If you could do it over would you

[CambieMD]

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I also agree with ELCapeeeTAN,

medicine is a hard business to be in. The practice of medicine is very complicated. You want to help your patients but at the same time you have to protect yourself from them. Just wait until you are threatened with a lawsuit. Physicians go through a lot painful process as they prepare to practice their trade.

I graduated from med school almost ten years ago. I have had my ups and downs. I can tell you this however, there is nothing like helping a patient feel better. I have worked in various settings.

MBA types may make a lot of money but at the end of the day they may not always be sure that they helped their clients.

Earlier I said that medicine is complex. It is also complex becuse making a living at it can be challenging. With new docs coming out of med school with debts in excess of 200k the compensation must reach a certain level. This statement doesn't make me greedy it is the truth.

If you are interested in going to med school, do it. Everything out there that is worthwhile is difficult.

CambieMD

 

[Justin4563]

This is a great thread because if we had the internet when i was applying to med school 1995 and read this thread I would have at least saw what i was getting myself into. Ive been an attending for a year. I saw the handwriting on the wall My first few months of medical school. Your teachers try to beat you down. It is not supportive at all. You are only as good as your last test score. NOthing else matters. the studying is unbelievable long and ardurous and lonely. And I think they make medical school particularly hard for no reason at all. they make back to back exams.. They lecture up until the exam. Even the most optimistic person in the world will become a cynic. I think it boils down to money. 3rd year medical school sucks. The passive agression there is very thick by everyone. ITs an exercise in feighned interest and being fake. 4th year medical school is a bit better but its useless.. Yous hould go into internship right after third year but how would medical schools make 20000 dollars times 100 or so people. Internship blows because everyone thinks they can boss you around and scut you to death and the hours are ungodly. Residency is a bit better because you are finally doing what you are interested in after 5 years of jumping through hoops; step 1, step2, step3 and now the step 2cs. thank god i wasnt around for that. Sounds like another money making scheme. BUt residency they still make things difficult for you They pay you less then the radiology tech. That just shows you how much they respect you. They then give you intraining exams every year and tell you you have to do well otherwise they will kick you out of residency but they work you to death so you dont have time to study. Then they are blood borne diseases you can catch. Then there are board certification. WHich if you are lucky like me you have a written and an oral. I passed the written going to sit for the orals in a few months. ANd the board is not even on your side. They are out to screw you. You would think that after going through what you went through they wouldnt pull any punches. But its deceiving and tricky as possible.. Now that you are an attending you are at the top.. think again.. all that for 130,000 dollars a year.. So you still wanna go to medschool? go ahead and keep a diary so when your kids want to go just hand them the diary.

Kids. Please stay away from a career in medicine..

 

[mellomd]

wow...this is really interesting/depressing. Here i am currently applying to med school, after taking 2 years off college (will be three by the time i start) and taking the time to really be sure that this is what i want. I even worked as a Manager in a financial insitution. The sad truth is I'm sure i can do other things, like some other poster said, med student are smart enough to suceed in the real world and do anything they want...and i'm also sure the medicine will be trememdously hard with many sacrifices, judging from all your posts and my experience in healthcare doign clinical research...so wht do you do? i say, go in with your eyez open..cause i can tell you i couldnt imagine spending my time making $$ for a bank, cutting deals, rolling over loans, working long hours for the rest of my life..i just couldn't..the way i see it all jobs have crap and bs to deal with, but its important that you know your own bottom line..what keeps you going..what satisfies you.
That said..where are those docs who enjoy thier life...who strove to make the best of the medical profession, who try to have a life? maybe we can hear from those for a bit of encouragement. I mean, isnt one of the greatest things about a doc that you can be semi-autonomous? eventually being able to decide how/when u work?or am i being naive? how does the real life work situation pan out after residency?

 

[Amxcvbcv]

Did you tell that to the admissions committees too? 😉

Seriously I think you're right and there's nothing wrong with it. We all want to help people but a career in medicine comes with many additional benefits that other service professions can't touch...

I didn't put it so bluntly, no, but yeah, that's essentially what I told them.

As far as talking to the admission's committee you should just be honest with them and avoid the facade. If there's one thing I did pick up being a reapplicant it's that saying you want to be a doctor isn't the same thing as actually wanting to be a doctor. It's subtle, but profound.

 

[Learfan]

Wow, that's too bad you're so bummed out. Maybe you should try teaching? Is the job market that different in physical sciences than it is in engineering? Almost every university out there is hiring engineering faculty (unlike chem and physics profs), year after year. What field are you in, if i may ask?

I recieved my PhD in chemistry and consider my calling to be organic synthesis. Unfortunately, I did not work for a specific professor who was well known for this area and consequently did not get a job in the industry of my choice which was pharmaceuticals. I currently work in a research setting on the petroleum side of a company that is about 90% oil and 10% bulk petrochemicals after spending most of my career on the chemical side. In addition, I spent about five years in the business center on the chemical side of the house. During the process, I acquired an MBA.

My poor attitude toward industrial research can only be exceeded by my worse attitude toward business. Please be assured that most business work outside the realm of actual production consists of endless library research on ideas that yield absolutely nothing in the way of new programs or products. I wrote report after report and was widely praised for my marketing research. So..........................................What are we going to do with all of these facts and figures?........................................Answer: Nothing!!!
We will file them and just go on producing the same stuff we have produced since the late 1980s. Net result of work: Zero.

Under the sponsorship of the business center, I traveled the world in search of new business ideas that would add service to our products until there was a change of managers and I had to get out of there fast since a particularly malignant personality whom everyone in the office knew was a major problem had taken a dislike to me and was able to get me fired. I found a new post on the oil side, told off my old boss and left. My contempt for most business efforts outside of the area of entrepreneurship was cemented by that experience. I really respect those few people who can start a new venture. Most existing businesses, however, are way overstaffed with often very highly paid cookie pushers without a useful idea in their heads except for how they can suck up to their boss and ass kiss for their next promotion. As I said before, a doctor who can solve a real world problem often does more in fifteen minutes than most industrial PhDs accomplish in a year. In addition, they accomplish more than most business types will accomplish in an entire career.

