If you could do it over would you

[ForSkin]

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You'd best watch your step there son, you're on shaky ground. Keep your self-righteous thoughts to yourself.

that's so laughable, son. you gonna throw down because your marriage couldn't handle you studying a few more hours a day? with that short a fuse, let's hand this guy a retractor and keep the no. 15 blade out of his hands.

though i will admit that the little diatribe on the great indian culture's not knowing the meaning of divorce was a bit lame. yes, let's all adopt indian marriage practices: reinforce centuries-old prejudices through arranged marriages and exchange livestock to even out the entire business transaction.

 

[gujuDoc]

that's so laughable, son. you gonna throw down because your marriage couldn't handle you studying a few more hours a day? with that short a fuse, let's hand this guy a retractor and keep the no. 15 blade out of his hands.

though i will admit that the little diatribe on the great indian culture's not knowing the meaning of divorce was a bit lame. yes, let's all adopt indian marriage practices: reinforce centuries-old prejudices through arranged marriages and exchange livestock to even out the entire business transaction.

Ok no need to keep blasting me when I apologized and should have clearly rephrased my opinions or what I was saying. I have apologized numerously about coming off the wrong way and already acknowledged that I was in the wrong partially. There is no reason to keep egging it on.

 

[Rudy Guliani]

that's so laughable, son. you gonna throw down because your marriage couldn't handle you studying a few more hours a day? with that short a fuse, let's hand this guy a retractor and keep the no. 15 blade out of his hands.

though i will admit that the little diatribe on the great indian culture's not knowing the meaning of divorce was a bit lame. yes, let's all adopt indian marriage practices: reinforce centuries-old prejudices through arranged marriages and exchange livestock to even out the entire business transaction.

ForSkin, your name suits you. No need to be a dickhead.

 

[ForSkin]

ForSkin, your name suits you. No need to be a dickhead.

in case anyone was offended, i was talking about the CLEVELAND INDIANS (wahoo and feather, not red dot and tandoori) and former pitcher chuck finley's turbulent marriage to tawny kataan of whitesnake fame.

and yes, if i could do it all over, i would have definitely stopped you guys from jamming that stick so far up your respective arses. lighten up my good people.

very, very shaky .....

 

[gujuDoc]

I'm just going to say one more thing and leave it at that......

If I could go back and redo that response, I'd do it. But I can't. So for anyone else who reads my first response without choosing to review the rest of my posts below it........

I cannot delete that now since its already been quoted, so just let it go and leave it be.

Why don't we get back to the original topic and here what people's thoughts are on this issue. Now then........

 

[DrKnowItAll]

We're beating this issue to death, but it's kind of fun and somewhat important for those who are contemplating going to med school. The medical profession is diverse, with many opportunities and challenges. I'm a PGY2 at at a so called top 10 IM program. If I had the chance, I would leave the profession today. It's just not worth it, especially not IM. The worst mistake of my life was to chose this specialty.

The honest truth is that the bottom line in this profession is how much money you make and specialties in which people work hard and make little money are just plain miserable. This goes for all primary care and almost all IM subspecialties. If you can do it, go for radialogy, optho, derm, ... Otherwise, you'll be poor, unhappy, and overworked forever. Given the fact that we only have one life to live, a career in medicine is only worth it if you are in one of the elite specialies.

The sad thing is that most in medicine, after practicing for many years, get used to feeling miserable and make themselves believe that everyone else is the same. This may stem from the fact that many who end up in this profession are 1. following their dady's footsteps, 2. forced into it by their family (indian people paying attention?), 3. failed miserably in past careers, or 4. are totally maladjusted individuals not fit to advance in society through any other means.

I have never seen a successful and happy person quit their job and go to med school. I've , however, seen many for whom going to med school was the only way out of mediocracy and a lifetime of anxiety and depression.

So if you are going to do it, do it right and go into one of the elite specialies or else brace yourself for a lifetime of self-doubt and slavery.

 

[Teufelhunden]

I'm a PGY2 at at a so called top 10 IM program. If I had the chance, I would leave the profession today. It's just not worth it, especially not IM. The worst mistake of my life was to chose this specialty.

Instead of a lifetime of misery, why not just quit your residency and go into another field? You're only a PGY2, so you'd only "lose" a year, right? I mean, you could potentially apply for a PGY2 spot in another field.

 

[Teufelhunden]

A medical ethicist that lectured us last year (in med school) stated the following:

The three most respected professions in this country are physician, teacher, and clergyman. Only the physician makes a decent salary. 🙂

I recently read an article siting a poll which said that nurses were actually regarded higher than doctors, in terms of most trusted professionals. And...nurses' hourly rates are rapidly approaching those of physicians (they're sure as hell surpass my paltry intern pay!)

 

[gujuDoc]

We're beating this issue to death, but it's kind of fun and somewhat important for those who are contemplating going to med school. The medical profession is diverse, with many opportunities and challenges. I'm a PGY2 at at a so called top 10 IM program. If I had the chance, I would leave the profession today. It's just not worth it, especially not IM. The worst mistake of my life was to chose this specialty.

The honest truth is that the bottom line in this profession is how much money you make and specialties in which people work hard and make little money are just plain miserable. This goes for all primary care and almost all IM subspecialties. If you can do it, go for radialogy, optho, derm, ... Otherwise, you'll be poor, unhappy, and overworked forever. Given the fact that we only have one life to live, a career in medicine is only worth it if you are in one of the elite specialies.

The sad thing is that most in medicine, after practicing for many years, get used to feeling miserable and make themselves believe that everyone else is the same. This may stem from the fact that many who end up in this profession are 1. following their dady's footsteps, 2. forced into it by their family (indian people paying attention?), 3. failed miserably in past careers, or 4. are totally maladjusted individuals not fit to advance in society through any other means.

