools. Medical school curricula could then focus more on pathology and spend less time getting the English majors up to speed. Hopefully the change would also reduce the number of applicants.

Yes, we want doctors with some background in the humanities, but first and foremost, doctors should be strong in science.

 

[DrBowtie]

But a person may rank something number one now, but really not want to end up there. I'm personally for the way it is now. I don't like the whole match idea. I'd rather know I have my time in making what will be one of the most important decisions of my life. Because that is a decision that affects 4 years of your life and there are other things to consider like financial aid packets, location, etc.

You would have time to decide. You rank after you interview. Like I mentioned about finaid, that is the only thing that would need to be revamped. Why would a person rank something number one if they didn't want to go there. It is done after all interviews are complete and all prospective schools are seen. You would know the locations.

 

[gujuDoc]

You would have time to decide. You rank after you interview. Like I mentioned about finaid, that is the only thing that would need to be revamped. Why would a person rank something number one if they didn't want to go there. It is done after all interviews are complete and all prospective schools are seen. You would know the locations.

Because maybe that person felt it was the best school for them in the beginning. But after much more thought and maybe after othe circumstances, thought it was not the first choice school for them.

Either way, I really think its a horrible idea. I'm presonally fine with the way it is now.

What I do think should change is that all schools should be more like USF in giving you a direct response to your chances of getting off waitlists. In other words, waitlists should be ranked.

 

[DrBowtie]

In the beginning?
For the match, ranking lists are due Feb. 22 and Match Day is March 16.
How much will change in three weeks? Its not like new programs would contact you.

Also, how is that different from now? If a person thinks it is the best place for them now and withdraws all others, they can't go back to the other schools and say oops.

 

[Law2Doc]

Because maybe that person felt it was the best school for them in the beginning. But after much more thought and maybe after othe circumstances, thought it was not the first choice school for them.

Either way, I really think its a horrible idea. I'm presonally fine with the way it is now.

At some point you always have to make a decision. What's the difference if it has to be made in January or May? If you need more time to decide - you just start thinking about it earlier, and making yourself informed earlier. With whichever situation you use, there will be people who can decide well within the time frame and those who have trouble even with enormous amounts of time. You just have to adapt to the circumstances of the system. But I do agree with the point that financial aid info might need to be provided earlier if in a match type system.

 

[gujuDoc]

In the beginning?
For the match, ranking lists are due Feb. 22 and Match Day is March 16.
How much will change in three weeks? Its not like new programs would contact you.

Also, how is that different from now? If a person thinks it is the best place for them now and withdraws all others, they can't go back to the other schools and say oops.

Nevermind, I think I misunderstood you. I was referring to the scenario of a person who gets accepted in October at school A, and thinks she would like it. But then school B accepts her in say Jan, and thinks she likes B better so chooses B. But then in March, she realizes she wanted school A so now it is too late.

Nevermind, I cant' really explain what I mean. I think I misunderstood. However, I think for what you are saying, there can be another solution. Just have drop date be earlier then May 15th, on like April end. That'll probably work better. And have all schools rank their waitlists so you know your chances of getting off of one.

 

[bravotwozero]

Get better physics profs. I've had the constant misfortunes of coming across physics profs/tas/teachers that were obviously very intelligent and knowledgeable in their subject matter, but could not clearly explain concepts for the life of them.

 

[gujuDoc]

Get better physics profs. I've had the constant misfortunes of coming across physics profs/tas/teachers that were obviously very intelligent and knowledgeable in their subject matter, but could not clearly explain concepts for the life of them.

My school could use better physics professor. But I don't think that is really something about the process, so much as the department at a particular university, that needs to be changed.

 

[DrBowtie]

Nevermind, I think I misunderstood you. I was referring to the scenario of a person who gets accepted in October at school A, and thinks she would like it. But then school B accepts her in say Jan, and thinks she likes B better so chooses B. But then in March, she realizes she wanted school A so now it is too late.

Nevermind, I cant' really explain what I mean. I think I misunderstood. However, I think for what you are saying, there can be another solution. Just have drop date be earlier then May 15th, on like April end. That'll probably work better. And have all schools rank their waitlists so you know your chances of getting off of one.