 

[doc05]

That said..where are those docs who enjoy thier life...who strove to make the best of the medical profession, who try to have a life? maybe we can hear from those for a bit of encouragement. I mean, isnt one of the greatest things about a doc that you can be semi-autonomous? eventually being able to decide how/when u work?or am i being naive? how does the real life work situation pan out after residency?

Docs who enjoy their lives are the older ones who've been lucky enough to practice in the 1970s and 1980s. They made enough money and actually enjoyed the practice of medicine.

Nowadays, and surely moreso in the future, being truly autonomous is not the case for a practicing physician. You will always have administrators and insurance companies dictating your level of care. Not to mention the constant threat of lawsuits. Not to mention being subject to the whims of the brainless politicians who determine Medicare reimbursement rates.

 

[Justin4563]

I didnt say i didnt like the actual work.. I did not say I didnt think I accomplished anything.. I accomplish a lot everyday I help people every day however its all the bs that makes me regret sacrificing everything to achieve.. ANd the days of doctors being autonomous is OVER>> Doctors work for the man ................period.....

 

[LADoc00]

I went into medicine to make money, I never deceived myself. For your average mid to lower income bright motivated kid there still arent many options to break into the upper middle to upper classes. Things like Management Consulting, IBanking, Law, Finance etc. all take connections which if your parents are lowly civil servants or just average hardworking Americans you dont have. Sure there are some poor kids who become a Warren Buffet or a Gates, but barring becoming a Military officer (my other option), Med was the road out of my crap hometown. Would I do it again? Sure, because honestly what the hell else would I do.

 

[golgi]

I am in my last month of medschool right now. It's weird because the past few days a very strange feeling has been brewing within me - not excitement but surprise - sadness.

Maybe in hindsight everything is AOK - but I look back very fondly upon my medical education. During the preclinical years I remember stressing out like everyone else about tests and crap but the thought of P=MD always helped me get through the rough times! I remember the first day in anatomy lab, all the friends I made, the drunk nights after exams, and how I dealt with the conniving b*%$ who I was stuck with throughout my 3rd year clinicals !

It really isn't bad - in fact I would say it was the best time in my life. College was fun but there were too many question marks for the future (will I get into med school, etc..) plus orgo and all the other BS classes we had to take made life sheer hell.

IMHO, I can't think of a better field to go into. RELATIVE autonomy/job security (this is big! Nothing sucks more than not knowing how long your job will last and having some idiot manager above you determine how much money you should make). Plus, you have the opportunity to have a meaningful impact on someone's life. In medicine, there is something for everyone- from derm to peds to trauma surgery. Just pick your niche and sure maybe you won't make millions but atleast you can live knowing that you will never lose your job and can live quite comfortably....Would I do it again --- in a heartbeat!

 

[PublicHealth]

This is a great thread because if we had the internet when i was applying to med school 1995 and read this thread I would have at least saw what i was getting myself into. Ive been an attending for a year. I saw the handwriting on the wall My first few months of medical school. Your teachers try to beat you down. It is not supportive at all. You are only as good as your last test score. NOthing else matters. the studying is unbelievable long and ardurous and lonely. And I think they make medical school particularly hard for no reason at all. they make back to back exams.. They lecture up until the exam. Even the most optimistic person in the world will become a cynic. I think it boils down to money. 3rd year medical school sucks. The passive agression there is very thick by everyone. ITs an exercise in feighned interest and being fake. 4th year medical school is a bit better but its useless.. Yous hould go into internship right after third year but how would medical schools make 20000 dollars times 100 or so people. Internship blows because everyone thinks they can boss you around and scut you to death and the hours are ungodly. Residency is a bit better because you are finally doing what you are interested in after 5 years of jumping through hoops; step 1, step2, step3 and now the step 2cs. thank god i wasnt around for that. Sounds like another money making scheme. BUt residency they still make things difficult for you They pay you less then the radiology tech. That just shows you how much they respect you. They then give you intraining exams every year and tell you you have to do well otherwise they will kick you out of residency but they work you to death so you dont have time to study. Then they are blood borne diseases you can catch. Then there are board certification. WHich if you are lucky like me you have a written and an oral. I passed the written going to sit for the orals in a few months. ANd the board is not even on your side. They are out to screw you. You would think that after going through what you went through they wouldnt pull any punches. But its deceiving and tricky as possible.. Now that you are an attending you are at the top.. think again.. all that for 130,000 dollars a year.. So you still wanna go to medschool? go ahead and keep a diary so when your kids want to go just hand them the diary.

Kids. Please stay away from a career in medicine..

So why are you still doing it?

Are you an anesthesiology attending? If so, I find it hard to believe that you're making a mere $130K/year.

 

[LADoc00]

So why are you still doing it?

Are you an anesthesiology attending? If so, I find it hard to believe that you're making a mere $130K/year.

Dude, its called ACADEMICS. Im in path making less than that, thankfully its only one year.

 

[CambieMD]

I didnt say i didnt like the actual work.. I did not say I didnt think I accomplished anything.. I accomplish a lot everyday I help people every day however its all the bs that makes me regret sacrificing everything to achieve.. ANd the days of doctors being autonomous is OVER>> Doctors work for the man ................period.....

Everyone works for the man.

CambieMD

 

[DrKnowItAll]

Lis,

I feel very bad that you couldn't find anything more creative to so with your life. Being a foreign grad doctor in the US will make things 100 times more miserable for you, both in terms of residency options and job offers in the future.

Anyway, wanting to be a clinician dose not mean that you necessarily like people. Many IM docs, for example, are doing what they're doing because they don't know a way out. I can honestly say that I've never met a happy clinician. I'm sure they are out there, I've just never seen one.

