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No
2 million dollars?! Ha, I'd still have to practice something. 2 million dollars doesn't buy you much... this is 2016, not 1816.
If you could do it all over, would you do medicine again?
- Thread starter Zyra
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It's not much in places like California or New York, but you can easily invest 2 million and have it make 50k for you while you live in cheap flyover. I'd probably just buy a cheap house in flyover for 200,000, then invest the rest and have it make 50k-60k dividends a year for me while I do contract work as an artist. I'd have lots more free time and unlimited time to do stuff that I really want to do (which doesn't involve any professional job or structured work life). Because after all, time is by far the most valuable thing of all. And since you won't have a mortgage or any debt, that 50-60k a year would go far in low COL flyover.
Most doctors will probably never accrue 2 million net worth in their lifetime (and definitely not liquid)...so yeah, it's a lot of money in the grand scheme of things.
I guess I might be different in that I don't need or want to buy lots of stuff. The things I enjoy (art/music/video games/outdoors/pets) are generally free or cheap. I think that the "best things in life are free" - there are a lot of free to play MOBAs online, for example.
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Many doctors won't because they have expenses and responsibilities, but most doctors are in the top 1 to 2% of earners. If your only expense is video games and itunes, sure 2 million dollars is a lot. If you have to feed a family of 5, pay a mortgage, save for tuition,pay off loans, cars, pay for their video game and itunes... the list goes on and on, well 2 million dollars ain't that much. In fact, it's about 7 years worth of work in my dual-income household. Add a couple of zeros to that 2, then maybe...
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Really? I kinda doubt this, but maybe a lot of docs like to play hard, meaning vacations and fancy cars, but still if you are a specialist with a professional working spouse it shouldn't be that hard. I'm a resident and my wife is a PA and we graduated school in 2012. We already have 400K net worth (house and cash) 100K liquid. And i am relatively aggressively paying my loans and take 1 to 2 big vacations a year. We are saving appromately 60 K a year right now with houshold income about to just about triple in less than 2 years. I think a net worth 2 million will be done in 10 to 15 years. Liquid 2 million definitely by retirement.
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I just found a fast and free way to pay off your loans and never worry about money if you have an MD! Don't have kids. According to this article, raising one kid to the age of 18 in a high income family costs ~400k. Wow! And that is just one. We all know that cutting your kid off at 18 doesn't happen, so its really a lot more than that and gets crazy high if you consider paying for college.
Im not saying people who have kids are stupid or anything, and I know not having kids is not for everyone. All I wanted to say is that if anyone has ever thought about not having kids or is on the fence they should dig into how much money you would save. For me there are a lot of other reasons not to (for another thread), but I thought I'd mention this aspect in light of the conversation about income, money, and what it takes to be "rich".
Sometimes when I look at my loans and panic, it is a really comforting thought to remember that I've basically erased that debt and then some by choosing to not having kids. It also makes me feel more free to choose a low paying specialty, a high COL area, or to work much less.
http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2016/06/22/how-much-does-it-cost-to-raise-a-child/
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Did you not have loans? How did you pay off loans to accrue that net work while you are still a resident?
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Graduated with 225k debt. 200k government and 25 k institutional loans. Institutional loans are sweet since no interest while in training and I don't have to worry about paying that off until I'm an attending. The 200k government became 217k due to Ibr so I took a family personal loan against a mortgage at a 4% rate instead of 6.75% that the government gave me and started hitting it hard. I use most of my moonlighting cash to throw at tue loan. Done to 170k now.
Lived in a cheap place as an intern while wife made 6 figure skilla right out of school. By mid pgy2 we had like 60 K saved up. Put down 20% for a 250k house while the market was still low (but was not rock bottom, but rates were good and prices were still much lower than today). House now worth 300k and saved up 100 k cash. Made sure the house mortgage was low enough that if only I was working (since we have a child now) I could make payments. Basically our mortgage is a little less than what people pay in rent , plus we get the tax deduction. So basically I've been lucky that my wife choose a relatively good paying profession that allows for early income earning and fairly flexible schedule for family planning... luck..... and I am at a program which I can moonlight hard. As a resident pgy3 and beyond making 70k to 100K is possible at my program with the average more PGY 4 and 5 making like 90 k a year.