I think you did misunderstand. With the match, no one would get accepted to anywhere any earlier than match day. It would also essentially eliminate waitlists and those applicants that didn't match can get on with bettering their apps for next year.

 

[Law2Doc]

Nevermind, I think I misunderstood you. I was referring to the scenario of a person who gets accepted in October at school A, and thinks she would like it. But then school B accepts her in say Jan, and thinks she likes B better so chooses B. But then in March, she realizes she wanted school A so now it is too late.

Nevermind, I cant' really explain what I mean. I think I misunderstood. However, I think for what you are saying, there can be another solution. Just have drop date be earlier then May 15th, on like April end. That'll probably work better. And have all schools rank their waitlists so you know your chances of getting off of one.

No - a match means there is just one acceptance and just one acceptance day. There will be no subsequent acceptances. All students rank their choices, and all schools rank their favorite applicants, and a fancy computer gives every student and school their highest possible matches. Thus no waitlists needed at all. That's how residencies work I believe.

 

[gujuDoc]

No - a match means there is just one acceptance and just one acceptance day. There will be no subsequent acceptances. All students rank their choices, and all schools rank their favorite applicants, and a fancy computer gives every student and school their highest possible matches. Thus no waitlists needed at all. That's how residencies work I believe.

See that's the problem I have with a match. I rather have multiple acceptances and then make a decision then a final decision based on one sole acceptance.

Residency is different. For med school acceptance, I don't see it as being necessary to adopt the same residency procedures. But that is my opinion.

 

[gujuDoc]

I think you did misunderstand. With the match, no one would get accepted to anywhere any earlier than match day. It would also essentially eliminate waitlists and those applicants that didn't match can get on with bettering their apps for next year.

Waitlists wouldn't be eliminated because there are still people who will drop an acceptance. Even if there is only one acceptance, there are still people who do drop acceptances after getting into med school for one reason or another. The sole intent of a waitlist is to make sure they'll have someone to take in the event of a nonfilled class. They'll still need back ups, albeit not as many, because there are always those people that do end up backing out. Furthermore, there are people who defer for a year to do other programs for a year, but may not decide this til later, so they'll need backups to fill in those spots for a year, while the deferred people start the following year.

So they still need a certain amount of waitlist applicants.

 

[Law2Doc]

Waitlists wouldn't be eliminated because there are still people who will drop an acceptance. Even if there is only one acceptance, there are still people who do drop acceptances after getting into med school for one reason or another. The sole intent of a waitlist is to make sure they'll have someone to take in the event of a nonfilled class. They'll still need back ups, albeit not as many, because there are always those people that do end up backing out. Furthermore, there are people who defer for a year to do other programs for a year, but may not decide this til later, so they'll need backups to fill in those spots for a year, while the deferred people start the following year.

So they still need a certain amount of waitlist applicants.

Well, I guess you could use waitlists as you described. The way residencies handle it, I believe, is called a "scramble", which means that during a very short time interval those who didn't get a match can call around to schools with still open spots and try and jump in - but I suspect this wouldn't be workable in a system where half the people who applied didn't get in... could get bloody.
I wouldn't really worry too much about it -- I don't think a match system is going to happen any time soon. But I still think if the kinks were worked out, it is a cleaner system, and would avoid (1) painfully long waitlists, and (2) the situation you see frequently under the current system where two people are each in at schools but where they would have really preferred the other's acceptance.

 

[nvshelat]

Wow, I can't believe no one has said it yet... ABOLISH ORGO! I really don't see how memorizing mechanisms is going to make us better doctors. I've been told you need Orgo for Biochem, but I'm sure we don't have to know the details of Hoffman Eliminations, etc.
I understand Orgo is supposed to help "weed out," but that can be done in any number of other ways (adcoms can use MCATs, other competitive classes, etc). I think in place of Organic we should have to take something more relevant to medicine, maybe like A/P, genetics, or something else. I also hate to add requirements, but I think it would be good to have students take a health care related course, such as medical sociology or health care management - something practical outside of the sciences.