I have never seen a successful and happy person quit their job and go to med school. I've , however, seen many for whom going to med school was the only way out of mediocracy and a lifetime of anxiety and depression.

So if you are going to do it, do it right and go into one of the elite specialies or else brace yourself for a lifetime of self-doubt and slavery.

Thanks for the insight. One thing I'd like to ask though.....

Once you get out of IM residency, don't you have some subspecialties in there that are considered as high up there as some of the other fields???? Also, I thought Derm was a subspecialty of Internal medicine, or do you have to apply for derm separately??? For some reason, I was under the impression you have to do IM and then do a subspecialty fellowship.

Also, I'll agree with you on those 4 things that you listed as reasons for people going into med school. The Indian thing, was not true of my particular case, nor following daddy's footsteps. However, I've known many other Indian parents to tell their children that they'll disown them or stop helping them out unless they opt to do a career in medicine. Its quite pathetic, in my opinion.

I think, at some point in my life, I've met people that fall in all 4 categories that you listed above. So true that.

 

[gujuDoc]

I recently read an article siting a poll which said that nurses were actually regarded higher than doctors, in terms of most trusted professionals. And...nurses' hourly rates are rapidly approaching those of physicians (they're sure as hell surpass my paltry intern pay!)

Interesting.

 

[gujuDoc]

Instead of a lifetime of misery, why not just quit your residency and go into another field? You're only a PGY2, so you'd only "lose" a year, right? I mean, you could potentially apply for a PGY2 spot in another field.

I have no room to talk, but I'd assume the answer is that switching residencies most likely won't solve the problem. Considering the huge amount of hours doctors work in almost all residencies, for very little pay, I'd doubt that its going to be a whole lot better at a different program or different field, well unless its rads or derm.

 

[Sanman]

Question for Drknowitall, Do you think your specialty choice is the only reason you ar eunhappy or the program itself. The reason I ask is that I know a lot of the top 10 programs in fields like IM tend to work residents to death (Hopkins comes to mind). I have a friend who worked in a University affialted community hospital who worked 7-5 normally, 7-9 on call (after that night float took over). And I believe he was off at least till noon post call, though I'm not sure about that. Now, while that is still more hours than average it is certainly far less than what I have heard about some truly malignant programs. The reason I ask is because ,though I have never been a resident, I have fouund myself much more miserable when striving for the top than when I settled for something simply decent.

 

[Gut Shot]

I have no room to talk, but I'd assume the answer is that switching residencies most likely won't solve the problem. Considering the huge amount of hours doctors work in almost all residencies, for very little pay, I'd doubt that its going to be a whole lot better at a different program or different field, well unless its rads or derm.

It's true that most specialties will work you pretty hard, but the nature of the work between fields is vastly different. You'll see that when you reach third year and find that no two rotations are similar in flavor. I love being in pathology, for instance, but I'm pretty sure I'd take a kukri to my scrotum before doing IM and rounding for 11.5 hours per day. That's just me, though. The daily grind for each specialty is unique, and uniquely challenging. You mentioned rads an derm, but there are many others that could allow DrKnowItAll to live without suicidal ideation.

 

[Dire Straits]

blah, blah, blah....

medicine is hard work, it doesn't pay as much as it used to, my gf/bf/wife/husband is upset i work so many hours, i can't decide what else to do with my life except for medicine, oh woes me...

you people are just reaffirming the notion that med students and residents are some of the biggest whiners around. i swear i wonder if most of you have ever done an honest day's work in the real world before med school. maybe then you'd realize it's not that bad.

 

[lexrageorge]

blah, blah, blah....

medicine is hard work, it doesn't pay as much as it used to, my gf/bf/wife/husband is upset i work so many hours, i can't decide what else to do with my life except for medicine, oh woes me...

you people are just reaffirming the notion that med students and residents are some of the biggest whiners around. i swear i wonder if most of you have ever done an honest day's work in the real world before med school. maybe then you'd realize it's not that bad.

Finally a post to bring some sanity to this thread. Medicine is a very diverse field, far more diverse than others. If you don't like dealing with older people with chronic conditions, don't do IM. If you don't like dealing with patients at all, do something like pathology or rads. If you go into surgery or OB/GYN, plan to work a lot. People get sick or hurt at all hours, so you will have to work some nights and weekends. Some specialties are worse than others in this regard. None of this should be a surprise.

In any profession, and in any specialty, you will find people that wish they did something else. Every field has its advantages and disadvantages. We all wish we could work 20 hours per week and make >$1M annually. The only field where you can do that is venture capital, but getting there requires huge effort, a ton of good luck, and connections. Another option is to marry into the Hilton family. But, for the rest of us, it's off to work we go.

 

[supercut]

Alright, ya'll need to lay off gujuDoc. SHE made some excellent points. Any difficulty can derail a marriage. Medical school/residency can be just one of those difficulties. She is right that American culture tends to not value marriage as much as other cultures do.

I think this thread serves an excellent purpose, and the original poster is wise to collect both the plusses and minuses. I did that when deciding a specialty. I started out thinking that I'd do emergency medicine, then we had a presentation from ED doc who spent 90% of his time talking about the disadvantages. I realized the disadvanatges would drive me nuts. When I heard about the disadvanatges of surgery, they didn't bother me. So you need to evaluate both the postive and negative of what you think you want to do.

As I stated before, I have absoutely no regret whatsoever. I went back to med school as an older student, and now am a resident who is older than many of my attendings. Sometimes is was and is very hard, but I have never regretted it.