The truth of the matter is that, being a doctor in the US is just not worth it anymore because there are so many better opportunities out there. I'm now at a "top 10" IM program. I kick myself everyday for not having chosen radiology or Derm. I definately had the crudentials but my idealism lasted longer than most of my other friends.

I love people. I just hate patients. And I hate the system for taking advantage of us.

As soon as I'm done with residency, I'm getting out. I already have a brilliant money making scheme in the works that will take advantage of my dregrees. I have a friend from the same program who has joined me on the venture. When I told him about the idea, his eyes lit up. He is probably the best intern in our program and had plans to do cardiology. Now he is thanking me for having saved his life.

Maybe after I meet a happy clinician I won't be so cynical about the profession. I'll keep looking.

 

[leechy]

Wow, it's been informative (and alarming) to read all these posts about people's experiences. Not to overgeneralize from my naive pre-MSI perspective, but it seems that the dissatisfaction mostly results from a combination of burnout (understandable), debt (understandable), and high expectations. Still, I've given a lot of thought to alternative professions (law, consulting/i-banking, schoolteaching, academia, the arts) and it still seems like medicine is one of the better professions out there, based on a number of pragmatic criteria. My main reason for doing it is intellectual interest (don't know how long that'll last when I'm studying the subject 10 hrs/day), but I still think that pragmatically speaking, choosing medicine is not a ridiculous or unreasonable decision.

Unlike academia or the arts, you don't have to struggle to get a job, and unlike law or consulting or i-banking, there isn't this "up or out" corporate structure (not to mention the hours in those professions are about the same as medicine, and your geographic positioning is more restricted). Of course, ask me about this again in a few years, and maybe being a postdoc with no job prospects or a corporate lawyer proofreading legal documents 100 hrs/week might sound more appealing. Honestly, it sounds like things are so bad in medicine that I might find myself dearly wishing I had pursued these other options. I'm curious to see if this happens. Maybe it will.

Someone earlier mentioned that no medical doctors / students she knew of would say medicine was their "dream" career. But I'm sure almost no lawyers, consultants, cogs in the corporate machines, or teachers would say they're in their dream career. My dream career would be screenwriting (only if I were a successful Charlie Kaufman type - otherwise life would be pretty rough). Now, is this realistic? Nope. Within the realm of realism, it still seems that while medicine can suck, it's not a stupid choice to be making. At least, this is my current attitude. I'm going to re-read my post in a few years and see what I think of it. 🙂

I'm wondering what other professions most of you wish you had pursued instead of medicine?

 

[Amxcvbcv]

Wow, it's been informative (and alarming) to read all these posts about people's experiences. Not to overgeneralize from my naive pre-MSI perspective, but it seems that the dissatisfaction mostly results from a combination of burnout (understandable), debt (understandable), and high expectations. Still, I've given a lot of thought to alternative professions (law, consulting/i-banking, schoolteaching, academia, the arts) and it still seems like medicine is one of the better professions out there, based on a number of pragmatic criteria. My main reason for doing it is intellectual interest (don't know how long that'll last when I'm studying the subject 10 hrs/day), but I still think that pragmatically speaking, choosing medicine is not a ridiculous or unreasonable decision.

Unlike academia or the arts, you don't have to struggle to get a job, and unlike law or consulting or i-banking, there isn't this "up or out" corporate structure (not to mention the hours in those professions are about the same as medicine, and your geographic positioning is more restricted). Of course, ask me about this again in a few years, and maybe being a postdoc with no job prospects or a corporate lawyer proofreading legal documents 100 hrs/week might sound more appealing. Honestly, it sounds like things are so bad in medicine that I might find myself dearly wishing I had pursued these other options. I'm curious to see if this happens. Maybe it will.

Someone earlier mentioned that no medical doctors / students she knew of would say medicine was their "dream" career. But I'm sure almost no lawyers, consultants, cogs in the corporate machines, or teachers would say they're in their dream career. My dream career would be screenwriting (only if I were a successful Charlie Kaufman type - otherwise life would be pretty rough). Now, is this realistic? Nope. Within the realm of realism, it still seems that while medicine can suck, it's not a stupid choice to be making. At least, this is my current attitude. I'm going to re-read my post in a few years and see what I think of it. 🙂

I'm wondering what other professions most of you wish you had pursued instead of medicine?

If my physical circumstances were different, I would pursue a career as a corporate/professional pilot. No question.

As it is now, though, flying is just going to be a hobby I enjoy with the money I earn. 🙂

 

[banner]

No. I would not do it again. I would not give up my college and medical school years again to waste away studying and accumulate debt. Those were crappy years and most of that was because I was pursuing a career in medicine. All so I could "help people." Boy does that sound really stupid, looking back.

That being said, now that it's all done, I wouldn't quit. It's alright being a Doc (I doing my radiology residency), but it certainly isn't the nirvana that would be required to justify the debt, struggle, and the hazing. I don't love what I do, but I think I like it enough to live a satisfying life overall.

Could I have found that lukewarm satisfaction elsewhere and at a much lower cost? Probably.

I must say that there is a temptation to quit today and do something else. But I know that stems from resentment accrued (with loanshark level interest) in college, med school and in internship not my current conditions today. I think I'll by paying off that psychological debt for a long time. I know one 50 year old IM attending who says he still has scars from his internship; you can tell by the pain in his eyes that he's not just trying to be nostalgic or cute.

 

[humuhumu]

I know one 50 year old IM attending who says he still has scars from his internship; you can tell by the pain in his eyes that he's not just trying to be nostalgic or cute.

Of course, that was back in the day when there was no limit on work hours. Still, residency scares me much more than medical school. Seems like it's hard to overstate the importance of selecting (and getting into) the right residency program....