 

[sunnyjohn]

Yep, kill O-chem.
👍

 

[humuhumu]

Wow, I can't believe no one has said it yet... ABOLISH ORGO! I really don't see how memorizing mechanisms is going to make us better doctors. I've been told you need Orgo for Biochem, but I'm sure we don't have to know the details of Hoffman Eliminations, etc.
I understand Orgo is supposed to help "weed out," but that can be done in any number of other ways (adcoms can use MCATs, other competitive classes, etc). I think in place of Organic we should have to take something more relevant to medicine, maybe like A/P, genetics, or something else. I also hate to add requirements, but I think it would be good to have students take a health care related course, such as medical sociology or health care management - something practical outside of the sciences.

Only a fraction of organic chemistry is directly relevant to biochemistry. One solution would be two orgos: one for chem majors, one for bio/premed. But there's something to be said for the intellectual rigor of hard-core orgo -- good practice for learning how to memorize details and apply principles.

 

[tank you]

Yep, kill O-chem.
👍

i liked orgo. 😍

 

[Fed Meat]

Mandatory courses in financial accounting and finance.

More emphasis on MCAT, less on ECs.

 

[MadameLULU]

id incorporate more regional interviews

 

[gujuDoc]

Wow, I can't believe no one has said it yet... ABOLISH ORGO! I really don't see how memorizing mechanisms is going to make us better doctors. I've been told you need Orgo for Biochem, but I'm sure we don't have to know the details of Hoffman Eliminations, etc.
I understand Orgo is supposed to help "weed out," but that can be done in any number of other ways (adcoms can use MCATs, other competitive classes, etc). I think in place of Organic we should have to take something more relevant to medicine, maybe like A/P, genetics, or something else. I also hate to add requirements, but I think it would be good to have students take a health care related course, such as medical sociology or health care management - something practical outside of the sciences.

I agree that they should make Anatomy, Physiology, and more core courses like those in med school act as requirements to get in. I think there's more relevance to learning A&P, genetics, etc.

However, I think they don't do this because they would rather you learn it their way in med school. So this is what I've been told over the years.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

1.) Inform pre-med advisors better.

2.) Keep the MCAT, but keep it in paper form. I dislike the new CAT format, where the computer basically decides what questions to give you based on prior ones. I think this is quite erroneous, since, based on my own experience with the MCAT, I have sometimes found "difficult questions" comparatively simple and have been totally blocked by questions that others thought were straightforward. I also like the opportunity to overview the entire test, and skip questions and go back to them, because other parts of the test can give hints on a question you may be stumped on.

3.) Cut the secondaries crap. That is just ridiculous, especially the fees. AMCAS gives them quite enough information to decide who to interview, I think the secondaries are gratuitous, especially tedious/hellish ones like Duke's.

4.) Subsidize the cost of interviews. If medical schools are really dedicated to removing the advantage of privilege, and want to help those who may have been at a financial disadvantage, it is hypocritical to be demanding that someone spend ~$300 to interview. Interviews should be covered in their entirety.

5.) Prerequisites: remove the English requirement, and make it a general literature/composition requirement intead (e.g. European history, Russian literature in translation, etc.). The other prerequisites seem fair, except for biochemistry and differential equations (at some programs).

 

[leechy]

id incorporate more regional interviews

I was actually about to post exactly the same thing. Interviews should be regional. People say they'd like to see the school, but you can always visit the school AFTER you get in, rather than wasting time getting a tour of a school you might not even get into. The cost and inconvenience of applying and interviewing at so many schools are unfair to lower / middle class applicants, or even people who are just plain busy with work or classes.

Also, I think interviews should be a little more standardized. Not necessarily cookie cutter, as each applicant has different experiences to talk about, but interviewers should be given better guidelines about what to ask about. It can be a little annoying to fly out to some place and then just have the interviewer blab on about themselves, or ask you about strange things. It also makes the process more of a crapshoot, as applicants have interviews that vary greatly in quality and length. I should add that some schools are definitely better about this aspect of things than others.

 

[MadameLULU]

4.) Subsidize the cost of interviews. If medical schools are really dedicated to removing the advantage of privilege, and want to help those who may have been at a financial disadvantage, it is hypocritical to be demanding that someone spend ~$300 to interview. Interviews should be covered in their entirety.

Some schools already do this, or at least take care of flight and lodging.