However, I want to share this from Medical Economics March 4 ,2005. It's part of a short article called "Straws that break you back". The business aspects of medicine are often overlooked until it's too late. They aren't discussed beforehand, not taught in med school or residency. YOu just learn on the street after you start your first job. So here is an exerpt

"I agree with President Bush that The EHR (electronic health record) and paperless prescribing are desireable. However, as a solo physician, my EHR may be the straw that breaks this camel's back. I have had an EHR for the last 7 years. I have upgraded 3 times and have just been told that my 6 year old server is a dinosaur and needs at the least a significant upgrade. The labor alone costs $95/hr in my local market

"This year my medical malpractice premium has gone up 100 percent and my employee heath insurance costs 25 percent; my rent increased every year, and oh yes, my medical supplies, postage, you name it, also keep going up. I can no longer afford to provide pnumococcal vaccine for my patients becuase I am charged $25 a dose for the vaccine, and Medicare reimburses me only $18. I have nipped and tucked everywhere I can and I will still be taking a pay cut (as I have for the last 6 years) just to keep my office doors open.

"Unlike other businesses, I cannot pass my increased operating costs along. My reimbursments are fixed. I may not be able to afford to practice medicine at all much longer. let alone practice with luxuries like an EHR. Rather than upgrade my system to acomodate the "new and improved" version of my EHR, I will likely have to dump the whole thing and go back to pen and paper. We have a serious crisis going on in the health care industry right now without needing to add stress or finiancial liability of electronic carpetbagging"

Medical Economics is a journal about the business aspect of medicine. If you can access it from your library, it's worth taking some time to poke around.

Just for the record, despite even the above exerpt, I don't regret going into medicine. I'm just submitting this to provide food for thought.

 

[gujuDoc]

Alright, ya'll need to lay off gujuDoc. SHE made some excellent points. Any difficulty can derail a marriage. Medical school/residency can be just one of those difficulties. She is right that American culture tends to not value marriage as much as other cultures do.

I think this thread serves an excellent purpose, and the original poster is wise to collect both the plusses and minuses. I did that when deciding a specialty. I started out thinking that I'd do emergency medicine, then we had a presentation from ED doc who spent 90% of his time talking about the disadvantages. I realized the disadvanatges would drive me nuts. When I heard about the disadvanatges of surgery, they didn't bother me. So you need to evaluate both the postive and negative of what you think you want to do.

As I stated before, I have absoutely no regret whatsoever. I went back to med school as an older student, and now am a resident who is older than many of my attendings. Sometimes is was and is very hard, but I have never regretted it.

However, I want to share this from Medical Economics March 4 ,2005. It's part of a short article called "Straws that break you back". The business aspects of medicine are often overlooked until it's too late. They aren't discussed beforehand, not taught in med school or residency. YOu just learn on the street after you start your first job. So here is an exerpt

"I agree with President Bush that The EHR (electronic health record) and paperless prescribing are desireable. However, as a solo physician, my EHR may be the straw that breaks this camel's back. I have had an EHR for the last 7 years. I have upgraded 3 times and have just been told that my 6 year old server is a dinosaur and needs at the least a significant upgrade. The labor alone costs $95/hr in my local market

"This year my medical malpractice premium has gone up 100 percent and my employee heath insurance costs 25 percent; my rent increased every year, and oh yes, my medical supplies, postage, you name it, also keep going up. I can no longer afford to provide pnumococcal vaccine for my patients becuase I am charged $25 a dose for the vaccine, and Medicare reimburses me only $18. I have nipped and tucked everywhere I can and I will still be taking a pay cut (as I have for the last 6 years) just to keep my office doors open.

"Unlike other businesses, I cannot pass my increased operating costs along. My reimbursments are fixed. I may not be able to afford to practice medicine at all much longer. let alone practice with luxuries like an EHR. Rather than upgrade my system to acomodate the "new and improved" version of my EHR, I will likely have to dump the whole thing and go back to pen and paper. We have a serious crisis going on in the health care industry right now without needing to add stress or finiancial liability of electronic carpetbagging"

Medical Economics is a journal about the business aspect of medicine. If you can access it from your library, it's worth taking some time to poke around.

Just for the record, despite even the above exerpt, I don't regret going into medicine. I'm just submitting this to provide food for thought.

I will definitely check out that magazine. I'm sure I can access it at the med school affiliated with our undergrad institution, if it is not at the undergrad campus's library. Thanks for your insight. Out of curiousity, what year resident are you, and what was your specialty???

 

[gujuDoc]

It's true that most specialties will work you pretty hard, but the nature of the work between fields is vastly different. You'll see that when you reach third year and find that no two rotations are similar in flavor. I love being in pathology, for instance, but I'm pretty sure I'd take a kukri to my scrotum before doing IM and rounding for 11.5 hours per day. That's just me, though. The daily grind for each specialty is unique, and uniquely challenging. You mentioned rads an derm, but there are many others that could allow DrKnowItAll to live without suicidal ideation.

Oh ok. I just mentioned Rads and Derm, because everyone and their mother always say oh Rads and Derm have the best working hours blah blah blah blah blah to no ends. I don't know the truth to it, or much about their fields. But everywhere I turn, I keep hearing that they are supposedly big in getting people's attention due to working conditions and what not.