 

[DrKnowItAll]

Leechy,

The good thing about the medical profession is that it does not require creativity, wisdom, or intellect. As long as you are a hard worker and willing to take a lot of crap you'll finish med school, residency, and get a job somewhere with a relatively good pay but unless you are in hard-core academics, medicine soon becomes as routine as following flowsharts and algorithms.

All the careers you mentioned require talent, tact, creativity, and, a sharp sense for societal norms, values, and nuances. If you don't fit the description and want an easy way out of being ordinary, then by all means, pursue a career in medicine.

Good luck.

 

[redstorm]

coming from a guy who hasnt even started residency yet. yeah i will take his advice.. Dude come back in 7 years when you finish residency and read your ridiculous statement.. The most optimistic physicians wouldnt do it again..

 

[doc05]

leechy,

your comments are naive but I can't say I thought much differently at your age. it's a shame you're going into medicine because of the "intellectual interest" -- since there is virtually nothing intellectual about medicine.

 

[Dire Straits]

a career in medicine is not for everyone, but as mentioned before you won't really know if it is or isn't for you until you go through it for yourself. that being said, don't let those who have realized medicine isn't for them discourage you. there are many people who are content that they are doctors, as there are those who wish they had done something else. it is not all doom and gloom. for example i myself am glad that i chose this path because i have experienced what other "jobs" in the real world are like and they just don't suit me. so yes if i was somehow brought me back in time knowing what i know now i would still apply to med school.

 

[Toofscum]

Don't do law. I have a J.D. and any profefssion is better than law, in my opinion. Now I'm either pre-med, pre-dent, or neither, I'm not sure. I'm leaning toward dent, or if neither then I'm going to be an entrepreneur. Not really quite sure yet, I'm giving myself until mid-June to either submit my apps or not.

 

[nradsoit3]

"You Think You Know, but You Have NOOOOOO Idea"
-MTV diary

If I was lucky enough to inherit enough money from a super rich uncle to pay off my monstrous med school debts I would be out of medicine in a heart beat! If I could declare bankruptcy and have a clean slate, I would in a nanosecond! Doesn't look like either of these are going to happen so I am essentially STUCK- in other words- I AM A SLAVE. If I could go back to college oh how I would have done things differently! The person who said that medical school cannot be described unless you experience it is dead on. I was once young, idealistic, altruistic, and optimistic. Now, I am embittered, resentful, frustrated, and numb. My saddest epiphany- I have learned that it is hard to be selfless in a selfish world. I knew I should've listened to my gut when on the first day of internship I felt like dropping my clipboard and running out of the hospital!

 

[turtle md]

I have learned that it is hard to be selfless in a selfish world.

If you want to be a selfless person ... join the clergy or be a missionary.

If you want to be a rich person ... go into business or the computer industry.

I am NOT a selfless person. I am probably the most selfish bastard I know. But I didn't chose medicine to "help" others. I choose it because it seemed like it would be a great ride. The downs suck ... the ups rock 😀 . I would not change my path...

 

[Leukocyte]

"You Think You Know, but You Have NOOOOOO Idea"
-MTV diary

If I was lucky enough to inherit enough money from a super rich uncle to pay off my monstrous med school debts I would be out of medicine in a heart beat! If I could declare bankruptcy and have a clean slate, I would in a nanosecond! Doesn't look like either of these are going to happen so I am essentially STUCK- in other words- I AM A SLAVE. If I could go back to college oh how I would have done things differently! The person who said that medical school cannot be described unless you experience it is dead on. I was once young, idealistic, altruistic, and optimistic. Now, I am embittered, resentful, frustrated, and numb. My saddest epiphany- I have learned that it is hard to be selfless in a selfish world. I knew I should've listened to my gut when on the first day of internship I felt like dropping my clipboard and running out of the hospital!

I hear you bro...

Thats why I am completing my MBA (Just in case I feel like running out of the hospital on the first day of my residency, like you felt doing).

It's a Bi*ch......, I know.

Good Luck....

 

[Furrball2]

undergrad

No his numbers seem about right to me. I'm graduating from med school on the 1st with eleven years of college, grad, and med school. If I had finished my PhD instead of quitting with a masters then it would have been more liek 13 or 14 years then add on two more for post-docs....

 

[on_the_fence]

Wow. It is hard to know how to react to this thread. I am constantly struggling with whether or not I want to go to medical school. One post makes me want to run as far from medicine as possible; the next is encouraging. It is not a matter of being capable but a matter of lifestyle.Insurance and malpractice seems to be tainting the field and the hearts of many physicians.

On one hand, it is practical -- stable, decent pay, structured. On the other hand, it is (almost) all consuming. Having a strong family life and being a full time physician seems nearly impossible.

Even though I am not there yet, it sounds like the experience makes people jaded.

I have thought of nursing as an alternative -- less responsibility, better hours, less schooling -- but then I worry about dealing with a**hole doctors whose egos barely fit in their pants (and yes, I know there are cool/kind/want-to-work-for docs out there). I've done all the "right" things -- shadowing, research, volunteering -- but I'm still not *sure*. According to some people's posts about "wanting to be a doctor more than anything," med school isn't my best option. 🙂

Thanks for all the candid posts -- both positive and negative. I think people forget that the grass is always greener on the other side. If you're not dealing with insurance, you're dealing with the flux of the economy or something equally daunting. People can always find something gripe about -- you just have to decide what you want to gripe about. 🙂

 

[sidelines]

...the grass is greener on the other side...

The above statement is very true. Like has been said before, people like to complain and people will complain about almost anything.

Yes, medicine has it's drawbacks and yes, some are rather big. The people who have said stay away from medicine always suggest law, business, or invesment banking.

With law, it is almost necessary to go to a Tier 1 school and be in the top 25% or better to land a high paying job. The benefits, a decent salary coupled with extremely long work hours (60+ hours).