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I see. I agree that you had a lot of things fall into place for you. Ability to moonlight, ability to take out a low interest rate family loan, spouse making 6 figures, etc. Glad its working out for you, but definitely not the norm.
Does your net worth take into account your debt? So you have 600k in house and cash? Or do you mean you have 400k house and cash plus 170k debt...if that, your NET worth is not 400k. It's more like 200k.
I'm not sure I understand this math. Do you make 1 million pre taxes? Because first you subtract out taxes, then you subtract out expenses, at that point I don't see how you could accrue 2 million liquid savings after 7 years....anyway, I don't know where I read this, but I think boomer doctors ended up accruing a NET worth of around 2 million by age 60 or so...but they were also paid more and had fewer loans. Given declining salaries and increased loans, I doubt most doctors will accrue 2 million net worth by retirement (especially given that part of that is probably due to their real estate investments where house values went up a ton - like in California and NYC).
Buying a house is usually a bad investment outside of certain areas (which are already high COL), at least compared to investing in the stock market. There's a study about that, which I can pull later. The cost of maintaining a house (and also relatively little appreciation outside of certain markets when taking into account inflation, etc.) means that you don't actually make as much as you would just investing it in an index fund. What's useful about buying a house is having deductions on your taxes if you have a mortgage - but I wouldn't buy a house in flyover as an "investment." Buying in CA/NYC years ago was a good investment though and also prevents the market from pricing you out if you're paying rents. Historically, if your alternative is buying in flyover, you'd make more money just putting your money into the stock market.
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I've never been sure that I wanted kids, but I am also disinclined to have kids, at least in the USA. I think the USA is on a downward trajectory that won't stop any time soon - rising COL, rising education and healthcare costs at an exponential rate, declining salaries, automatization and outsourcing of jobs, yet continuous population growth that exacerbates the previous. So unless I emigrate to China or where ever that will likely have a QOL boom (rather than decline) in the near future, I'm likely not having kids.
Just as an example, my boomer parents bought a house (now worth something like 1.5 million in a high COL area) for only 200k in the 1980s. They worked standard tech jobs working 9 to 5 straight out of undergrad and one out of grad school. Their education cost was something like 5k total for everything....it was extremely easy to find a job, nobody was on call, and their QOL was high. Meanwhile salaries have remained stagnant, or decreased relative to inflation, while COL, education and healthcare costs have skyrocketed. I don't see how it's going to stop any time soon - the best solution if you want your kids to have a chance is probably to emigrate.
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Zyra. You are right about the debt. But at the rates I'm seeing my colleagues who just finished training are getting, my loans will be wiped out in 3 to 5 years easily while having still a lot more left over. Will probably keep the house long term and have someone else pay off the mortgage (ie. Rental) while continuing to invest in residential and commercial real estate. Land is where you make your money, it is real.
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While I am having kids, already have one. I definitely agree with you about the trajectory of the USA. Sad. I've thought about emigrating. Reverse brain drain will happen in our life times.
It wouldnt be about the money for me but I would like to imagine myself taking a completely different trajectory in life and see where it gets me. I'm sure life could be very different. Whether its for the better or worse it is impossible to say. Right now, medicine has become such an integral part of life and a huge part of the knowledge I have accrued its hard to see what I would be better at in life if I was to do something else.
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deleted746658
1) the money is a nice perk, so it's part of the reason for sure
2) with 2 million inheritance, hell no
Without the 2 million inheritance, would I do it again? I really want to say no, but I can't. I probably would do it again. I think about my non-med friends and the **** they do day-to-day and the BS they have to put up with. Sure, their lives will probably be a lot easier and less stressful, but not necessarily "better."
If I didn't go into med, I would 100% go into med device sales. I have friends in that industry and they will far out earn the vast majority of MDs.