 

[GoPistons]

if success were easy everybody would do it... truth is... most everyone bit$#es about everything... Ibankers bit#$ that they don't get respect... lawyers bit#$ cuz everyone hates their guts... doctors bit@# b/c they think they work so much harder than everyone else... bit@# bit!@ bit*&

welcome to America... everyone bit@#ing even tho they live in the wealthiest nation in the world... have clean water, ample supply of activities, relative safety, and an incredibly stable political system etc. etc.

bit@!, bit#$, bit@#

unless you can't feed your kids, you're about to die from cholera, and your wife was just raped and murdered by some fascist political movement... please don't bit@! relative to all of that... IM is a great field... and so is working at wal-mart... you can pick the one that suits you or anything inbetween...

 

[Blade28]

I recently read an article siting a poll which said that nurses were actually regarded higher than doctors, in terms of most trusted professionals. And...nurses' hourly rates are rapidly approaching those of physicians (they're sure as hell surpass my paltry intern pay!)

They definitely make more than I do at my institution. I haven't even received my first paycheck yet! (We don't get paid until the end of each month.)

 

[Blade28]

Once you get out of IM residency, don't you have some subspecialties in there that are considered as high up there as some of the other fields???? Also, I thought Derm was a subspecialty of Internal medicine, or do you have to apply for derm separately??? For some reason, I was under the impression you have to do IM and then do a subspecialty fellowship.

Derm is a separate residency. You might be confusing the initial prelim/transitional year (usually in Internal Medicine) with a full-length residency.

 

[gujuDoc]

if success were easy everybody would do it... truth is... most everyone bit$#es about everything... Ibankers bit#$ that they don't get respect... lawyers bit#$ cuz everyone hates their guts... doctors bit@# b/c they think they work so much harder than everyone else... bit@# bit!@ bit*&

welcome to America... everyone bit@#ing even tho they live in the wealthiest nation in the world... have clean water, ample supply of activities, relative safety, and an incredibly stable political system etc. etc.

bit@!, bit#$, bit@#

unless you can't feed your kids, you're about to die from cholera, and your wife was just raped and murdered by some fascist political movement... please don't bit@! relative to all of that... IM is a great field... and so is working at wal-mart... you can pick the one that suits you or anything inbetween...

You make some good points. Nonetheless, it is refreshing to hear honest views of medicine from different med students and residents. I say this because most of those dumb premed forums only give you pretty pink flowers and sunny bright sky pictures of how their med schools are, and how being in med school is. They never give the real picture of what they may have been through or how it really is. So it has been good to read some real life opinions from current residents and med students.

 

[gujuDoc]

Derm is a separate residency. You might be confusing the initial prelim/transitional year (usually in Internal Medicine) with a full-length residency.

Ah I see. That makes more sense.

 

[DrKnowItAll]

Teufelhunden:

I thought about switching to radiology until a business opportunity came along. After finishing residency, I'm out of "clinical" medicine.

Sanman:

I don't think my "unhappiness" has anything to do with the program. In fact, I'm gald to be in a very academic enviornment because doing research is the only thing maintaining my sanity right now and giving me focus.

Dire Straites:

You are a good example of the kind of mentality that gets used to feeling miserable and thinks that everyone in "the real world" is the same. There is always a better option if you open your eyes.



I'm not affraid of working hard, I just find IM and all its off-shoots pretty meaningless and unrewarding. I refuse to waste the rest of my life being a foot soldier.

 

[Dire Straits]

Teufelhunden:

I thought about switching to radiology until a business opportunity came along. After finishing residency, I'm out of "clinical" medicine.

Sanman:

I don't think my "unhappiness" has anything to do with the program. In fact, I'm gald to be in a very academic enviornment because doing research is the only thing maintaining my sanity right now and giving me focus.

Dire Straites:

You are a good example of the kind of mentality that gets used to feeling miserable and thinks that everyone in "the real world" is the same. There is always a better option if you open your eyes.



I'm not affraid of working hard, I just find IM and all its off-shoots pretty meaningless and unrewarding. I refuse to waste the rest of my life being a foot soldier.

translation: i can't hack it in real medicine, so i'm going to be a quitter.

 

[PoorMD]

translation: i can't hack it in real medicine, so i'm going to be a quitter.

This thread was truly one of the most enlightening I have seen on SDN. There have been so many good points that it's impossible to quote, remember, analyze each one. ... But now for my story.. as an entering MS1 in Fall 2005, I've waited my turn long enough

I started undergrad school not knowing what I wanted. Got into engineering and before too long was working in industry for a major chemical company on the Gulf Coast (the only feasible location for a production engineer in Chemicals). Some of you have posted that "other professions let you use your brain to be creative." .... As an engineer, I know that is not true. There are procedures for everything, people who have already invented the "Most Effective Technology" (MET) and any improvements you might have will take years to replace the old MET.

Ultimately I work on projects to install equipment or code for the plant process, whether it be a pump or a condensor or even just some run of piping... Sometimes we improve energy efficiency, etc. Who cares, you may ask?

This career, engineering, is so pointless and mundane my existance is simply to "install X number of heat exchangers" or "design X number of piping loops." At the end of the day, I ask myself what I've accomplished? I usually end up saying "Well, I spent $75,000 of the company's money repairing some old piece of equipment that my Grandfather's colleauges likely designed" That would be a GOOD DAY. Bad days are more like " I wrote a procedure that helps new engineers spend $75,000 of the companies money repairing etc etc.. yada yada" ...I almost have to reconvince myself every morning that "I need to go to work..." I got into this because I enjoyed physical science!!!
However, the job never involves science because as I said before, someone already invented the MET. In reality, I am just biding my time until retirement...The business people who run the company make all the decisions about what I can and cannot do (somewhat analogous to the jerks who run insurance companies).