Moving on to business. Again, one needs to attend a top b-school to actually land a decent position. Furthermore, to attend a top school, they require at least 2 years of prior relevant work experience. The benefits can include a good salary, bonuses, long hours with travel.

To get a position in I-banking, one had better attend either Wharton, HBS, or the like to break into the field. The benefits of this career are extremely high salaries along with extremly brutal hours (75+).

The nay-sayers are probably asking whether I have attended med school and are wondering where I get my information. No, I have not attended med school. I get most of my information from the vault, another web message board. And no, I don't believe everything I read from that site or this site, nor should anybody else.

Thus far, I have shadowed 3 physicians. All 3 have encourage me to pursue medicine. I also work at a pharmacy. The 2 pharmacists encourage me to go the med route as well. Is this a large sample? No.

No position is perfect. The call it "work" for a reason.

Sorry for the long post and thanks for reading. 🙂

 

[on_the_fence]

The nay-sayers are probably asking whether I have attended med school and are wondering where I get my information. No, I have not attended med school. I get most of my information from the vault, another web message board. And no, I don't believe everything I read from that site or this site, nor should anybody else.

Thus far, I have shadowed 3 physicians. All 3 have encourage me to pursue medicine. I also work at a pharmacy. The 2 pharmacists encourage me to go the med route as well. Is this a large sample? No.

Sometimes it's hard to remember to take all of this with a grain of salt. Everything posted in personal opinion and experience -- who knows what kind of mood the person was in when he/she posted. 🙂

I'm in the same boat as you -- everyone I have worked with has encouraged me to go to med school. I still have my doubts.

 

[Toofscum]

What the above poster says about law is true. I have a J.D., and did not go to a top 25 law school. Nor was I in the top of my class--more like near the bottom. The salaries in law for people like me are pretty dismal. Like 40's because we will not be able to get into a large firm, which is where the money is. At best, we will be able to find jobs in small to medium-sized firms, which have pretty modest salaries for lawyers and the lawyers still have to work very long hours. Doesn't sound very appealing to me, especially because I have no interest whatsoever in the law.

People keep saying to do medicine only if there is nothing else you'd rather do. I feel like there are some careers out there that I could tolerate, but not love. Is just tolerating your work a good reason to decide to go for medicine? For instance, I know that if I were to practice law I would just be tolerating it. Or, if I instead chose a career in non-profit management I would again just be tolerating it. However, I have a definite passion for medicine, health, and patients.

But the thought of spending nearly all my 30's studying kind of scares me. It kind of scares me to think of giving up pretty much everything else--free time, hobbies, outside interests, etc. just to get through med school and residency. For those of you non-trads embarking on the medical path, have you come to terms with this idea--of giving up nearly everything else in the single-minded pursuit of one thing--the MD? Especially for those of us who are married (like me) and thinking of having kids (again, like me) this is especially an issue. Does a non-trad embarking on this path need to feel like he or she has "gotten out of their system" all their hobbies, outside interests, and non-medical goals?

For those of you who are already interns and residents, would you agree that you pretty much have to come to terms with this and be willing to sacrifice everything for the medical path? If so, why would anyone in their right mind agree to do that, given the fact that there appear to be a substantial number of cons to actually practicing medicine, not to mention the hazing of internship and residency?

I consider myself a renaissance person, meaning I have a lot of diverse hobbies, interests, and goals. They're what make me, me. I wonder if I would be unhappy setting all of that aside more or less for 8 whole years. Especially because I have to work really, really hard in science, probably harder than the fresh from college science majors would in med school. I think the fact that I'd have to work extra hard would more or less obliterate most of my free time, and the rest of that free time would be spent on making sure my marriage is strong and healthy.

So I am also on the fence. I have worked full-time in the hospital, I have volunteered and shadowed up the wazoo. I did a post-bacc while in law school and did all my pre-reqs and took the MCAT. I've come really far in this process, to the point of being about to apply this month for the class of 2006. I don't know what to do. I'm non-trad as well. I've had real-life experience in a variety of jobs, in addition to law, and didn't find a good fit in any of those. What to do, what to do....

 

[Leukocyte]

If you guys do not see yourselves doing anything other than medicine....... (and you are not one of those nuts who is idealistic, or who thinks that TV gigs like ER and Scrubs are reflections of real world medicine)...then go for it.

You will not really know what clinical medicine is all about until MS-3/MS-4. If you do not like Clinical Medicine after experiencing how "crappy" it is....oops, sorry 😳 ...then you can always go into non-clinical fields, like Pathology and Radiology.

Sorry, there is no crystal ball here that can predict your happiness in medicine. You have to try it first for yourself.

Good Luck.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

You will not really know what clinical medicine is all about until MS-3/MS-4. If you do not like Clinical Medicine after experiencing how "crappy" it is....oops, sorry 😳 ...then you can always go into non-clinical fields, like Pathology and Radiology.

I agree with fatass cartman here. I was one of these folks.

 

[RADRULES]

Run as far from medicine as you can....

Geez... it sucks. It is way overrated. Even radiology, which some people claim is great, sucks in its own way.

I would have partied 10x more in college, laid more pipe to the hot coeds, and go another route with my life if I could go back.

 

[humuhumu]

I consider myself a renaissance person, meaning I have a lot of diverse hobbies, interests, and goals. They're what make me, me. I wonder if I would be unhappy setting all of that aside more or less for 8 whole years. Especially because I have to work really, really hard in science, probably harder than the fresh from college science majors would in med school. I think the fact that I'd have to work extra hard would more or less obliterate most of my free time, and the rest of that free time would be spent on making sure my marriage is strong and healthy.

The irony is, you're exactly the kind of person the adcoms are looking for. They want well-rounded people with lots of interests and achievements and interpersonal skills. Yet medical school and postgraduate training are utterly incompatible with leading a healthy, balanced life! Even practicing physicians complain more often than not about spending too much time at work...

