If you could do it all over again would you go MD

[uthopeful]

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Hi I was hoping I could get some feedback from current DO students. I would like to know if any of you would have gone MD now that you are current med students. Would you have waited another year and reapply if you did not get in or would you have chosen your MD acceptance over your DO.

I ask because although I do believe in the DO theory I am still not very sure on the area of medicine I want to practice. I know there are DO's in every field but I am also aware how much harder it is to get into certian fields. So I wanted to know if any of you think it would have been worth waiting and reapplying.

This is not meant to have a DO vs MD battle. I could care less what letters my doctor has after his or her name. But the facts are it is eaiser to get into certain programs going MD. So I am just trying to make an informed decision from the experiences of others. All input will be very much appreciated.

 

[jhug]

no

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

Originally posted by uthopeful
I ask because although I do believe in the DO theory I am still not very sure on the area of medicine I want to practice.

From someone who is pretty cynical about what the "DO philosophy" actually is, I can tell you that I'm absolutely happy at my school. I'm considering some very competitive specialties, and though my mind if far from made up, I have no doubt that my school and myself can make me a competitive applicant for any field. Good luck.

 

[jhug]

sjs--- enjoying the christmas break??

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

Yeah, I am... I haven't studeied one bit. 🙂 How about you? Nice to see the wife and kids again?

 

[jhug]

it is great to be back with the crowd again!!!
i haven't touched phy/biochem either...it's nice to know i'm not the only one🙂🙂🙂

 

[mfred]

are you guys really wondering if someone is studying during Xmas break? that would constitute some sort of therapy. If I had to do it over again I would not go MD. There have been several points in the semester that I have claimed I would, but in the end no. I do get annoyed with some parts of OMM (while others should be taught to every doctor) and at times feel frustrated by the myopic approach that our school takes to osteopathy (but that is a post for another day). However, I love the people at my school, and I wouldn't trade them for an MD from harvard. In my opinion (and I am not really interesting in debating this or justifying my opinion😉 ), osteo schools attract a much more diverse easy going crowd that meshes better with my personality. As far as specialization- I really don't expect it to be a great handicap to be a DO. Maybe a little harder, but I always have access to AOA programs which as you probably know MD's do not.

 

[LovelyRita]

response to OP:

No.

 

[DrMom]

I absolutely would not have chosen anywhere other than where I am.

 

[bustbones26]

I am beggining to regret going DO for a few reasons.

First off, this COMLEX thing. 750 pencil and paper questions and it takes 8 weeks to get results. The USMLE's are important to the MD's but like burp compared to the COMLEX, computerized test and getting results faster. Also what is up with this new PE part of the COMLEX, think of how much $$ you are going to have to shell out to take the COMLEX now?

Let me ask you, most residency programs pay for their interns to take their step 3? Would you like to reimburse your MD's a few hundred dollars each to take the USMLE 3, or would you like to reimburse your DO's a few thousand to take the COMLEX3? It sounds stupid become a determining factor if you get offered a residency spot or not.

The DO's must like to shoot themselves in the foot. They are popping up new schools all over the country, yet to not have enough residency programs for all 0of us. Now, they are demanding to every hospital have at least one DO residency program if they want to have an osteopathic internship program.

So how many hospitals out there to you think are going to go spend extra money on organizing a DO program just so they can keep DO interns at their hospital? If it were my hospital, hate to say it, I'd say forget it, just have ACGME programs and for4get the frustatrting rules of the AOA.

I do not regret going DO, but I just htink if I had gone MD, some of the frustrations and nuisances of being a DO just would never be there.

 

[sophiejane]

The COMLEX is going to be on computer within the next few years, or so I am told.

Might be too late for you, though.

And personally, I am glad there is a PE section on the COMLEX. I don't think it will be long before the USMLE has the same requirement. We need to be accountable for clinical skills--and I think this is often where DO students do best.

I think it is amusing the things people get upset about. In the long run, whether or not you took a test on paper or on computer, or whether they tested you clinical skills, or how much the test cost...these things are so minor.

Residency spots...that is not minor, but I still don't why people are so upset about this issue. Many, many spots go unfilled every year--even AOA spots. (See the most recent JAOA for the stats). There will always be competition for spots at the best programs--this is the same for everyone. But there is no reason why anyone should NOT get residency training if they pursue it. Think about it--hospitals LOVE residents--they get contracted labor for 3 + years at a fraction of the cost of what they pay attendings. The whole system is kind of sick if you ask me. But that is another post...