::exhales::

Hence, I switched fields. I am starting medicine in the Fall with the hope that I can bring some of my humor into the field. Hoping that I can ignore the attitudes of pestulant nurses. Hoping I can ignore the type-A neuro surgeons who are so pumped about themselves. Hoping that I can somehow grieve for the drunks, the druggies and the homeless that end up in my face. Most importantly, I want to be able to choose where I live, close to my ailing Grandparents. I also want to have a stable job and a good salary.

A lot of folks have said "I can't see myself doing anything else but medicine." Well I am not one of those.. I have already been in engineering, feeling useless as I drive home to an empty apartment with no wife and kids. I have been in acedamia (as a math tutor), feeling like no one really wanted to learn on their own and irritated with their bullS*%#. I have been in other basic jobs such as grocery stores and I know everyone there hates their life. .... Medicine is not my only option, it's just my last chance at making something worthwhile out of this so-far useless life.

 

[humuhumu]

I'm not affraid of working hard, I just find IM and all its off-shoots pretty meaningless and unrewarding. I refuse to waste the rest of my life being a foot soldier.

You don't have to be a foot soldier in medicine for the rest of your life. Play your cards right and opportunities for leadership will present themselves...

 

[Dire Straits]

I am starting medicine in the Fall with the hope that I can bring some of my humor into the field. Hoping that I can ignore the attitudes of pestulant nurses. Hoping I can ignore the type-A neuro surgeons who are so pumped about themselves. Hoping that I can somehow grieve for the drunks, the druggies and the homeless that end up in my face.

good luck pal. almost every freakin' incoming med student thinks those EXACT same thoughts. reality will take over sometime during 3rd year, if not sooner.

 

[deleted4401]

I feel pretty much the same as you, except at the beginning, I did think medicine was the only way. Don't really feel exactly that way anymore, but I agree with mostly everything you said ... in fact:

"Hence, I switched fields. I am starting medicine in the Fall with the hope that I can bring some of my humor into the field."

Definitely do-able. I do it everyday. I joke around with my colleagues (i.e. a few days ago, pleaded with a nurse to fake out a friend who was at lunch - "Dr. X, where have you been? We need you here right now ... pt. x is crashing!" He ran back in a cold sweat, saw me laughing, and punched me in the chest). I play tricks on nurses (i.e. "Okay, so we need a CXR and an EKG. Oh, and he was constipated, so I'm going to have to have you disimpact, thanks sweetie" the look on her face when I walked away was PRICELESS.

"Hoping that I can ignore the attitudes of pestulant nurses."

They aren't too bad. Soften 'em up. Flirt with 'em. Not the cute ones - that's too easy. Tell Betsy the 36 BMI floor nurse how great her hair looks, and ask about her two kids and talk about the latest rap music. I'm telling you, even the most pain in ass nurses respond to friendliness and a genuine interest in their lives.

"Hoping I can ignore the type-A neuro surgeons who are so pumped about themselves. "

Um, tough one. We hardly see 'em anyway, and when they act jerky, just high five and chest bump, and ask them how the game was. Whatever game. Just mentioning it should suffice.

"Hoping that I can somehow grieve for the drunks, the druggies and the homeless that end up in my face."

That's the hardest one. Not to be sentimental, but that's who I wanted to help the most, and sometimes they are the most challenging to deal with. They just keep hurting themselves. But we have good times, so it isn't soo bad. Yet, even at their worst, they are far more tolerable and more preferable than the worst - the demanding, entitled patient with the overbearing family. G-d help us, when we get one of those.

"I also want to have a stable job and a good salary."

Check. Check. Regardless of what people say. A pediatrician's salary is 3x the mean income in the USA. Even taking out private med school loan payments, it is still 2.7x the mean income.

Simul

 

[me454555]

The title of this thread is "Would you do it over" not "Why do you want to go to medical school" Anyone who hasn't gone through it or isn't currently going through it has no clue as to what is expected of you and how hard it really is. I'm a 3rd year medical student and I still don't feel qualified to really say if I would do it over or not b/c I don't have enough experience. This type of knowlege can only be gained by experience. W/out such experience your opinion is pretty worthless.

 

[gujuDoc]

You don't have to be a foot soldier in medicine for the rest of your life. Play your cards right and opportunities for leadership will present themselves...

While this is true, do you really know how hard that is?? Only a small percentage of doctors really can get to that top level, and often times even they say not to do it and that they wouldn't do it over again.

To the rest of you, who are medical students or residents or attendings, please keep the comments coming.

 

[rossiniane1]

hmmmm this is a really great thread! going to need to read all of these replies a few times and really think things over!
mark.... my top picks for life are medicine or music (pianist/guitarist) hah!

 

[humuhumu]

While this is true, do you really know how hard that is?? Only a small percentage of doctors really can get to that top level, and often times even they say not to do it and that they wouldn't do it over again.

To the rest of you, who are medical students or residents or attendings, please keep the comments coming.

I guess it depends how you define leadership. If you mean Chair of a department or Dean of a medical college or CEO of a hospital, you're right, those positions are scarce. But then you have residency directors, program directors, course directors, entrepreneurs... in fact, I'd say that *any* attending is in a position of leadership by virtue of the hierarchy in medicine (and health care in general). But I digress from the main point of this thread. Carry on....

 

[Leukocyte]

No, I personally would not do it again. My priorities now as a single 28 year old MS4 are VERY different from what they were 4 years ago when I was a 24 year old Pre-med/MS1. Now I am more concerned with:

1) Finding a wife and starting a family
2) Financial security
3) Life Style and engoying whatever is left in my youth (Only 22 years until I reach 50 😱 , and 15 years after I am done with residency! assuming I do not do a fellowship. )

My classmates from undergrad are already Labratory managers and supervisors, married, and living a stable happy life with MONEY IN THE BANK. Some even passed the 1 million mark!.....and here I am, a poor single medical student with a NEGATIVE net worth of 150,000.