 

[Toofscum]

The irony is, you're exactly the kind of person the adcoms are looking for. They want well-rounded people with lots of interests and achievements and interpersonal skills. Yet medical school and postgraduate training are utterly incompatible with leading a healthy, balanced life! Even practicing physicians complain more often than not about spending too much time at work...

......I'm not the kind of person they're looking for....I applied for the class of 2005 and got no interviews. 🙁 So I'm (maybe) re-applying for the class of 2006. And I only applied to lower tier schools (Ros. Franklin, NYMC, Albany, Rush, etc.)

 

[lilycat]

When my class was preparing our schedules for clinical rotations, our Dean gave us the following advice (I'm paraphrasing here): "Do not go down this path if you are essentially 'married' to the idea of only one specialty."

I think this was very sage advice in many ways. Yes, you are "guaranteed" a certain level of salary as a practicing MD, but some of the inflated figures that people throw around on these message boards are obviously specific to certain lucrative, very competitive fields, fields that are only open to the top grads at each school. In this sense, medicine is no different from some of the comparisons people have made to careers in law or business.

So, while you might enter med school assuming that you are going to become an ENT, radiologist, or GI doc, things happen, plans may be derailed. Then, the question becomes, will you still want to be a physician if it means likely entering a generalist, relatively non-competitive field such as internal medicine, family practice, or pediatrics? Keep in mind, these are the fields that tend to have the lowest average compensation across the board. And, you will still have the same debt regardless of the field you go into.

 

[DrKnowItAll]

I think law is a great field. My cousin went to a mid-level law school (partime) after her PHD and is now doing patent law, making a lot of money. She is very happy.

Although it is true that no matter what you do you have to work hard to be successful, working 60 hours in medicine is by no means equivelent to 60 hours in other fields. It is a hundred times worse. You have no protected break time, may skip luch frequently, you spend your time in an enviornment where everyone is yelling and bitter, your "clients" are very often rude, smelly, with great expectations and no respect, you often have no palpable real measure of success with your patients, the system works entirely against you but you are expected NOT to complain because you are a DOCTOR and bound by made-up codes of honor and ethics, you are actually not saving as many lives as people may think (numerous studies point to the troubling fact that realy bad things could happen to people in the hands of the medical professional. Examples: 1. you go to the hospital for a leg infection that could have resolved on its own or with outptient abx, you get a nosocomial pneumonia, if you're old you may die, if you are young you may have residual scarring compromising your lung function and knocking off a few years off your life. 2. Many medications that were meant to help people actually hurt them 3. Many practices that are meant to help people actually hurt them 4. there are no cures for the most devestating diseases of today...cancer, heart disease, stroke. Hell, we can't even cure asthma or the common cold. Just "manage" them)

Today, combating disease is best achieved through prevention and you don't have to be a doctor to do that.

 

[MD'05]

......I'm not the kind of person they're looking for....I applied for the class of 2005 and got no interviews. 🙁 So I'm (maybe) re-applying for the class of 2006. And I only applied to lower tier schools (Ros. Franklin, NYMC, Albany, Rush, etc.)

Sorry to hear that. Most likely your "woah is me" attitude was detectable. If you already have the J.D. I would find my niche by opening my own little firm. Target some area of law where there is no glut of lawyers and provide a low-fee service. For example, assisting doctors in suing patients for stupidity. The key is volume and low overhead.

If you are unsure about medicine, don't waste your time. Unless you are in a super-elite specialty, medicine is just not worth the sacrifice of youth and money.

I like medicine and I like to be miserable (after much self analysis), but the pain and suffering is not for everyone.

Apologies for my bluntness, but a slap in the face is in order.

 

[PiccoloPlaya]

ROTFLMAO!

Target some area of law where there is no glut of lawyers and provide a low-fee service. For example, assisting doctors in suing patients for stupidity.

 

[Philo Beddo]

Jaded you will become. You will learn to resent a person for their suffering, especially when their disease is self-inflicted, because so often its not. Mostly its just random horror destroying people lives (I'm a hospitalist, can you tell?). It becomes alomst passive agressive.

As a generalist, you will always have work. And ou will always be overworked. You will always be at the bottom of the pay scale. Resentment is easily fostered.

Its easy to become an dingus, even if you started out being a nice person. 80 hour work weeks for minimum wage will do that. And it used to be 110 hour weeks.

Become a humanitarian. Suffer yourself. Have an operation. Be hospitalized. Then you'll understand the true power you have as a physician to help others.

Use humor.


Philo

Hippocritis.com <---medical satire for resident and medical students.

 

[Haversian]

I've been polishing my shoes in the Navy for the last 11 years, seven years with a commission as a surface officer: ship-driver, missile-shooter by declaration, 90% desk work in fact. I'm going to Tulane school of medicine in the fall. I love being in public service. I'm doing HPSP because it's free money. I'd go back anyway. more later...

 

[football56]

I would have to agree with most of the people in this forum who would not go into medicine again if they had a chance to do it all over again.