5.) Prerequisites: remove the English requirement, and make it a general literature/composition requirement intead (e.g. European history, Russian literature in translation, etc.). The other prerequisites seem fair, except for biochemistry and differential equations (at some programs).

I believe any type of literature would suffice for this requirement. I know that my Humanities course counted.

 

[samdwi]

As conscientious, if not slightly anal-retentive purveyors of a medical forum, I'm assuming all of us at one point or another have thought to ourselves, "Gee, this whole process would make much more sense if _____."
I'm curious to hear your ideas. What would you do? Change the format of the MCAT? Abolish it altogether? Decrease emphasis on grades? Alter the pre-requisites for medical school? Share your thoughts.

Z

If you can knockout a trial lawyer in one punch, you're in!!

(I don't advocate violence yada yada yada....)

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

Some schools already do this, or at least take care of flight and lodging.



I believe any type of literature would suffice for this requirement. I know that my Humanities course counted.

Really? I talked to my pre-med advisor about this, because I had taken art history, intro to philosophy, Russian literature in translation, and a sociology class, but she said that it has to say "English."

This goes back to my point about informing pre-med advisors.

 

[Rzarecta]

I agree that they should make Anatomy, Physiology, and more core courses like those in med school act as requirements to get in. I think there's more relevance to learning A&P, genetics, etc.

However, I think they don't do this because they would rather you learn it their way in med school. So this is what I've been told over the years.

Agreed. I was a nonscience major and my dad kept telling me not to sweat taking A&P (took A), because medical schools have their own preferred way. In either case, I dont remember a damn thing from anatomy besides the phrenic nerve.

 

[humuhumu]

5.) Prerequisites: remove the English requirement, and make it a general literature/composition requirement intead (e.g. European history, Russian literature in translation, etc.). The other prerequisites seem fair, except for biochemistry and differential equations (at some programs).

I think just about any course offered by an English Department would count. At least I hope so...

 

[Shredder]

Mandatory courses in financial accounting and finance.

More emphasis on MCAT, less on ECs.

a man after my own heart

 

[45408]

I believe any type of literature would suffice for this requirement. I know that my Humanities course counted.

I'm sure hoping so. I took a class through the honors program called "War Stories," as well as a English comp course. I hope the honors class counts as a literature course.

 

[deuist]

1. Get rid of organic chemistry as a pre-med requirement.

2. Reformat the MCAT to make it more relevant to medical school.

3. Make the AMCAS longer, with more essay questions and force the AMCAS to collect all of the letters of recommendation. Eliminate the secondaries.

 

[DrBowtie]

I don't understand how the MCAT could be more relevant to med school.
They could test biochem, histo, and physio but in the end everyone would be biology drones.
I don't see how they could test clinical stuff.

 

[deuist]

I don't understand how the MCAT could be more relevant to med school.
They could test biochem, histo, and physio but in the end everyone would be biology drones.
I don't see how they could test clinical stuff.

Maybe not clinic-specific, but questions tailored to general treatment of patients and privacy. My post was not to say that the MCAT should be like a medical school exam. However, I really don't see what electronic circuits has to do with practicing medicine.

 

[DrBowtie]

Yeah, I agree about the physics but it is my strong point so I am taking points where I can get them.
There has been talk about some sort of verbal interviewing section being kicked around by the AAMC which might accomplish what you were suggesting

 

[chocolate-e]

1. I agree w/ the idea of doing more regional interviews. It's nice to be able to see the school when you interview, but the cost of going to a lot of interviews really does select against those without as much money. I think there's already enough expense involved in the process to prove that we're serious about medical school.

2. It would be nice if interviews were more standardized, but how about making the laid-back, get-to-know-you interview the standard? After our interviews at a school that does them interrogation-style, one of my fellow applicants commented that she hadn't felt like she was able to really communicate who she was, her strengths, etc. I felt the same way. The questions were focused primarily on discussing yourself and your views in very abstract terms, and I'm not sure how helpful this really is--unless we're aiming for candidates whose primary area of expertise is analyzing their own pysche. Get someone talking concretely about their life and things they care about, and you will find out who they are.

3. Move away from the requirement/preference for the committee letter. LORs from a committee that may not even know the applicant aren't fair to either the applicant or the school. Better to get letters from professors who actually know you, your strengths, and your weaknesses.