Although I am still interested in medicine, it is no longer at the top of my priority list.....But there is no turning back now.

 

[MD Dreams]

No, I personally would not do it again. My priorities now as a single 28 year old MS4 are VERY different from what they were 4 years ago when I was a 24 year old Pre-med/MS1. Now I am more concerned with:

1) Finding a wife and starting a family
2) Financial security
3) Life Style and engoying whatever is left in my youth (Only 22 years until I reach 50 😱 , and 15 years after I am done with residency! assuming I do not do a fellowship. )

My classmates from undergrad are already Labratory managers and supervisors, married, and living a stable happy life with MONEY IN THE BANK. Some even passed the 1 million mark!.....and here I am, a poor single medical student with a NEGATIVE net worth of 150,000.

Although I am still interested in medicine, it is no longer at the top of my priority list.....But there is no turning back now.

Try being a 30 y/o MS2-MS3 (starting clinicals in a month). I completely agree and understand where you are coming from. It's wierd how priorities change when one get's just a little older. I would say that you're top 3 priorities are very close to mine (I'm not sure about the family part 🙂 ). I absolutely hated the first two years of medical school, but up to this point I would still do it in a heart beat. But that may change in time. However, I must say that I've had a lot of experience in the medical world prior to medical school and this has made me very aware that if I want to be happy I MUST choose the right specialty -- one in which I will make good money, enjoy what I do, and still have time for a life. I think this is key for those who are going into medicine. There are a lot of unhappy doctors out there, and I don't blame them, it's tough these days. I also don't think that it's that easy to make it out in the real world. But I think people in medicine tend to complain more than others because we have higher expectations from our careers -- we long for the days when doctors were respected and well paid. I think it is this expectation that brings a lot of dissapointment when people enter the real world of medicine.

 

[Elysium]

I've been reading this thread since the beginning, and I have to say, I still laugh out loud when I read comments from pre-meds. If you haven't even started your first day of med school, your 2 cents mean jacksh1t. Who the hell cares about your feelings about medicine? No one. You're just another lay person on the street with zero perspective. I finished my first year and I felt weird about posting. How the hell do you know if it's worth it until you're at least nearly done with med school? My own half baked opinion is that med school and being a doctor aren't as important as I thought they were when I first started my post-bacc 6 years ago, at 25. At this point I'm definetly looking more towards wanting a family and stability, and not spending 100 hours on the wards fooling with heroin addicts that come to the ED so that you can start an IV line on them (so they can then escape from the hospital to inject more heroin and then come back with sepsis and cellulitis). Listen, people out there don't really don't give 2 sh1ts in hell because you're a precious MD. Write me a rx or I'll sue your ass. Give me this, do this, fill this out. I'm watching my boyfriend go through fourth year, I've seen my dad's career. It ain't all pretty. I'm just tired of effusive pre-meds with stars in their eyes telling fourth years and residents how it is. Give me a goddamned break. Come back in a few years. Your opinion then has a modicum of validity.

 

[Blade28]

Blunt, but well-said. I'm doing my ER rotation at the busy county hospital now - and I have an extremely high tolerance level, but the patients are just beating me down.

 

[PoorMD]

Come back in a few years. Your opinion then has a modicum of validity.

The point is, "Would you do it over agan" ? Several people on this thread posted about switching to engineering instead of medicine if they had a second chance. I have experience in that field (B.S. in Chemical Engineering followed by several years working in chemical industry) that many likely have never known about or ever will. SO my viewpoint is useful for comparing "is it really greener on the other side?"

That being said, You should have more respect for people with intellectual backgrounds that you don't understand; Sounds like a typical daughter of a Doctor, typical snob (whether you're an MS2 or pre-med, without work experience you are basically equivalent). Most anyone in professional society would agree that your bad attitude is going to get you nowhere.. You might look at Radiology during your fourth yr electives, do us all a favor and don't come out of diagnostic CTs.

PoorMD

 

[DD214_DOC]

I'm not a med anything yet, but I do have experience on the supposed, "greener" side of life. I can tell you from experience, it isn't easy over here either. Myself and all of my friends who graduated, with degrees in different things, couldn't find a job. I've worked in heating and air as a general laborer, I've worked as a CSR for a DSL company, and I've done dog grooming -- all of this after earning my degree.

The only real career-type job I have been offered is in probation and parole, where I would have had a caseload of almost 200 offenders to manage, scheduled 24/7 call in which I couldn't leave the county or go on vacation, interstate travel to transport parolees, serving on very dangerous warrant arrest teams, and the stress of not only managing my caseload but working with people who don't really like me and may have just gotten out of a 20-year sentence for murder. All of this for $26,000 a year.

Not everyone becomes a lab manager or millionaire within 6 years of graduating from college as some of you seem to think. You probably also don't see the background lives of your college buddies, struggling to pay their bills while smiling and saying how great their lives are.

 

[daelroy]

Those who say it's not worth it are usually people who went straight to medical school after colllege and have never worked fulltime in a non-medical related job for years. They have a false impression the grass is greener on the other side. No, it's not easy to just become an investment banker or an attorney out of college and make 6 figures the rest of your life. The reality is that most investment bankers never make it to the senior associate level or the VP level which is what you see on television. Most I-bankers eventually get layed off at the analyst level, which is the level they get hired at after college. They might work a year or two making a little over a 100K but then those are the first groups to get canned. These people then often flee to business school because they can't find another I-banking job that will take them.