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2) with 2 million inheritance, hell no
Without the 2 million inheritance, would I do it again? I really want to say no, but I can't. I probably would do it again. I think about my non-med friends and the **** they do day-to-day and the BS they have to put up with. Sure, their lives will probably be a lot easier and less stressful, but not necessarily "better."
If I didn't go into med, I would 100% go into med device sales. I have friends in that industry and they will far out earn the vast majority of MDs.
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deleted746658
Also, life is about more than money. I know it's trite, but it's true. We'll make a difference. We interact with all people from all SES, age, ethnicity, etc to try our best to help them. That's pretty cool.
If my friends' jobs didn't exist, nobody would notice save for the person/ corporation they were making money for.
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If my friends' jobs didn't exist, nobody would notice save for the person/ corporation they were making money for.
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Are you saying this because "it's what everyone says" or have you actually done research into it? Real estate definitely is not a sure thing which is evident by how slowly the housing market is taking to come back. Could someone make a boat load of money off of real estate? Sure, I know people that bought large rental units in the late 80s and made a killing as the housing bubble was growing. Those same people also lost a lot of money in 08 when things went south. I really doubt we will see housing prices rise like they did in the 90s, primarily because there are now measures in place to make sure that that type of bubble doesn't come back. I think you'd be better off putting that money in a diverse portfolio of stocks as long as you don't need the money for 20+ years.
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GooD to diversify. But over the long term your best yields can be real estate. Look at housing prices relative to inflation over the past 100 years. You will not lose money in the long term.
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Just out of curiosity, what countries would you recommend emigrating to? Also are there a lot of hoops to practicing as a foreign physician coming from the U.S. in those countries?
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According to this graph, and every other graph I came across after googling for 2 mins, that is not true.
http://fm.cnbc.com/applications/cnbc.com/resources/files/2014/12/08/dianachart.png
Yeah, I think the real test will be whether they stay and practice for awhile in the field after they finish school/residency....working life sucks compared to at least the school part in many fields, IMO. My cousin practiced for a few years but now is a SAHM....I don't think she liked EM that much (which apparently is common).
I have always wanted to live in NZ/Australia. Obviously, Asia is up and coming and China will probably improve (although it is still very corrupt and it's all about who you know in the Communist Party).
I don't know about the hoops for foreign practitioners - keep in mind that US doctors tend to make more money (at least for now...) than foreign doctors do in their own countries. In Europe, doctors generally make a fraction of what US doctors make and also only get an undergrad degree in medicine and don't accrue much student loan debt. But apparently the quality of life in the Scandinavian countries is high (and their tax dollars actually give them legit benefits - like real socialized healthcare that's "free" and free college educations) so maybe the lower salaries are offset by all of the other benefits. And they probably work fewer hours.
I also read an article recently that the US has surpassed Japan (a historically workaholic nation) in average number of working hours - apparently the US is becoming more and more of a workaholic nation across many industries.......that's not a good sign considering all of the other QOL factors that are declining.
I think this really depends on the market - in most markets in the USA, that's probably not true. If you're talking about the Bay Area or Manhattan, then sure, housing prices have skyrocketed as compared to inflation. But we're already behind the boat on investing in those markets - Chinese all cash buyers have pretty much bought every apartment and house in those areas that weren't purchased by our boomer parents.
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That's interesting because it appears that people who have the least income also tend to have the most kids - http://www.statista.com/statistics/241530/birth-rate-by-family-income-in-the-us/
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Have rotated through obgyn, can confirm
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What are you, like one months into MS1? Come back to answer this question after at least a year or two of residency, or better yet after practicing for a couple of years as an attending.
Seriously guys, medical students answering this question is ridiculous. Strictly speaking, none of us have been "practicing medicine" yet - all we've been doing so far is medical school. (But the fresh MS1 still takes the price for answering the question)
I respect your dedication, but I seriously doubt anybody would subject themselves to 10+ years of training just to live in poverty forever.
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No, I'm not in it for the money.