As a current undergraduate, my future goal is to cure a genetic syndrome. For example, Down syndrome, DiGeorge syndrome, etc. So, I spent my freshman year of college looking at the options that I have that would put me in the best position to reach my goal. I then spent some time in a local lab that deals with genetic research (using mice). I found this experience to be good, but was not sure if just working in a lab doing the research with no patient contact would be my best path. Therefore, I spent the rest of my freshman year contemplating what my best option was. During the summer of my freshman year I was thinking that doing a PhD in Molecular Genetics would be the best option for me. However, I then talked to a professor about this and the professor mentioned that I could do an MD/PhD. So, I looked into the MD/PhD and it seemed interesting and could possibly bet the best option for me. But being a transporter at a local hospital for the last two and a half years made me question the value of an MD/PhD for me. I was thinking to myself, I want to cure a genetic disorder, why would I want to be a part-time clinician and order CT scans, x-rays and echo’s when I would need to be in the lab doing the research to cure the genetic syndrome? Thus, during the first months of this year I started to research about clinical genetics. After doing so, I spent 40 hours shadowing a couple of clinical geneticist. While shadowing the two doctors, I became hesitant to becoming a clinical geneticist for the following reasons: I felt that every follow up that we did was not going to get me in the position to cure a genetic syndrome-it seemed like a waste of time-little to no value came out of the follow ups. However, I was intrigued by the challenge of diagnosing genetic syndromes. However, the average time spent doing a patient consult for a clinical geneticist is about 45 minutes to 1 hour. I was impressed with the depth of knowledge that the genetic counselors have and how much they get to actually discuss to the patient about genetic syndromes. I was not impressed with how little a clinical geneticist actually talks to the patient about genetic syndromes. For example, most often the patient has no idea what a gene even is. How can I talk about genome instability, DNA repair, siRNA’s, RNAi, transcription, regulation, turning genes off and on, X-inactivation and imprinting when just about every patient has now idea what the DNA double helix is. Therefore, most of the clinical geneticist and genetic counselor can’t really say all that much to the patient. What value would I get out of this to help me cure a genetic syndrome? The only value that I would get out of going to medical school to help me cure a genetic syndrome would be anatomy. But why go 115,000 dollars in-depth to get an MD or an MD/PhD when the only class that I would get a value out of the medical school would be the anatomy class. Therefore, I have decided to get a PhD in Molecular Genetics and a possible MS in Genetic Counseling. This way I could do genetic counseling and do research to help me cure a genetic syndrome. After my shadowing of the Medical Genetics Department, I felt that the genetic counselors get more involved with the patients then do the clinical geneticist.

Some of the things that I have noticed as being a transporter at a hospital that I tell people is that a lot of the time the doctors don’t even see the patient, when the doctor does see the patient, they only spend a couple of minutes with the patient (in most cases). So much of what a doctor can do is controlled by insurance companies and drug companies, not so much by what the doctor wants to do. I think that less and less people are seeing doctors these days for many reasons. You don’t have to be a doctor to be educated about preventive medicine. Why are there so many patients that are always comming back to the hosital year after year when doctors want to help them out and cure their illness? It just isn't like that.

I have decided to get a PhD in Molecular Genetics and possibly also get an MS in Genetic Counseling. I have done some internet searching and have not been able to find a person that does both genetic counseling and genetic research with an MS/PhD. I’m not sure about the MS yet though. I could do a private genetic counselor practice and do the research with genetic syndromes.


Spending five years in a residency and four years in medical school and two more years in a fellowship does not put me in the position I want. Why go in 115,000 dollars in-depth in today’s economy if you can find a rewarding and fulfilling career outside of being controlled by insurance and drug companies. Instead I can start working on curing a genetic syndrome right at the start of my PhD by working in a lab that does research with genetic syndromes. Just about every person I have talked to about this has told me to get an MD instead of PhD, but I see more value in the PhD over the MD.

Doctors don’t help and save as many lives as a lot of people think. Most drugs don’t even work, and in a lot of cases the drugs do more harm then good. As another poster said in this forum, we don’t even have cures for the most common human ailments yet. I have heard numerous doctors say that don’t have a clue how the drugs even work that they prescribe.

 

[humuhumu]

I would have to agree with most of the people in this forum who would not go into medicine again if they had a chance to do it all over again.

As a current undergraduate, my future goal is to cure a genetic syndrome. For example, Down syndrome, DiGeorge syndrome, etc. So, I spent my freshman year of college looking at the options that I have that would put me in the best position to reach my goal. I then spent some time in a local lab that deals with genetic research (using mice). I found this experience to be good, but was not sure if just working in a lab doing the research with no patient contact would be my best path. Therefore, I spent the rest of my freshman year contemplating what my best option was. During the summer of my freshman year I was thinking that doing a PhD in Molecular Genetics would be the best option for me. However, I then talked to a professor about this and the professor mentioned that I could do an MD/PhD. So, I looked into the MD/PhD and it seemed interesting and could possibly bet the best option for me. But being a transporter at a local hospital for the last two and a half years made me question the value of an MD/PhD for me. I was thinking to myself, I want to cure a genetic disorder, why would I want to be a part-time clinician and order CT scans, x-rays and echo’s when I would need to be in the lab doing the research to cure the genetic syndrome? Thus, during the first months of this year I started to research about clinical genetics. After doing so, I spent 40 hours shadowing a couple of clinical geneticist. While shadowing the two doctors, I became hesitant to becoming a clinical geneticist for the following reasons: I felt that every follow up that we did was not going to get me in the position to cure a genetic syndrome-it seemed like a waste of time-little to no value came out of the follow ups. However, I was intrigued by the challenge of diagnosing genetic syndromes. However, the average time spent doing a patient consult for a clinical geneticist is about 45 minutes to 1 hour. I was impressed with the depth of knowledge that the genetic counselors have and how much they get to actually discuss to the patient about genetic syndromes. I was not impressed with how little a clinical geneticist actually talks to the patient about genetic syndromes. For example, most often the patient has no idea what a gene even is. How can I talk about genome instability, DNA repair, siRNA’s, RNAi, transcription, regulation, turning genes off and on, X-inactivation and imprinting when just about every patient has now idea what the DNA double helix is. Therefore, most of the clinical geneticist and genetic counselor can’t really say all that much to the patient. What value would I get out of this to help me cure a genetic syndrome? The only value that I would get out of going to medical school to help me cure a genetic syndrome would be anatomy. But why go 115,000 dollars in-depth to get an MD or an MD/PhD when the only class that I would get a value out of the medical school would be the anatomy class. Therefore, I have decided to get a PhD in Molecular Genetics and a possible MS in Genetic Counseling. This way I could do genetic counseling and do research to help me cure a genetic syndrome. After my shadowing of the Medical Genetics Department, I felt that the genetic counselors get more involved with the patients then do the clinical geneticist.