The average salary for attorneys nationwide is 60K. The majority of attorneys do not get hired by large corporate firms and start at 120K. Many of the start at 30K and the vast majority start at salaries between 50-60K. And even the ones who start at 120K for Latham and Watkins or another large firm never make partner and are asked to leave the firm after 5 years. This is the harsh reality of the business and law world. It's not cake like you think. You can't just attend any law school or business school and succeed like you can with medical school. Your school name plays a big role in your career. Some will attend Average Law School, graduate at the top of their class and get hired by a large firm and defy the odds and make partner. But this scenario would be equivalent to a Caribbean medical student getting a radiology position at Mayo. Yes, it happens occassionally but it's not the rule.

Then let's discuss the computer myth. Yes, yes, we know the story. Your buddy graduated with a degree in computer science and started at 80K. Did you also know your buddy got layed off and his job was outsourced to India and now he is working for another software firm earning just slightly above half of what he earned?

I only raised the examples of investment bankers, lawyers and IT professionals because these are the jobs disgruntled physicians would have taken and made millions while working far less hard. I can't tell you how many family members tell me that I was smart to go back to medical school. These family members are former I-bankers, attorneys and consultants who are now looking for jobs in their 40's. All of them graduated from Ivy league colleges (1 Harvard, 3 Princeton and 2 Dartmouth grads). Yes, that's the reality facing the current job market. Yes, I have two friends who are earning a lot of money and never got their graduate degree. They work extremely hard but were extremely lucky as well. One of them is a realtor who started in the mid-1990's in Las Vegas when the boom hit. Another one of them was a person who started working for Microsoft in 1991 and sold his shares in the company in 2000. Again, he was pretty darn lucky too. He grew up in Seattle and was recruited from the University of Washington. Back then, Microsoft was practically begging for people to join them; he had very average grades and was not a stellar student by any means.

 

[DD214_DOC]

I agree. The current market is absolutely horrible. I can see that if I am ever admitted to med school, I sure as hell will appreciate the opporuntity because of my past experiences.

Yes, busting doors down and throwing some scum on the ground with my gun pointed as his head would be pretty damn cool. However, skipping a credit card payment that's due so my wife and I can eat isn't.

 

[DD214_DOC]

That's the biggest problem with medical school admissions. They take these people whose life for the past 4 years has been to study and get into med school. When they're finally in, they don't have as much of an appreciation for it as those of us who have had to struggle to get there.

And no, studying all night for an ochem test isn't struggling. I do things like that now on top of working.

 

[daelroy]

We're beating this issue to death, but it's kind of fun and somewhat important for those who are contemplating going to med school. The medical profession is diverse, with many opportunities and challenges. I'm a PGY2 at at a so called top 10 IM program. If I had the chance, I would leave the profession today. It's just not worth it, especially not IM. The worst mistake of my life was to chose this specialty.

This is because you are a PGY2. Your attitude might change when you are out in practice. The internist I saw 2 weeks ago loves his job. He says he gets paid to shoot the breeze with patients. His nurses do all the workup while he simply comes in and reads my results and chatted with me. He is a relatively young physician as well that is doing extremely well. Everyone knows the IM residency is probably one of the most difficult residencies one could experience but post-residency is a lot different.

 

[daelroy]

"This year my medical malpractice premium has gone up 100 percent and my employee heath insurance costs 25 percent; my rent increased every year, and oh yes, my medical supplies, postage, you name it, also keep going up. I can no longer afford to provide pnumococcal vaccine for my patients becuase I am charged $25 a dose for the vaccine, and Medicare reimburses me only $18. I have nipped and tucked everywhere I can and I will still be taking a pay cut (as I have for the last 6 years) just to keep my office doors open.

"Unlike other businesses, I cannot pass my increased operating costs along. My reimbursments are fixed. I may not be able to afford to practice medicine at all much longer. let alone practice with luxuries like an EHR. Rather than upgrade my system to acomodate the "new and improved" version of my EHR, I will likely have to dump the whole thing and go back to pen and paper. We have a serious crisis going on in the health care industry right now without needing to add stress or finiancial liability of electronic carpetbagging"

Funny because I was reading the Vault.com(that's a messageboard for attorneys, investment bankers and consultants) and many of those professionals were discussing how amazing the field of medicine is.

Unlike other businesses, medicine is the only field that keeps it's supply artificially low so that salaries and income can remain high. It's funny that it took a couple of MBA grads as opposed to physicians to make this distinction. This is why you don't see a list of 6th tier medical schools like you do with business and law schools. That's an excellent point. You don't see the University of Phoenix offerring an M.D. You can't just randomly set up an M.D. school on U.S. soil wherever you like as you can with MBA and J.D. programs and have it accredited and respected. Even among the Caribbean schools, only 3 are truly respected and reliable and they have been around for nearly 30 years.

Another excellent point they raised is the relocation flexibility physicians have. This consultant on Vault lives in San Francisco. He was layed off and was seeking work elsewhere. For the type of programming that he does, he is essentially limited to a fixed number of cities with companies that utilize his technology. In others words, he can't just move to small town, U.S.A and set up his practice where the demand is huge and earn far more than the average salary of his specialty. With medicine, if you don't like your malpractice rates, MOVE...you don't have to live in Florida or some other litigious county. If you are barely earning 130K as a family practioner...MOVE...there are plenty of small towns and cities that would beg for your services and you could earn twice to three times the amount you would in a large city. There are plenty of places in the United States that offer low malpractice premiums and a population that has a strong demand for your services. Unlike an I-banker, you are not limited to NYC, Chicago, SF, LA and Dallas. You can live in a 10,000 population town and earn a comfortable living and have an extremely low cost of living. Trying telling a Harvard Law graduate that he can move to Smith, Nebraska and earn twice as much as he could in Boston with half the cost of living. You can't tell a guy who was just layed off from Microsoft that he can move to a dinky town and earn more than he did working in Seattle. Forget 10,000 population towns, how about 100,000 population cities. There are plenty of cities like that which are hurting for doctors but the problem is all physicians want to work and live in trendy areas. Awww poor baby, you live in Dade County, Florida and you deal with cutthroat lawyers.... or Woe is me, I live in Southern California and I have to deal with managed care all the time...boo hoo

Nice little change in perspective huh?