 

[moo]

The USMLE Step II will have a clinical component, starting with the Class of 2005. You will have to fly to test centers in select cities (thankfully Chicago is one of them), pay 1000 bucks + plane ticket + lodging, and complete this thing.

 

[drvlad2004]

Originally posted by bustbones26
I am beggining to regret going DO for a few reasons.

Let me ask you, most residency programs pay for their interns to take their step 3? Would you like to reimburse your MD's a few hundred dollars each to take the USMLE 3, or would you like to reimburse your DO's a few thousand to take the COMLEX3? It sounds stupid become a determining factor if you get offered a residency spot or not.

Actually, the NBME has also confirmed that they will incoporate the PE component into the USMLE, starting with the class of 2005.

The DO's must like to shoot themselves in the foot. They are popping up new schools all over the country, yet to not have enough residency programs for all of us. Now, they are demanding to every hospital have at least one DO residency program if they want to have an osteopathic internship program.

So how many hospitals out there to you think are going to go spend extra money on organizing a DO program just so they can keep DO interns at their hospital? If it were my hospital, hate to say it, I'd say forget it, just have ACGME programs and forget the frustatrting rules of the AOA.

I do not regret going DO, but I just htink if I had gone MD, some of the frustrations and nuisances of being a DO just would never be there. [/QUOTE]

I absolutely agree that it is troublesome that we are creating DO medical schools yet we have not progressed in increasing the quantity of DO residencies. Like many DO students, I do have some skepticism about what direction our profession as a whole is going. We all should and be remain active in doing so. As a whole, I am very proud of my profession and very proud to discuss how I can utilize my knowledge and skills of osteopathy into PM&R during my interviews .

Compared to the AMA, since the AOA is a much smaller organization it is easier to get our points across and change to happen much sooner. Often, we have the same complaints like MDs do. I have no regrets on my decision to become a DO.

 

[DOtobe]

Have not regretted it one bit.

 

[What the pho]

Originally posted by drvlad2004


I absolutely agree that it is troublesome that we are creating DO medical schools yet we have not progressed in increasing the quantity of DO residencies. Like many DO students, I do have some skepticism about what direction our profession as a whole is going.

The direction the AOA is going into is money and their bank accounts, can we say diploma mill. There is more money to be made in opening up more DO schools much like how more and more off shore med schools are popping up. Eventually it well be as easy to get a medical degree as it is to get a JD, hell you might be able to get a DO by going to night courses over the internet like some law degrees.

 

[daveyboy]

Originally posted by bustbones26
I am beggining to regret going DO for a few reasons.

First off, this COMLEX thing. 750 pencil and paper questions and it takes 8 weeks to get results. The USMLE's are important to the MD's but like burp compared to the COMLEX, computerized test and getting results faster. Also what is up with this new PE part of the COMLEX, think of how much $$ you are going to have to shell out to take the COMLEX now?

Let me ask you, most residency programs pay for their interns to take their step 3? Would you like to reimburse your MD's a few hundred dollars each to take the USMLE 3, or would you like to reimburse your DO's a few thousand to take the COMLEX3? It sounds stupid become a determining factor if you get offered a residency spot or not.

The DO's must like to shoot themselves in the foot. They are popping up new schools all over the country, yet to not have enough residency programs for all 0of us. Now, they are demanding to every hospital have at least one DO residency program if they want to have an osteopathic internship program.

So how many hospitals out there to you think are going to go spend extra money on organizing a DO program just so they can keep DO interns at their hospital? If it were my hospital, hate to say it, I'd say forget it, just have ACGME programs and for4get the frustatrting rules of the AOA.

I do not regret going DO, but I just htink if I had gone MD, some of the frustrations and nuisances of being a DO just would never be there.

I agree that opening new DO schools is a bad idea. There are already too many medical schools in this country. If we aren't careful we will end up like the lawyers, with a school on every corner letting any monkey who can sign their name come on in. I would hate for Osteopathic schools to be the blame for this. The AOA really needs to be a little(Well, ALOT) more conservative about giving out accreditation for new medical schools.

 

[awdc]

Originally posted by daveyboy
I agree that opening new DO schools is a bad idea. There are already too many medical schools in this country. If we aren't careful we will end up like the lawyers, with a school on every corner letting any monkey who can sign their name come on in. I would hate for Osteopathic schools to be the blame for this. The AOA really needs to be a little(Well, ALOT) more conservative about giving out accreditation for new medical schools.