Some of the things that I have noticed as being a transporter at a hospital that I tell people is that a lot of the time the doctors don’t even see the patient, when the doctor does see the patient, they only spend a couple of minutes with the patient (in most cases). So much of what a doctor can do is controlled by insurance companies and drug companies, not so much by what the doctor wants to do. I think that less and less people are seeing doctors these days for many reasons. You don’t have to be a doctor to be educated about preventive medicine. Why are there so many patients that are always comming back to the hosital year after year when doctors want to help them out and cure their illness? It just isn't like that.

I have decided to get a PhD in Molecular Genetics and possibly also get an MS in Genetic Counseling. I have done some internet searching and have not been able to find a person that does both genetic counseling and genetic research with an MS/PhD. I’m not sure about the MS yet though. I could do a private genetic counselor practice and do the research with genetic syndromes.


Spending five years in a residency and four years in medical school and two more years in a fellowship does not put me in the position I want. Why go in 115,000 dollars in-depth in today’s economy if you can find a rewarding and fulfilling career outside of being controlled by insurance and drug companies. Instead I can start working on curing a genetic syndrome right at the start of my PhD by working in a lab that does research with genetic syndromes. Just about every person I have talked to about this has told me to get an MD instead of PhD, but I see more value in the PhD over the MD.

Doctors don’t help and save as many lives as a lot of people think. Most drugs don’t even work, and in a lot of cases the drugs do more harm then good. As another poster said in this forum, we don’t even have cures for the most common human ailments yet. I have heard numerous doctors say that don’t have a clue how the drugs even work that they prescribe.

I think you're doing what everyone should do before embarking on a career with a very long training period such as science or medicine, i.e., get lots of informed opinions, understand your goals and priorities, weigh the pros and cons of many options, etc. In your case it sounds like you're on the right track. The key will be finding a graduate program that is a good fit for you. Your post reminded me of a remarkable personal essay that I read recently in Science (1 April 2005, p. 55): "When science is not enough: fighting genetic disease in Brazil". I think you would enjoy it.

 

[blue2000]

I think you're doing what everyone should do before embarking on a career with a very long training period such as science or medicine, i.e., get lots of informed opinions, understand your goals and priorities, weigh the pros and cons of many options, etc. In your case it sounds like you're on the right track. The key will be finding a graduate program that is a good fit for you. Your post reminded me of a remarkable personal essay that I read recently in Science (1 April 2005, p. 55): "When science is not enough: fighting genetic disease in Brazil". I think you would enjoy it.

I totally agree. Doing the research is really important. A lot of us, who are in medicine but do not have goals such as curing genetic diseases, find a different set of rewards than the long post above. I would never tell a soul that the things that I find rewarding in life are what every one should be rewarded by. If your goal is to cure a genetic disease, an MD is most likely the wrong route (with very few exceptions). Many of us find that the small victories in medicine are the ones we treasure most, especially on a patient to patient level. But many of us find satisfaction in small victories because there are so few large ones.

 

[Sanman]

football 56,
Just as an FYI from someone who also considered a research career. If you do an md/PhD it is 7 years long, which is about the long end of the time it takes for a regular PhD. Also, it is free becaue you are doing the PhD in conjunction. It makes you more marketable for research grants and gets you a much higher salary. The academic job market is really not very good nowadays and you may want to seroiusly consuder applying. Check out the Md/PhD forum for more info.

 

[CambieMD]

I would go to med school again, in a heart beat. Yes, medicine is a difficult field but there is no profession that doesn't present some type of challenge.

There are few professions that can give you the degree of satisfaction that you get out of medicine. The feeling that I get when I help someone who is sick feel better is great. Do I have bad days, yes.

I am not naive. I have seen more crap than I would want to admit. I am probably a little cynical but I do not want to do anything but work as a physician.

CambieMD

 

[MD'05]

I would go to med school again, in a heart beat. Yes, medicine is a difficult field but there is no profession that doesn't present some type of challenge.

There are few professions that can give you the degree of satisfaction that you get out of medicine. The feeling that I get when I help someone who is sick feel better is great. Do I have bad days, yes.

I am not naive. I have seen more crap than I would want to admit. I am probably a little cynical but I do not want to do anything but work as a physician.

CambieMD

Aren't you an FP? Which specialty would you choose if you had a chance to retrain?

 

[CambieMD]

Aren't you an FP? Which specialty would you choose if you had a chance to retrain?

The only thing that I wanted to change was my chosen specialty. The opportuinty was presented to me and I took it. I would wake up every day and say to myself, "I should have done anesthesia." I got rid of my patients and pass the time until I start, working in an urgent care clinic. Today is a slow day so I am mostly reading and hanging out on this forum.

I think that the problem with a lot of docs and med students is that they expect too much of medicine. There is no specialty in medicine where you can make a great living and do next to nothing. You have to work hard.

CambieMD

 

[MD'05]

The only thing that I wanted to change was my chosen specialty. The opportuinty was presented to me and I took it. I would wake up every day and say to myself, "I should have done anesthesia." I got rid of my patients and pass the time until I start, working in an urgent care clinic. Today is a slow day so I am mostly reading and hanging out on this forum.

I think that the problem with a lot of docs and med students is that they expect too much of medicine. There is no specialty in medicine where you can make a great living and do next to nothing. You have to work hard.

CambieMD

Congratulations on the switch to anesthesia! How did you handle the medicare funding situation? I understand that you have a maximum of 5 years of medicare funding before board cert. However, I know many docs that have training in various specialties. How do they do that?

 

[CambieMD]

Funding doesn't seem to be that much of an issue in anesthesia. Funding is more of an issue in other specialties. I think that a program will find a way to fund an applicant who they really want to have in their program.


CambieMD