Yes, I would do something else if I had two million (post-tax) dollars, as that's pretty close to my ultimate retirement goal and would allow me to live a comfy life in the developing world indefinitely. I'd probably open up a beach bar or hostel somewhere and call it a day.
No, I don't regret doing it, because it's the most meaningful thing I can do with my time given that I don't have enough money to pack up my life and call it quits.
Yes, I would do something else if I had two million (post-tax) dollars, as that's pretty close to my ultimate retirement goal and would allow me to live a comfy life in the developing world indefinitely. I'd probably open up a beach bar or hostel somewhere and call it a day.
No, I don't regret doing it, because it's the most meaningful thing I can do with my time given that I don't have enough money to pack up my life and call it quits.
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This has got to be sarcasm.
But if not, I'll hire you for $10 a year after you graduate.
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Several of my med school classmates echoed this sentiment in first year, even going as far as to call those of us who even dared considered salary bad people. Now the same people have gone into residency in the highest paying fields they could get themselves into.
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The "kids" who had those kind of thoughts always came off to me as people who've just never lived in the real world (which many hadn't). Wanting to be compensated is not bad, though wanting to be a balling millionaire as a physician is just short sighted/foolish.
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Interestingly in my case, the guy who did it the most had actually held multiple jobs prior to med school, mostly in the finance realm. He called himself a "recovering ibanker".
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Now that's weird coming from a finance guy but the sample size that I've dealt w/ was pretty small so you never know.
Yes because for the most part I like the job and the money allows for flexibility that isn't often in other jobs. Inheritance wouldn't have changed anything except that I am not looking more to trying to develop investments that allow an eventual reduction in work hours and retirement.
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that is disgusting... personally I don't see why doctors should be paid money at all, our jobs (or should I say, callings) are more important than mere green paper. no, the satisfied smiles on my (future) patients faces after I treat them will be payment enough for me
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Unfortunately smiles don't pay the bills.....at least not in any of the places that I've lived.
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Do you even sarcasm
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Med school admissions selects for either really genuine people with true motive or sociopaths who are excellent at lying. Unfortunately, the latter group finds their way into med school classes at a disturbing rate.
I've been thinking of moving somewhere beachy and warm, maybe new Zealand or thailand. The US is becoming a worse place to live by the minute.
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Really depends on if you've lived in some pretty ****** places in your life. I would definitely consider some other countries but the US is much safer than the war-torn country I originally came from.
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Not saying money is everything... but for the time investment... I PROBABLY would have gone the CRNA route. 40 hour workweeks and making $250,000?
No liability? No call?
Lol **** med school fam. It's all bout that SKRILLA. Too late now but I'm coolin'. No complaints on dis side.
No liability? No call?
Lol **** med school fam. It's all bout that SKRILLA. Too late now but I'm coolin'. No complaints on dis side.
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LMAO. sttttffffuuuuuuuuuu lololol roflcopterzzzzzz uwotm8!!!
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Yeah and like many other nurses they're constantly pushing for more and won't stfu about how much doctors suck
High pay? No liability? Predictable hours? Sign me up
I really don't see what there is to complain about
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Lol smiling faces lolollolololololololololol
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I do. At the end of a long, 8 hour day of gossip, complaining, torturing medical students and kissing ass of the better looking young residents and attendings, you still have to look in the mirror and call yourself a nurse.
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Lol fake it til you make it. You can still cry and blow your nose in your mounds of hunnid dollar bills fam while the residents are up to their eyeballs in debt ($250K PLUS) and the fact that attendings start making a killing after 7-8 years of med school and residency combined.
Cry me a river lol
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Too late for both us Psai. Well more for you cause you are in residency which is still a good thing though. Not really worth the jump at this point. I can still jump ship but I wouldn't personally be able to look at myself in the mirror after busting my ass to even get into med school in the first place.
It is what it is. You'll still make a killing and be a great doc man. No doubts about it.
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No, I would not do it again. I wouldn't even think twice about it.
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Any reasons? What specialty are you in?