Judging from the number of FMG's/IMG's needed to fill residency spots and the shortage of specialists, I don't think there are too many medical schools just yet.

 

[daveyboy]

You say that because you are counting on one of those spots. Every new DO and MD from the states taking a spot means one less FMG/IMG.

There has been a physician surplus since the 80's, don't kid yourself. Especially don't kid yourself with matters regarding your livelihood.
That being said, I wish the best for you guys in the Caribean. Anyone who would go through the crap you guys endure to become a doc deserves to do well. I say that with total sincerity. Best wishes!

 

[crazy250]

i agree we need more schools for our citizens. a lot of americans deserve a spot in med school, but can't get in because of a shortage in med schools. instead, we get these foreign med grads who probably got in very easily in their country's med schools because a lot countries don't respect doctors as highly as in the US. now that is not fair. so i support having more schools in order to block out the FMGs and give us americans more chance. i don't want to sound like a racist. i just want equality.

 

[bustbones26]

damn I wish I could sleep but oh well. People I don/t want to step on anybodies toes here, but having a gazillion unfilled family practice residecy programs every year is a nice way to pad the statistics. Do all DO's want to be FP?

Also, again, at risk of steppin on toes, at least where I am from, the osteopathic residency programs just plain suck! I mean the hospital that is affiliated with my school (which I will not name) is busy if they have 20 people in the hospital at one time (this is no joke), and they don't use computers at this place, they do everything by hand. Can you imagine calling up the lab for some values and they come to the ER and hand you a peice of paper with hand written values on it! (again, no joke) In order to become a well trained resident, people at this place have to do out rotations at larger insitutions.

I am not stomping all DO's programs there are some very good ones out there, but most I have seen and heard of from tohers don't fit the caliber of ACGME residencies.

 

[SawBones]

If I could do it all over, I would go for a PhD in History and be happy living a nice, quiet life at a small liberal arts university. I would be perfectly content with my $55,000 per year, a word processor, and a book deal.

Instead, I'm working 80+ hours per week, making $3.25 an hour, and sleeping is now my #1 hobby. And my $250,000 I owe in debt deters any career changes at this point.

 

[sophiejane]

Jobs in academia are pretty hard to come by, in fact. As are book deals.

🙂

The grass, as they say, is always greener....

 

[VentdependenT]

Originally posted by bustbones26

Also, again, at risk of steppin on toes, at least where I am from, the osteopathic residency programs just plain suck! I mean the hospital that is affiliated with my school (which I will not name) is busy if they have 20 people in the hospital at one time (this is no joke), and they don't use computers at this place, they do everything by hand.

I am not stomping all DO's programs there are some very good ones out there, but most I have seen and heard of from tohers don't fit the caliber of ACGME residencies.

Their choice to go there. No one is forcing them to do that sort of training. If the AOA wasn't such an isolated esoteric society and it cared more about its graduates then the competitive DO candidates wouldn't be flooding into ACGME accredited programs. There are some good DO residencies out there but I have chosen to go allopathic.

I'd say more of our class is going into internal medicine rather than FP (total 40-50% class going IM or FP). But we have people going to ortho, rads, urology, derm (DO), neurosurg (DO), ent (DO), anes, pm&r, gensurg, neuro, er, peds. Not even close to limiting ourselves to FP. 80-90% going ACGME/military match.

 

[wook]

In response to the original post of this thread...

Nope, I'm perfectly happy having gone DO school. It is still the right choice for me.

 

[sophiejane]

Originally posted by wook
In response to the original post of this thread...

Nope, I'm perfectly happy having gone DO school. It is still the right choice for me.

..and you have the COOLEST signature quote ever!

🙂

 

[Goofyone]

OP:

Well I did choose DO with some MD acceptances. Would I have gone MD if I did it again?

Probably.

The reason is $$$. I would have saved some big bucks had I gone MD. I was really excited to start DO school, but after being there for a year and a half, I see that it's really nothing special. <dodges some arrows from angry DO peers> Don't get me wrong, the education is just fine and because of that I'm sure I'll pass COMPLEX and USMILE without breakin' a sweat. I don't feel like I'm missing anything at all. I also like the people I go to school with and have made some great friends. But the fact is, it just doesn't live up to the hype--at least not enough to justify the discrepancy in tuition, the ****ty AOA residencies, and having to sit through OMM labs for two years. [By the way, I was VERY excited about learning OMM but after a year of it, it's more of a pain in the @$$ than anything.] <dodges more arrows> The tuition hurts more than anything. I don't feel like I can AFFORD to do primary care even though I'd like to, so I am almost dead-set on specializing now. Kinda defeats the purpose, eh? Other than that, the other things are very minor. As for the residencies.....I can't speak from experience but it doesn't sound like DOs are at a real disadvantage most of the time.