 

[daelroy]

That's the biggest problem with medical school admissions. They take these people whose life for the past 4 years has been to study and get into med school. When they're finally in, they don't have as much of an appreciation for it as those of us who have had to struggle to get there.

And no, studying all night for an ochem test isn't struggling. I do things like that now on top of working.

Medical schools need to do what business schools do: require 2-3 years of work experience before matriculating. If pre-meds got to work in in a full-time position in the business world, they will appreciate medicine much more than they do now. They can see how common and regular it is for well qualified people to get layed off and looking for jobs. It's not like in medicine where you join a group, become partner and finish your career there. With business and law, people are looking for work every 3 to 4 years and constantly relocating and traveling.

 

[PoorMD]

Awww poor baby, you live in Dade County, Florida and you deal with cutthroat lawyers.... or Woe is me, I live in Southern California and I have to deal with managed care all the time...boo hoo

Nice little change in perspective huh?

Good point. However, Medicare reimbursments are affecting everyone-- whether they are in McCook, Nebraska, New York City or Charleston, WV.
I know a physician in a mid-sized Houston suberb who no longer accepts medicare or Optimum choice HMO's for payment! He is doing quite well I might add.

PoorMD

 

[Eyesore]

HI
I was just wondering how you residents feel about this, would you do it over again
thanks

Why would anyone in their right mind want to do this twice?!!!?!!! 😀 😛

 

[Ross434]

I agree. The current market is absolutely horrible. I can see that if I am ever admitted to med school, I sure as hell will appreciate the opporuntity because of my past experiences.

Yes, busting doors down and throwing some scum on the ground with my gun pointed as his head would be pretty damn cool. However, skipping a credit card payment that's due so my wife and I can eat isn't.

JKDMed, just curious, What did you do In HVAC ? I work at an HVAC contractor. Also, maybe some job markets for computers, science, lawyers are sucking, but others are booming (manufacturing, construction, nursing) Fields where everyone thinks they can make money turn you into a dime-a-dozen employee. But if you have truly specialized skills in a niche field you can have a pretty secure living. I dont know anyone in engineering who has been laid off, but they're all in construction. They're not offshoring those jobs.

 

[DD214_DOC]

JKDMed, just curious, What did you do In HVAC ? I work at an HVAC contractor. Also, maybe some job markets for computers, science, lawyers are sucking, but others are booming (manufacturing, construction, nursing) Fields where everyone thinks they can make money turn you into a dime-a-dozen employee. But if you have truly specialized skills in a niche field you can have a pretty secure living. I dont know anyone in engineering who has been laid off, but they're all in construction. They're not offshoring those jobs.

I did general labor mostly with the installation of residential units and a crapload of service calls. HVAC work in the summer here in South Carolina is almost unbearable!

 

[lexrageorge]

I've been reading this thread since the beginning, and I have to say, I still laugh out loud when I read comments from pre-meds. If you haven't even started your first day of med school, your 2 cents mean jacksh1t. Who the hell cares about your feelings about medicine? No one. You're just another lay person on the street with zero perspective. I finished my first year and I felt weird about posting. How the hell do you know if it's worth it until you're at least nearly done with med school? My own half baked opinion is that med school and being a doctor aren't as important as I thought they were when I first started my post-bacc 6 years ago, at 25. At this point I'm definetly looking more towards wanting a family and stability, and not spending 100 hours on the wards fooling with heroin addicts that come to the ED so that you can start an IV line on them (so they can then escape from the hospital to inject more heroin and then come back with sepsis and cellulitis). Listen, people out there don't really don't give 2 sh1ts in hell because you're a precious MD. Write me a rx or I'll sue your ass. Give me this, do this, fill this out. I'm watching my boyfriend go through fourth year, I've seen my dad's career. It ain't all pretty. I'm just tired of effusive pre-meds with stars in their eyes telling fourth years and residents how it is. Give me a goddamned break. Come back in a few years. Your opinion then has a modicum of validity.

I certainly cannot comment on what it is like treating drug addicts. I am not in med school yet, and I must admit that that is one aspect that gives me pause. But,...

I am sick of all these posts that say law and investment banking are the way to go. These posts are from med students or residents that have NO idea what those fields are truly like. Yes, everyone knows someone who did very, very well as a banker, lawyer, real estate mogul, etc. Yes, these can be lucrative fields. But, the best opportunities in these fields are restricted to those that graduate from the best (Top 10 or so) law or business schools, and those that are near the top 10-20% of their class. Also, useless factors such as family pedigree, undergraduate college, prep school education and how well one performs on invalid and irrelevant personality tests are considered by hiring managers in these fields. Outsiders need not apply.

Fact: if you go to med school, you will become a doctor, and you will do well financially. Some physicians do extremely well, but these are a minority. And you will have job security (which you will NEVER have in I-Banking). Of course, none of that matters if you don't like practicing medicine.

Finally, if you don't like reading posts from premeds, you can either ignore them, or simply ignore these forums altogether. I personally don't care what your boyfriend and your father went through; that is just as irrelevant to the discussion.