My advice: go to the cheapest school you can find that meets your geographic and personal requirements.

 

[DOindahouse]

oh hell yeah, that is if they took me, which they didnt last time, except the island schoool
whatever helps me goto ortho is waht i waant

 

[sophiejane]

Originally posted by Goofyone

My advice: go to the cheapest school you can find that meets your geographic and personal requirements.

A-M-E-N!

It is true that DO schools are "nothing special"....but they ARE different, as you pointed out. I think some are more different than others.

As for not being able to afford to do primary care...I am wondering how you came to this conclusion? Do you mean really afford, like keep the lights on and feed yourself sort of afford, or make your boat-BMW-beach condo payments sort of afford?

My experience is that **most** docs in primary care today are doing just fine financially. They just dont wear Prada and Gucci under their white coats...

By the way...we just had a lecture from a DO who does only OMM, accupuncture, sclerotherapy, and some herbs. You may chuckle, but not when you find out that most of his practice is cash-based, there are virtually no insurance hassles, he works 4 days a week, and has an unbelievably gorgeous house on a lake.

So...you might want to rethink what a pain in the a&* OMM is... 🙂

 

[jhug]

we met with some docs who do OMM three days a week and see patients (FP) the other two days a week...they are boat-BMW-beach condo payment wealthy!! if you can hit your nitch your set!

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

I can't speak for jhug, but at our school I've been sort of underwhelmed with OMT. There are a lot of reasons for it I guess, and maybe I went into DO school expecting more from OMM than was reasonable. I truly expected a full modality of diagnosis and treatment, and at this point I'm having some difficulty seeing any way that OMM would be a large part of my practice.

Of course, some of our classmates are planning on having an OMM-laden practice, and I'm sure they'll do well with it. It's just not my bag.

Interestingly enough, despite being disappointed with OMM, I've been really pleasantly surprised with every other aspect of the DO schoolI'm attending. While I may not be a "true osteopath" or represent "the profession well" to some, I don't really care. I went to DO school to be a doctor and treat a specific patient population, not cruise around with a huge DO chip on my shoulder.

 

[sophiejane]

In saying that some don't represnt the profession well I only meant that there are some bitter DOs out there who wish they'd been MDs and do eveything they can to not acknowledge that they aren't.

As for chips on shoulders, that's funny...I know a few who have those. The president of the AOA in particular. I was pretty horrified at some of the things he told us. I hope there will be more changes and fewer chips as more of us start to practice.

 

[drvlad2004]

Originally posted by sophiejane
As for chips on shoulders, that's funny...I know a few who have those. The president of the AOA in particular. I was pretty horrified at some of the things he told us. I hope there will be more changes and fewer chips as more of us start to practice.

I am curious to what the AOA president said that so was horrifying? Speaking of chips on the shoulder, I think that the AAO (American Academy of Osteopathy) definitely have that problem. Learning and utilizing OMM with medicine has been awesome. However, many of those people act like they are a cult and seem to go the opposite direction of the AOA.

 

[sophiejane]

He said things like if we join both the AMA (which I joined just for the journal, which is totally worth the $65 for four years) and the AOA that we were basically traitors, that AMSA (which is an excellent organization and truly represents medical students-they are largely responsible for legislating limits on the resident's work hours) would NEVER represent us as well as SOMA...all his comments were infused with these invisible dollar signs. A lot of the AOA paraphernalia has images of this building that they are so freaking proud of--he mentioned like 3 times the fact that the AOA OWNED this building in Chicago. I mean, really. What are we focusing on here? He just had this chip the size of Texas on his shoulder and it really left a lot of us feeling very underwhelmed. He also insinuated that if we do an ACGME residency we are "leaving" the profession. Ugh.

 

[drvlad2004]

SophieJane,

Thanks for the response. That comment is the biggest crock of s**t that I have heard. It is the AOA's fault for neither having enough residency positions nor various specialties to choose from. In NY, the only DO residencies that I see are FP, Peds, and hardly anything else, even in primary care. Come to think of it, there are very few osteopathic IM programs, anesthesiology, neurology, etc. In PM&R, there is only one residency program (MSUCOM), that is actually dual-accredited. It's kind of funny that DO represent themselves very well in this field, as well as other specialties, even though all have done ACGME programs. The emphasis on primary care is the AOA's philosophy (hint: dollar signs for government) and not AT Still's. According to AT Still's writings, he did mention that a field like surgery was a vital component to osteopathy. I guess that AOA prez old school beliefs has made him forget that the ACGME has opened the doors for us as DOs (quite some time ago) and we are colleagues of MDs also. Otherwise, our profession would be in trouble with unemployed DOs.

 

[Goofyone]

Originally posted by sophiejane
As for not being able to afford to do primary care...I am wondering how you came to this conclusion? Do you mean really afford, like keep the lights on and feed yourself sort of afford, or make your boat-BMW-beach condo payments sort of afford?

My experience is that **most** docs in primary care today are doing just fine financially. They just dont wear Prada and Gucci under their white coats...

By the way...we just had a lecture from a DO who does only OMM, accupuncture, sclerotherapy, and some herbs. You may chuckle, but not when you find out that most of his practice is cash-based, there are virtually no insurance hassles, he works 4 days a week, and has an unbelievably gorgeous house on a lake.

So...you might want to rethink what a pain in the a&* OMM is... 🙂

Sorry, but I'm a Prada-wearin', BMW-drivin', house-on-the-lake-havin' kind of guy.

But seriously, I'm on track to be close to .2 million dollars in debt when I get out of school. I don't want to have loans until I'm 50+.
No, I probably wouldn't be struggling to pay the gas bill, but I wouldn't be able to live the way I'd like to. I have to admit I'm sort of a high-maintenance guy (if there is such a thing).

Anyway, I think OMM is a pain in the a$$ mostly because of the way the class is structured and scheduled at my school, and the fact that am not convinced of its efficacy in many instances and probably will rarely use it in practice. Has nothing to do with $$.

BTW, I can't believe Beehler said that stuff! I've heard him talk before and he seemed pretty OK. Man, DOs wouldn't have half the problems we did if it weren't for the AOA trying to screw us over all the time.

Can I get a for an AOA Mutiny? Anyone?

 

[drvlad2004]

Originally posted by Goofyone
Can I get a for an AOA Mutiny? Anyone?

I think that the profession, as a whole, has already done that. Look at how many DO students apply for ACGME residencies every year. If I had to guess, it is probably 90% that apply allopathic. Some of us, like me, really do not have much choice if you want to specialize. I have enjoyed going to the AOA conventions the past couple of years. I got a good sense what direction that the AOA wants to go. However, Dr. Beehler must have been out of his mind with his comments. He sounds as if he is trying to take the AOA a step back with his old-school opinions. I remember that the past 2 AOA presidents were trying to get more DOs to come back to the AOA, even if they did allopathic residencies.

What sophiejane has mentioned deserves its own thread on this forum. It would be interesting as to what other DOs think.

 

[governator]

would i have gone MD? hmmm, i don't know, maybe, maybe not, going DO is the only way for me to move to cali.

I went from a highly excited 1st yr student to a disgruntled 3rd yr student.... DO exists separately from MD just because it is a profitable business (the schools) and the students...... we're nothing but dollar signs. Hopefully it's just me, maybe students at other schools have a different experience.

 

[Homunculus]

hell no. i love my school, and would come here again in a heartbeat. and yes, i chose it over an MD school.

 

[sophiejane]

BTW, Beelher is on his way out. The next president starts in the spring. We shall see.

I think the most productive thing we can do is to get involved with the AOA and let them know that we want to see things go in a more unified direction--not just DOs with DOs as the AOA "Unity" campaign is pushing, but also DOs with MDs. I do think that our individuality as a profession is being compromised (with the exception of OMM) but isn't that a good thing in a way? When osteopathy was started, it was dones so partially in response to a lot of narrow-minded thinking in the allopathic world which wasn't serving patients well. A lot of that has dissipated in the past century. Patients have demanded docs be more "DO" in their approach...there is more emphasis on the interview, on bedside manner, on the "whole-patient" approach throughout medicine. This is good news for the patient, and that is what it's all about.

I was accepted at a DO school, which was my first choice. I knew I wanted to stay in state because of the cheap tuition and good schools in Texas, and TCOM is the school that impressed me the most and where I felt I belonged. All else in the details. I want to be a good doctor and serve my patients well, and that is my focus.